Alwaystrue:

@Goshen again with semantics,
When you said 'Given that it is true Jesus approved tithe.' and you gave a bonus what did you mean?

See as you try to make everything complex because you fail to admit you said Christ endorsed tithe.

Are you sure you read whatever people write or you just pick whatever suits you or whatever you wanna hear. You must read everything everyone says if you have time and want to make a meaningful teachings\reasoning the word of God. I have answered you already what I meant by that statement but you didn't read it and here is the quote again,

Goshen360:

@ Alwaystrue & Everyone,...a must read though a little lengthy

This is how you misunderstood my post and term it to me I said Jesus endorsed tithing and I accepted it. Thank God you quoted me and it's written in black and white. I said "GIVEN THAT...". That is, assuming it is so, and under what circumstance did he endorsed it? Do you call that endorsement even though it is clear he was rebuking and pronouncing woe on the scribes and pharisees? Was he talking to his disciples and the church under that circumstance? Like someone did, lemme put that verse, Matthew 23:23 in proper perspective for you to see,

King James Bible (Cambridge Ed.)
Woe unto you scribes and Pharisees CHURCH OF CHRIST hypocrites!, for CHURCH OF CHRIST hypocrites! pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have omitted the weightier matters of the law, judgment, mercy, and faith: these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone.

How does that sound to you, Jesus was talking to the church right? and the church are hypocrites? The context of Matthew 23 in verse 1-3 had Jesus already told HIS DISCIPLES NOT TO DO ACCORDING TO THE WORKS OR PRACTICES OF THE SCRIBES AND PHARISEES....that includes their tithing. That's why you never read Jesus taught tithing to his disciples and neither did the disciples taught it to the church.

You ONLY picked where I replaced the scribes & pharisees FOR the church of Christ, hypocrites and I did that to let you see how it looks like were it that Jesus was talking to the Apostles. Also, I showed you the leaven of the pharisees that Jesus SPECIFICALLY warned his Apostles about was same HYPOCRISY.

King James Bible (Cambridge Ed.)
In the mean time, when there were gathered together an innumerable multitude of people, insomuch that they trode one upon another, he began to say unto his disciples first of all, Beware ye of the leaven of the Pharisees, which is hypocrisy. Luke 12:1

Every time Jesus talks or teaches his disciples, it is ALWAYS stated in scriptures. The reason is so we don't mix things up as some does. Therefore, Jesus could not and clearly wasn't addressing the Apostles in that context of Matthew 23:23 because he already SPOKE to them to beware of the leaven of the pharisees, which is HYPOCRISY and Christ also 'first' talked to his disciples in Matthew 23:1-2 before addressing the scribes and pharisees from verse 10 or so, in Matthew 23.

So, if you tithe teachers are saying Christ was talking to the disciples or Apostles or the Church in that context, then add Luke 12:1 and substitute like I did and see how it reads. Allow scripture to interpret scriptures and you won't fall into errors. You said, leaven of the pharisee is following the letters of the law rather than the spirit and intent behind the law of Moses BUT clearly, scriptures tells us what the leaven of the pharisee is.

@ Bidam, Image123 and Other Tithe Teachers,

Feel free to refute my exposition\explanation on 1 Corinthians 9:13-14. Especially you, Bidam, because it's one of your favourite scriptures you lift out of context and want to force 'tithe' into the context. I dey here full ground for you\una.

Zikkyy:

true talk. but sure they will never understand.

*i think i should do away with comments like this, am beginning to sound like image123*

u know image 123 problem? Our MOG have been so long on tithe thread and from observed facts he's convinced of the fact that christians are not supposed to pay tithe, but our MOG is pained that more ppl are coming to the knowledge of the truthe and he dreads the day he will recieve a circular from their hqtr that will be tittled 'NO MORE TITHE', @ Image123, dont worry, God will provide, but take my advice and learn a trade. Remain blessed.

Bidam: Paul has not always taken advantage of his right to receive financial support but that does not mean he never had this right. If Christian ministers do not have the right to demand financial support from Christians, Paul's argument would be meaningless. His point is that he has not taken what was rightfully his, and not that he has given up what did not belong to him in the first place. Therefore, the right to receive financial support is for the minister to temporarily relinquish whenever he deems appropriate for the sake of the gospel, but it is never up to the Christians to withhold the money from him.


