May I also add that the 'rapture' is a misnomer when used to refer a secret taking away.

frosbel: Let me start by saying there is a difference between antichrist and Man of Sin.

Paul talks about Man of Sin and John talks about antichrists.

Waiting earnestly...

DrummaBoy:

I could give the scriptural references. I taught this same thing in church one day and have since been an outcast because I showed very clearly the link between this private jet owning pastors and the anti-Christ. I would do the scriptural references when I can grab the time.

I would love to hear you. The issue here is, i am not against what any one says but it is vital that we seperate sentiments from scriptures.
I would not want to spark an argument (yet). I await your scriptures. How could the mark of the beast be in force when the anti christ is not yet reigning? How do banks come into play here in the present(as you propose) and not "futuristically"? Prosperity gospel is the anti christ's gospel? Lol...
I honestly await your comments. I trust God not to go down into argument here....

frosbel: May I also add that the 'rapture' is a misnomer when used to refer a secret taking away.

Sir, give us a detailed teaching, then we ask questions. Lol.

Before you know it, people will start responding to this in bits and we wont get any teaching. U get what I mean?

@ Drummaboy, I am a mod o, I have been one for years now. And you know you cant satisfy everybody, that's why ppl will always complain.

Tgirl4real: @ Drummaboy, I am a mod o, I have been one for years now. And you know you cant satisfy everybody, that's why ppl will always complain.

Yeah. Right. I gerrit!

alexleo: Can we have start from Matthew 24;1-44


1. Jesus left the temple and was walking away when his disciples came up to him to call his attention to its buildings. 2 “Do you see all these things?” he asked. “Truly I tell you, not one stone here will be left on another; every one will be thrown down.”

3 As Jesus was sitting on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to him privately. “Tell us,” they said, “when will this happen, and what will be the sign of your coming and of the end of the age?”

4 Jesus answered: “Watch out that no one deceives you. 5 For many will come in my name, claiming, ‘I am the Messiah,’ and will deceive many. 6 You will hear of wars and rumors of wars, but see to it that you are not alarmed. Such things must happen, but the end is still to come. 7 Nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom. There will be famines and earthquakes in various places. 8 All these are the beginning of birth pains.

9 “Then you will be handed over to be persecuted and put to death, and you will be hated by all nations because of me. 10 At that time many will turn away from the faith and will betray and hate each other, 11 and many false prophets will appear and deceive many people. 12 Because of the increase of wickedness, the love of most will grow cold, 13 but the one who stands firm to the end will be saved. 14 And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in the whole world as a testimony to all nations, and then the end will come.

15 “So when you see standing in the holy place ‘the abomination that causes desolation,’[a] spoken of through the prophet Daniel—let the reader understand— 16 then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains. 17 Let no one on the housetop go down to take anything out of the house. 18 Let no one in the field go back to get their cloak. 19 How dreadful it will be in those days for pregnant women and nursing mothers! 20 Pray that your flight will not take place in winter or on the Sabbath. 21 For then there will be great distress, unequaled from the beginning of the world until now—and never to be equaled again.

22 “If those days had not been cut short, no one would survive, but for the sake of the elect those days will be shortened. 23 At that time if anyone says to you, ‘Look, here is the Messiah!’ or, ‘There he is!’ do not believe it. 24 For false messiahs and false prophets will appear and perform great signs and wonders to deceive, if possible, even the elect. 25 See, I have told you ahead of time.

26 “So if anyone tells you, ‘There he is, out in the wilderness,’ do not go out; or, ‘Here he is, in the inner rooms,’ do not believe it. 27 For as lightning that comes from the east is visible even in the west, so will be the coming of the Son of Man. 28 Wherever there is a carcass, there the vultures will gather.

29 “Immediately after the distress of those days

“‘the sun will be darkened,
and the moon will not give its light;
the stars will fall from the sky,
and the heavenly bodies will be shaken.’[b]

30 “Then will appear the sign of the Son of Man in heaven. And then all the peoples of the earth[c] will mourn when they see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven, with power and great glory.[d] 31 And he will send his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other.

