@davidylan,

1. When tithes and offerings were collected by the early church it was meant to cater to the needs of EVERY member of the body of Christ, rich or poor, small or big, male or female, pastor or church warden.
- What do we have today? The congregation "sowing" that mr. pastor may ride the latest jets all over the world while the "sowers" trek to church.

When you read the Bible out of proper contexts, you will end up with the statement as above. The Church never provided for the daily living of everyone except at a time when it was confirmed that there would be famine at a place. The Church ONLY provided for the needs of Widows and Orphans. To the others, the timeless truth applies: "He that does not work must not eat".

2. Even the apostles themselves sowed seeds. Note that brother Barnabas was a fellow traveller with Paul at one time. How many of our "pastors" today, having much land, cars, jets, schools . . . have sold them, brought the money and laid it at the apostles feet that "distribution be made unto EVERY MAN according as he had need?"

That you have no clue what they do does not mean they do not do it. Question: "How many times have you carried out the injuction you highlighted above yourself?" People who hype too much about the poor reminds me of no other than Judas. Didn't jesus Himself mention that "the poor you will always have with you?" Why didn't He ask Mary to go sell the perfume and give the money to the poor? The answer is very simple. Mary did that to fulfil the Gospel. The jet that the GO is buying, what purpose is it for?

Let's assume you are a CEO who owns business interests all over the world. Do you think it will be prudent to buy a jet or to continue hopping from one plane to another subject to airline cancellations and schedule? We need to make right judgments and not just one based on prejudice.

I don't know GO nor am I a fan. I don't thinkI can ever be a member of his ministry, but with the size of his church and what I believe is schedule is, I am surprised he is just getting a jet. Even the scriptures decalare that in the last days, men shall go to and fro. How do you think God expects that to be done? On the back of donkeys?

Continue worshipping these false prophets.

Worshipping? Exactly what do you mean?

every man would give account on judgment day

Abi ooh!

excellent post Tayo-D

I doubt that the GO is getting the jet for self aggrandizement, if you need to travel far and wide as part of your ministry and it is more economical to get a Jet than to continuously fork out for plane tickets all over the place coupled with delays and what not, then it makes sense.

People will continue to say there is poverty in the land, RCCG is doing a great deal to help with that - but the primary mission of spreading the gospel should not be lost.

Exactly ooh

Sheep must chop.

Tayo-D i posted a detailed rebuttal that Seun's website has made me lose. I wont bother re-writing it, suffice to say that much of what you have posted does not stand the test of scriptural scrutiny.

@Davidylan,

I will appreciate your kindly showing me in at least one instance, where what I have said violates scripture. Start by showing that the Church was responsible for meeting other's needs apart from Widows and orphans.

Tayo-D:

@davidylan,
When you read the Bible out of proper contexts, you will end up with the statement as above.

Have you read it in context yourself?

Tayo-D:

The Church never provided for the daily living of everyone except at a time when it was confirmed that there would be famine at a place.

1. At no time did i claim the church provided for the "daily living" of every member.
2. At no time did i advocate that today's church is responsible for providing the for the daily upkeep of the congregation.

Tayo-D:

The Church ONLY provided for the needs of Widows and Orphans.

Read it again: Acts 4: 32And the multitude of them that believed were of one heart and of one soul: neither said any of them that ought of the things which he possessed was his own; but they had all things common.

33And with great power gave the apostles witness of the resurrection of the Lord Jesus: and great grace was upon them all.

34Neither was there ANY among them that lacked: for as many as were possessors of lands or houses sold them, and brought the prices of the things that were sold,

35And laid them down at the apostles' feet: and distribution was made unto EVERY MAN according as he had need.

36And Joses, who by the apostles was surnamed Barnabas, (which is, being interpreted, The son of consolation,) a Levite, and of the country of Cyprus,

37Having land, sold it, and brought the money, and laid it at the apostles' feet.

Were does it talk about ONLY orphans and widows?

Tayo-D:

That you have no clue what they do does not mean they do not do it. Question: "How many times have you carried out the injuction you highlighted above yourself?" People who hype too much about the poor reminds me of no other than Judas.

this is a hypocrites excuse.
1. I do not collect tithes and offerings.
2. I am merely putting these "men" side by side with the actions of the ancient apostles and found them glaringly wanting.
3. Its not about the poor, its about conning the poor.
4. The little i have i make sure those around me are blessed from the sweat of my labour not from how much i can wangle from the pockets of the gullible.