Or is it only I and Barnabas who must work for a living? Who
serves as a soldier at his own expense? Who plants a vineyard and
does not eat of its grapes? Who tends a flock and does not drink of
the milk? Do I say this merely from a human point of view?
Doesn't the Law say the same thing? For it is written in the Law of
Moses: "Do not muzzle an ox while it is treading out the grain." Is
it about oxen that God is concerned? Surely he says this for us,
doesn't he? Yes, this was written for us, because when the
plowman plows and the thresher threshes, they ought to do so in
the hope of sharing in the harvest. If we have sown spiritual seed
among you, is it too much if we reap a material harvest from
you?…Don't you know that those who work in the temple get their
food from the temple, and those who serve at the altar share in
what is offered on the altar? In the same way, the Lord has
commanded that those who preach the gospel should receive their
living from the gospel1 cor 9:6-11, 13-14 NIV

No one is saying it is wrong to give gift/material things to Paul or pastors. Having the right to ask for support is not the same thing as mandating one to give a you a percentage of his material harvest. You wrote this:

EXAMPLES ABOUND IN
SCRIPTURES ABOUT THE
PHILIPPIANS AND
MACEDONIANS WHO
PARTNERED WITH PAUL TILL
THEY GO BROKE...Spare us your
hypocritical sermons..you can
fool the rest not me.

So i want to know if Paul was growing rich as these people where going broke of where all of them going broke at the same time? Just focus on this so i can know how it happen and where.

Bidam: Paul has not always taken advantage of his right to receive financial support but that does not mean he never had this right. If Christian ministers do not have the right to demand financial support from Christians, Paul's argument would be meaningless. His point is that he has not taken what was rightfully his, and not that he has given up what did not belong to him in the first place. Therefore, the right to receive financial support is for the minister to temporarily relinquish whenever he deems appropriate for the sake of the gospel, but it is never up to the Christians to withhold the money from him.


Or is it only I and Barnabas who must work for a living? Who
serves as a soldier at his own expense? Who plants a vineyard and
does not eat of its grapes? Who tends a flock and does not drink of
the milk? Do I say this merely from a human point of view?
Doesn't the Law say the same thing? For it is written in the Law of
Moses: "Do not muzzle an ox while it is treading out the grain." Is
it about oxen that God is concerned? Surely he says this for us,
doesn't he? Yes, this was written for us, because when the
plowman plows and the thresher threshes, they ought to do so in
the hope of sharing in the harvest. If we have sown spiritual seed
among you, is it too much if we reap a material harvest from
you?…Don't you know that those who work in the temple get their
food from the temple, and those who serve at the altar share in
what is offered on the altar? In the same way, the Lord has
commanded that those who preach the gospel should receive their
living from the gospel1 cor 9:6-11, 13-14 NIV

No one is saying it is wrong to give gift/material things to Paul or pastors. Having the right to ask for support is not the same thing as mandating one to give a you a percentage of his material harvest. You wrote this:

EXAMPLES ABOUND IN
SCRIPTURES ABOUT THE
PHILIPPIANS AND
MACEDONIANS WHO
PARTNERED WITH PAUL TILL
THEY GO BROKE...Spare us your
hypocritical sermons..you can
fool the rest not me.

So i want to know if Paul was growing rich as these people where going broke of where all of them going broke at the same time? Just focus on this so i can know how it happen and where.

@ Alexleo,

alexleo:

And if there is any good thing that i ll say you,Frosbel, did for me, it is dragging me out of Churchianity and i thank you for that. If you check my post in recent past i dont talk much about my church, my church. Its now more about Jesus. Why? Remember you ve always mentioned to me in some of my posts to concentrate on Jesus than church traditions. Do you know why i accepted your message? CONVICTION BY THIS SAME HOLY SPIRIT AM TELLING YOU ABOUT AND YOU ARE TRYING TO DRAG ME AWAY FROM HIM. NO BROS. Honestly am grateful to you for dragging me out of churchianity and i can tell you am also dragging people in my church out of it now in my own branch. Three weeks ago, in one of our meetings i stood up and spoke against this my church, my church mentality in our church and told them to remember its all about JESUS and not church. By the time i finished, come and see people agreeing with what i said. YOU, FROSBEL SPOKE THIS WORDS TO ME, THE HOLY SPIRIT CONVINCED ME THAT TRULY ITS ALL ABOUT JESUS. NOW, YOU VE SPOKEN THIS ONE AND AM TELLING YOU THAT I HAVE NO CONVICTION TO STOP IT. THEN LEAVE IT AT THAT. THANKS MY BROTHER.

In the light of what i ve said, pls note that whenever am discussing with you or anybody here am not doing it on the platform of my church. This also does not mean that i hate my church or am trying to be a rebel there. GOD FORBID.

I gave my endorsement as one of the 'likes' you see on this your comment but giving it a second thought. You're right at one angle about the Spirit of God convincing you to follow after non-tithing for Christians BUT on the other angle\thought, I feel I should say this to you seeing you're my good brother and friend. You've also being a source of inspiration to me also reading some of your post here, God bless you for sharing with me\us.

However, the truth is, The Spirit of God doesn't contradict the word of God he authored. The Spirit of God uses the word to guide and lead us into all truth. The word of God itself is truth, John 17:17 and Christ said, the Spirit of truth will guide you into ALL truth, John 16:13 - what that simply means is that, the Spirit of God will use the word of God, which is truth and which he authored as a platform\foundation to guide you\us into all the truth he was meant to guide us into.

