Bidam: Quote the translations that renders it. You don't just throw an open ended questions into the air without giving us the proper context you are coming from.

Answer the question Bro. Stop these hide and seek games, the question won't answer itself or magically disappear.

The word "PAY" was only used in the New King James Version (NKJV) which was published in 1982 many years after you were born.

Why are you religious leaders doing everything to change the text of the bible?

Bidam: Yeah..they were even hiding my comments while allowing antithers to comment freely on their thread.
What do you think you will be expecting when the moderator himself is an antither.

Joagbaje:

Same for my comment too. Maybe it was an unconscious biase

[size=16pt]THE AUDIENCE[/size]

To facilitate a smooth and thorough discussion we shall be laying down some guidelines and rules for our “audience”. We wanted a situation where only the discussants and the moderators shall be able to post on the thread but we have not been able to achieve that. Thus, to curtail unneccesary posting and a derailing of this thread we ask that our viewers or audience abide by these rules.The central moderator, Ajibam, shall be available to enforce the rules; which in some extreme cases will require that he hides some comments:

1. The audience are enjoined not to post on the thread at all. If they must post, it must be a relevant point to the discussion at hand. The moderators shall judge whether this post is necessary or not. If it is an unneccesary post, the moderators shall be hiding the post. We understand that we do not see it all; and it is possible that some of our audience have made an observation that has skipped our eyes, if you make reference to a matter like that; we consider that post valid and it shall remain. If not, we call on our audience to refrain from posting irrationally on this thread.

2. This thread is not open to any other debates on tithes. There are hundreds of tithe thread that can be utilized for that, including the one that birth this.

3. The discussion is meant to last some times. We are allowing 50hours maximum to cover discussion on each point a discussant is presenting. With a likelihood of 20 points to cover; we envision that this discussion will cover a maximum of about 1000 hours, which is about 2 months. So we call on our audience to forbear with us; for it is a slow, steady but sure way of reaching a goal, which is understanding the biblical tithes.

4. The audience will have opportunity to ask our discussants questions only after the discussion is concluded. Any question or comment directed at discussants shall be hidden. If an audience must say anything on this thread it must be directed at the moderator.

5. Following the discussion we trust that the Nairaland authorities shall place the thread on front page to allow people access to the information on it. And the floor will be open to any other comment.

trustman:

Can a legitimate (thing) be done in such a way that (it) can be considered wrong? For example, is it right to have a bath? Will it be considered ok to have a bath in broad day light in the market square? A fitting scripture to such a thing would be – Let everything be done decently AND IN ORDER.

Giving, Prayer and fasting may be legitimate things but when done wrongly what do we find?
Matthew 6:2

[Giving]“So when you give to the needy, do not announce it with trumpets, as the hypocrites do in the synagogues and on the streets, to be honored by others. Truly I tell you, they have received their reward in full.
Matthew 6:5

[ Prayer ] “And when you pray, do not be like the hypocrites, for they love to pray standing in the synagogues and on the street corners to be seen by others. Truly I tell you, they have received their reward in full.
Matthew 6:16

[ Fasting ] “When you fast, do not look somber as the hypocrites do, for they disfigure their faces to show others they are fasting. Truly I tell you, they have received their reward in full.

We are not at liberty to define our terms before God. We need to understand God’s terms and stick to them. We are not at liberty to define or determine what we think TITHE is. We must understand and stick to God’s own definition of it. Period. We cannot arrogate to ourselves a level of spiritual height where we now choose how we relate with God or our terms for it. He is supreme and sovereign. Humility demands that we conform to His revealed will not choose our own systems for dealing with Him.

Image123:
Specific instructions are not general instructions, although they may be emulated.

Image123:
Examples can be followed and as the Holy Spirit leads us, but they are not necessarily laws for the general populace or for all time.