Tayo-D:

Didn't jesus Himself mention that "the poor you will always have with you?"

the same Jesus said - blessed are the poor.

Tayo-D:

Why didn't He ask Mary to go sell the perfume and give the money to the poor? The answer is very simple. Mary did that to fulfil the Gospel. The jet that the GO is buying, what purpose is it for?

Poor analogy - did Mary levy her neighbours to buy the oil of anointing?

Of what purpose is the private jet? How does it glorify God? Is Roger Federer's private gulfstream also for the purpose of the gospel?

Tayo-D:

Let's assume you are a CEO who owns business interests all over the world. Do you think it will be prudent to buy a jet or to continue hopping from one plane to another subject to airline cancellations and schedule? We need to make right judgments and not just one based on prejudice.

Brother . . . pls wake me up from my slumber - when did your church become a business conglomerate with a CEO?

Tayo-D:

I don't know GO nor am I a fan. I don't thinkI can ever be a member of his ministry, but with the size of his church and what I believe is schedule is, I am surprised he is just getting a jet. Even the scriptures decalare that in the last days, men shall go to and fro. How do you think God expects that to be done? On the back of donkeys?

How did the apostles reach their world with the gospel?
How did the early apostles pen the words you quote today without the computer, no word processors, no biros, no paper as you have it today, no post offices, no copying machines, no private jets . . .

This generation will have no excuse on the day of judgement.

While our villages are in dire need of men of God, when our peasants in the hinterlands can not get their hands on a copy of the bible in their own language, when our farmers living in remote jungles have yet to set their eyes on a man of God . . . our "pastors" are too busy buying jets to "spread the gospel" among the very people who brought the gospel to us in the first place.

Is Adeboye "spreading the gospel" in London? they heard it well before us . . . start from the poor villagers in Yobe state who don't even know a Christ once lived, if you noticed . . . you dont need a jet to get there.

davidylan:

.

How did the apostles reach their world with the gospel?
How did the early apostles pen the words you quote today without the computer, no word processors, no biros, no paper as you have it today, no post offices, no copying machines, no private jets . . .

This generation will have no excuse on the day of judgement.

Apart from taxing the RCCG members,how about the additional carbon footprint that will be generated I thought the LORD said 'Be fruitful,multiply and [b][/b]REPLENISH the earth'.

Has anyone ever looked at a map of Paul's missionary journey?

Let me remind you that this man who in today's geography compassed at least 3 continents did so with no private jet at all.

For quite a while now, I have been giving a sizeable portion of the offerings I used to give these pentecostal churches to The Gideons to print and distribute more Bibles. That is spreading God's word truly. The receivers can read and come to their personal understanding of God and Christ's ministry. Moreover I make sure those around me I help them meaningfully to get to the next level in life.
No more following sheepishly these conning gods of men.

Davidylan,

I don't have the time to walk you thru scriptures again pointing this obvious facts to you. However, it takes one who just refuses to see the truth to not know that the NT Church's emphasis on helping the poor is largely and exclusively for the widows and orphans. Here are some scriptures I'll like you to ponder and consider. That the every man mentioned in Acts 4 is not properly defined in that passage does not mean we are left without its meaning in other scriptures. That is where we need to think about scriptural admonition of line upon line, precept upon precept, a little here and a little there.

Acts 6:1 In those days when the number of disciples was increasing, the Grecian Jews among them complained against the Hebraic Jews because their widows were being overlooked in the daily distribution of food

1 Tim 5:3 - Give proper recognition to those widows who are really in need.

1 Tim 5:16 - If any woman who is a believer has widows in her family, she should help them and not let the church be burdened with them, so that the church can help those widows who are really in need.

James 1:27 - Religion that God our Father accepts as pure and faultless is this: to look after orphans and widows in their distress and to keep oneself from being polluted by the world.

@Davidylan,

this is a hypocrites excuse.

A hypocrite is one who does not practice what he preaches/says. How am i a hyprocrite.

1. I do not collect tithes and offerings.

The scripture in context does not refer exclusively to pastors, but all Disciples.

2. I am merely putting these "men" side by side with the actions of the ancient apostles and found them glaringly wanting.

The apsotles used every means of their days to reach the world. If they had access to jets, they would have got one. Can you tell me what means of transportation they had but never used?