32 “Now learn this lesson from the fig tree: As soon as its twigs get tender and its leaves come out, you know that summer is near. 33 Even so, when you see all these things, you know that it[e] is near, right at the door. 34 Truly I tell you, this generation will certainly not pass away until all these things have happened. 35 Heaven and earth will pass away, but my words will never pass away.
The Day and Hour Unknown

36 “But about that day or hour no one knows, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son,[f] but only the Father. 37 As it was in the days of Noah, so it will be at the coming of the Son of Man. 38 For in the days before the flood, people were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, up to the day Noah entered the ark; 39 and they knew nothing about what would happen until the flood came and took them all away. That is how it will be at the coming of the Son of Man. 40 Two men will be in the field; one will be taken and the other left. 41 Two women will be grinding with a hand mill; one will be taken and the other left.

42 “Therefore keep watch, because you do not know on what day your Lord will come. 43 But understand this: If the owner of the house had known at what time of night the thief was coming, he would have kept watch and would not have let his house be broken into. 44 So you also must be ready, because the Son of Man will come at an hour when you do not expect him.

I think its better we discuss it within the scope of the bible and not what we think.

We have to a bit careful with this passage, because not all of it is talking about the end of the world. Some of it pertains to the persecutions the Jews suffered in 70AD when the Romans brought down the temple and killed many Jews.
Notice they asked 2 questions of Jesus:

1: when will this happen (the temple being destroyed)
2:and what will be the sign of your coming and of the end of the age?” (endtimes)

Luke 21 is also helpful to read alongside Matthew 24.

JesusisLord85:

We have to a bit careful with this passage, because not all of it is talking about the end of the world. Some of it pertains to the persecutions the Jews suffered in 70AD when the Romans brought down the temple and killed many Jews.
Notice they asked 2 questions of Jesus:

1: when will this happen (the temple being destroyed)
2:and what will be the sign of your coming and of the end of the age?” (endtimes)

Luke 21 is also helpful to read alongside Matthew 24.

perfectly said.

frosbel:

perfectly said.

But some have said it will be fulfilled twice.

The temple will be rebuilt again and d " abomination that causes desolation" will occur when the man of lawlessness will proclaim himself God.

What do you guys say?

Tgirl4real:

I have held this view for some time, but we are all learning.

Can you please help us with a detailed teaching in a chronological manner?

Same for Shdemidemi too.

Thanks.

Ok, so here is a my view. I'll start with this rapture

The idea that Christians will be raptured before the tribulation period was first considered in the 1830 by a man called John Nelson Darby - a GENTILE, can you imagine. This is not biblical. Period. Type 'rapture' in wikipedia and you can read this, and find out more about this man if you wish.

So holy spirit had been revealing truths since Pentecost, and it is now only in 1830's, in the United Kingdom, did God now reveal it to a gentile. What a farcical idea.

The reason why this guy, and many people think the rapture is before the tribulation is because they confuse the tribulation with God’s wrath. Let me show you these are separate:

Matthew 24:29 29 "Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken"

Ok, so the sun and moon will be darkened. According to Revelaiton, this does not happen until after the 6th seal is opened:

Revelation 6:12 “12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood”

So what else happened AFTER the tribulation, AFTER this moon darkening takes place?

13-16 "and the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind. 14 And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places. 15 And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains
16 and said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb: 17 for the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?

God's wrath and tribulation are indeed separate events, with tribulation some period beforehand.

So why does tribulation occur?
Matthew 13:21 “ yet hath he not root in himself, but dureth for a while: for when tribulation or persecution ariseth because of the word, by and by he is offended”

John 16:1“These things have I spoken unto you that ye should not be offended”

Tribulation is persecution that arises because of the word. They are going through it because they are making a stand for the word of God.

Matthew 24:13 " But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved"
Endure what? Persecution/tribulation. They will receive their reward in heaven, they will not disappear into a cloud.

Interestingly, if you do a search, of the 22 times tribulation is mentioned in the bible it is talking about saved people going through tribulation. The other 2 times, it is not referring to end times, it is simply talking about people going through persecution in general.