We're not to go against what is written or go beyond what is written for us, especially in the dispensation of the New Testament that we belong. There's a pattern of giving in the New Testament scriptures - it must not be of force or of necessity or grudgingly or out of compulsion and it does not include tithe\tithing for Christians. I will like you to re-visit this topic in your diligent and personal study and allow the Spirit of God guide you using the word. You will come to find out, giving according to the order of Grace is more blessing than tithing according to the order of the law and I hope, one day, you will be grateful to God I gave you this advice for more studying the subject.

God bless you brother.

@Goshen,

Goshen360:
On bestiality, I answered also but maybe you missed it because you're busy with this tithe matters. Anyways, I do not support bestiality in any form neither does the Bible support it, not in the spirit of the Old Testament though. Now, what is bestiality involved? Simple....a sex.ual act right? But in this case, se.xual act with animals. Therefore, if it falls within the scope of all sex.ual sins mentioned in scriptures in the New Testament, it becomes a sin to God and animal right violation. Here is it,

New Living Translation (©2007)
When you follow the desires of your sinful nature, the results are very clear: sexual immorality, impurity, lustful pleasures, idolatry, sorcery, hostility, quarreling, jealousy, outbursts of anger, selfish ambition, dissension, division, envy, drunkenness, wild parties, and other sins like these. Let me tell you again, as I have before, that anyone living that sort of life will not inherit the Kingdom of God. Galatians 5:19-21

You\people MUST understand the Apostle Paul NEVER mention ALL the sins in the world BUT he says...."and other sins like these....anyone living that sort of life will not inherit the Kingdom of God". Does bestiality falls into the category of SINS and SEXUAL IMMORALITY? If it does as it does, it means what it means - those who practice such or live such sort of life will not inherit the Kingdom of God.

Sure I have answered your question.

@Goshen, I stand by all I posted before on the intent and spirirt of the law and it is very easy to understand.

Are you saying that bestiality is one of the 'sins as these' m etioned by Paul? All the sins 'as these' the bible mentioned were between humans so how did you relate that to that of animal rights? Did the bible tell you the animal rights in question? As abominable as bestiality is, the NT did not list it but you expect new believers who know nothing to know it is a sexual sin?

Was it not you that said on a thread that two unmarried adults who consent to a sexual act can go ahead and sleep together as it is not fornication? To Goshen, that is not a sexual sin nor a 'sin such as these?'
You left that and jumped to bestiality.
Speechless.

christemmbassey: u know image 123 problem?

Image123 doesn't see images clearly.

Goshen360: @ Bidam, Image123 and Other Tithe Teachers,

Feel free to refute my exposition\explanation on 1 Corinthians 9:13-14. Especially you, Bidam, because it's one of your favourite scriptures you lift out of context and want to force 'tithe' into the context. I dey here full ground for you\una.

like i said earlier and still say now your expositions lacks rhema..all na wash..you quote Jesus statements saying He mean't the disciples go from house to house and whateva they give them is their wage(from that context is it NOT under the law you are quoting?)...remember they were first called christians in Acts of the apostles..Paul established churches and there was koinonia..so the ministers or elders should eat from the gospel and NOT go to people house to collect alms like beggers. Lemme give you another scripture to butress the point further since you are dull of hearing: 1 tim 5:17 says that those church leaders "who do their work well should be paid well"(NLT), and NOT just with an amount enough to live on. The GNT says that he is "worthy of receiving double pay"...this applies to ministers who work HARD AT PREACHING AND TEACHING.

We have good testimony on this forum , where many Christians have changed their stance on this LIE called the tithe. The concept in the context of this age of grace has been thrown to the garbage can were it belongs.

Hopefully , they will spread the message , and by multiplication reach thousands and millions to free GOD's people from this farce.

The intent is to run many of these fake MOG out of business , because that is exactly what it is to them.

Seriously, these guy wanna die with this tithe of a thing.

Boomark:

No one is saying it is wrong to give gift/material things to Paul or pastors. Having the right to ask for support is not the same thing as mandating one to give a you a percentage of his material harvest. You wrote this:



So i want to know if Paul was growing rich as these people where going broke of where all of them going broke at the same time? Just focus on this so i can know how it happen and where.

Ever learning but never able to come to the knowledge of Christ..sinec you are dull in understanding..lemme also ask you a queshion...how many churches partnered with Paul? Dnt forget paul planted many churches in his journeys..and his focus was basically the gentiles..Most times he is always in the synagogues pleading and arguing both with jews and babarians alike..do you think he has time making tents? Infact i make bold to say that he never wanted to be a burden that was why he resorted to tent making NOt that it wasn't his right to eat off the gospel.

Goshen360: @ Alexleo,

I gave my endorsement as one of the 'likes' you see on this your comment but giving it a second thought. You're right at one angle about the Spirit of God convincing you to follow after non-tithing for Christians BUT on the other angle\thought, I feel I should say this to you seeing you're my good brother and friend. You've also being a source of inspiration to me also reading some of your post here, God bless you for sharing with me\us.