Zikkyy: In his response to M3, image123 agreed that the Israelite did not tithe war booty. I will say they did not because God did not command tithe of war booty. Image123 response is actually in support of our position that not all increase are tithe-able (War booty is an increase), Therefore the view that Israelite tithed all increase cannot hold (joagbaje, please note ) God defined his tithe to be a tenth (not 10%) of agric produce, our pastors define tithe as 10% of all increase (also defined as 10% of 'watever') including income from prostitution, robbery, money ritual e.t.c. so you will understand why armed robbers are tithing.

When i argued about this "a tenth" i got many people who failed their maths class on my neck saying a tenth is 10%. Since that day i stopped arguing about it.

Number line 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5 - 6 - 7 - 8 - 9 - 10 (Tenth)

Now give a (1) tenth of your yields. Is a tenth not 1 of a tenth? Is that not 1%? Did God say give a tenth of a 100?

These greedy murderf%$kers. SMH for uneducated people falling prey to this thievery pastors.

trustman: On Image123 Rebutting M3

Image123 said:
One main purpose of tithing is as a show of appreciation and acknowledgement to God. It was also multipurposed for the Levites to be taken care of, as they were not working except in the temple(abi na tabernacle). Such a purpose would have being lost in Numbers 31 as nobody was working yet, they were all receiving manna. There was yet to need to give the tenth to the Levites. The tithe was their salary, a compensation for their not being allowed to work full time outside like other tribes. It was given to take care of them and to help them serve without distraction. Some times if the people were not faithful in their giving, the levites became discouraged and withdrew to go do some work.
Num 18:21 And, behold, I have given the children of Levi all the tenth in Israel for an inheritance, for their service which they serve, even the service of the tabernacle of the congregation.

First, I’m sure it’s clear to tithers that the Levitical priesthood has been done away with. Therefore there is no need today to give to a set of Levites a 10% that constitutes “their salary, a compensation for their not being allowed to work full time outside like other tribes. … … to take care of them and to help them serve without distraction”. Those in certain positions of Christian ministry (every Christian is in full time service today) may be given money for their upkeep, etc but the GIVERS must not be made to give a compulsory 10% of their income or whatever. If the purpose of giving is to show appreciation to God then, like the widow’s mite, ANY AMOUNT coming from a person’s free heartedness will be acceptable to God.


He also said: Tithing is a personal decision, and Abraham took that decision. –
This is correct. Consequently, in Christ, a Christian can decide ON HIS OWN to give a fixed amount regularly: But it must be a personal decision. “Each man should give what he has decided in his heart to give, NOT RELUCTANTLY or UNDER COMPULSION, for God loves a cheerful giver” 2 Corinthians 9:7. No Christian is to be coerced into giving ANYTHING – whether a fixed percentage regularly or a one-off giving. It must be a personal decision of the individual otherwise it is no longer given by grace and will amount to nothing before God. We are saved by grace and we are to live out our lives by grace. See also Peter’s remark to Ananias in Acts 5:3-4.


The Passover was God’s instruction to Israel but when it was clear that the new covenant set it aside was there still any need to insist on it? On the other hand where there is no direct or clear evidence that God made a thing compulsory under the New Covenant there is no reason for any church today to make it mandatory for the Christian no matter how plausible the rationale presented for it is. Is there a direct or clear evidence that God made tithing compulsory under the New Covenant? I would want Image123 & co to show this.

Zikkyy: Image123 actually made some good points in his response to M3. example is the post below....



This is what we been saying. Tithe was a specific instruction to the Israelites!!!! so why is the pastor teaching tithe as an instruction applicable to Christians



Thank you image123, this what we have been saying. giving 10% should be as the spirit leads; it is not teachable. you can chose to give 10% based on OT examples, no wahala

Zikkyy: In his response to M3, image123 agreed that the Israelite did not tithe war booty. I will say they did not because God did not command tithe of war booty. Image123 response is actually in support of our position that not all increase are tithe-able (War booty is an increase), Therefore the view that Israelite tithed all increase cannot hold (joagbaje, please note ) God defined his tithe to be a tenth (not 10%) of agric produce, our pastors define tithe as 10% of all increase (also defined as 10% of 'watever') including income from prostitution, robbery, money ritual e.t.c. so you will understand why armed robbers are tithing.

