Cassiel:

@Imhotep
No,i waz expecting a catholic to prove confession from the scriptures beyond reasonable doubt.I wanted something that would tell me,''Yes Cassiel, its accurate.You should confess only to a priest on saturdays''. And i did not get that.

@Cassiel
So what doubts do you have about this ->

John 20: 22-23

22 And when He had said this, He breathed on them and said to them, “Receive the Holy Spirit. 23 “If you forgive the sins of any, their sins have been forgiven them; if you retain the sins of any, they have been retained.”

---------------------------------------
Quoting from Paul to counter Jesus is bad scholarship. Paul could not have set out to contradict his Master who made him an apostle in the first place. Neither was Paul trying to interpret all the sayings of Jesus.

@Imhotep
Come on,we've been through this particular scripture already,remember?I told you that if you're using this scripture,then it means any born-again pastor having the Holy Spirit within him can forgive sins,and not priests only.Even a nun who has the Holy Spirit can forgive sins.What limits the apostolic power to priests only?And for the love of moses,why shouldn't i simply and quietly go to God and confess directly to Him as he has commanded in His word?Which was my question in the first place.

Cassiel:

@Imhotep
Come on,we've been through this particular scripture already,remember?I told you that if you're using this scripture,then it means any born-again pastor having the Holy Spirit within him can forgive sins,and not priests only.Even a nun who has the Holy Spirit can forgive sins.What limits the apostolic power to priests only?

@Cassiel
The same power that limits anybody from assembling ancient manuscripts of his/her own liking and declaring them to be scripture.

Cassiel:
And for the love of moses,why shouldn't i simply and quietly go to God and confess directly to Him as he has commanded in His word?Which was my question in the first place.

When/where did the catholic church say ---- thou shall never confess to God directly?

Do you remember how the mass starts -----> 'I confess to almighty God etc etc'



===============================================
The summary of my posting in this thread is
1) Jesus Christ did not write any book.
2) Jesus Christ set up THE Church and gave her certain authority.
3) The Church assembled and approved the Bible 393 years after the Resurrection of Jesus.
4) The Bible STANDS on the Authority of the Church.
5) It smacks of poor scholarship to use the Bible to fiercely attack THE Church's teachings.

@Imhotep
Yeah,i know how the mass starts.And my brother,that's not totally confessing to God.How many seconds does that take in the first place?When you want to confess to God,you go somewhere private.Its between you and Him afterall.You get on your knees.And with a contrite heart,you pour everything out to Him.Just like you would to your priest.You tell God about every sin,down to the last detail.Leave nothing out.I guess what the catholic church did was to play upon man's need for instant answers from God.Confess,and get a forgiven bill instantly,no need to wonder about anything.But God already took care of that.
1 John 1:9
If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness.
That scripture is referring to God,not a priest.
So please tell me where in the bible it says that priests alone can and should forgive sins?Or where at all it says priests should forgive sins?And don't tell me about priests being apostles,because priests alone cannot be apostles.
And one more thing,the pope.Who does he confess to?A priest?And if not to a priest but to God directly,why?Aren't all men equal in the sight of God?So why doesn't he go to a priest too?
Finally,the church should be based on the bible,not the other way round.

Cassiel:

@Imhotep
Yeah,i know how the mass starts.And my brother,that's not totally confessing to God.How many seconds does that take in the first place?When you want to confess to God,you go somewhere private.Its between you and Him afterall.You get on your knees.And with a contrite heart,you pour everything out to Him.Just like you would to your priest.You tell God about every sin,down to the last detail.Leave nothing out.I guess what the catholic church did was to play upon man's need for instant answers from God.Confess,and get a forgiven bill instantly,no need to wonder about anything.But God already took care of that.

Mass is a public prayer. If you are really there, then you should mean what you say.

Cassiel:
1 John 1:9
If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness.
That scripture is referring to God,not a priest.

John is right, but he does not contradict Jesus his Master.

Cassiel:
So please tell me where in the bible it says that priests alone can and should forgive sins?Or where at all it says priests should forgive sins?