However, the truth is, The Spirit of God doesn't contradict the word of God he authored. The Spirit of God uses the word to guide and lead us into all truth. The word of God itself is truth, John 17:17 and Christ said, the Spirit of truth will guide you into ALL truth, John 16:13 - what that simply means is that, the Spirit of God will use the word of God, which is truth and which he authored as a platform\foundation to guide you\us into all the truth he was meant to guide us into.

We're not to go against what is written or go beyond what is written for us, especially in the dispensation of the New Testament that we belong. There's a pattern of giving in the New Testament scriptures - it must not be of force or of necessity or grudgingly or out of compulsion and it does not include tithe\tithing for Christians. I will like you to re-visit this topic in your diligent and personal study and allow the Spirit of God guide you using the word. You will come to find out, giving according to the order of Grace is more blessing than tithing according to the order of the law and I hope, one day, you will be grateful to God I gave you this advice for more studying the subject.

God bless you brother.

just as bro. Goshen would say...

I endorse dis msg.

well said bro!

sylve11: Seriously, these guy wanna die with this tithe of a thing.

considering that not ONE Apostle preached on the Tithe , it is amazing to see people stubbornly holding unto this farce.

I keep saying it, they either believe that without the tithe no financial blessing will come their way , or they are part of the fleecers !

No queshion should be directed to me pls..i think am done talking here..i will merely observe..even the Op has made up his mind..the cycle keeps repeating itself with the same old hypocritical folks and useless questions..u can refer to other threads to understand my meanings..to your tents o israel.

Bidam: Ever learning but never able to come to the knowledge of Christ..sinec you are dull in understanding..lemme also ask you a queshion...how many churches partnered with Paul? Dnt forget paul planted many churches in his journeys..and his focus was basically the gentiles..Most times he is always in the synagogues pleading and arguing both with jews and babarians alike..do you think he has time making tents? Infact i make bold to say that he never wanted to be a burden that was why he resorted to tent making NOt that it wasn't his right to eat off the gospel.

Partnering, sowing seed, paying tithe etc, but what for ?

The only reason why money was collected in the early church , plus other gifts , was to meet the needs of the poor and missionaries.

There is not ONE mention of money used to build magnificent temples and pay the high priest to manage them, this is what Pagans did.

We are to be our brothers keeper not brothers taker.

My observation in these churches , is that the poor get even poorer while the rich get richer, this is not right.

Bidam: What about the widow of zarepath and the widows mite don't you realize it is a burden to them? GIVINGS ARE MOST TIMES COSTLY TO BELIEVERS WHO ARE CONSISTENT IN THEIR WALK WITH JESUS...I KNOW RESILIENT CHRISTIANS WHO GAVE TILl THEY GO BROKE..THEY NEVER BACKSLIDDED IN THEIR GIVINGS AND I BELIEVE GOD SEES AND HONOURS THEIR GIVINGS...EXAMPLES ABOUND IN SCRIPTURES ABOUT THE PHILIPPIANS AND MACEDONIANS WHO PARTNERED WITH PAUL TILL THEY GO BROKE...Spare us your hypocritical sermons..you can fool the rest not me.

Read Deut. 14:28-29. The tithe WENT TO THE WIDOWS. Widows did not tithe.

Does the New Testament teach that Christians should give until they go broke? What did Paul say? 2 Corinthians 8:13 Our desire is not that others might be relieved while you are hard pressed, but that there might be equality.

There is no equality when the poor give to make someone else richer than they are. That goes AGAINST New Testament teaching.

Bidam: Point of correction tithing is more or less a burden to the rich NOT to the poor..If i earn 100 million bucks as a smart business man i'd rather engage my one million to make more than give it to the Church..that's the way Babylonian systems works..but a poor man who earns 10,000 giving GOD 1000 IS easy AND NEVER A BURDEN.

Where is the common sense here?

If someone barely makes enough to feed his family, giving a tenth means there won't be enough left to feed his family. Common sense.

A rich person who gives a tenth still have more than enough left to feed and take care of his family. Common sense.

garyarnold:

Where is the common sense here?

If someone barely makes enough to feed his family, giving a tenth means there won't be enough left to feed his family. Common sense.

A rich person who gives a tenth still have more than enough left to feed and take care of his family. Common sense.

Most give because they expect a financial reward not because of charity.

Alwaystrue:
I said Jesus endorsed tithe and you accepted that, so that is where you said it, I had a vague idea you said that before I posted my comment.

Jesus "endorsed" ALL of the laws in effect during his lifetime. Jesus was born, lived, and died DURING THE TIME OF THE OLD TESTAMENT.

Alwaystrue:
Pity and that is why Jesus gave the perfect answer:

Matthew 23:23
Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have omitted the weightier matters of the law, judgment, mercy, and faith: these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone.

