striktlymi:

Lol!!!

I am a Christian and you know for sure that I will say Christianity...a Muslim would say Islam...and so forth.

But the absolute TRUTH is that the Children of God can be found in every religion and irreligion.

Ultimately, what matters to God is the sincerity of each individual's heart in doing what he or she considers good in line with the principles of right conduct and good conscience.

Except in the Traditions of Daddy Francis, this is not a teaching of the bible

Wife beating anytime and
for any reason is never
allowed in Islam. There is
however a questionable
condition where Allah
Almighty seems to allow
the husband to beat his
wife, and that is after he
gives her two warnings to
stop showing ill-conduct
and disloyalty.
Let us look at Noble
Verses 4:34-36 "(34). Men
are the protectors and
maintainers of women,
because Allah has given
the one more (strength)
than the other, and
because they support
them from their means.
Therefore the righteous
women are devoutly
obedient, and guard in (the
husband's) absence what
Allah would have them
guard. As to those women
on whose part ye fear
disloyalty and ill-
conduct , admonish them
(first), (Next), refuse to
share their beds, (And
last) beat them (lightly);
but if they return to
obedience, seek not
against them Means (of
annoyance): For Allah is
Most High, great (above
you all).
(35). If ye fear a breach
between them twain,
appoint (two) arbiters,
one from his family, and
the other from hers; if
they wish for peace, Allah
will cause their
reconciliation: For Allah
hath full knowledge, and
is acquainted with all
things.
(36). Serve Allah, and join
not any partners with Him;
and do good- to parents,
kinsfolk, orphans, those in
need, neighbours who are
near, neighbours who are
strangers, the companion
by your side, the wayfarer
(ye meet), and what your
right hands possess: For
Allah loveth not the
arrogant, the
vainglorious;"
The Arabic word used in
Noble Verse 4:34 above is
"idribuhunna", which is
derived from "daraba"
which means "beat". The
issue with all of the
Arabic words that are
derived from the word
"daraba" is that they don't
necessarily mean "hit".
The word "idribuhunna" for
instance, could very well
mean to "leave" them. It
is exactly like telling
someone to "beat it" or
"drop it" in English.
Allah Almighty used the
word "daraba" in Noble
Verse 14:24 "Seest thou
not how Allah sets
(daraba) forth a parable?
-- A goodly Word Like a
goodly tree, Whose root
is firmly fixed, And its
branches (reach) To the
heavens" . "daraba" here
meant "give an example".
If I say in Arabic "daraba
laka mathal", it means
"give you an example".
Allah Almighty also used
the word "darabtum",
which is derived from the
word "daraba" in Noble
Verse 4:94, which mean to
"go abroad" in the sake of
Allah Almighty:
"O ye who believe! When ye
go abroad (darabtum) In
the cause of Allah,
Investigate carefully, And
say not to anyone Who
offers you a salutation:
'Thou art none of a
Believer!' Coveting the
perishable good Of this
life: with Allah Are profits
and spoils abundant. Even
thus were ye yourselves
Before, till Allah
conferred On you His
favours: therefore
Carefully investigate. For
Allah is well aware Of all
that ye do. (The Noble
Quran, 4:94)"
So "daraba" literally
means "beat", or "go
abroad", or "give" but not
in the sense to give
something by hand, but
rather to give or provide
an example.
Important Note: Notice
how Allah Almighty in
Noble Chapter (Surah) 4 He
used "daraba (4:34" and
"darabtum (4:94)", which
are both derived from the
same root. He used both
words in the same
Chapter, which tells me
that "daraba" in Noble
Verse 4:34 means to
desert or leave, since
that's what its derived
word meant in Noble
Verse 4:94. The next
section below will further
prove my point.
I am sure there are more
Noble Verses that used
words derived from
"daraba" in the Noble
Quran, but these are the
only ones I know of so
far. In the case of Noble
Verse 4:34 where Allah
Almighty seems to allow
men to hit their wives
after the two warnings
for ill-conduct and
disloyalty, it could very
well be that Allah
Almighty meant to
command the Muslims to
"leave" the home all
together and desert their
wives for a long time in a
hope that the wives would
then come back to their
senses and repent.
Noble Verses and Sayings
that support the
prohibition of any type of
wife beating:
The following Noble
Verses and Sayings from
the Noble Quran and
Prophet Muhammad peace
be upon him respectively
seem to very well
support the above
interpretation:
"...Do not retain them (i.e.,
your wives) to harm
them... (The Noble Quran,
2:231)"
Narrated Mu'awiyah al-
Qushayri: "I went to the
Apostle of Allah
(peace_be_upon_him) and
asked him: What do you say
(command) about our
wives? He replied: Give
them food what you have
for yourself, and clothe