EMILO2STAY: they are slowly getting exposed, even to the extent of shotting themselves on the foot.

Image123:
Examples can be followed and as the Holy Spirit leads us, but they are not necessarily laws for the general populace or for all time.

petres_007:
Choi! I must've missed a lot. I can't believe its Image123 who said these things in your quotes! Please provide links to posts you're quoting from if its not too much.
@Emilo2stay,
For peeps like Image123, I wouldn't term his apparent shift in position an exposure. I'd say he's given the matter a lot of thought and is coming around gradually.
Although quotes like the above to me, indicate a major, MAJOR change in position as it aptly summarises much of what we've been saying for years.

Candour: RESPONSE TO R4



If there is no condemnation for paying tithes, the logical question that should follow is 'is there any condemnation for NOT paying tithes?

We wouldn't be discussing this topic today but for the following judgments and condemnation passed on non tithers by pastors who collect tithes and some church members who pay tithe.

1.If you don't tithe, you're a robber and will go to hell because its a sin not to pay tithe.

2.If you don't pay tithes, you will be visited by devourers who will attack your finances, health, career, marriage, growth etc.

3.You cannot prosper as a Christian if you don't pay tithe.


We can end this discussion if our fellow discussants can boldly and confidently say the above statements are lies that negate the gospel of the grace of God that saves you and I today and why shouldn't they be able to say it? After all, they've said we are no longer under the law and we agree with them. They've said there is no compulsion, and we agree with them. They said tithing cannot justify anybody before God, and we agree with them, so why should they not condemn those three lies above?

Infact our brother said tithe is not Moses' patent which means they don't tithe because of Moses but follow Abraham's example. Which is good because they've also said examples can be followed but they are not laws for the general populace for all time and we agree with them on this also. So why can't they condemn those three falsehoods above? Well we can, and we will with the help of the word of God.

Galatians 3:24-25 KJV
Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith. [25] But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.

The law is no longer our school master. It has concluded its work as it has chased us to Christ to whom we've come to drop our yoke and bondage in exchange for liberty to be led by the spirit. The law insists on the Sabbath, grace allows me choose my day of rest or worship. The law says a minister in the tabernacle CANNOT have an inheritance, Grace says we all are ministers of the covenant and are not yoked to any earthly temple but free indeed. The law says a tenth must be given to the Levites(who have no inheritance), Grace says as I purpose in my heart, so I give. Grace allows me and you this freedom because of the scripture below

Romans 10:4 KJV
For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth.

My righteousness is of Christ. I have none of my own.

Romans 8:1 KJV
There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

There's no condemnation to us who are in Christ so we refuse a mere mortal dictate how we give to our needy brethren and our God. No man or pastor is holy enough to stand in the place of the holy spirit to decree how we give. No practice, ritual or ordinance can condemn us. We are led by the Spirit in everything we do including giving and if the holy spirit is leading us indeed, let's stop suggesting 10% to him. That is trying to force the flesh on the spirit. The early Christians in Acts of the Apostles gave up everything to be shared among the needy that were in the church and I dare say it went a longer way than any 10% could have. The difference is that they gave willingly.

God gave up the best of heaven already for us according to this verse

Romans 8:32 KJV
He that spared not his own Son, but delivered him up for us all, how shall he not with him also freely give us all things?

So why do we need to pay him a tenth before he blesses us? Brethren, the cross made a lot of difference.


If there's no condemnation for not observing Sabbath, then there's none for not tithing. If there's no condemnation for not observing feast of weeks, there's none for not tithing. If there's no condemnation for not burning an offering like Abraham's example, then there's ABSOLUTELY none for not tithing.