Have mercy first but still remember that you should give to support the ministry. It was as simple as that. You keep picking the letter of the law, touch not, don't do this etc?

Where do the scriptures ever say that the FIRST tithe, the one in Leviticus 27:30-33, Numbers 18, was PAID? That tithe, the one that supported the priesthood, was NOT paid. It was TAKEN. Only the 3-year tithe (Deut. 14:28-29) can be considered paid.

Notice Jesus related the tithe to "matters of the law." Just what did the scribes and Pharisees tithe from? THE INCREASE OF THE SEED. Their HERBS. Did Jesus tell them they should have tithed FROM THEIR INCOME as lawyers and teachers?

You tithers keep adding to the scriptures. The tithe NEVER came from income or earnings. Period.

Possibly a lot of people here have been wondering where my questions to Goshen are leading to as I asked questions ranging from circumcision to bestiality.

Now Goshen, the beloved of the anti-tithe crew believes that Christians have nothing to do with the law, infact he says the church should follow eveything from the book of Acts to Revelation forgetting that Jesus brought grace and truth of that law.

Now each time Goshen gave answers, he hammered on it not being in the same way of the law of Moses or the OT which I did not ask about yet so many here circumsize and plan to circusize their children and it is usually done on the 8th day,the difference is that they are not following the OT.

On bestiality, I was not too surprised when Goshen started reading meaning to Paul's 'sins as these' even though it never bore any semblance to s.ex with animals.

If people obey the simple law of God that then shall a man leave his father and mother and cling to his wife since he made man male and female, they will become one flesh. There is no room for bestiality when one has s.exual intercouse with only one's spouse. Even the law endorses and bears it witness. Paul referenced the law often but those holier than others won't touch it with a long pole.

However, Goshen here believes that you need not be married to enjoy this act specially meant for the married. Infact he says it is not sin and this is not fornication because fornication is illicit sex hence, sleeping with someone else's daughter or son when they have not been given in marriage (as long as they have consented) is not illicit.
And I know all those in support of Goshen will see nothing wrong in this as their 'pastor' does no wrong.

Any objective eye will see that the anti-tithe crew do not find fault in their heretic teachings amongst themselves, they do not correct themselves or pat each other Backs even when wrong and anyone who is against tithe even atheist are their brothers and friends.

I took the time to explain tithe as it should and the only reason why they reject it is because it comes from someone who tithes. Even when scriptures are shown so easy to understand, they claim it is the pastor's teaching or deceit. Every topic now was an undertone of anti-tithe so much so that some are vehemently denying to be children of Abraham by faith just because they cannot bear to tithe oh but they are not against giving to pastors.

As Image123 said, the cycle continues and there are other aspects of life in Christ which I hope the anti-tithe crew will focus on rather than their obsession on tithe and imaginary burdens.
Thank you.

Alwaystrue:
I took the time to explain tithe as it should and the only reason why they reject it is because it comes from someone who tithes.

Explanations are not need. Scripture is needed. I've given the scripture, and will give it again. The scriptures do all the explaining necessary. Tithers take the scriptures and read into them that which is not there.

God DEFINED His tithe in Leviticus 27:30-33. NOTHING ELSE QUALIFIES. Period. Simple as that. You find NO examples in the scriptures where wage earners tithed. You find NO examples in the scriptures where one's income was tithed from. You find NO examples in the scriptures where God's tithe was money. Is that so hard to understand?

The tithe didn't come from man's hand. It came from God's miraculous increase.

You tithers insult God when you claim His tithe to be a tenth of YOUR income.

For tithers, it's all about themselves. THEY tithe from THEIR income. Makes them feel good to say they tithe, as those what they do follows scripture.

The Biblical tithe was ALL ABOUT GOD. Man had NOTHING to do with it other than transport it.

Very sad to see all the false teaching which started, right here, where I am, in the United States, and now has spread world wide.

1 Corinthians 9:13-14 are two verses that many preachers like to use in their pulpits to teach their congregation that God requires a monetary tithe. After all, the verses first reveal that the Levites lived off of the tithe, and in the same manner those who preach the Gospel should also receive tithe for their support.

But is that what the verses are saying? Let’s have a look at them in context, shall we?…

Now, in order to see them in their proper context, we must look at surrounding verses in the Chapter, and even look into that which the priest’s ate at the altar.

1 Corinthians 9:7-15 (KJV)
7 Who goeth a warfare any time at his own charges? who planteth a vineyard, and eateth not of the fruit thereof? or who feedeth a flock, and eateth not of the milk of the flock?
8 Say I these things as a man? or saith not the law the same also?
9 For it is written in the law of Moses, Thou shalt not muzzle the mouth of the ox that treadeth out the corn. Doth God take care for oxen?
10 Or saith he it altogether for our sakes? For our sakes, no doubt, this is written: that he that ploweth should plow in hope; and that he that thresheth in hope should be partaker of his hope.
11 If we have sown unto you spiritual things, is it a great thing if we shall reap your carnal things?
12 If others be partakers of this power over you, are not we rather? Nevertheless we have not used this power; but suffer all things, lest we should hinder the gospel of Christ.
13 Do ye not know that they which minister about holy things live of the things of the temple? and they which wait at the altar are partakers with the altar?
14 Even so hath the Lord ordained that they which preach the gospel should live of the gospel.
15 But I have used none of these things: neither have I written these things, that it should be so done unto me: for it were better for me to die, than that any man should make my glorying void.