John 16:33 “These things I have spoken unto you, that in me ye might have peace. In the world ye shall have tribulation: but be of good cheer; I have overcome the world.”

Acts 14:22 “ Confirming the souls of the disciples, and exhorting them to continue in the faith, and that we must through much tribulation enter into the kingdom of God”

So these people think the greatest opportunity for us to prove our faith is when God will just carry you away? I think not.

Ok I notice I am not explaining timeline but rather disproving the pre-trib rapture nonsense. But when you can read the word through the correct lense, it will make more sense - not to say I am an expert. I will post seperately on timeline

JesusisLord85:

Ok, so here is a my view. I'll start with this rapture

The idea that Christians will be raptured before the tribulation period was first considered in the 1830 by a man called John Nelson Darby - a GENTILE, can you imagine. This is not biblical. Period. Type 'rapture' in wikipedia and you can read this, and find out more about this man if you wish.

So holy spirit had been revealing truths since Pentecost, and it is now only in 1830's, in the United Kingdom, did God now reveal it to a gentile. What a farcical idea.

The reason why this guy, and many people think the rapture is before the tribulation is because they confuse the tribulation with God’s wrath. Let me show you these are separate:

Matthew 24:29 29 "Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken"

Ok, so the sun and moon will be darkened. According to Revelaiton, this does not happen until after the 6th seal is opened:

Revelation 6:12 “12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood”

So what else happened AFTER the tribulation, AFTER this moon darkening takes place?

13-16 "and the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind. 14 And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places. 15 And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains
16 and said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb: 17 for the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?

God's wrath and tribulation are indeed separate events, with tribulation some period beforehand.

So why does tribulation occur?
Matthew 13:21 “ yet hath he not root in himself, but dureth for a while: for when tribulation or persecution ariseth because of the word, by and by he is offended”

John 16:1“These things have I spoken unto you that ye should not be offended”

Tribulation is persecution that arises because of the word. They are going through it because they are making a stand for the word of God.

Matthew 24:13 " But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved"
Endure what? Persecution/tribulation. They will receive their reward in heaven, they will not disappear into a cloud.

Interestingly, if you do a search, of the 22 times tribulation is mentioned in the bible it is talking about saved people going through tribulation. The other 2 times, it is not referring to end times, it is simply talking about people going through persecution in general.

John 16:33 “These things I have spoken unto you, that in me ye might have peace. In the world ye shall have tribulation: but be of good cheer; I have overcome the world.”

Acts 14:22 “ Confirming the souls of the disciples, and exhorting them to continue in the faith, and that we must through much tribulation enter into the kingdom of God”

So these people think the greatest opportunity for us to prove our faith is when God will just carry you away? I think not.

Ok I notice I am not explaining timeline but rather disproving the pre-trib rapture nonsense. But when you can read the word through the correct lense, it will make more sense - not to say I am an expert. I will post seperately on timeline

And nobody is quarreling with you. Just state your own view and forget about other people's view. Your own may not also be right after all. Present your views and allow people to ask you question. Everything must not be about condemning others.

Thank u very much sir. I am glad to still be awake to read this. I very much agree with this view.

On my way home this evening, one of the questions that came to mind against pretrib is why are we gonna escape persecution when the people before us didnt. Is it not unto the same body we are baptised?

If the end time is for the Jews, why were the gentile-chtristians persecuted during the

persecution of the early church.

I am waiting for the others to present their case or second.

Thanks y'all

Tgirl4real:

But some have said it will be fulfilled twice.

The temple will be rebuilt again and d " abomination that causes desolation" will occur when the man of lawlessness will proclaim himself God.

What do you guys say?

Temple will not be rebuilt, not sure where you got this from .

The Lawless one is the Pope and a lot of MOG , the Fathers of the Mystery of Iniquity and the Originators of Lawlessness in the physical church , ho take the place of Christ in the church ( temple ) and bring in damnable heresies, fables and myths, thereby overthrowing the faith of many.

The Man of sin and antichrists have been here for over a thousand years.