them by which you clothe
yourself, and do not
beat them, and do not
revile them. (Sunan Abu-
Dawud, Book 11, Marriage
(Kitab Al-Nikah), Number
2139) "
Narrated Mu'awiyah ibn
Haydah: "I said: Apostle of
Allah, how should we
approach our wives and
how should we leave
them? He replied:
Approach your tilth when
or how you will, give her
(your wife) food when you
take food, clothe when you
clothe yourself, do not
revile her face, and do
not beat her. (Sunan
Abu-Dawud, Book 11,
Marriage (Kitab Al-Nikah),
Number 2138) "
Abu Huraira (Allah be
pleased with him)
reported Allah's Apostle
(may peace be upon him) as
saying: "He who believes in
Allah and the Hereafter, if
he witnesses any matter
he should talk in good
terms about it or keep
quiet. Act kindly towards
woman, for woman is
created from a rib, and
the most crooked part of
the rib is its top. If you
attempt to straighten it,
you will break it, and if
you leave it, its
crookedness will remain
there. So act kindly
towards women.
(Translation of Sahih
Muslim, The Book of
Marriage (Kitab Al-Nikah),
Book 008, Number 3468) "
"O ye who believe! Ye are
forbidden to inherit
women against their will.
Nor should ye treat
them with harshness,
that ye may take away
part of the dower [money
given by the husband to
the wife for the marriage
contract] ye have given
them, except where they
have been guilty of open
lewdness; on the
contrary live with them
on a footing of kindness
and equity. If ye take a
dislike to them it may be
that ye dislike a thing, and
God brings about through
it a great deal of good.
(The Noble Quran, 4:19)"
"And among God's signs is
this: He created for you
mates from amongst
yourselves (males as
mates for females and
vice versa) that you might
find tranquillity and peace
in them. And he has put
love and kindness among
you. Herein surely are
signs for those who
reflect. (The Noble Quran
30:21)"
"Women impure for men
impure. And women of
purity for men of purity.
These are not affected by
what people say. For
them is forgiveness and
an honorable provision.
(The Noble Quran 24:26)"
Narrated Abu Huraira:
"Allah's Apostle said, 'The
strong is not the one who
overcomes the people by
his strength, but the
strong is the one who
controls himself while
in anger. (Translation of
Sahih Bukhari, Good
Manners and Form (Al-
Adab), Volume 8, Book 73,
Number 135) "
Narrated Abu Huraira: "A
man said to the Prophet ,
'Advise me! 'The Prophet
said, 'Do not become angry
and furious.' The man
asked (the same) again
and again, and the Prophet
said in each case, 'Do not
become angry and
furious.' (Translation of
Sahih Bukhari, Good
Manners and Form (Al-
Adab), Volume 8, Book 73,
Number 137) "
Abu Huraira reported: "I
heard Allah's Messenger
(may peace be upon him) as
saying: One is not strong
because of one's
wrestling skillfully. They
said: Allah's Messenger,
then who is strong? He
said: He who controls his
anger when he is in a fit
of rage. (Translation of
Sahih Muslim, The Book of
Virtue, Good Manners and
Joining of the Ties of
Relationship (Kitab Al-Birr
was-Salat-I-wa'l-Adab),
Book 032, Number 6314) "
Allah Almighty loves
those who restrain anger:
"Those who spend (freely),
whether in prosperity, or
in adversity; who
restrain anger, and
pardon (all) men; for
Allah loves those who do
good. (The Noble Quran,
3:134)"
The Prophet forbade
striking on the face:
Let us look at the
following narrations
about Prophet Muhammad
peace be upon him:
Narrated Salim: "....Umar
said: 'The Prophet
forbade beating on the
face. ' (Translation of
Sahih Bukhari, Hunting,
Slaughtering, Volume 7,
Book 67, Number 449) "
Narrated AbuHurayrah:
"The Prophet
(peace_be_upon_him) said:
When one of you inflicts a
beating, he should avoid
striking the face.
(Sunan Abu-Dawud, Book
38, Prescribed
Punishments (Kitab Al-
Hudud), Number 4478) "
These narrations do not
prove the interpretation
that wife beating being ok
as long as it is not done
on the face, because the
narrations are general
and do not mention any
wives. The striking could
be done on our children
when we discipline them.
In this case, the above
two narrations would fit
perfectly with the
situation, because while
we can still physically
discipline our children, we
are not allowed to hit
them on the face.
What about the saying
about striking the wife
lightly on her hand with a
siwak?
There is not a single
Saying or Noble Verse
from Prophet Muhammad
or the Noble Quran
respectively that
mentions any such
beating.
A siwak is a small piece of
wood that is
approximately twice as
long as an index finger
and as thick as a thumb,
which was used 1400 years
ago to brush the teeth
and the bad breath.
This saying actually
belongs to Imam Shafie,
and not to Prophet
Muhammad. Imam Shafie
or Minister Shafie is a
popular Muslim scholar
that came 100s of years
after Prophet Muhammad.

