CodeTemplar:
The market will always be there for every field and open to skilled people or self taught people

asalimpo:

dont b emotionally vested in your reasoning. It beclouds clear reasoning

CodeTemplar:
There is no emotional influence in my submissions here. I only showed you why it will be wrong to claim CS degree is a waste of four years as the knowledge acquired are always relevant to CS fields but may not help the average CS grad be a proficient programmer at time of graduation.
You appear to be too proud to accept other people's valid views when contradictory to yours and that explains the sudden attack on the messenger and not the message.

asalimpo:
dont b emotionally vested in your viewpoint. It beclouds clear reasoning

true. But markets are not static systems. They r in different states. Declining,static, booming, etc. The state affects the reactions of players. In d case of d i.t market ,it is in a booming to stable state in certain areas. Web nd mobile. This state combined with low barriers to entry has incited an influx of players akin to d way,the prospects of gold led to d gold rush in america centuries ago. There is similarity btwn d american goldrush nd current i.t markets. Or if you like a more recent example,the dot com bubble of the early 2000s. Now during the web (stable) and phone nd ai (booming) mkt, every1 is getting in. Including a large influx of low quality suppliers. It's inevitable. In the dot com bubble,the subpar companies died out. But few thrived to this day.e.g Amazon.com,yahoo.com etc. This influx of coders of varying degree in the booming segmnts has nothng to do with mode of learning. In all mkts they r suppliers of varying degrees. Same in tech. As d mkt matures,the weak will b shaken out,like it happened in the dot com era. You hav seen a lot of low quality self taughts and wrongly GENERALIZED tht ALL self taughts are d same and the symptoms you've observed are peculiar nd arise as a result of the learning mode.

CodeTemplar:
Programming is a complex and very broad field that needs a dedicated university program like computer science to teach its principles in formal setting.
People celebrating their ability to code for loops and a few other aspect of some languages as a substitute for CS degree are being delusional.

Just like people confuse Comp Engr degree for repair of PCs ( desktop and laptops ). Computer Sci. isn't exactly programming.
It is the science around scalable and efficient computing. That's why they may explain basic hardware that runs programs to a CS grad and teach him/her design patterns, computer architecture etc

asalimpo:


this is what you said, that led to my initial response. It's different from what u are saying now.
You classed programming by self education as blue collar and rote (mechanical rather than intellectual). To which i countered. I pointed out tht self programmng and work can b as intellectually demanding and equivalent to any discipline out there! And is far above blue collar work ... This has been crux of the argumnt.

airsaylongcon:


This is where there's a difference. Computer Science is NOT about programming! Programming/Developing is the "OND" of computing. Can I develop? YES. Do I currently do so? NO because job responsibilities have escalated. You talked about when last I used time analysis. It's like asking when last the cylinders in your car's engine were pressure tested. Probably only during manufacturing. BUT if they weren't you'd not be driving today. The intricacies in safely pressure testing is part of what sets a mechanical engineer aside from a mechanic. The theories of Computing is what sets aside a Computer SCIENTIST from a programmer/developer. Think about it, if your DFS algorithm wasn't time optimal would a developer use. But the developer has absolutely no care in the world how the algorithm evolved for him to use. Computer Science transcends development. The fact that what the world sees is the job of the developer does not now then reduce computing to that. Do you know the volume of research on going that common developers cannot even begin to comprehend

CodeTemplar:
Please stop mentioning me if you won't stop outright twisting of fact. I likened the ignorant perception around CS to Comp Engr.

CodeTemplar:
Please stop mentioning me if you won't stop outright twisting of fact. I likened the ignorant perception around CS to Comp Engr.

asalimpo:

the governmnt can try to regulate programming but will fail woefully. Except they can censure the internet and police every citizen. The only thing "regulation" will achieve is in creating a closed system and a niche and mystify the field. It will drive up prices everywhere. Programmers will earn mor. Be more respected. Hav initials nd titles they can append to their names etc and have greater self esteem. All fair nd good,but in d long run, it will stiffle the rate of innovation resulting in more losses overall.
In d current free mkt system, barrier to entry is very low. No excessive bureaucracy. The good ones rise to d top, by their works. Mediocres stay at their level. To make money,you sell a product-software or service- no dangling of paper bf anybody making it possible for ppl to earn from their works right away.

Febup:


Most of the innovations today were developed by those with a degree in Computer Science or Software Engineering.
true. I'm not disputing that. People without degrees nd formal education hav also played their part too,though they're never as acknowledged
WhatsApp the world's biggest mobile messaging service - 1. Brian Acton: Degree in computer science. 2. Jan Koum - Became interested in
programming he enrolled at San Jose State University.
you point him enrolling but never mention him dropping out? Proving tht university is not take credit for his work

C++ - Bjarne Stroustrup PhD in computer science.