Now, it is clear that the minister of God is to be supported. The leading verses above clearly show this to be true. But who was Paul referencing in this Chapter of his first epistle to the saints at Corinth? Verse 15 reveals that he was referencing himself when he says, “But I have used none of these things…” Context shows Paul was speaking of himself in this passage of Scripture.

What kind of support was Paul speaking of? Was it tithes as the modern preacher claims? To find out, we must go to the Old Testament to see what it says.

There are only three verses in the entire Old Testament that give a clue as to what was eaten at the altar (they which wait at the altar are partakers with the altar)

Leviticus 10:12 (KJV) And Moses spake unto Aaron, and unto Eleazar and unto Ithamar, his sons that were left, Take the meat offering that remaineth of the offerings of the LORD made by fire, and eat it without leaven beside the altar: for it is most holy:

Deuteronomy 12:27 (KJV) And thou shalt offer thy burnt offerings, the flesh and the blood, upon the altar of the LORD thy God: and the blood of thy sacrifices shall be poured out upon the altar of the LORD thy God, and thou shalt eat the flesh.

Numbers 18:30 (KJV) Therefore thou shalt say unto them, When ye have heaved the best thereof from it, then it shall be counted unto the Levites as the increase of the threshingfloor, and as the increase of the winepress.
31 And ye shall eat it in every place, ye and your households: for it is your reward for your service in the tabernacle of the congregation.
32 And ye shall bear no sin by reason of it, when ye have heaved from it the best of it: neither shall ye pollute the holy things of the children of Israel, lest ye die.

In the above verses, we see that the only things the priest partook of at the altar were the flesh from the burnt offering and the meat offering . The Levites tithe to the priest was heaved before the altar and the best part of the heave offering was given back to the Levites to eat anywhere they chose to eat it. There is no mention in the Word of God of the Priests eating of the tithe at the altar, only of offerings.

The Levites kept 90% of the tithe that they received in their Levitic cites. They took 10% of the tithe that they received to the Tabernacle/Temple and the Priest, after heaving the tithe that the Levites brought gave the best portion of that heave offering back to the Levites so they could take it and eat it where they desired.

After studying what was eaten at the altar and in the Temple, it is evident that 1 Corinthians 9:13 is not speaking of a monetary tithe, nor was it speaking of the Israelites crop, fruit and livestock tithe. It was speaking of offerings.

And the Apostle Paul said, “Even so, ..those who preach the Gospel should live of the Gospel.” The Apostle was encouraging the giving of offerings to the preacher of the Gospel… not tithes.

If pastors would rightly divide the Word of Truth when preparing their sermons, they would not be guilty of mishandling the Word of God as they do when teaching 1 Corinthians 9:12-14 is endorsing a monetary tithe. There was no monetary tithe when the Apostle penned his first epistle to the Church at Corinth, the tithe consisted of crops, flocks and herds as recorded in Leviticus 27:30-34.

I haven't had time to go through the thread in detail since where I last dropped off, but I will comment on the 'Jesus endorsed tithes' issue.

Jesus was talking to Pharisees regarding the law of Moses, or if you prefer, law-based tithing - that is the context under which tithing of Dill and Cumin could occur. I ask those who use it as 'evidence' of endorsement - do you tithe dill and cumin/agricultural produce? Do you tithe to the Levitical Priesthood in Jerusalem?

As for Mercy and Faith, thank Jesus that we do not rely solely on Matt 23:23 for evidence! Jesus taught extensively about these subjects elsewhere, so it is not in doubt that Christians should also display Mercy and Faith. I also give thanks that Jesus taught extensively about giving - it speaks volumes that nowhere else did Jesus mention tithes, not to talk of teaching it to his apostles.

The context of not leaving some undone goes right to the heart of what the law requires - 100% compliance. If you miss out an element, you have failed. That was the emphasis of Jesus' comment - you cannot selectively choose what aspects you comply with.

Finally, if you want to hold on to the idea that Jesus 'endorsed' tithes, it is only logical to tithe in the 'endorsed' fashion:

- ensure it is agricultural produce (e.g. Dill and Cumin)
- ensure you are a Jew - not metaphorical or Spiritual like some like to paint it, but a biological descendant of Jacob/Israel
- ensure you give your tithe to the Levitical Priesthood serving in the temple
- ensure you comply with the regulations for tithing spelled out in Leviticus

What you CANNOT do is redefine tithe to mean something completely different from what Jesus talked about and then say Jesus 'endorsed' tithes.

