@ Bernimoore,

John fell at the angel's feet to worship him. Even though it was wrong but that verse shows 'falling prostrate' as a sign of worship...but you reject it in the case of Joshua, just because you want to blame only Catholics.

My point is, if you exclude 'falling prostrate' as a sign of worship, you are contradicting the Bible, because it is.

...And if you include it as a sign of worship, then Joshua worshipped.

So that should show you that there is something very defective about your logic and reasoning on this matter.

The missing link there is your INTENTION.

Its not possible to worship anything without INTENDING to worship it.

That's why the Bible says we should worship God in truth and spirit. If you bow or crawl or sommersault and your mind is not there, you are not worshipping God.

Same goes for any other gods or things.

That's why God didn't rebuke Joshua, because he clearly knew who he was worshipping even though he was falling prostrate before the Ark.

That's why the angel rebuked John because he clearly intended "to worship" the angel.

That's why there's nothing wrong with what we Catholics do, because, we know clearly who our God is and who we give all glory to and who we direct all our prayers to.

...And nobody is qualified to tell us what our INTENTIONS are as no one can see another's heart. Only we can tell you what we do.

Lie down to...sleep, rest etc
bend down to...pick, clean etc
fall down to...worship

there is a falling down and there is a 'to worship' about to take place and there is a rejection of the worship about to take place.

When God told the Israelites not to make image and bow to it, He knew they know He is their God.

Its either you follow God or you follow your Pope.

Boomark: Lie down to...sleep, rest etc
bend down to...pick, clean etc
fall down to...worship

there is a falling down and there is a 'to worship' about to take place and there is a rejection of the worship about to take place.

When God told the Israelites not to make image and bow to it, He knew they know He is their God.

Its either you follow God or you follow your Pope.

Ol man please stop been mischievious and address his points

chukwudi44:

Ol man please stop been mischievious and address his points

My explanations are very clear. That is why i did it in parts.

One has the right to choose between what God has commanded and what the Pope has commanded. It is a choice God allowed people to make.

Where did God command anyone not to make images and what gives you the impression it was the pope that commanded the use of images?

chukwudi44: Where did God command anyone not to make images and what gives you the impression it was the pope that commanded the use of images?

Don't you read your bible? Is bulletin now more important than your bible.

God commanded that you not to make an image of anything whether in HEAVEN or on earth and bow to it. He knows why He gave that commandment but you don't. Why not obey it.

Except He instructs you to make a bronze snake like He told Moses.
Except He instructs you to make a the ark of covenant like He told Moses.
All these things are made the way He wants them to be. Do not neglect His commandments while waiting for His instructions. Those who follow these things this way are His obedient children.

Boomark:

Don't you read your bible? Is bulletin now more important than your bible.

God commanded that you not to make an image of anything whether in HEAVEN or on earth and bow to it. He knows why He gave that commandment but you don't. Why not obey it.

Except He instructs you to make a bronze snake like He told Moses.
Except He instructs you to make a the ark of covenant like He told Moses.
All these things are made the way He wants them to be. Do not neglect His commandments while waiting for His instructions. Those who follow these things this way are His obedient children.

Which bible are you reading? You even seem to contradict yourself ."Do not make any image unless God asks you to " this is quite ridiculous.So in essense images might be accepted by God in one instant and become sinful in the next how illogical.

What the bible teaches is the one should not make IDOL of anything and not images.Idols are images that are worshipped and that is why moses was instructed to make an image of the bronze serpent because it was not to be worshipped and hence not an idol,also Aaron and the children of isreal were punished because they made and worshipped the golden calf.

Please stop adding to the bible and stop forcing your own opinions on others

New International Version
(©1984)
"You shall not make for
yourself an idol in the
form of anything in
heaven above or on the
earth beneath or in the
waters below.

New Living Translation
(©2007)
"You must not make for
yourself an idol of any
kind or an image of
anything in the heavens
or on the earth or in the
sea.

English Standard Version
(©2001)
“You shall not make for
yourself a carved image,
or any likeness of
anything that is in heaven
above, or that is in the
earth beneath, or that is
in the water under the
earth.