3. Its not about the poor, its about conning the poor.

I guess you will say the same about Elijah and even Jesus who accepted the offering of the widow who gave all her living.

4. The little i have i make sure those around me are blessed from the sweat of my labour not from how much i can wangle from the pockets of the gullible.

You are a hypocrite. How dare you own a laptop when people are starving in Sudan. How dare you eat 3 square meals when some in Naija can't afford one. You see how this is so relative?

Tayo-D:

Davidylan,

I don't have the time to walk you through scriptures again pointing this obvious facts to you. However, it takes one who just refuses to see the truth to not know that the NT Church's emphasis on helping the poor is largely and exclusively for the widows and orphans. Here are some scriptures I'll like you to ponder and consider. That the every man mentioned in Acts 4 is not properly defined in that passage does not mean we are left without its meaning in other scriptures. That is where we need to think about scriptural admonition of line upon line, precept upon precept, a little here and a little there.

I have only 2 things to say:

1. Acts 4: 32-37 was not an accident . . . unless you choose to be spiritually blind in order to find a suitable excuse for ur merchants of mens souls parading themselves as pastors today - those 5 key verses refer to every single member of the church inclusive as being helped according to their need . . . at least 5 times.

Pls look at verses 32-35.

you have made reference to several passages of the bible to point out the erroneous "fact" that the apostles catered ONLY to the widows and orphans . . . however you have said precious little except to reiterate the already well known fact that the apostles took the welfare of the less priviledged among them very seriously with special emphasis on the widows and orphans who they considered least capable of helping themselves.

Now i ask - where are the widows and orphans your business conglomerates aka houses of Gawd are helping? How are they benefiting from the purchase of a private jet?

Tayo-D:

The scripture in context does not refer exclusively to pastors, but all Disciples.

all disciples are not busy using sales pitches to steal money from the poor that they might live in abundance.

Tayo-D:

The apsotles used every means of their days to reach the world. If they had access to jets, they would have got one. Can you tell me what means of transportation they had but never used?

The apostles prefered to sell their lands to help the poor rather than use them to build the largest synagogues in Israel.

Tayo-D:

I guess you will say the same about Elijah and even Jesus who accepted the offering of the widow who gave all her living.

Elijah did not leave the widow with "prayers" and "promises". Christ blessed and fed 5000 . . . how many have your CEOs left better than they met them?

Tayo-D:

you are a hypocrite. How dare you own a laptop when people are starving in Sudan. How dare you eat 3 square meals when some in Naija can't afford one. You see how this is so relative?

poor analogy . . . i afford all that i have by the sweat of my brow and the blessings of the Lord who has undeservedly chosen to bless me. I did not con the starving pple of Darfur with empty promises and false doctrine to purchase my laptop. I have not eaten today by taking money from the average naija man in the name of Christ.

@ davidylan
just curious. what church do u attend?

That some modern day pastor or GO (or have they now become G O D?) can expect his flock to fund a private jet for 'evangelism' is one of the logical consequences of the "prosperity gospel". You will not find such a thing resulting from the true gospel taught in the Bible. You will not read of Jesus, Peter, James, Paul or any other apostle doing such a thing --- it is simply antithetical to the true gospel. But as for the prosperity gospel? Sure it is almost a competition nowadays and prosperity preachers all over the world have to show each other they have truly arrived --- and one of the ways they are doing it is this private jet scam. Well, if their flock are gullible er erm happy enough to pay for such folly, let them all at it!

janami:

@ davidylan
just curious. what church do u attend?

Unecessary question . . . what matters most is the gospel unadulterated.

*Covers face with both hands and shaking head*

Oh Lordy, Lordy, Lordy!

You try to defend them,

You make excuses that sound stupid even to you.

You judge others for judging them (The irony. . . completely lost on you)

And just when you are starting to feel mighty pleased with yourself for standing up for the men of God

They pull the rug from under you by buying a Jet for 20 freaking million dollars!!!

Ughhhhhh!!!

20 million dollars. praise God.

A footballer buys his jet with his money, he does not ask his fans who are 100 times worse off than he is to donate their money to buy him one.

Someone who hasn't paid his mortgage in two months will send his money towards this because he thinks if he doesn't, brimstones and fire will rain down on him. When he finally loses his home, he'll be made to feel it's because his faith wasn't strong enough.