The college of bishops is the successor of the disciples. The priests act with the permission/authority of the college of bishops. This is why the church is apostolic - descended from the apostles and not some rambo church sect.
The authority that Christ gave His disciples did not just vanish into thin air.

--These bishops also defined the doctrine of the Trinity (the word Trinity is not in the bible) which everyone believes so strongly today.
--These bishops also approved the bible which everyone crams and rants about.

Cassiel:
And don't tell me about priests being apostles,because priests alone cannot be apostles.
And one more thing,the pope.Who does he confess to?A priest?And if not to a priest but to God directly,why?Aren't all men equal in the sight of God?So why doesn't he go to a priest too?

@Cassiel
Tell me ==> why did you not baptize yourself


---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Catholics find the roots of their priesthood in the tradition of Melchizedek.
In Genesis 14:18, Melchizedek offers a sacrifice of bread and wine.

Christ therefore fulfilled the prophecy of Ps 110:4, that he would be a priest "after the order of Melchizedek," at the Last Supper, when he broke and shared bread with his disciples. Catholics take seriously Christ's command that the Apostles should "do this in memory of Me."

As such, the Church continues to offer sacrifices of bread and wine at Mass, as part of the sacrament of the Eucharist.

@Imhotep
You know one thing i've noticed about you?You're really good at either ignoring the issue at hand,evading it,or turning it in an entirely different direction.Guess that's why JeSoul had to wrap up her end of your conversation after making her points clear . You haven't addressed any of the things i said.You're countering them with others.Countering them in ways that aren't productive.I don't want us to repeat all we've gone through,especially you and JeSoul,because that's what we'll end up doing if i argue this out with you.So let's just leave it be.My question wasn't answered,meaning my earlier conviction has been strengthened,and you've got your beliefs too.So everybody's happy,right?

Cassiel:

@Imhotep
You know one thing i've noticed about you?You're really good at either ignoring the issue at hand,evading it,or turning it in an entirely different direction.Guess that's why JeSoul had to wrap up her end of your conversation after making her points clear . You haven't addressed any of the things i said.You're countering them with others.Countering them in ways that aren't productive.I don't want us to repeat all we've gone through,especially you and JeSoul,because that's what we'll end up doing if i argue this out with you.So let's just leave it be.My question wasn't answered,meaning my earlier conviction has been strengthened,and you've got your beliefs too.So everybody's happy,right?

@Cassiel
Its all good. But tell me, how do you settle for one of the 33,000 sects ? Rolling a dice

@Imhotep
You're a persistent person,lol Not rolling dice.I know what i want in a church,and when i find it,there you will find me.As for how i'll find it,which i'm sure is the next question you're going to ask me,i've got the Holy Spirit to direct me.So no worries about that.
You know Christianity is a way of life.And in the end,religion is a personal thing between you and your God.So serve Him whichever way works best for you,so long as its still in line with His divine will.

Cassiel:

@Imhotep
You're a persistent person,lol Not rolling dice.I know what i want in a church,and when i find it,there you will find me.As for how i'll find it,which i'm sure is the next question you're going to ask me,i've got the Holy Spirit to direct me.So no worries about that.
You know Christianity is a way of life.And in the end,religion is a personal thing between you and your God.So serve Him whichever way works best for you,so long as its still in line with His divine will.

@Cassiel
May God give you His Light as you search for Him.

Let me leave you with a parting quote from 1Timothy6:3-5

3 Whoever teaches something different and does not agree with the sound words of our Lord Jesus Christ and the religious teaching

4  is conceited, understanding nothing, and has a morbid disposition for arguments and verbal disputes. From these come envy, rivalry, insults, evil suspicions,

5  and mutual friction among people with corrupted minds, who are deprived of the truth, supposing religion to be a means of gain.

Lastly, please do not let anyone mislead you with poor biblical scholarship/exegesis.