New American Standard
Bible (©1995)
"You shall not make for
yourself an idol, or any
likeness of what is in
heaven above or on the
earth beneath or in the
water under the earth.

King James Bible
(Cambridge Ed.)
Thou shalt not make unto
thee any graven image, or
any likeness of any thing
that is in heaven above, or
that is in the earth
beneath, or that is in the
water under the earth:

GOD'S WORD® Translation
(©1995)
Never make your own
carved idols or statues
that represent any
creature in the sky, on the
earth, or in the water.

King James 2000 Bible
(©2003)
You shall not make unto
yourself any graven
image, or any likeness of
any thing that is in
heaven above, or that is in
the earth beneath, or that
is in the water under the
earth:

American King James
Version
You shall not make to you
any graven image, or any
likeness of any thing that
is in heaven above, or that
is in the earth beneath, or
that is in the water under
the earth.

So you are now free to tell God that He contradicted Himselve. Make sure you tell Him o.

Idol looks like breeze and not an image of anything that exist.

Then every sculptor and painter is an idol worshipper.

Anybody who buys their art-work is an idol worshipper.

Anybody who uses his camera to take images of anything is an idol worshipper.

Mr Boomark Sir,

Do you have an image of youself or anyone else on your phone or lap?

(Don't tell me long story o, just answer YES or NO)

If this is truely what you believe then your fight should not just be against only catholics but also against all artists,sculptors,photograpers,photo scanners and indeed everyone who patronise them since they all produce images.

You really sound pathetic!! You are even implying God is a hypocrite by going against his own commandments

[quote author=BERNIMOORE ,or just use anything mentioned in the bible to cover up,i.e, using the desperate action of joshua which God did not command in anyway,and unneccesary felling on his face which he would have saved himself had it been joshua followed God instruction and not act on his own,his fallen down before the ark is uncalled for in the first place,and even a dissobedience to God because God never commanded that,but instead of you to even understand the story, what you are interested in is ''the unwarranted prostration of joshua before the ark in disobedient'' what a shame! do we learn from obedient way or the disobedient way? i challenge you, are you guys been taught Gods word as it appeared in the scriptures or adulterated? know that you cant fool God,'obedient is better than sacrifice' samuel said. [/quote] u have started talking stories again, is the socalled "unwarranted prostration of joshua b4 d ark" idolatry Is it idolatry yes or no stop telling stories!

@ubenedictus
see your life! in the first place,are you italo? italo ask me a question and i have answered him, he seems to get the point,and im not surprised that you are pained to the fact that i exposed the error of using the ''unwarranted prostration of joshua before the ark in disobedient''as your reason to clearly violate Gods law by making images of mary,something he did not command. and obviously if there is a shame,i think should go and cover your face due to the fact that your religion has been exposed!


that is the 'bait' italo wanted to use,and it failed him,as it exposes his reason for mary's image!

the joy here is that i have expose the reason behind it,and it does not help your case but even ridicule the reason for your mary's image because it is''unwarranted prostration of joshua before the ark in disobedient''. only a fool will read the story and still bother to give a yes or no.

u are still dodging d question, is the "unwarranted prostration of joshua" idolatry?? Yes or no
if u cant answer then shame on you!

see your life here again!
why cant you quote the chapter and verse in the book of acts? where “Virgin Mary” mary is mentioned,again you are embarrased and i challenge you to quote it, ''virgin Mary''.

so you need to see "virgin mary" befor you know that "the moda of the lord" is refering to mary abi? U have started ur mental gymnastics

read these again! you have not denied them;
“HAIL, HOLY QUEEN, Mother of Mercy, our life, our sweetness and our hope! To thee do we cry, poor banished children of Eve; to thee do we send up our sighs, mourning and weeping in this valley of tears.