Will try and expatiate before weekend as very busy at work for the next few days , for now will be commenting with a few sentences.

alexleo:

And nobody is quarreling with you. Just state your own view and forget about other people's view. Your own may not also be right after all. Present your views and allow people to ask you question. Everything must not be about condemning others.

I don't think he is fighting anyone Alex.

So timeline.

Revelation is akin to 1st and 2nd Samuel, 1st and 2nd Kings, and 1st and 2nd Chronicles..or even the gospels. It is the same story told more than once. In this case twice. Slice the book in half. Chapters 1-11, and 12-22, that should make it more easy to read.

So earlier I mentioned that the devil knows his time is short. This is after he is cast down to earth. You see, I used to think the devil was in hell - he is not.

1 Peter 5:8 "Be sober, be vigilant; because your adversary the devil, as a roaring lion, walketh about, seeking whom he may devour"

And we know from the book of Job that he actually goes between earth and the heavenly realm conversing with God.

Job 1:6-7 "Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the Lord, and Satan came also among them. 7 And the Lord said unto Satan, Whence comest thou? Then Satan answered the Lord, and said, From going to and fro in the earth, and from walking up and down in it."

Revelation explains that he will be cast down upon the earth after a war in heaven:

Revelation 12:7-12
"And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels, 8 and prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven. 9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him. 10 And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night. 11 And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death. 12 Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time."

This is where the tribulation comes in. He goes to persecute believers:

Revelation 13:7 “And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations.”

*next, someone here will tell me the saints are the Jews only* lol

At the end of the tribulation, this is when the mood darkens. It is SIGN that our salvation is near.

Genesis 1:14 "And God said, Let there be lights in the firmament of the heaven to divide the day from the night; and let them be for signs, and for seasons, and for days, and years:"

At this point God will pour his wrath. Sodom and Gomorrah has prophetic significance:

Luke 17:28- 30: "Likewise also as it was in the days of Lot; they did eat, they drank, they bought, they sold, they planted, they builded; But the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all. Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed."

Praise God for the word of truth.

Wow!

This is another view - the pope?

I think not!

Well, does that mean the abomination prophecied has taken place?

My question, if the 'man of sin' has been revealed that long ago, why are we still here then? Lol

I should go to bed really. Talk to you guys 2mrw.

Still waiting for a detailed article o.

frosbel:

Temple will not be rebuilt, not sure where you got this from .

The Lawless one is the Pope and a lot of MOG , the Fathers of the Mystery of Iniquity and the Originator of Lawlessness in the physical church who take the place of Christ in the church ( temple ) and bring in damnable heresies, fables and myths, thereby overthrowing the faith of many.

The Man of sin and antichrists have been here for over a thousand years.

I saw the addition you made. No probs sir.

Gud nyt.

1 cor 15:50

51 Behold, I tell you a mystery: We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed— 52 in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. 53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.

1 thess 4
13 But I do not want you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning those who have fallen asleep, lest you sorrow as others who have no hope. 14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who sleep in Jesus.[b]

15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep. 16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord. 18 Therefore comfort one another with these words.


I believe all this will happen followed by a seven year tribulation
Daniel 9
27 Then he shall confirm a covenant with many for one week;
But in the middle of the week
He shall bring an end to sacrifice and offering.
And on the wing of abominations shall be one who makes desolate,
Even until the consummation, which is determined,
Is poured out on the desolate.”

and the second coming of Christ to set up the reign of Christ [Zechariah 14:1-9

Breakdown-


The Book of Revelation primarily deals with those final seven years before the return of Christ at His Second Coming; then the setting up of His Kingdom upon the earth. This seven years is primarily God dealing with the Nation of Israel; however, all the world will become involved.

Three major events that will take place

1. The appearance of the Anti-christ when he will sign that seven-year peace treaty with the Nation of Israel, which will again kick God's time clock back in gear, as it has been stopped now all during the Church Age.

2. The appearance of those two witnesses. They will come to the Nation of Israel in Jerusalem. And they will begin proclaiming God's Word to the Nation of Israel, and out of the ministry of these two...