superior1:

Except in the Traditions of Daddy Francis, this is not a teaching of the bible

You do not hold Sacred scriptures in high esteem, so you are in no position to tell me what scriptures teach or not.

striktlymi:

You do not hold Sacred scriptures in high esteem, so you are in no position to tell me what scriptures teach or not.

Says who?, do you care to validate your earlier claim with the scriptures?

superior1:

Says who?, do you care to validate your earlier claim with the scriptures?

I can but it won't help!

striktlymi:

I can but it won't help!

Atleast I know you won't pick a random text (or out of context) verse. So make a try

superior1:

Atleast I know you won't pick a random text (or out of context) verse. So make a try

The bold is the reason why the venture will not be worthwhile....

striktlymi:


The bold is the reason why the venture will not be worthwhile....

You are going to draw such conclusions on a random verse which you won't bother to share with a brother
*sighs* and exit thread

striktlymi:


The bold is the reason why the venture will not be worthwhile....

dis guy and 'the bold' sef..

superior1:
You are going to draw such conclusions on a random verse which you won't bother to share with a brother
*sighs* and exit thread

I didn't say I am not sharing, I only said it won't be worthwhile.

FrostyZonn:

By your argument, Muhammad then is without blame and Islam the one and only true religion. And yet you claim to be a Christian. Who are you deceiving?



Geez...

I can categorically tell you that STRIKTLYMI is a christian..

superior1:

Except in the Traditions of Daddy Francis, this is not a teaching of the bible

thank you o...i told him too!
Let him just show us from d Bible where he got that...

I read some few points of this post and I decided not to continue reading cos I realise the poster is just sharing his critical view of Islam that he got from copying and pasting from anti-islam websites.
I would implore you to learn with an open mind what Islam really is about.
No where does the Quran implies to all this things you are telling us.

riloxy: I read some few points of this post and I decided not to continue reading cos I realise the poster is just sharing his critical view of Islam that he got from copying and pasting from anti-islam websites.
I would implore you to learn with an open mind what Islam really is about.
No where does the Quran implies to all this things you are telling us.

Any website that that doesn't agree with Islamic way of life and hypocrisy in the slightest is automatically labelled as " anti-Islamic Website". Haba! Those excuses are getting old.

FYI, you are the 3th Muslim to make such lousy comment so far on this thread, so I have come to expect that from your kind. If you don't have the mental capacity to take on the thread intellectually, then don't bother posting ever, please. Thank you.

FrostyZonn:

If you are neither, then you are not a Muslim. According to history of Islam Sunni and Shia factions are significant part that shouldnt be ignored. Ali(Muhammad's grandson) rolls with the Sunnis, while his direct descendants are today's Shias.

So by professing to not belonging to neither, then you are practicing a corrupt form of Islam.

Just like in Christianity where we Have Roman Catholic, Protestant and Methodist, Islam have Sunni, Shia and two others not quite as popular as the previous two.

So on that note, I asked "are you sure you are truly a Muslim?"

Brother, in the Quran God says MUSLIM. There is no Sunni, shia or any other admit that fact.

striktlymi:

There is evidence to suggest that Muhammad would have preferred peace as against war and that is the simple truth. For the command he gave to his followers is to fight only those who fight against them.

Any true Muslim, from Muhammad's perspective does not go about looking for a fight.

He was involved in 26 battles; history proves that not all those battles were defensive. He robbed caravans travelling from Mecca to Damascus and killed 5 men on one of his raids - that is not defensive.

Please speak honestly from both sides

striktlymi:

There is evidence to show that Muhammad did not support the killing of the innocent. He has maintained that his followers only fight those who fight against them.

How do you determine those who are fighting Islam? Is building a church in Northern Nigeria fighting Islam. Is sharing another faith with a muslim fighting Islam?

alexis:

He was involved in 26 battles; history proves that not all those battles were defensive.

Bring any one of those battles as an example and we will examine it together.

alexis:
He robbed caravans travelling from Mecca to Damascus and killed 5 men on one of his raids - that is not defensive.