[size=18pt]“Sustain us, O Virgin Mary,[/size] on our journey of faith and obtain for us the grace of eternal salvation.”

again in d above i saw the words "obtain for us" that is an intercessory prayer. Besides u have been dodging my question, did joshua commit idolatry

see your desperation, what of the last book of the bible see the warning pop-up again;
Revelation 22:18-19

18 For[a] I testify to everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this book: If anyone adds to these things, God will add to him the plagues that are written in this book; 19 and if anyone takes away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part from the Book[d] of Life, from the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.

again that passage is talking about revelation, d bible wasn't compiled wen revelation was written. Ha! Na wa for u!

i think you need to read and read well,im making a case for 'sacred scriptures' and again is Maccabee part of the sacred scriptures? yes it is a scripture,but was is a sacred scripture? stop evading questions!

this is a silly ant outrageous claim, the early xtians who compiled d bible clearly accepted macabees as part of sacred scripture just as they accepted genesis and matthew! The question is: is macabees included in d christian scripture
U jumped d links i provided and claim a blind eye.

you know that you are toiling the embarrasing way of our discussion on trinity,if you can remenber until you got y'slf embarrased completely! until a catholic like you told you to hands off! that trinity was 'not defended in the bible' you thanked him and left,isnt it, now you are toiling that path!

please can you provide that thread, you are now a serial liar!!! Ihend. (he isnt a catholic) was d guy who came along and told me that there is no way of arguing with a f.o.o.l. Provide d thread so i can convict u of ur lies!

Boomark: Lie down to...sleep, rest etc
bend down to...pick, clean etc
fall down to...worship

there is a falling down and there is a 'to worship' about to take place and there is a rejection of the worship about to take place.

When God told the Israelites not to make image and bow to it, He knew they know He is their God.

Its either you follow God or you follow your Pope.

and joshua fell down and prostrated before d ark abi?

Scriptures no yan say; Make we chant prayers like incantation, Mary na the mediator between Jesus and man, FYI, we end prayers in Jesus name because He is the mediator between God and man. And purgatory, are you kidding me, after death is what? Judgement for goodness sake. abi na lie i talk?

vickyO: Scriptures no yan say; Make we chant prayers like incantation, Mary na the mediator between Jesus and man, FYI, we end prayers in Jesus name because He is the mediator between God and man. And purgatory, are you kidding me, after death is what? Judgement for goodness sake. abi na lie i talk?

anty many of weytin u talk no concern me, mary no b mediator of d covenant o!

Ubenedictus: and joshua fell down and prostrated before d ark abi?

He is an idol worshipper don't mind them. The law is clear, do not make or prostrate before an image. So Joshua sinned.

chukwudi44: If this is truely what you believe then your fight should not just be against only catholics but also against all artists,sculptors,photograpers,photo scanners and indeed everyone who patronise them since they all produce images.

You really sound pathetic!! You are even implying God is a hypocrite by going against his own commandments

Did you ask Him the question?

Also ask Him why He gave us command not to make an image of anything and bow to it but letter told Moses to make image of a snake that the Israelites looked unto?

italo: Then every sculptor and painter is an idol worshipper.

Anybody who buys their art-work is an idol worshipper.

Anybody who uses his camera to take images of anything is an idol worshipper.

Mr Boomark Sir,

Do you have an image of youself or anyone else on your phone or lap?

(Don't tell me long story o, just answer YES or NO)

Yes.

I will start by deleting them. We can live without those things. Make sure you destroy and burn to ashes those one you bow to in your church and at home..,they are all idols and images. I hope you agree with me?

Ubenedictus: anty many of weytin u talk no concern me, mary no b mediator of d covenant o!

why do yall ask her to help you obtain eternal salvation which can be gotten from one's believe in Christ. Arent you placing on her the role of a mediator?(begging Christ on man's behalf)

vickyO: why do yall ask her to help you obtain eternal salvation which can be gotten from one's believe in Christ. Arent you placing on her the role of a mediator?(begging Christ on man's behalf)

You mean they even ask her to do that for them??...

Please just give me a quote...I need to see it so that we can end this discussion with them....

Please vicky O....

ijawkid:

You mean they even ask her to do that for them??...