@Imhotep
I'm not searching for Him dearie,i'v found him already.Now i'm in search of a church where i can serve Him best,and where i'll truly feel at home.There's a difference
And i leave the very same advice with you too-Don't let anyone deceive you with poor,misguided bible scholarship.Forget doctrine,its not going to count on the last day.Just live your life to please Him,ok?And keep studying your bible properly.Skip no verse that contradicts your church's teachings.In the end,its His Word that'll be the yardstick,not the teachings of any church. Peace

@JeSoul

"ah yes our John 20:22 verse that is used to support the notion priests can forgive sins:

First and above all if you were to say man/priests can forgive sins that would directly contradict tons of other scriptures that teach God alone forgives sins.

1 John 1:9
If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness.

Mark 11:25
And when you stand praying, if you hold anything against anyone, forgive him, so that your Father in heaven may forgive you your sins."

Ps 103:2 Praise the LORD, O my soul, and forget not all his benefits, who forgives all your sins and heals all your diseases

Micah 7:18
Who is a God like you, who pardons sin and forgives the transgression of the remnant of his inheritance? You do not stay angry forever but delight to show mercy.

Matthew 6:14
For if you forgive men when they sin against you, your heavenly Father will also forgive you. But if you do not forgive men their sins, your Father will not forgive your sins.

Secondly,
The verse does not say "roman catholic priests are hereby endowed with the authority to forgive sins".
How did the catholic church reach that conclusion and what gives them the power to say that its priests are the chosen ones that can forgive sins?

3. The apostles were not priests, they did not do any sacrificing or anything so no one can come here and say catholics are descended from the apostles.
Furthermore we have the book of acts were the first church grew and organized, we see no hint or evidence whatsoever of the saints confessing their sins to the apostles or church leaders.
If Jesus really gave them the power to forgive sins, how come they never exercised it? how come they never acknowledged it in any of their letters? gospels? in practice? meaning they were disobedient. Right?

4. Read in context the words of Jesus. He was giving over to His disciples the ministry of reconciliation, the message of God. They were to go out and preach. And if anyone accepted their message they were forgiven, if anyone didn't they weren't.
It's not saying the disciples were placed in charge in forgiving people of their sins, read the verse in context and try to understand what Jesus was really saying. He breathed on them in verse 22, significant of Him giving them His spirit and then he gave them their ministry - to preach the gospel.


There, this should shatter any misuse or misinterpretation of John 20:23"


Ok sir, on ur number 4 above u said it urself, that he gave them the power to forgive. He was giving over to his disciples the ministry of reconciliation, the message of God what about the part of whose sins u retain is retained them? Wouldn't that mean that the disciples could choose who could receive the message? Why would Christ say who u choose to not receive the message won't receive the message? Isn't the message supposed to be taken far and wide? Ur insinuating that the message is discriminatory.

at ur number 3, ur just grasping for air there mister, lol, but u are right that it doesn't say that Roman Catholics are endowed with the authority to forgive sins. But I pray thee, which of the disciples are alive today. If it is particularly only to the disciples wouldn't that mean that ur pastors are not meant to carry on the gospel, because it wasn't told to them. I shouldn't carry on the gospel either because it wasn't told to me directly and neither should u. So how about we sit and wait for the disciples. By the way I thought we are disciples of Christ.

I also notice that u pick and choose. U seem to forget the part about if u forgive men when they sin against u. Wouldn't that mean that we have the power to forgive? Are u telling me now that I shouldn't forgive? Because it clearly tells me that I should.

Like I told u before, it is by his grace. Without him we wouldn't be able to do anything. Unless u want to tell me that everything else we do is by our grace and not his, because it's all the same.

were you seriously trying to use those verses to say humans can forgive sins?
wow! what gross misuse and abuse of scripture! but I am not suprised, that is what the catholic church does on a regular basis.
First off my sister, make the distinction. There's sins we commit against other men, and then there's sins we commit against God. We can forgive each other when we wrong each other BUT we cannot forgive the sins committed against God!

Matthew 6:14
For if you forgive men when they sin against you, your heavenly Father will also forgive you. But if you do not forgive men their sins, your Father will not forgive your sins.