Finally, as for the matter of 'support of ministers' - I thank Jesus that ministers were supported in the early church as recorded in the NT, without anyone teaching tithing. Paul's reference was very clear - what he endorsed is getting support from the ministry NOT tithes. It is very clear from Corinthians:

In the same way, the Lord ordered that those who preach the Good News should be supported by those who benefit from it.

The principle is supporting ministers and nothing more.

garyarnold:

Explanations are not need. Scripture is needed.

Oh really? When scripture is quoted, they say all quoted are just scriptures, when explained, it is pastors understanding.

Yet your fellow antitither can say bestiality is a 'sin such as these' even with nothing showing so yet he can go ahead to say 'sleeping together by unmarried people who consent to do the act' is very right and not against scripture. Ofcourse no one will raise it with him, I will be glad to be proved wrong on this though.

Anyone who can stand on his worth and be objective and confirm if Goshen is right or wrong in this regard of what I pasted up there should take the challenge else all is eye service to man.

Alwaystrue:

Oh really? When scripture is quoted, they say all quoted are just scriptures, when explained, it is pastors understanding.

Yet your fellow antitither can say bestiality is a 'sin such as these' even with nothing showing so yet he can go ahead to say 'sleeping together by unmarried people who consent to do the act' is very right and not against scripture. Ofcourse no one will raise it with him, I will be glad to be proved wrong on this though.

Anyone who can stand on his worth and be objective and confirm if Goshen is right or wrong in this regard of what I pasted up there should take the challenge else all is eye service to man.

My expertise is tithing and giving, and I will limit my comments accordingly.

garyarnold:

My expertise is tithing and giving, and I will limit my comments accordingly.

Very diplomatic answer.

If 2 young people claiming to be in love come to you for advise, based on your years age-wise, if it's ok to have s.ex now as they plan to get married in the near future, what would be your advise based on the word of God?

You can't tell me you will tell them you are only an expert in tithe and giving?

debosky: I haven't had time to go through the thread in detail since where I last dropped off, but I will comment on the 'Jesus endorsed tithes' issue.

Jesus was talking to Pharisees regarding the law of Moses, or if you prefer, law-based tithing - that is the context under which tithing of Dill and Cumin could occur. I ask those who use it as 'evidence' of endorsement - do you tithe dill and cumin/agricultural produce? Do you tithe to the Levitical Priesthood in Jerusalem?

As for Mercy and Faith, thank Jesus that we do not rely solely on Matt 23:23 for evidence! Jesus taught extensively about these subjects elsewhere, so it is not in doubt that Christians should also display Mercy and Faith. I also give thanks that Jesus taught extensively about giving - it speaks volumes that nowhere else did Jesus mention tithes, not to talk of teaching it to his apostles.

The context of not leaving some undone goes right to the heart of what the law requires - 100% compliance. If you miss out an element, you have failed. That was the emphasis of Jesus' comment - you cannot selectively choose what aspects you comply with.

Finally, if you want to hold on to the idea that Jesus 'endorsed' tithes, it is only logical to tithe in the 'endorsed' fashion:

- ensure it is agricultural produce (e.g. Dill and Cumin)
- ensure you are a Jew - not metaphorical or Spiritual like some like to paint it, but a biological descendant of Jacob/Israel
- ensure you give your tithe to the Levitical Priesthood serving in the temple
- ensure you comply with the regulations for tithing spelled out in Leviticus

What you CANNOT do is redefine tithe to mean something completely different from what Jesus talked about and then say Jesus 'endorsed' tithes.

Finally, as for the matter of 'support of ministers' - I thank Jesus that ministers were supported in the early church as recorded in the NT, without anyone teaching tithing. Paul's reference was very clear - what he endorsed is getting support from the ministry NOT tithes. It is very clear from Corinthians:

In the same way, the Lord ordered that those who preach the Good News should be supported by those who benefit from it.

The principle is supporting ministers and nothing more.

Perfectly and Succinctly stated .

5 Stars

@ Alwaystrue,

Thanks for the slandering. However, lemme make it clear from henceforth, if you don't understand whatever I say or said in the past, I will appreciate you open a thread for me to answer or explain better or better still, give me room like you gave me in this thread to explain what I meant by "Given that..." as earlier said. You took my teachings out of context and slandered on it. Well, if you don't understand the word 'fornication' then you have a responsibility to yourself to study what it means and as used in every context. You people are doing the same thing in this case of tithe - expanding on what is said in scriptures. I do not appreciate when you take this discussion out of context and extend it to previous threads.

2. The scriptures I quoted simply and specifically mentioned 'fornication' in some translations and other translated to be 'se.xually immoral'. You people's problem is, studying takes a lot of digging and you must search it out. Again, if 'fornication' was simply translated as sex.ually immoral and the Greek\Hebrew meaning is 'illicit se.x' and mentioned in that verse I quoted, that is where it remains.