Please just give me a quote...I need to see it so that we can end this discussion with them....

Please vicky O....

Yes nah! That's what they usually do. When they finish praying, they ask Mary to take their prayers to her Son (Jesus). Na Mary be mediator between them & Jesus. *Smh* That's how one of my Catholic friend prays; I have witnessed it!

To them, Mary is the mediator since Christ is Yahweh

@ijawkid

it is not a new thing,

and it is contained in the

THE MARIAN PRAYER OF
POPE JOHN-PAUL II

Sustain us, O Virgin Mary, on our journey of faith
and obtain for us the grace of eternal salvation.
O clement, O loving, O sweet Mother of God
and our Mother, Mary!

see one of the links; i can supply other links too
http://prayers.viarosa.com/Prayers2BlessedVirginMary.html

this raise some questions demanding a honest and unedited answer!

Since Our Lady of Fatima (the Virgin Mary) asserts an equivalent position to Christ with respect to mediating salvation, we have a problem on our hands since 1 Timothy 2:5 together with Hebrews 7:23-25, Acts 4:11-12 and John 14:6 clearly and unequivocally state that Jesus Christ is the eternal and sole mediator who can save us and that he is the only way to the Father. Can the Virgin Mary have any possible rivaling salvaging role that also happens to be supported by scripture? No, it doesn’t… because salvation is a business done by Jesus and Jesus only.

sacred Scriptures leaves no room for doubt or compromise.

these are written in black and white,and with the internet,it is easier to asses catholic sites,new advent and even the CD rom which i have, but unfortunately they deny,because they are told to do so,thats pathethic.

vickyO: why do yall ask her to help you obtain eternal salvation which can be gotten from one's believe in Christ. Arent you placing on her the role of a mediator?(begging Christ on man's behalf)

And also without Pope there is no salvation.

@ijawkid, bernimoore's posted the citation which was made by pope john paul 2.

vickyO: @ijawkid, bernimoore's posted the citation which was made by pope john paul 2.

I dey see am o.....

SMH.!!!!!!....

Its crazy.........

I'll have to stop arguing with catholics.....I've never seen a set of people who see glaring scriptural truths and facts but obstinately choose to hold on to traditions as the catholics do...........
____________________

BERNIMOORE: @ijawkid

it is not a new thing,

and it is contained in the

THE MARIAN PRAYER OF
POPE JOHN-PAUL II



see one of the links; i can supply other links too
http://prayers.viarosa.com/Prayers2BlessedVirginMary.html

this raise some questions demanding a honest and unedited answer!

Since Our Lady of Fatima (the Virgin Mary) asserts an equivalent position to Christ with respect to mediating salvation, we have a problem on our hands since 1 Timothy 2:5 together with Hebrews 7:23-25, Acts 4:11-12 and John 14:6 clearly and unequivocally state that Jesus Christ is the eternal and sole mediator who can save us and that he is the only way to the Father. Can the Virgin Mary have any possible rivaling salvaging role that also happens to be supported by scripture? No, it doesn’t… because salvation is a business done by Jesus and Jesus only.

sacred Scriptures leaves no room for doubt or compromise.

these are written in black and white,and with the internet,it is easier to asses catholic sites,new advent and even the CD rom which i have, but unfortunately they deny,because they are told to do so,thats pathethic.

Benimoore thanks for the INFO.....

I SMH for them....

@italo

John fell at the angel's feet to worship him. Even though it was wrong but that verse shows 'falling prostrate' as a sign of worship...but you reject it in the case of Joshua, just because you want to blame only Catholics.

lets Thank God that you aknowledge that it is wrong to worship even an angel,and it is because the angel bluntly reject the gesture,not only that!the angel humbles himself to tell john that ''im a fellow servant like you''he then directs john to give the worship to the rightfull person;God!and not through any other source tallkless of images that are made with woods,carved by a sculptor,and what happens to the remains of the woods carved? they are burned away in fire or may be used to cook even used to roast maize or suya! had it been that this passage was not recorded,dont you see that a religion can follow suit in making image of an angel and 'fell prostrate'as you put it,and they will tell u or claim that they are not worshiping the angel,but God!