Java - James Gosling: Bachelor of Science, M.A. and Ph.D. all in computer science.

Linux - Linus Torvalds: Between 1988 and 1996 graduated with a master's degree in computer science.

to design a language like c++ at the time nd engineer a virtual machine, requires some deep knowledge of theory. Computer scientists bother with the theory, programmers take those baked theories nd build mega projects with them. The two fields are complementary.

Jquery - John Resig: Graduated with a degree in Computer Science.

jquery isnt what it is because of the authors cs knowledge. Another programmer without a knowledge of cs could equally hav created it.


Adobe Photoshop, Acrobat Reader the Portable Document Format (PDF) and Adobe Creative Suite - 1. John Edward Warnock degree in electrical engineering and computer science. 2. Charles Geschke PhD in computer science

what about people like Larry Wall? Creator of the perl programming language? Did he hav a cs degree and did his lack of it prevent him from writing world class software? At one time most of d web was powered by perl!
What about John Carmack- the video game programmer. He is not only a rock solid developer,he has contributed theoretically to computer science. He has an algorithm named after him- "the carmack reverse"!
How could he know so much with no certifctn to his name?
What of Jamie Zawinski, one of d main developers of xemacs? He is a high school dropout! He shouldnt know what he is doing cuz-- afterall he didnt finish secondary school!

Windows and Apple: This youtude video tells us that the GUI technology they are using was developed by Xerox team of computer scientists:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pQocN_c2uLI

Other innovations by the big companies were possible due to them recruiting computer scientists.

the most valuable company in d world,apple,was founded and run by largely uni dropouts . Many of apples founding engineers had no/little college education.

Canada is the only country in the world where Software Engineering is regulated https://www.engineerscanada.ca/become-an-engineer/examination-syllabus
If you don't have a degree in software Engineering in Canada you can take these exams https://engineerscanada.ca/sites/default/files/syllabus_4_20.pdf or work under someone that is licenced that can check your work.


Regulating programming will not drive up prices everywhere as you have stated but will only ensure that the quality of software developed are up to standard and will help to check those that take up programming projects they are not qualified to be doing.

Febup:


Canada is the only country in the world where Software Engineering is regulated https://www.engineerscanada.ca/become-an-engineer/examination-syllabus
If you don't have a degree in software Engineering in Canada you can take these exams https://engineerscanada.ca/sites/default/files/syllabus_4_20.pdf or work under someone that is licenced that can check your work.


in otherwords,except u go thru their system, you dont know what you are doing? You dont hav knowledge until d govermnt tells you that you hav? The jamie zawinskis, palmer luckys (created oculus rift,and spawned the vr craze,without formal unvsity knowledge), john carmacks, larry walls, initial apple engineering teams, FIRST NEED TO go take some "test" to show nd prove to the governmnt that can program before they go program their ground breaking works?
Next,they'll need to recertify nd pay some dues to be entitled to practice! This stuff only works in fields where it's hard to prove urself by yourself. Alone.


Regulating programming will not drive up prices everywhere as you have stated but will only ensure that the quality of software developed are up to standard and will help to check those that take up programming projects they are not qualified to be doing.

Regulating software will DRIVE UP prices AND limit the number of participants AND kill the rate of innovation in the field.
It will drive up prices because d cost of REGULATION will b passed on to d developers , who will pass it onto customers.
It will limit participants because, not every1 will b qualified,inspite of interest nd passion,to b software engineers.
With fewer partcpnts they'll b fewer innovation nd d field will stall.
For the few insiders,they'll b higher prestige-via d titles "licensed engineer". Higher fees, and less software for d masses. A blackmarket system will evolve as a result. E.g in licensed practices, the services eventually bcome unaffordable except for d rich/middle class. E.g law,accounting, engineering,surgery. The not so well off,do without or find lower quality alternatives. All these are because of d state/industry sanctioned barriers to entry in those fields. How many people can afford d services of a good lawyer? How many students? How many poor/low income ppl?
How affordable is good health care? Say major surgeries-brain/cancer etc.
If d majority of d population cant afford these servces,then who are they for? The rich/well to do.
What's d cost of hiring chartered accountants to audit ur business?
What do u learn in law school that is different from you learned in university. What do u learn taking accountng certs that is different frm what u learned in school?
It can b understood y govt should regulate certain fields e.g to reduce the risk to lives (e.g in engineering nd medicine) and d economy (banking). I'm not saying regulation is evil but in highly creative fields,it will do more harm than good- in d long run.