How does this make any sense?

if the church's spending is erratic their judgement rests with God.

davidylan:

Unecessary question . . . what matters most is the gospel unadulterated.

ok, so let me rephrase the question : what church do u get unadulterated gospel messages from? i.e what church do u attend?

Sisikill:

A footballer buys his jet with his money, he does not ask his fans who are 100 times worse off than he is to donate their money to buy him one.

Someone who hasn't paid his mortgage in two months will send his money towards this because he thinks if he doesn't, brimstones and fire will rain down on him. When he finally loses his home, he'll be made to feel it's because his faith wasn't strong enough.

How does this make any sense?

it's his fault for donating for the wrong reasons.  his donation is an obligation to God of good.  if he donated because he's mentally washed up by sermons of guilt from the church, i pity him.

janami:

ok, so let me rephrase the question : what church do u get unadulterated gospel messages from? i.e what church do u attend?

Still an unecessary question. Christ is coming for a "people" not a congregation.

lol. tlk now.

excellent post Tayo-D

I doubt that the GO is getting the jet for self aggrandizement, if you need to travel far and wide as part of your ministry and it is more economical to get a Jet than to continuously fork out for plane tickets all over the place coupled with delays and what not, then it makes sense.

People will continue to say there is poverty in the land, RCCG is doing a great deal to help with that - but the primary mission of spreading the gospel should not be lost.

I don't care how much I love Adeboye but getting a jet is outrageous besides this news came from a tabloid and may not be factual. Common people, are we blinded by religion? Even mega million dollar pastors like Joel Osteen or Creflo Dollar has no private jets. They still travel around the world in a commercial plane. The pope that is the president of vatican flies in private Alitalia . What happened to the examples kept by early churches like building schools, hospitals etc and not private jets. Redeem is not a liberal pentecostal church and shouldnt allow themselves in this stupid idea. Kumiyi seems to be the only credible pastor in Nigeria now.

@Davidylan,

1. Acts 4: 32-37 was not an accident . . . unless you choose to be spiritually blind in order to find a suitable excuse for your merchants of mens souls parading themselves as pastors today - those 5 key verses refer to every single member of the church inclusive as being helped according to their need . . . at least 5 times.

Every single member of the church? You gotta be kidding me. The Bible is very clear: "if any would not work, neither should he eat", and "But if any provide not for his own, and specially for those of his own house, he hath denied the faith, and is worse than an infidel". So why would the Church sustain a lifestyle that makes you worse than an infidel? that is why I said you fail to read the scriptures scripturally. You go off on a tangent without thinking about how it works with other scriptures. On the one hand you said this: "1. At no time did i claim the church provided for the "daily living" of every member.
2. At no time did i advocate that today's church is responsible for providing the for the daily upkeep of the congregation."; and agian you are advocating what you have earlier dismissed.

God is not the author of confusion, he will not give you bread if you refuse to work. And for the poor, what they need is not money, it is the Gospel, and the Gospel declares that it is only those who give and sow that shall receive and reap.

the same Jesus said - blessed are the poor.

Again you continue to use scriptures that are irrelevant to the topic so as to make yourself look good. Of course the poor are blessed, and the way to be more blessed is to give rather than receive. If I meet a poor person today, the first thing I'll have that person do is to bless someone who is poorer than himself. That and receiving the Gospel is the first step towards prosperity.

RedHotChic:


I don't care how much I love Adeboye but getting a jet is outrageous besides this news came from a tabloid and may not be factual. Common people, are we blinded by religion?  Even mega million dollar pastors like Joel Osteen or Creflo Dollar has no private jets. They still travel around the world in a commercial plane.  The pope that is the president of vatican flies in  private Alitalia . What happened to the examples kept by early churches like building schools, hospitals etc and not private jets. Redeem is not a liberal pentecostal church and shouldnt allow themselves in this stupid idea. Kumiyi seems to be the only credible pastor in Nigeria now.

So this is your yardstick for 'credibility'?

the same Jesus said - blessed are the poor.

[size=15pt]IN SPIRIT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!![/size]


Matthew 5:3
"Blessed are the poor in spirit, for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.

Luke 6:20
Looking at his disciples, he said: "Blessed are you who are poor, for yours is the kingdom of God. ( Note that the kingdom of God i.e. heaven is the same in both verses hence this one also refers to the poor in spirit).