3. God is going to seal and commission the 144,000 young Jewish men whom God will use to circumvent the globe. They won't be preaching the Gospel of Grace as we know it, but, rather, they will be reverting back again to the Gospel of the Kingdom as it was being proclaimed at the time of Christ and Peter and the eleven.

There is a vast difference between the Gospel of Grace and the Gospel of the Kingdom. When you understand that, the Bible is much less confusing. At that time, the Age of Grace has ended and the Church is gone. A person will no longer have the opportunity to join a local congregation. But rather these 144,000 will be telling the world that the King is coming. After all, that was the message in Christ's earthly ministry. He Himself referred to it more than once as the Gospel of the Kingdom. The King and His Kingdom were about to come on the scene. Of course Israel rejected that, and the King was crucified. God raised Him from the dead, called Him back to heaven to sit at the Father's right hand until His enemies should be made His footstool. That `until' signifies the time when He will once again deal with His Covenant people of Israel.

Mathew
14 And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in all the world as a witness to all the nations, and then the end will come.

If we divide this verse into two,

'And this gospel of the kingdom'

This Gospel of the Kingdom. Not the Gospel of Grace. We preach today the Gospel of Grace that you must believe for your salvation, that Jesus died for your sins, was buried, and rose from the dead. Jesus Himself revealed that to the Apostle Paul, and Paul alone, in I Corinthians 15:1-4, Romans 10:9-10 and many other places in Paul's writing. But Jesus and the twelve preached the Gospel of the Kingdom which is believing for salvation that Jesus was the Messiah, repentance, and baptism.

"...shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come."

Isn't that plain? But you have to know which Gospel. Paul tells us in Galatians 2:7-9 that there were two Gospels, one that he (Paul) preached to the Gentiles (uncircumcision) by revelation from Jesus Christ. And the other that John the Baptist, Jesus, Peter and the 12 preached to the Jews or Nation of Israel (circumcision).

Jesus said, "The same Gospel of the Kingdom that He preached in His three years of ministry will be proclaimed again during the Tribulation." Now Just stop and think. If that Good News is proclaimed to every nation on earth, that the King is coming, it will last for the whole seven years. Notice Jesus did not mention the Church Age and the Gospel of Grace. He skips over it from His ministry to the Tribulation. And that will be the message that the 144,000 young Jewish men will preach to the world. The King is coming, and indeed He will be!

All these things will happen as soon as God has completed His work with the Gentile Body of Christ. He will then turn to the Jews, the Jew is going to have to go through those seven years of Tribulation before he enjoys all the blessings of Christ's return.

Romans 11:25

"I do not want you to be ignorant of this mystery, brothers, so that you may not be conceited: Israel has experienced a hardening in part until the full number of the Gentiles has come in."

shdemidemi: 1 cor 15:50

"...shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come."

Isn't that plain? But you have to know which Gospel. Paul tells us in Galatians 2:7-9 that there were two Gospels, one that he (Paul) preached to the Gentiles (uncircumcision) by revelation from Jesus Christ. And the other that John the Baptist, Jesus, Peter and the 12 preached to the Jews or Nation of Israel (circumcision).

Jesus said, "The same Gospel of the Kingdom that He preached in His three years of ministry will be proclaimed again during the Tribulation." Now Just stop and think. If that Good News is proclaimed to every nation on earth, that the King is coming, it will last for the whole seven years. Notice Jesus did not mention the Church Age and the Gospel of Grace. He skips over it from His ministry to the Tribulation. And that will be the message that the 144,000 young Jewish men will preach to the world. The King is coming, and indeed He will be!

First of all, the gospel has been preached across the world:

1 Colossiasn 1:23 " if you continue in your faith, established and firm, and do not move from the hope held out in the gospel. This is the gospel that you heard and that has been proclaimed to every creature under heaven, and of which I, Paul, have become a servant."

Secondly, Galatians 2:7-9 does not speak of two gospels. All it means is that Peter and co preached the gospel to the Jews. Jesus preached it only to the Jews. Paul was given the special task of preaching it to the pagan gentiles, and they which used to be under the covenant but were scattered around the earth after the exile into Assyria.