It's funny all the verses you quoted actually support the fact that it is God only that forgives sins:

1 John 1:9
If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness.

Mark 11:25
And when you stand praying, if you hold anything against anyone, forgive him, so that your Father in heaven may forgive you your sins."

Ps 103:2 Praise the LORD, O my soul, and forget not all His benefits, who forgives all your sins and heals all your diseases

Micah 7:18
Who is a God like you, who pardons sin and forgives the transgression of the remnant of his inheritance? You do not stay angry forever but delight to show mercy.

Ok sir, on your number 4 above u said it yourself, that he gave them the power to forgive.

NO! that is not what I said. I said he gave them the ministry of reconciliation, those are 2 very different things.

what about the part of whose sins u retain is retained them? Wouldn't that mean that the disciples could choose who could receive the message? Why would Christ say who u choose to not receive the message won't receive the message? Isn't the message supposed to be taken far and wide? your insinuating that the message is discriminatory.

lol. . . I'm not sure how in the world you attained such a false notion. Pls, re-read my post.

at your number 3, your just grasping for air there mister, lol, but u are right that it doesn't say that Roman Catholics are endowed with the authority to forgive sins. But I pray thee, which of the disciples are alive today. If it is particularly only to the disciples wouldn't that mean that your pastors are not meant to carry on the gospel, because it wasn't told to them. I shouldn't carry on the gospel either because it wasn't told to me directly and neither should u. So how about we sit and wait for the disciples. By the way I thought we are disciples of Christ.

I also notice that u pick and choose. You seem to forget the part about if u forgive men when they sin against u. Wouldn't that mean that we have the power to forgive? Are u telling me now that I shouldn't forgive? Because it clearly tells me that I should.

WOW!!! you're dancing around ur own feet. You're trying to read words and sayings into my words that are not there. Anyways anyone who's reading can see and judge for themselves.
pls just answer the simple question: Why does the catholic church and you ignore all the verses that teach God alone forgives sins? you're the one picking and choosing what you want! why do you ignore where (and you even quoted them above) we're told to confess only to God? why?
and you still claim that church stands on the authority of the bible? what nonsense!

This pratice is absolutely unjustifiable.

@Jesoul,Gamine

God chooses to forgive sins THROUGH the ministry of MEN. It is God that forgives.

James 5:14-15
14 Is anyone among you sick? He should summon the presbyters of the church, and they should pray over him and anoint (him) with oil in the name of the Lord,

15 and the prayer of faith will save the sick person, and the Lord will raise him up. If he has committed any sins, he will be forgiven.

Imhotep,

yes we know those scriptures.

But it isnt close to what the Catholics do.

I was Catholic, i know what im saying.

Gamine:
Insert Quote
Imhotep,

yes we know those scriptures.

But it isnt close to what the Catholics do.

I was Catholic, i know what im saying.

And what do the Catholics do?

It is compulsory to go the priests.

Where is a compulsion stated in the bible.

You will see people shaking,

"i havent gone for confession ooooo"

as if na baba Priest wey dey save pesin

Sorry, pardon my pidgin.

So the person confesses to the priest and what happens next
the persoon just goes on his way
Does it mean he is forgiven?

Besides the scripture you posted
Simply means that Forgiveness comes from God who
you are asking in faith to heal the person.
One has to be cleansed before healing can even take place sef.

These priessts what do they do
They tell the person to say ten hail marys and twenty our fathers
what kinda prayer is that.

No basis no basis at all.
i could keep going on
but spare me a moment pls.

@Gamine
Have you bothered to interpret this =>

James 5:14-15
14 Is anyone among you sick? He should summon the presbyters of the church, and they should pray over him and anoint (him) with oil in the name of the Lord,

15 and the prayer of faith will save the sick person, and the Lord will raise him up. If he has committed any sins, he will be forgiven.

Its either James is a big liar, or God forgives THROUGH the ministry of men. Choose one.

imhotep abeg stop doing the electric slide.
Gamine answered you PERFECTLY and you ignored what she said. The scripture in James like Gamine rightly pointed out does not say anything like it is the elders that will forgive the sins, or that the person should confess to the elders. . . pls read it slowly.
Sista Gamine abeg tell am well well!