He did permit his followers to rob the Quraysh caravans but this was after he and his followers were persecuted and forced to flee their homes. He did not start it..he only responded to an aggressor.

alexis:
Please speak honestly from both sides

You are yet to show that I have been dishonest.

alexis:

How do you determine those who are fighting Islam? Is building a church in Northern Nigeria fighting Islam. Is sharing another faith with a muslim fighting Islam?

The bold are your words not mine.

mahdino:

Brother, in the Quran God says MUSLIM. There is no Sunni, shia or any other admit that fact.

It's the unwritten rule, which can be determined by your common sense.

striktlymi

Fight in the way of Allah those who fight you but do not transgress. Indeed. Allah does not like transgressors.

The above is a directive given by Muhammad to his followers, which is meant to guide their thinking when they go into war with a potential 'enemy'.

It can be seen clearly that the instruction was to fight against those who fight against them. And even when they fight, they should not shirk their moral responsibilities as depicted in his instruction for them not to transgress because Allah does not like transgressors.

So Sunnis and Shias are enemies? Are they not muslims? Why are they fighting and killing each other? Are innocent Christians fighting Boko Haram in northern Nigeria?

The issue here is not that all muslims are violent or that they don't understand the Quran. The Quran is like a set of logo-blocks, you can use it to build what you want. For a muslim that wants to be violent, the Quran legitimize such actions. For example:

Quran (8:12) - "I will cast terror into the hearts of those who disbelieve. Therefore strike off their heads and strike off every fingertip of them"

Quran (9:5) - "So when the sacred months have passed away, then slay the idolaters wherever you find them, and take them captive and besiege them and lie in wait for them in every ambush, then if they repent and keep up prayer and pay the poor-rate, leave their way free to them."

Clearly, the verses above are not DEFENSIVE

[quote author=FrostyZonn]Islam means Peace
[img]http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/images/myths-islam-means%20pea
means “submission” or “surrender.”

There is no disagreement about this among Islamic scholars. al-Silm (submission) does not mean the same thing as al-Salaam (peace), otherwise they would be the same word

It amazing that u talk as If u know much.
Check history with clean heart and discover that ever since time memorial there has only been one religion from God Jesus wash his hand and feet just like the muslims. Jesus says there is only one God just like the muslims. Jesus does not eat pig just like the muslims. Jesus put his face on the ground and pray to God just like the muslims. Jesus was circumcised just like the muslims. Jesus keeps beards just like the muslims. Jesus submit to God just like the muslim. Jesus said u cannot get salvation untill u keep the laws and commandment (Matt:5:17) JESUS IS A MUSLIM


TERRORISM IS FIRST TIME USE IN THE 1790S DURING THE FRENCH REVOLUTION THE YEAR 1793 TO 1794 WERE CALLED THE YEAR OF TERROR[color=#990000][/color] MAXIMILIN ROBESPIERVE WAS HEADING THE GOV. AND HE KILLED THOUSAND OF INNOCENT HUMAN BEINGS HE ARRESTED OVER 500,000, 40,000 WERE EXECUTED 200,000 WERE STARVED TO DEATH . WHEN U LOOK AT ATTACKS FROM THE 19TH CENTURY U CAN HARDLY FIND ANY ATTACK DONE BY THE MUSLIMS

IN 1881 TSAR ALEXANDER II OF RUSSIA WAS ASSASINATED IN A BOMB BLAST KILLING 21 INNOCENT PEOPLE. THE ATTACK WAS CARRIED OUT BY IGNANCY NOT A MUSLIM

IN 1886 A BOMD BLAST TOOK PLACE IN HAYMARKET SQ IN CHICAGO DURING A LABOUR RALLY 12 INNOCENT KILLED DONE BY 8 ANARCHISTS ALL OF THEM WERE NOT MUSLIMS

5TH SEP 1901 THE THEN US PRESIDENT WILLIAM MCKINLEY WAS ASSASINATED BY A MAN NAMED LEON CZOLGOSZ

1ST OCTOBER 1910 THERE WAS A BOMB BLAST IN LOS ANGELS TIMES NEWSPAPEER BUILDING KILLING 21 INNOCENT PEOPLE DONE BY 2 CHRISTIANS NAMED JAMES AND JOSEPH NOT MUSLIMS

28 JUNE 1914 ARCHDUKE OF AUTRIA AND HIS WIFE WERE ASSASINATED BY MEMBERS OF THE YOUNG BOSNIA GROUP THEY WERE SERBS NOT MUSLIMS

16TH APRIL 1925 A BOMB BLAST IN ST NEDELYA CHURCH IN SOFIA THE CAPITAL OF BULGARIA MORE THAN 150 KILLED AND 500 INJURED BY BULGARIAN COMMUNIST PARTY NOT MUSLIMS