Amos 3:7 "Surely the Lord God will do nothing, but he revealeth his secret unto his servants the prophets."

2 gospel theory is not in the prophets. If Paul did teach that, it would make him a false teacher.

Shalom

JesusisLord85:

First of all, the gospel has been preached across the world:

1 Colossiasn 1:23 " if you continue in your faith, established and firm, and do not move from the hope held out in the gospel. This is the gospel that you heard and that has been proclaimed to every creature under heaven, and of which I, Paul, have become a servant."

Secondly, Galatians 2:7-9 does not speak of two gospels. All it means is that Peter and co preached the gospel to the Jews. Jesus preached it only to the Jews. Paul was given the special task of preaching it to the pagan gentiles, and they which used to be under the covenant but were scattered around the earth after the exile into Assyria.

Amos 3:7 "Surely the Lord God will do nothing, but he revealeth his secret unto his servants the prophets."

2 gospel theory is not in the prophets. If Paul did teach that, it would make him a false teacher.

Shalom

1)You still do not understand the difference between the kingdom gospel and the gospel of grace. Until you get the difference you would never get what I am talking about.

2) Acts 2:37 Peter was asked a question

37 Now when they heard this, they were cut to the heart, and said to Peter and the rest of the apostles, “Men and brethren, what shall we do?”

Acts 16:30 Paul was asked a similar question

30 And he brought them out and said, “Sirs, what must I do to be saved?”

Peter's answer-


"Then Peter said unto them, ‘Repent, and be baptised [/b]every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the [b]remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost,’"


Paul's answer-

"And they (Paul and Silas) said, ‘Believe on The Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house.’"


If you don't see the difference in the two gospels, I can't help bro.

JesusisLord85:
Ok I notice I am not explaining timeline but rather disproving the pre-trib rapture nonsense. But when you can read the word through the correct lense, it will make more sense - not to say I am an expert. I will post seperately on timeline

Not understanding something does not make it nonsense. The bible makes it clear in several places about the 7 yr period which is divided into 3.5 yrs each. the first half of the 3.5 years is when the antichrist makes false peace with the kings of the earth... after this the elect is raptured... the devil proclaims himself God in the temple on Jerusalem and pours his wrath on the earth. At the end of this time... the Messiah comes for the final judgement. These things are very clearly stated in the bible.

Will post as i go along.

Hmmm.. Surprised to see david here...

davidylan:

Not understanding something does not make it nonsense. The bible makes it clear in several places about the 7 yr period which is divided into 3.5 yrs each. the first half of the 3.5 years is when the antichrist makes false peace with the kings of the earth... after this the elect is raptured... the devil proclaims himself God in the temple on Jerusalem and pours his wrath on the earth. At the end of this time... the Messiah comes for the final judgement. These things are very clearly stated in the bible.

Will post as i go along.

Erm, yeah, why don't you post some scriptures. All those things are mentioned, you just have them in wrong order. God's wrath and devil's wrath are two different things

davidylan:

Not understanding something does not make it nonsense. The bible makes it clear in several places about the 7 yr period which is divided into 3.5 yrs each. the first half of the 3.5 years is when the antichrist makes false peace with the kings of the earth... after this the elect is raptured... the devil proclaims himself God in the temple on Jerusalem and pours his wrath on the earth. At the end of this time... the Messiah comes for the final judgement. These things are very clearly stated in the bible.

Will post as i go along.

Interesting but interestingly wrong.

Kindly provide supporting scriptures if you may.

shdemidemi:

1)You still do not understand the difference between the kingdom gospel and the gospel of grace. Until you get the difference you would never get what I am talking about.

2) Acts 2:37 Peter was asked a question

37 Now when they heard this, they were cut to the heart, and said to Peter and the rest of the apostles, “Men and brethren, what shall we do?”