Jesoul:
imhotep abeg stop doing the electric slide.
Gamine answered you PERFECTLY and you ignored what she said.

What she said is her pesonal opinion which she is entitled to.

Jesoul:
The scripture in James like Gamine rightly pointed out does not say anything like it is the elders that will forgive the sins, or that the person should confess to the elders. . . please read it slowly.

Neither did James 5:14-15 mention 'confessing directly to God'; so how did the forgiveness of the sick person's sins come into the picture suddenly

Lol@Jesoul

na real Electric slide

@Imhotep.
i dont Stutter
and
I cant even believe you'd use only that one scripture
to prove what is done in the Catholic institution.


Mar 2:7 Why does this one speak such blasphemies? Who can forgive sins except God only?
1Jo 1:9 If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
Dan 9:4 And I prayed to Jehovah my God, and made my confession, and said, O Lord, the great and awesome God, keeping the covenant and mercy to those who love Him, and to those who keep His commandments,
Mar 11:25 And when you stand praying, if you have anything against anyone, forgive it so that also your Father in Heaven may forgive you your trespasses.


Mat 6:12 and forgive us our debts as we also forgive our debtors.

Gamine:

Mar 2:7 Why does this one speak such blasphemies? Who can forgive sins except God only?
1Jo 1:9 If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
Dan 9:4 And I prayed to Jehovah my God, and made my confession, and said, O Lord, the great and awesome God, keeping the covenant and mercy to those who love Him, and to those who keep His commandments,
Mar 11:25 And when you stand praying, if you have anything against anyone, forgive it so that also your Father in Heaven may forgive you your trespasses.
Mat 6:12 and forgive us our debts as we also forgive our debtors.

To claim that these passages contradict and neutralise  John20:22-23 is bad biblical scholarship.

John 20: 22-23
22 And when He had said this, He breathed on them and said to them, “Receive the Holy Spirit.

23[b] “If you forgive the sins of any, their sins have been forgiven them; if you retain the sins of any, they have been retained.”[/b]

Secondly, was James trying to cajole us here ->

James  5:14-15
14   Is anyone among you sick?  He should summon the presbyters of the church, and they should pray over him and anoint (him) with oil in the name of the Lord,

15 and the prayer of faith will save the sick person, and the Lord will raise him up. If he has committed any sins, he will be forgiven.

There is no mention of 'confessing directly to God' --- suddenly he says the sick person will be forgiven. What happened?

Gamine:

It is compulsory to go the priests.

Where is a compulsion stated in the bible.

You will see people shaking,

"i havent gone for confession ooooo"

as if na baba Priest wey dey save pesin

Sorry, pardon my pidgin.

So the person confesses to the priest and what happens next
the persoon just goes on his way
Does it mean he is forgiven?

Besides the scripture you posted
Simply means that Forgiveness comes from God who
you are asking in faith to heal the person.
One has to be cleansed before healing can even take place sef.

These priessts what do they do
They tell the person to say ten hail marys and twenty our fathers
what kind of prayer is that.

No basis no basis at all.
i could keep going on
but spare me a moment please.

I think u got the wrong impression rite there. The catholic church believes that Confession is a sacrament , and like most other sacraments are adminstered by the priest.This is backed by the quotations given by imhotep. But just like all the other sacraments it does not depend on the adminstrator (Priest) for it to be recieved properly but depends on the recipient of the sacrament. Now before u even go to a confession, u should have spent at least 15 minutes going over them and actually confessing and being contrite for them. So even before u go to the Priest u should have started the act of Penace urself. The Priest only helps you (that is why he is a priest) to bring it to completion.

Gamine:

Lol@Jesoul

na real Electric slide

@Imhotep.
i don't Stutter
and
I can't even believe you'd use only that one scripture
to prove what is done in the Catholic institution.


Mar 2:7 Why does this one speak such blasphemies? Who can forgive sins except God only?

And that is also the belief of the Catholic church.