Tithing today is indeed a burden. Many pastors today devour widows houses by requiring the tithe of them. Mark's widowed mother is a perfect example of one whose house is devoured by the false doctrine of the monetary tithe. Eighty-seven years old, unable to attend services any more, Yet her pastor calls her the first of every month to remind her he is dropping by her house to collect her tithes. This makes her tithe more important than her presence at fellowship because obviously tithe paying 'is the safest thing to do' in his Christianity. A practice that God’s Word clearly is against.

Matthew 23:14 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye devour widows' houses, and for a pretence make long prayer: therefore ye shall receive the greater damnation.

Yes, the tithe is indeed a burden that greedy people have capitalized on to fleece and tie helpless people to a yoke.


What exactly does the injunction, “It is the safest thing to do” mean? It clearly means our fellow discussants believe those who don't tithe are not safe from any of the condemnations listed above. It reveals that the reader is to tithe to be safe, or to expect calamity from God for not tithing. This is simply fear mongering and Christians will do well to internalize the scriptures below

Romans 8:15 KJV
For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father.

2 Timothy 1:7 KJV
For God hath not given us the spirit of fear; but of power, and of love, and of a sound mind.

Christians, don't let fear rule you for there is no condemnation to those who walk according to the Spirit. However tithing because “it is the safest thing to do” is not walking according to the Spirit but living in bondage of not knowing whether you're accepted by God or not. It is acting according to the flesh and shows a life devoid of the spirit of God. God took away the condemnation when we trusted Christ and it would be a shame to put ourselves again under that yoke. The bible said we are already blessed with all spiritual blessings

Ephesians 1:3 KJV
Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ:

Christians need to walk in this consciousness. We are blessed already and its wrong to say you must tithe to be blessed as a Christian.

Our fellow discussants state again that we are not under the Law, yet the Law is the only place one can place oneself under if one chooses to tithe to be “safe.” The ordinances were taken away. That includes the ordinance of tithing. There is not one iota of Scripture in the Word of God that says we are to tithe today…not one, therefore we can't agree with the man-made notion that tithing “is the safest thing to do.” Christians are enjoined to give generously and freely to our needy brethren and other worthy causes that please God, Its in our interest to stick with this admonition.


If there is no command to tithe, why would tithing be “the safest thing to do”? If some choose to follow Abraham's example of tithing, when did it become a law for all Christians?



END

Image123:

Prayer is not by compulsion, giving/tithing is not by compulsion, reading the Bible is not by compulsion etc. One cannot exactly argue that a person is condemned because he/she did has not been having regular devotion, or any other christian practice. But we are very clear about what is the right thing to do. And tithing remains one of the right things for a believer to do, like prayer, fasting, fellowship etc. Loving people cannot justify anybody, honouring our parents or elders cannot justify anybody. We are justified by faith

Image123: Prayer is not by compulsion, giving/tithing is not by compulsion, reading the Bible is not by compulsion etc. One cannot exactly argue that a person is condemned because he/she did has not been having regular devotion, or any other christian practice. But we are very clear about what is the right thing to do. And tithing remains one of the right things for a believer to do, like prayer, fasting, fellowship etc. Loving people cannot justify anybody, honouring our parents or elders cannot justify anybody. We are justified by faith.

rudedough:

When i argued about this "a tenth" i got many people who failed their maths class on my neck saying a tenth is 10%. Since that day i stopped arguing about it.

Number line 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5 - 6 - 7 - 8 - 9 - 10 (Tenth)

Now give a (1) tenth of your yields. Is a tenth not 1 of a tenth? Is that not 1%? Did God say give a tenth of a 100?

These greedy murderf%$kers. SMH for uneducated people falling prey to this thievery pastors.

GeneralShepherd:

Hmmm a tenth of 90 should be 1/10 of 90. I don't care about Yahweh nor the bible but a tenth is sadly 10%

Goshen360: ^ That one na algebra and calculus them dey take work their own percentage

rudedough:

This debate is going back and forth and its becoming boring.

If tithing is not by compulsion, then why threaten people with Malachi 3:8 and accusing them of robbing God?