Acts 16:30 Paul was asked a similar question

30 And he brought them out and said, “Sirs, what must I do to be saved?”

Peter's answer-


"Then Peter said unto them, ‘Repent, and be baptised [/b]every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the [b]remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost,’"


Paul's answer-

"And they (Paul and Silas) said, ‘Believe on The Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house.’"


If you don't see the difference in the two gospels, I can't help bro.

Your whole doctrine rests on this idea that there are two gospels This is what precludes you from grasping the truth. I must say, you are certainly the FISRT person I have met who believes there are two messages. And your comments above suggest that there are also two "narrow gates" - one for the Jews that believe, and one for the gentile converts. What is also more interesting is that the "narrow gate" for the gentile seems to be as wide as the gate to hell: no need to repent, no need to go through tribulation, faith void of action (without works), I could go on.

Well, pre-tribulation rapture was created in 1830's, maybe God did appear to that gentleman to present the doctrine, and maybe he appeared to you too to present a foreign gospel to that which is in the Word.

Matthew 7:21-23
"Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven. 22 Many will say to Me in that day, ‘Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?’ 23 And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!"

That sounds to me like many 'believers' today. For the, to have prophesied in His name and cast out demons, they MUST have at least 'believed' in the carnal sense. But they did not enter the Kingdom. Stop deceiving people with this cheap grace message.

1 John 2:3 "Now by this we know that we know Him, if we keep His commandments."

Revelation 22:14 " Blessed are those who do His commandments, that they may have the right to the tree of life, and may enter through the gates into the city."

The problem is this. When the Hebrews talked about 'belief', it was a different concept to that taught by the Greek.
Mark 9:24 "And straightway the father of the child cried out, and said with tears, Lord, I believe; help thou mine unbelief"

That sentence makes sense to someone like Paul, who is a Hebrew. That makes no sense to us. Our idea of belief is based on cognition - to accept as true/real.
This is not what is meant when it says "Abraham 'believed' God...". You would think most of the patriachs 'believed' also, but they were full of sin.

See what God says to Isaac "And I will make your descendants numerous like the stars of heaven and I will give to your seed all these lands and all the nations of the land will be blessed through your seed because Abraham heard my voice and obeyed my charge and my commands and my decrees and my teachings". Genesis 26:4,5

These people did not mean "believe" in the way we understand it. Theirs was proved by action. Do a search on ancient hebrew + belief and you will find much better explanations of this than I can give you.

Shalom

Really a learner here.lol

alexleo:

And nobody is quarreling with you. Just state your own view and forget about other people's view. Your own may not also be right after all. Present your views and allow people to ask you question. Everything must not be about condemning others.

I can't like this post enough.....

JesusisLord85:
These people did not mean "believe" in the way we understand it. Theirs was proved by action. Do a search on ancient hebrew + belief and you will find much better explanations of this than I can give you.

Do you know the New Testament was not written in Hebrew but in Greek.

The Greek word for believe is pistis

It means trusting

“Abraham believed ( trusted) God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.”[b] 4 Now to him who works, the wages are not counted as grace but as debt.

Wow!

Thanks guys. Thanks bro demi for your input.

My question, would have been better on the gospel thread though:

Did Peter continue to preach salvation by works, circumcision after he was challenged by Paul?

@ bro Jesus,

What about scripture that says Abraham believed and it was imputed to him as righteousness?

Tgirl4real: @ Drummaboy, I am a mod o, I have been one for years now. And you know you cant satisfy everybody, that's why ppl will always complain.

yes our madam. I say it too. Seems youre doing a good job there. We hail you madam

Tgirl4real: Thank u very much sir. I am glad to still be awake to read this. I very much agree with this view.

On my way home this evening, one of the questions that came to mind against pretrib is why are we gonna escape persecution when the people before us didnt. Is it not unto the same body we are baptised?

If the end time is for the Jews, why were the gentile-chtristians persecuted during the

persecution of the early church.

the time is not for the jews alone. I thought the tribulation was a time of Gods wrath, not just persecution. The bible says we have escaped Gods wrath as christians. I also saw in revelation that the beast will wage war against the saints AND WILL PREVAIL. Do u realize the gravity of that scripture?