3. I also made it clear that the Apostle NEVER mentioned ALL the SINS in world. Is that too hard for you to understand or you're just out to slander. You are probably yet to understand what sin is. What someone calls sinful, another by his\her knowledge of God's word might not call it sinful. I hope you don't also take this statement out of context. Anything that is not of faith is sin among MANY definitions of sin. Therefore, if the New Testament doesn't mention 'bestiality', and I showed you if it is related to any of the sins mentioned then it fits into the 'others'. What then is it you don't understand?

4. I and many others here believes and as you rightly answered to my question in Acts 15, the it is the 'whole' of the law of Moses that is gone and we cannot just out pick tithe and lay hold on it. The law of Moses WAS NEVER WRITTEN TO THE CHURCH OF CHRIST and you must deal with that. IT WAS WRITTEN TO THE JEWS AND FOR THE JEWS ONLY. The New Testament took effect from Acts and I stand by that word BUT the foundation for the New Testament teachings were in Christ's teachings found in Matthew to John. Also, the whole law of Moses was a shadow and pointing to Christ. Now, that Christ, the reality and the substance had come and will come again, WE NO LONGER NEED THE LAW and I stand by that also.

5. In Christ dwells the FULLNESS of the Godhead bodily. No controversy! Come to the Grace and leave the laws of Moses alone because the Grace of Christ is sufficient for you. You're are yet to unloose the MANIFOLD blessings in the New Testament because you're mixing with the law of Moses. Again, they don't redefine each other, they are two poles apart. What you see in the law of Moses is shadows, what you see in Christ and the New testament is REALITY AND SUBSTANCE. I hereby challenge you to leave 'religious' interpretation of scriptures alone, take your bible STUDY, not reading SERIOUS and examine AGAIN everything you've being taught in the confinement of the 'church' and see if they are truth mixed with error. By doing that which I also did and still doing, you will prove yourself and your ministry.

Thank you.

Alwaystrue:

Very diplomatic answer.

If 2 young people claiming to be in love come to you for advise, based on your years age-wise, if it's ok to have s.ex now as they plan to get married in the near future, what would be your advise based on the word of God?

You can't tell me you will tell them you are only an expert in tithe and giving?

the bible says the christian can not sin, however we have babies, the best thing to do is not to quote any thou shall not stuff to them, justmake them to realize who they are and the seed of the word will make sure they dont sin. Bible says, i will put my laws in their heart, no one will teach the other know the lord......, a christian can not ask u to advice on premarital se.x, if anyone ask for such an advice, he/she is not a christian, ur main task should be to convert them. God bless.

Bidam: like i said earlier and still say now your expositions lacks rhema..all na wash..you quote Jesus statements saying He mean't the disciples go from house to house and whateva they give them is their wage[b](from that context is it NOT under the law you are quoting?)[/b]...remember they were first called christians in Acts of the apostles..Paul established churches and there was koinonia..so the ministers or elders should eat from the gospel and NOT go to people house to collect alms like beggers. Lemme give you another scripture to butress the point further since you are dull of hearing: 1 tim 5:17 says that those church leaders "who do their work well should be paid well"(NLT), and NOT just with an amount enough to live on. The GNT says that he is "worthy of receiving double pay"...this applies to ministers who work HARD AT PREACHING AND TEACHING.

Bidam:

No queshion should be directed to me pls..i think am done talking here..i will merely observe..even the Op has made up his mind..the cycle keeps repeating itself with the same old hypocritical folks and useless questions..u can refer to other threads to understand my meanings..to your tents o israel.

Are you serious? As in seriously?.....no question should be directed at you? When you take the words of Christ and trying to force 'tithe' into that meaning.....you and Image123 & Alwaystrue. You know say me I no dey fear to mention names, I go even highlight the names calling in RED so those concerned will say and read as I did above .

You're always reading yet not learning anything. Didn't you read when I said Christ came to fulfill the law AND AT THE SAME TIME LAYING FOUNDATION FOR THE NEW TESTAMENT THAT WILL TAKE EFFECT AFTER HIS DEATH....by appointing disciples to carry on, teaching them and empowering them? Did you read that? That was all under the Old Testament in Matthew to John. Since you agreed they were first called 'Christians' in Acts, then why can't you believe what I'm teaching that Christianity started in Acts of Apostle. Christianity is the religion of Christ's teachings that started AFTER his death. Judaism is the religion of the law that ENDED at the cross of Christ. The Cross is the great divider.

You've been distorting the truth of God's word by forcing 'tithe' into 1 Corinthians 9:13-14 and NO where was tithe mentioned there. And for your information, nobody, I mean none of us anti-tithers ever said the church ministers should not be supported - that is very clear from scriptures but is it by collecting TEN PERCENT OF PEOPLE'S INCOME? That's what we challenge because it is nowhere found in the New Testament. If you're needed to answer to whatever you say in error, we will definitely call on you or direct questions at you, in your name or your I.D.

Thank you & God bless you.