As to the “safest thing to do'' idea, what other practice can we approach with this mindset? Sabbath was even observed by God almighty himself so I guess that makes it a practice we should adopt to be on God's safe side. Then we can go on and pick every other good practice in the old testament like feast of weeks, feast of Pentecost etc. My brethren, if we have to approach God with this ''safest thing to do'' idea, we are no better than pagans and we would do well to stop lying to ourselves as being saved by faith in Christ.

We will be judged according to our works. Truth. But what works is Revelation speaking of? All the works that are not edifying to the body of Christ.

The Patriarch had put himself under oath before going to battle that he WILL NOT PROFIT from this battle. If a lawyer wins a libel battle for a client and the client gets paid damages, will the lawyer appropriate the money all to himself? Won’t we call him a thief and backstabber? If the client offers the lawyer part or all of the damages paid, and the lawyer refuses to collect it, how do we say the lawyer owns the money? The example of likening this war to a cup competition is wrong because the cup belonged to none of the teams before they meet and to liken it to a boxing competition is sad because Abram evidently answered a distress call to save a distressed king and help him recover his goods and his subjects that were taken. That is like saying America answering a distress call from Kuwait in 1990 to save it from Iraqi occupation gives America the right to claim the oil wells of Kuwait which is what made Iraq go rogue in the first place. That would be stealing and betrayal. Sure Abram had a better value system and he put it on display. Honest conscience was better than riches to the great man.

It is the above scenario and position that amazes us, not your haranguing or disturbing. Christians should not exactly be amazed at being disturbed or troubled. What we advice is that you leave us with God to decide. It is not you that will tell us that what we want to give our Father is unacceptable. Till date, there remains NO SCRIPTURE presented that tells us not to tithe, whether of crop or currency. Don't worry, don't call us out, thank you very much. We are okay with our giving and we also have the Spirit of God. Find another ministry as it were.
How do you claim/state that the money that pro-tithers claim to be tithes cannot be tithes, and then turn back to say we are under the law for tithing? We have clearly shown that Leviticus 27:30-33 is not ALL Scripture. Scriptures do not end or start there. Genesis is also Scripture, Matthew is Scripture, Malachi is Scripture. We would do well to SEARCH the Scriptures so as to get the full picture of what God's Word is. Its like someone got stuck on the Scripture below.

rudedough: They're all lazy criminal minded Pastors. Even Apostle Paul had a job while preaching the gospel, who are these modern day Pastors to live off of other people's hard earned money?

Pastoral work is more of a vocational job. If you want to be a billionaire and contest Dangote in wealth acquisition, with all due respect kindly resign.

STOP STEALING FROM POOR PEOPLE.

DrummaBoy:

Rudedough, while the pro-tithers have it wrong on their doctrine, I think your being an atheist, a very biblically knowledgable one for that matter, should be attended to.

Will you accept a discussion on a new thread inviting you to discuss your atheistic beliefs and scriptures? I will open it if you do not mind.

Sure i'll love to but on what basics are we going to be having this discussion?

You don't expect an Atheist to disprove Theism using Bible / Qur'an scriptures do you? I am very conversant in both the Bible and Qur'an but in reality there's not much to discuss on Atheism - Theism, cos all an Atheist is going to be talking about is the lack of realistic proof while the Religionist will refer to his doctrine as proof.

It's going to be a back and forth discussion with no logical conclusion. However, i am still open to any discussion on Atheism.

rudedough:

Sure i'll love to but on what basics are we going to be having this discussion?

You don't expect an Atheist to disprove Theism using Bible / Qur'an scriptures do you? I am very conversant in both the Bible and Qur'an but in reality there's not much to discuss on Atheism - Theism, cos all an Atheist is going to be talking about is the lack of realistic proof while the Religionist will refer to his doctrine as proof.

It's going to be a back and forth discussion with no logical conclusion. However, i am still open to any discussion on Atheism.

seemylife:

Dude, I am just curious not that I am bothered though about you being an atheist. Whatever rocks your boat. A question for you, "Is it God you do not believe in or the "Men of God"" or BOTH?