Now let me ask you, if Mary who is not an angel,but a lower creation;human could turn back to real human and saw all the prayers made in her name,prostrations and kneeling down,kissing of her feet,dont you think that she will also say what the angel said; 'im only a blessed woman among the blessed, worship God' (smile) just imagine that for once, there is 99 per cent chance that she will.

unfortunately while mary was alive nobody worshiped her or direct it through her,even peter whom you catholics said was the first pope never prostrated or bow for mary even while she was alive because peter too was around,with jesus, so,why does he not praise and adore Mary in the same vein as other popes? not even mentioned in his letter (1st and 2nd peter)? Must mary rebuke the pope today like the angel did to john before you know that directing worship to God in the manner he commanded is the right thing,and not what we feel?

.but you reject it in the case of Joshua, just because you want to blame only Catholics.

you still dont get it! the point is that do you learn from the johns case? you are more concerned with definations but you forgot that you have ceeded the right to supply the defination to me in the first place? see my defination in full again;

''act of worship demands 'bowing or making supplications' as the catholics do to their Mary statue''

My point is, if you exclude 'falling prostrate' as a sign of worship, you are contradicting the Bible, because it is.

...And if you include it as a sign of worship, then Joshua worshipped.

so since it is mine defination,i have the exclusive unchallenged right to reject 'prostrate' because it wasnt captured in both my defination, and your quote in (joshua 7:6-9)maybe you wanted to trap me,by telling me to supply defination first,just the way some had fallen into the trap,but you lost the right to later fix 'prostrate'in my defination because you relied on my defination, i knew beforehand,and still dared you,and still very consistent.ok?

Again can we compare the case of joshua with the catholics? it is not only bowing or 'fell prostrate alone that suggest worship,but what is communicated can lead us or show us really who the supplications revered,[/b]and that brings us to my defination relied on again,'bowing or making [b]supplications' as the catholics do to their Mary statue'' having settle with bowing above,we move to supplications!

did joshua supplicate by mentioning the ark? or even mention the cherubs contained in the ark by name? lets see;
. 7 And Joshua said, “Alas, Sovereign Lord, why did you ever bring this people across the Jordan to deliver us into the hands of the Amorites to destroy us? If only we had been content to stay on the other side of the Jordan! 8 Pardon your servant, Lord. What can I say, now that Israel has been routed by its enemies? 9 The Canaanites and the other people of the country will hear about this and they will surround us and wipe out our name from the earth. What then will you do for your own great name?”
no mention of any other person here in the suplication by joshua exept 'Sovereign Lord'.

now can we compare it to what pope did in the shrine built for mary and still conclude that it is the same? lets see who was been revered;

Pope John Paul made more than 40 pilgrimages to her shrines at Lourdes and Fatima. He wrote in his Apostolic Letter of Oct. 16, 2002, the following words:

“I entrust this Apostolic Letter to the loving hands of the Virgin Mary, prostrating myself in spirit before her image in the splendid Shrine built for her by Blessed Bartolo Longo, the apostle of the Rosary.”

or this;
The Glories of Mary by Alphonsus de Liguori explicitly mentions Marian worship in the fifth stanza of the hymn, “Mary, Virgin of Virgins” (page 589).
[size=14pt]“Queen thou art, whom all things worship,
Earth and hell, and heaven above;
But thy heart o'erflows with goodness,
Just and sinners feel thy love.”[/size]
http://willingshepherds.org/Aspirations%20to%20Mary.htm

and to cap it all,
Embroidered inside all of Pope John Paul’s robes was the phrase, “Totus tuus sum Maria,” which means, “Mary, I am all yours.”

who is deceiving who? while joshua did not mention the ark while prostrating? or even mention the cherubs contained in the ark by name by sendin them to convey any message as we can see, the catholic's own na oversabi abi wetin, no other name than idol worship,and that is how i got my defination earlier.

so no sentiments,i expect you to deny,thats what you are coached to do,but overwhelming facts proved you otherwise.

seriallink:

Yes nah! That's what they usually do. When they finish praying, they ask Mary to take their prayers to her Son (Jesus). Na Mary be mediator between them & Jesus. *Smh* That's how one of my Catholic friend prays; I have witnessed it!