Why will android playstore eventually eclipse apple store? because, barrier to entry is low on google. So many players,means more competition,more innovation,more crappy software-yes,more options for consumers and a lessening cost overall. More software,makes playstore more valuable to consumers nd phone makers than apple store.
On the issue of quality assurance -that's almost impossible to implemnt. One,a team will hav to monitor software sold, or shipped , to ensure it is well made. Issue is, what is d objective criteria for well-made software? There's none! 2) legal issues in opening up your sourcode to external examination will further kill d process. 3) for basic software, it would b useless waste of labour incurring d inspection cost. E.g. If i want a software that sorts a list of numbers - how much knowledge of cs do i need for that? What if i pick d slowest sort routine but the maximum size of elemnts it will sort is relatively small e.g d size of a school (say at most 2000 students) how worst of will software perform bf my clients sue me? Besides, without cs knwledge i could use sorting routines in the inbuilt libraries of my chosen language. Why would i need a 4-7 yr cs degree for this? It would b a different thing if i'm creating google and sorting 1billion queries/day. Then,i'd need more advanced knowledge but until then, regulation is overkill. And when a programmer gets to that level,he'll know what to do. He'd have read up on sorting algorithms, read up on maths, researched latest sorting techs etc he wont just foolishly try to create somethng on that scale with no adequate knowledge,if he is smart.

asalimpo:

the governmnt can try to regulate programming but will fail woefully. Except they can censure the internet and police every citizen. The only thing "regulation" will achieve is in creating a closed system and a niche and mystify the field. It will drive up prices everywhere. Programmers will earn mor. Be more respected. Hav initials nd titles they can append to their names etc and have greater self esteem. All fair nd good,but in d long run, it will stiffle the rate of innovation resulting in more losses overall.
In d current free mkt system, barrier to entry is very low. No excessive bureaucracy. The good ones rise to d top, by their works. Mediocres stay at their level. To make money,you sell a product-software or service- no dangling of paper bf anybody making it possible for ppl to earn from their works right away.

Febup:
@asalimpo You should have responded to my post separately rather than mixing your response with my post. Regulation of social media will help put a check on you doing such. You sound like you are afraid of a degree in degree in Computer Science, but actually a degree in Computer Science or Software Engineering will not only make you a better programmer but it will also teach you 'Ethics' which will make you to know to avoid mixing you response to a post that is not your own like you have done above.



Most of the innovations today were developed by those with a degree in Computer Science or Software Engineering.

WhatsApp the world's biggest mobile messaging service - 1. Brian Acton: Degree in computer science. 2. Jan Koum - Became interested in
programming he enrolled at San Jose State University.

C++ - Bjarne Stroustrup PhD in computer science.

Java - James Gosling: Bachelor of Science, M.A. and Ph.D. all in computer science.

Linux - Linus Torvalds: Between 1988 and 1996 graduated with a master's degree in computer science.

Jquery - John Resig: Graduated with a degree in Computer Science.

Adobe Photoshop, Acrobat Reader the Portable Document Format (PDF) and Adobe Creative Suite - 1. John Edward Warnock degree in electrical engineering and computer science. 2. Charles Geschke PhD in computer science

Windows and Apple: This youtude video tells us that the GUI technology they are using was developed by Xerox team of computer scientists:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pQocN_c2uLI

Other innovations by the big companies were possible due to them recruiting computer scientists.

Canada is the only country in the world where Software Engineering is regulated https://www.engineerscanada.ca/become-an-engineer/examination-syllabus
If you don't have a degree in software Engineering in Canada you can take these exams https://engineerscanada.ca/sites/default/files/syllabus_4_20.pdf or work under someone that is licenced that can check your work.

Regulating programming will not drive up prices everywhere as you have stated but will only ensure that the quality of software developed are up to standard and will help to check those that take up programming projects they are not qualified to be doing.

Febup:


I said "Most of the innovations today were developed by those with a degree in Computer Science" I did not say all innovations. The ones I have listed are the most popular today.

You mentioned about integrity & honesty, I listed 5 innovations that are still the most popular today but you have listed 3 which you call many.

asalimpo:

I hav listed many stalwart programmers,who had no cs degree. Countering d claim u make.

asalimpo:

ok. You dont like that style of commntng. It's used a lot here. It enables d commenter,reply to a post ,point by point, as you saw me do.

vezycash:


[s]Curious about how you came to head the accounting team. Knew some oga at the top? [/s]

You modified your post and answered this before I asked.



Lucky you. Only two of my programming lecturers knew what they were doing. C and VB.



You're a self learner just like me. You learned using a book. I learned through practice. The qBasic interpreter taught me.