9TH OCTOBER 1934 KING ALEXANDER OF YUGOSLAVIA WAS ASSASINATED BY VLADA GEORGIEFF NON MUSLIM

1ST MAY 1951 THE FIRST US PLANE HIJACKED BY RAMEREZ ORTIZ NON MUSLIM

28TH AUGUST 1968 THE US AMBASSADOR TO GUATEMELA WAS ASSASINATED BY A NON MUSLIM

30TH JULY 1969 USS AMBASSADOR TO JAPAN KNIFED BY A JAPANESE NON MUSLIM

3RD SEPTEMBER 1969 US AMBASSADOR TO BRAZIL WAS KIDNAPPED BY A NON MUSLIM

19TH APRIL 1995 BOMBING OF THE FEDERAL BUILDING IN OKLAHOMA CITY KILLED 160 INNOCENT HUMAN BEINGS BY 2 CHRISTIANS TIMOTHY AND TERRY

DO U KNOW THAT FROM 1941 TO 1948 AFTER THE WORLD WAR IN A SPAN OF 8 YRS 259 TERRORIST ATTACKS WERE CONDUCTED BY JEWISH TERRORIST GROUP WITH DIFFERENT ORGANIZATIONS THE 22ND JULY 1945 BOMBING OF KING DAVID HOTEL HEADED BY MENACHEM BEGIN KILLED 91 INNOCENT HUMAN BEINGS AND THIS SAME MAN MENACHEM BEGIN LATER BECAME THE PRIME MINISTER OF ISREAL AND LATER GOT AWARD FOR NOBEL PRIZE FOR PEACE. HOW COULD THE WORLD KEEP SILIENCE TO SUCH ATROCITIES HMMMM

HITLER ALONE KILLED SIX MILLION JEWS WHO WAS HE, A CHRISTIAN NOT A MUSLIM

IN GERMANY FROM 1968 TO 1992 BAADER MEINHOFF GANG KILLED SEVERAL INNOCENT HUMAN BEINGS THEY WERE ALL NOT MUSLIMS

IN ITALY THE RED BRIGADE HAVE KILLED SEVERAL INNOCENT PEOPLE ALSO RESPONSIBLE FOR KIDNAPPING AND KILLING OF THE PRIME MINISTER OF ITALLY ALDO MORO

THE JAPANESE RED ARMY ON THE 20TH MARCH 1995 ALIM SHINRIKYO USED NEON GAS IN THE TOKYO SUBWAY KILLED 7 AND INJURED 5700 INNOCENT POEPLE THEY WERE BUDDHIST NOT MUSLIMS

U.K FOR ABOUT 100 YEARS NOW THE IRA IRISH REPUBLICAN ARMY ARE CONDUCTING TERRORIST ATTACKS WHICH IN
1972 THREE BOMBS BLASTR KILLING 27 PEOPLE THEY ARE CATHOLICS NOT MUSLIMS,
IN 1974 TWO BOMBS BLAST IN GULFORD PUB KILLED 5 AND INJURED 44 THE SECOND BLAST IN BIRMINGHAM PUB KILLED 21 AND INJURED 182

JUST MENTIONING A FEW

1996 A BOMB BLAST IN MANCHESTER SHOPPING CENTER WERE ABOUT 206 INJURED

IN 1998 1ST AUGUST THE IRA PLANTED A CAR BOMB WHICH KILLED 35

15TH AUGUST 1998 OMAGH BOMB BLAST KILLED 29 OVER 330 INJURED

4TH MARCH 2001 BBC WAS BOMBED ALL BY IRA NOT MUSLIMS

IN SPAIN AND FRANCE THE ETA CONDUCTED 36 ATTACKS

IN AFRICA THERE ARE SO MANY BUT ONE OF THE MOST NOTORIOUS IS THE LORD SALVATION ARMY A CHRISTIAN TERRORIST ORGANISATION IN UGANDA THEY BRIAN WASH YOUNG CHILDREN TO COMMIT TERRIRIST ATTACKS NOT MUSLIMS

IN SRI LANKA THE MOST NOTORIOYUS ORGANIZATION IN THE WORLD EXPERT IN SUICIDE BOMBING THEY ARE HINDU NOT MUSLIMS

MAOISTS IN NEPAKL IN 7YRS CARRIED 99 ATTACKS NOT MUSLIMS

ATTF AND NLFF ARE CHRISTIAN TERRORIST GORUP IN NORTH EAST INDIA

2ND OCT 2004 44 HINDUS KILLED BY THEM NOT MUSLIMS

ULFA IN A SPAN OF 16yrs FROM 1990-2006 HAS CARRIED OUT 749 ATTACKS THEY ARE NON MUSLIMS.