To them, Mary is the mediator since Christ is Yahweh

Exactly na....

That's what I've been trying to explain...

The rationale behind mary being a medium through which they pray and expect salvation is because they have flung Yahweh into the dustbin and made Jesus the almighty......

Now that is exactly what happens when the trinity is taught and gulped........

When many equate Jesus to Yahweh then it means we have to look for a substitute mediator and high priest....and I think mary is doing just that for them....in there dreams I mean.....:-)

[/color][quote][/quote][color=#770077] ȋ̝̊̅̄ need A̶̲̥̅̊ sincere catholi to ansa d question....why do U̶̲̥̅̊ bow to mary and pray with d rozary..? D ansa shuld be as simple as "it Ȋ̝̊̅§ because..........." Pls A̶̲̥̅̊ sincere catholi do this 4 M̶̲̥̅ε̲̣̣̣̥ ȋ̝̊̅̄ aint judging anyone plz God bless U̶̲̥̅̊ as U̶̲̥̅̊ do so

Una just wan dey ignorant. Berniemoore explain this thing wella so te me sef don get more back up to condemn the catholic mode of worship. Why don't you just accept the truth in humility and make ammends instead of sprouting baseless argument. Reason along with ya heads no let sentiments interfere..

@ijawkid

The rationale behind mary being a medium through which they pray and expect salvation is because they have flung Yahweh into the dustbin and made Jesus the almighty......

Now that is exactly what happens when the trinity is taught and gulped........

When many equate Jesus to Yahweh then it means we have to look for a substitute mediator and high priest....and I think mary is doing just that for them....in there dreams I mean.....:-)

but dont expect them to admit under no circumstance,they are stuck to logic from the innexperienced then they pray on such, but if you knock them off their base,they will resort to insults,or tell you to answer yes or no, or accuse you of stories! and not the real bible truth,but overwhelming proofs exposes all these!

Boomark:

Yes.

I will start by deleting them. We can live without those things. Make sure you destroy and burn to ashes those one you bow to in your church and at home..,they are all idols and images. I hope you agree with me?

I have never bowed to an image or idol...and I don't know any Catholic who has.

So you admit that you are an idol worshipper since you have or had images on your phone or laptop? Yes or No?

having exposed the baseless reason for mary's statue in the church or shrines, lets see the motive behind the statue,tagged 'modern idolatory! pagan culture,why must holy things be shared with pagan,thats the mess catholics are dragging xtianity to!

picture A below

Egypt, she was called Isis. In Crete, she was represented as a mother who made friendly contact with snakes. In Greece she was known as Demeter, and in Rome she was worshiped as Cybele, the Magna Mater (Great Mother), a mother goddess of Phrygian origin. There is practically no ancient culture that did not worship this type of deity.” ( The Myth of Mary, pp.74, 75)

picture B below

figure of Mary has been erroneously elevated to a goddess status by Roman Catholic theologians. She is known as the Queen of Heaven, Mother of God, Eternal Virgin, Queen of Peace, Our Mother, Lady of the Good Death, Co-mediatrix, and Blessed Mother. Thousands of shrines around the world commemorate her. Visions, apparitions, visitations, and channeled messages accompany the mystical experiences of her followers.
Cesar Vidal elaborates,
“The idea of the universal motherhood of Mary, which does not appear historically until the 11th century, has a much greater connection with paganism than with Scripture. The same can be said of the representation of Mary with the divine child. This concept was also unknown…in the first centuries of Christianity.
…it is especially significant that Mary worship, which we find in Catholicism and in the Eastern churches, does not stem at any point from biblical concepts, but from theabsorption of pagan theologies like those present in the myths of Isis, Demeter and Cybele.” ( The Myth of Mary, p. 86, 89)