I mistakenly thought getting a CS degree would make me a programmer. I was utterly bored and frustrated in all my CS programming classes - throughout 4 year sentence.

From hearing your experience, I understand how wrong I was about the benefit of CS curriculum to the average student. I was an outlier - not the norm. Most CS students would hear about important computing concepts for the first time in their CS classes.

I still maintain however, that those who want mastery - not computing basics should study something else for their first degree.

Last update.
We are now in an an age of cheap laptops and internet where self learners like us can pick basic to advanced computing concepts online for free on YouTube, Khan Academy. And paid sites like Udemy, Edx, Udacity, Lynda...

If you grew up now, you'd see things more from my angle.

Febup:


I said "Most of the innovations today were developed by those with a degree in Computer Science" I did not say all innovations. The ones I have listed are the most popular today.

Updated
You mentioned about integrity & honesty, I listed 5 innovations that are still the most popular today but you have listed 3 which you call many and are they popular today?

Take XEmacs for example: "In my opinion, XEmacs development started to stagnate several years ago, after release of GNU Emacs 21. Most elisp packages are written for GNU Emacs nowadays and they aren't guaranteed to work in the XEmacs." Source: https://stackoverflow.com/questions/634306/xemacs-vs-emacs-which-is-better-for-programming-c posted 11-03-2009


Yet you did not mix your response to the other posts on this page with the quotes you were responding to as you did with mine.

asalimpo:


My view was that a cs degree would giv one rich theoretical grounding in computation and programmng would b a by thing. A cs graduate would b able to do things like create oses, compilers, device efficient algorithms , understand nd implemnt databases (not sql o but create db engines-b trees and all) etc. Linus torvalds wrote linux during his msc. He has no phD but look what he's been able to do. Others like d man who created d first rdbms,had a phd etc i held cs in high esteem but it seems apart from top universities,most institutions r poor eitherway. Poor in theory, poor in pragmatics with lame lecturers who dont even know their stuffs!

pjosh1:
This is a conversation between my uncle and I.

Uncle: Josh, what course do you want 2 study.
Me: Computer Science
Uncle: Why
Me: Because I like it
Uncle: Do you know any programming language
Me: Yes, I know python and am still learning it.
Uncle: Who taught you?
Me: I learnt it by my self.
Uncle: Do not study com. Sci
Me: Why?
Uncle : Why waste 4 years in a Nigerian university studying Computer Science when you can learn it on your own or even register and learn it somewhere else.

Me: I will need the certificate when looking for work.

Uncle: Look, even if you want to learn computer science don't depend on your cert. When looking for work, you can work on your own.

To some extent, what he said is true. I advice other student not to take Computer Science as a course.

Febup:


Most of the innovations today were developed by those with a degree in Computer Science or Software Engineering.

WhatsApp the world's biggest mobile messaging service - 1. Brian Acton: Degree in computer science. 2. Jan Koum - Became interested in
programming he enrolled at San Jose State University.

C++ - Bjarne Stroustrup PhD in computer science.

Java - James Gosling: Bachelor of Science, M.A. and Ph.D. all in computer science.

Linux - Linus Torvalds: Between 1988 and 1996 graduated with a master's degree in computer science.

Jquery - John Resig: Graduated with a degree in Computer Science.

Adobe Photoshop, Acrobat Reader the Portable Document Format (PDF) and Adobe Creative Suite - 1. John Edward Warnock degree in electrical engineering and computer science. 2. Charles Geschke PhD in computer science

Windows and Apple: This youtude video tells us that the GUI technology they are using was developed by Xerox team of computer scientists:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pQocN_c2uLI

Other innovations by the big companies were possible due to them recruiting computer scientists.

Canada is the only country in the world where Software Engineering is regulated https://www.engineerscanada.ca/become-an-engineer/examination-syllabus
If you don't have a degree in software Engineering in Canada you can take these exams https://engineerscanada.ca/sites/default/files/syllabus_4_20.pdf or work under someone that is licenced that can check your work.

Regulating programming will not drive up prices everywhere as you have stated but will only ensure that the quality of software developed are up to standard and will help to check those that take up programming projects they are not qualified to be doing.

pjosh1:
I am not saying studyin com.sci is bad,ii am jst saying is a waste of time.For example, if u do not study medicine or law ,u can never be a doctor or lawyer.A simple webdeveloper do not need all what u've mentioned above to create a website, but some pple still call him a computer scientist .
Don't knw if u understand what i am sayng?

NaHiim:
Hey guys, check out my game:

https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.xploore.coronawars

GreatAchiever1:

Nice one, keep it up. Which engine did u use to make it?

GreatAchiever1:

Nice one, keep it up. Which engine did u use to make it?