JOESEPH STALLIN (KNOW AS UNCLE JOE) KILLED 20 MILLION. HUMAN BEIGN INCLUDING 14.5 MILLION WERE STARVED TO DEATH HE WAS NOT A MUSLIM

WHEN YOU GO TO CHINA MAO TSE TSUNG HAS KILLED OVER 15 MILLION HUMAN BEIGNS HE WAS A NON MUSLIM

BENITO MUSSOLINI OF ITALY KILLED 400,000 HUMAN BEINGS HE WAS A NON MUSLIM

ASHOKA IN ONE BATTLE ALONE OF KALINGA KILLED MORE THAN 100,000 PEOPLE HE WAS A HINDU NOT A MUSLIM

WE KNOW WE HAVE OUR BLACK SHEEP LIKE SADDAM HUSSAIN HISTORY TELLS US THAT HE KILLED A FEW 100 THOUSAND PEOPLE BUT THE EMBARGO PUT BY GEORGE BUSH AND U.S ALONE KILLED MORE THAN 500,000 IRAQI CHILDREN (HALF A MILLION) INNOCENT CHILDREN BY GEORGE BUSH A CHRISTIAN NOT A MUSLIM

WHEN WE ANALYSE WE CAN SURELY SAY WITHOUT ANY DOUBT THAT TERRORISM IS NOT A MUSLIM MONOPOLY, NOT ONLY THAT. IS NOT A MUSLIM MONOPOLY IT IS NOT EVEN ENCOURAGE IN ISLAM.

QURAN 5:32 SAYS IF ANYONE KILLS ANY HUMAN BEIGN WOULD BE AS IF HE HAD KILLED ALL MANKIND, AND IF ANYONE SAVE ANY HUMAN BEIGN IS AS IF HE HAS SAVED THE LIFE OF ALL HUMANITY.
ISLAM CONDEMS ALL FORMS OF TERRORISM[/

striktlymi:


The above is your own fabrication! God is Father to all!

God is a creator to all, not Father to all

alexis: striktlymi



So Sunnis and Shias are enemies? Are they not muslims? Why are they fighting and killing each other? Are innocent Christians fighting Boko Haram in northern Nigeria?

The issue here is not that all muslims are violent or that they don't understand the Quran. The Quran is like a set of logo-blocks, you can use it to build what you want. For a muslim that wants to be violent, the Quran legitimize such actions. For example:

Quran (8:12) - "I will cast terror into the hearts of those who disbelieve. Therefore strike off their heads and strike off every fingertip of them"

Quran (9:5) - "So when the sacred months have passed away, then slay the idolaters wherever you find them, and take them captive and besiege them and lie in wait for them in every ambush, then if they repent and keep up prayer and pay the poor-rate, leave their way free to them."

Clearly, the verses above are not DEFENSIVE

Read your bible and see what Jesus said to his diciples in Luke he said" he who has no sword should sell his garments and buy one".

Let me give another quotation from the new testament jesus said I quote "for those my enemies who do not want me to rule over them bring them here and cut off their heads in front of me"

alexis: striktlymi

So Sunnis and Shias are enemies? Are they not muslims? Why are they fighting and killing each other? Are innocent Christians fighting Boko Haram in northern Nigeria?

I NEVER said or implied the above. They are your words!!!

alexis:
The issue here is not that all muslims are violent or that they don't understand the Quran. The Quran is like a set of logo-blocks, you can use it to build what you want. For a muslim that wants to be violent, the Quran legitimize such actions. For example:

Quran (8:12) - "I will cast terror into the hearts of those who disbelieve. Therefore strike off their heads and strike off every fingertip of them"

Quran (9:5) - "So when the sacred months have passed away, then slay the idolaters wherever you find them, and take them captive and besiege them and lie in wait for them in every ambush, then if they repent and keep up prayer and pay the poor-rate, leave their way free to them."

Clearly, the verses above are not DEFENSIVE

I have tried to explain the above in an earlier post but let me see if I can be a bit more articulate in expressing my thoughts.

If we look at the verses you put up there in isolation, we definitely will see it in a very bad light. Hey, I was also shocked when I saw them for the first time.

After some research, I found out that the verses are simply misunderstood and taken out of context. Let's take Surat 9:5 as our case study...

The verse you quoted is:

Surat 9:5



Translated as:

And when the sacred months have passed, then kill the polytheists wherever you find them and capture them and besiege them and sit in wait for them at every place of ambush. But if they should repent, establish prayer, and give zakah, let them [go] on their way. Indeed, Allah is Forgiving and Merciful.