And to digress a little bit, some poster made a remark about the Catholic church not believing in Hell. Can someone educate me on that plis

Oh man!
Dont put words in my post!

i never said a thing abt contradiction.

ok, on that Scripture, since you wont let go of it,

The Prayer of Faith,
What is in the prayer?

So i dont get what you saying here, that the priests forgive sins?
Whats up with holy marys and our fathers that people have to say.

Then again you decided to push aside scriptures that talk about confessing directly to
God.


@Uchenna

Completion?

uche2nna:
I think u got the wrong impression rite there. The catholic church believes that Confession is a sacrament , and like most other sacraments are adminstered by the priest.This is backed by the quotations given by imhotep. But just like all the other sacraments it does not depend on the adminstrator (Priest) for it to be recieved properly but depends on the recipient of the sacrament. Now before u even go to a confession, u should have spent at least 15 minutes going over them and actually confessing and being contrite for them. So even before u go to the Priest u should have started the act of Penace yourself. The Priest only helps you (that is why he is a priest) to bring it to completion.

@Gamine

You might want to check this page from the Vatican -> http://www.vatican.va/archive/catechism/p2s2c2a4.htm

Gamine:

Oh man!
Dont put words in my post!

i never said a thing about contradiction.

Then what did you mean?

Gamine:
ok, on that Scripture, since you wont let go of it,

Its part of scripture. We can't let go of it.

Gamine:
The Prayer of Faith,
What is in the prayer?

I want to establish the fact that God can forgive through the ministry of men --- because He wants to. The "Prayer of Faith" is not an issue for this thread.

Gamine:
So i don't get what you saying here, that the priests forgive sins?
Whats up with holy marys and our fathers that people have to say.

You might want to check this page from the Vatican -> http://www.vatican.va/archive/catechism/p2s2c2a4.htm

Gamine:
Then again you decided to push aside scriptures that talk about confessing directly to
God.

No document of the Catholic church reads : "thou shall not confess directly to God"

In fact, many parts of the liturgy of the Church contain many pleas for forgiveness from God. Search the internet for this.

Ok, So what are we saying here?

So is it Compulsory to go to the Priests??

Gamine:

Ok, So what are we saying here?

So is it Compulsory to go to the Priests??

That it is scriptural to go to the priests.

Gamine:

Oh man!
Dont put words in my post!








@Uchenna

Completion?

Yup, completion.  Like I told u confession is held in very high esteem by the catholic church that it is grouped as a sacrament. And sacraments , my dear, include Baptism, Holy communion, Matrimony (marriage) and even preistly ordinations. All of them requires the services of the priest at some point in time. Lets take Marriage for instance. U and ur fiancee would have started all the procedures and commitment even before the priest/pastor starts asking you about those for better or for worse vows. U should have made all those decision all by urself , in ur room or watever, but because it is such a big occasion in ur spritual life u need to have it presided over and brought to completion by a priest. Otherwise , u guys are never married, no matter how many times u say I do in comfort of ur bedroom. That is also the way the Catholic church sees the Sacrament of Penance. It is a huge occasion in ur spiritual life.

@Gamine
Catholics celebrate the Lord's supper daily. We go to confession to avoid presumption .
Remember this passage ==>

1 Corinthians11:27-32
27 Therefore whoever eats the bread or drinks the cup of the Lord unworthily will have to answer for the body and blood of the Lord.
 
28 A person should examine himself, and so eat the bread and drink the cup.

29  For anyone who eats and drinks without discerning the body, eats and drinks judgment on himself.

30 That is why many among you are ill and infirm, and a considerable number are dying.

31 If we discerned ourselves, we would not be under judgment;

32 but since we are judged by (the) Lord, we are being disciplined so that we may not be condemned along with the world.

The things of Jesus are not treated lightly or flimsily without disastrous consequences.

Gamine:

Ok, So what are we saying here?

So is it Compulsory to go to the Priests??

If u are a Catholic yes. If u are not, then maybe no. U can confess to ur sister/brother or whoever u feel comfortable with. I personally would go to a priest.