Now, looking at the above one would be tempted to think that the Quran permits indiscriminate killing of innocent people but note that the verse was written at a time of war and we know that the order given by Muhammad was to fight those who fight against them with some sense of morality...

Surah 2:190



Translated as:

Fight in the way of Allah those who fight you but do not transgress. Indeed. Allah does not like transgressors.

In other words, fighting for a Muslim is supposed to be out of self defense. The principle surrounding self defense states that one has the right to protect himself against an aggressor to the point of using deadly force if it is necessary...

Now take a look at the bold in that verse...despite this extraordinary case of a defensive war, Muslims are asked by the Quran not to continue fighting when the opposition has repented...for it is said that they should be allowed to go after the Zakat has been done...The Zakat is an obligatory alms given required from all Muslims.

Now this repentance really has nothing to do with them converting to Islam...as the previous verse (Surat 9:4) made mention of a treaty which the Muslim is permitted to make with his aggressor as long as the aggressor is faithful to the dictates of the treaty...see verse below:

Surah 9:4



Translated as:

Excepted are those with whom you made a treaty among the polytheists and then they have not been deficient toward you in anything or supported anyone against you; so complete for them their treaty until their term [has ended]. Indeed, Allah loves the righteous [who fear Him].

So unless I am presented with some evidence that the Muhammad or the Quran asks Muslims to kill innocent people, I still refuse to hold the position that the Quran or Muhammad encourages a 'war of blame'.

alexis:

God is a creator to all, not Father to all

That is your personal opinion which is against Sacred scriptures. Paul does not agree with you when he said:

Ephesians 4:6
New International Version (NIV)

6 one God and Father of all, who is over all and through all and in all.

FrostyZonn:

It's the unwritten rule, which can be determined by your common sense.

In religion u don't have unwritten rule u follow what ur God commands u. In the Quran we have only a muslim no sunni or shia. U only follow what God says just because someone say sunni or shia there is no bases. So u only take what God says.

striktlymi

Bring any one of those battles as an example and we will examine it together.

Sure, will do

He did permit his followers to rob the Quraysh caravans but this was after he and his followers were persecuted and forced to flee their homes. He did not start it..he only responded to an aggressor.

Who attacked him before he robbed caravans?

You are yet to show that I have been dishonest

Dishonest that not all the battles Mohammed and muslims involved in were strictly defensive

striktlymi:

The bold are your words not mine.

You are still yet to answer it

mahdino

Read your bible and see what Jesus said to his diciples in Luke he said" he who has no sword should sell his garments and buy one".

Another brain-washed malu hypnotized with 7th century Arabian way of thinking. So Jesus told him to buy a sword - then what? Where in the Bible did you read Jesus killed anyone? When you are in a public forum, learn to quote your reference so others can follow your line of thought

Let me give another quotation from the new testament jesus said I quote "for those my enemies who do not want me to rule over them bring them here and cut off their heads in front of me"[/quote]

Really, did you take time to read the parable Jesus was talking about? For your reference, the quote you mentioned is in Luke 19:27. Jesus used parables to explain concepts when he taught people and he did the same here:

Luke 19:

[b]11 And as they heard these things, he added and [size=15pt]spake a parable[/size], because he was nigh to Jerusalem, and because they thought that the kingdom of God should immediately appear.

12 He said therefore, A certain nobleman went into a far country to receive for himself a kingdom, and to return.

13 And he called his ten servants, and delivered them ten pounds, and said unto them, Occupy till I come.

14 But his citizens hated him, and sent a message after him, saying, We will not have this man to reign over us.

15 And it came to pass, that when he was returned, having received the kingdom, then he commanded these servants to be called unto him, to whom he had given the money, that he might know how much every man had gained by trading.

16 Then came the first, saying, Lord, thy pound hath gained ten pounds.

17 And he said unto him, Well, thou good servant: because thou hast been faithful in a very little, have thou authority over ten cities.

18 And the second came, saying, Lord, thy pound hath gained five pounds.

19 And he said likewise to him, Be thou also over five cities.

20 And another came, saying, Lord, behold, here is thy pound, which I have kept laid up in a napkin:

21 For I feared thee, because thou art an austere man: thou takest up that thou layedst not down, and reapest that thou didst not sow.

22 And he saith unto him, Out of thine own mouth will I judge thee, thou wicked servant. Thou knewest that I was an austere man, taking up that I laid not down, and reaping that I did not sow:

23 Wherefore then gavest not thou my money into the bank, that at my coming I might have required mine own with usury?

24 And he said unto them that stood by, Take from him the pound, and give it to him that hath ten pounds.

25 (And they said unto him, Lord, he hath ten pounds.)

26 For I say unto you, That unto every one which hath shall be given; and from him that hath not, even that he hath shall be taken away from him.

27 But those mine enemies, which would not that I should reign over them, bring hither, and slay them before me.[/b]

Next time, learn to research before you display your ignorance publicly. Jesus never taught violence, never encouraged it and never killed anyone.

striktlymi

I NEVER said or implied the above. They are your words!!!

Now now, you have to be honest. You said muslims fight in self defense and fight their known enemies. My question is - are Shias and Sunnis enemies? Don't they belong to the same house in Islam?

I have tried to explain the above in an earlier post but let me see if I can be a bit more articulate in expressing my thoughts.

If we look at the verses you put up there in isolation, we definitely will see it in a very bad light. Hey, I was also shocked when I saw them for the first time.

After some research, I found out that the verses are simply misunderstood and taken out of context. Let's take Surat 9:5 as our case study...

The verse you quoted is:

Surat 9:5

Translated as:

And when the sacred months have passed, then kill the polytheists wherever you find them and capture them and besiege them and sit in wait for them at every place of ambush. But if they should repent, establish prayer, and give zakah, let them [go] on their way. Indeed, Allah is Forgiving and Merciful.

Now, looking at the above one would be tempted to think that the Quran permits indiscriminate killing of innocent people but note that the verse was written at a time of war and we know that the order given by Muhammad was to fight those who fight against them with some sense of morality...

Surah 2:190

Translated as:

Fight in the way of Allah those who fight you but do not transgress. Indeed. Allah does not like transgressors.

In other words, fighting for a Muslim is supposed to be out of self defense. The principle surrounding self defense states that one has the right to protect himself against an aggressor to the point of using deadly force if it is necessary...

Now take a look at the bold in that verse...despite this extraordinary case of a defensive war, Muslims are asked by the Quran not to continue fighting when the opposition has repented...for it is said that they should be allowed to go after the Zakat has been done...The Zakat is an obligatory alms given required from all Muslims.

Now this repentance really has nothing to do with them converting to Islam...as the previous verse (Surat 9:4) made mention of a treaty which the Muslim is permitted to make with his aggressor as long as the aggressor is faithful to the dictates of the treaty...see verse below:

Surah 9:4

Translated as:

Excepted are those with whom you made a treaty among the polytheists and then they have not been deficient toward you in anything or supported anyone against you; so complete for them their treaty until their term [has ended]. Indeed, Allah loves the righteous [who fear Him].

So unless I am presented with some evidence that the Muhammad or the Quran asks Muslims to kill innocent people, I still refuse to hold the position that the Quran or Muhammad encourages a 'war of blame'

Bros, the context can be gotten from the Hadith, you don't have to play the Islamic scholar game. Mohammed was clear on what he meant:

Bukhari (52:177) - Allah's Apostle said, "The Hour will not be established until you fight with the Jews, and the stone behind which a Jew will be hiding will say. "O Muslim! There is a Jew hiding behind me, so kill him."

Bukhari (52:256) - The Prophet... was asked whether it was permissible to attack the pagan warriors at night with the probability of exposing their women and children to danger. The Prophet replied, "They (i.e. women and children) are from them (i.e. pagans)."

Bukhari (8:387) - Allah's Apostle said, "I have been ordered to fight the people till they say: 'None has the right to be worshipped but Allah'. And if they say so, pray like our prayers, face our Qibla and slaughter as we slaughter, then their blood and property will be sacred to us and we will not interfere with them except legally."

Please tell us from the Hadith I posted where Mohammed is acting in self defense?

striktlymi:

That is your personal opinion which is against Sacred scriptures. Paul does not agree with you when he said:

Ephesians 4:6
New International Version (NIV)

6 one God and Father of all, who is over all and through all and in all.

Around AD 49, a council convened in Jerusalem to decide the matter of whether Gentile converts to Christianity needed to undergo circumcision in order to be accepted into full fellowship. The decision was a difficult one to make, and early Church leaders found themselves at the crossroads of Jewish culture and Christian doctrine. When the council issued its decision, it forever changed the landscape of Christianity and created a divide that would later threaten to fracture Christianity. Ephesians, and to a lesser extent Colossians, documents some of the concerns and issues associated with that decision.

Here, Paul was referring to God as the Father to both Jews and Christians because we believe in Him. A muslim doesn't believe in the Christian God, how can He be a Father to them? I don't believe in Allah, how can he be a father to me?