rudedough:

An Atheist does not believe in the existence of God, devil, holy spirit, Jesus and any other superstition or religion.

We believe your preferred superstition exists only in your head and religionists are prisoners of their own imagination and creation.

seemylife:

Thank you for your definition and explanation of who an atheist is but that was not asked you.

My question was about you as a person and not who an atheist is.

If A = B, isn't it logical to say that B = A?

If an Atheist does not believe in superstition, isn't it logical to say that Rudedough (An Atheist) does not believe in Superstitions?

rudedough:

If A = B, isn't it logical to say that B = A?

If an Atheist does not believe in superstition, isn't it logical to say that Rudedough (An Atheist) does not believe in Superstitions?

rudedough:

Sure i'll love to but on what basics are we going to be having this discussion?

You don't expect an Atheist to disprove Theism using Bible / Qur'an scriptures do you? I am very conversant in both the Bible and Qur'an but in reality there's not much to discuss on Atheism - Theism, cos all an Atheist is going to be talking about is the lack of realistic proof while the Religionist will refer to his doctrine as proof.

It's going to be a back and forth discussion with no logical conclusion. However, i am still open to any discussion on Atheism.

Image123:

RESPONSE TO REBUTTAL R5

We expect and do hope that our discussion would be progressive and that we are learning from one another in these discusses. i believe that the aim of the discussion is to clear the air and straighten views on why we all do what we do. When we keep going to the back, like we've not being clear or touched on certain things, it shows that we are either not paying attention, or we are not learning. Now to the response, we find it contradictory and incongruent with scriptures for our fellows to say that Christ did not tithe, and yet insist that tithe is of the law.

Mat 5:17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfill.

Scriptures clearly teach that Jesus Christ did not break any of God's commands but was sinless. If indeed sin is the transgression of the law(1John3v4), we make bold to say that Jesus NEVER transgressed the law.
1Pe 2:22 Who did no sin, neither was guile found in his mouth:

Goshen360:

This text (Matthew 5:17) is one of the most abused text by the law keepers and those who promote the mosaic law along with Grace for the new testament Christians. In the time of life, I will open or start a new thread showing how this verse is grossly misinterpreted and taken out of context to support law teachings in this dispensation.

I will also show how Christ broke the law and yet, he did not sin - [size=16pt]sin is the transgression of the law but when a law doesn't exist, nothing is broken\transgressed.[/size] Image123 and his quote above is one of those who promote mosaic law along with the Gospel of Grace and as such, dilute the message of Grace and the Apostolic teachings.

Bidam: The enlarge is a misnomer. I understand where you are coming from. Lemme quote it here.

KJV Galatians 3:19 Wherefore then serveth the law? It was added because of transgressions, till the seed should come to whom the promise was made; and it was ordained by angels in the hand of a mediator.

This verse is traditionally interpreted to mean that the "Law" was given at Mount Sinai until the coming of the Messiah. After the death of the Messiah on the tree, the "law" loses its purpose.

Is this really what Paul was trying to explain in Galatians 3:19 ?

WAS THE LAW ADDED BECAUSE OF TRANSGRESSIONS?


In order to understand whether is makes sense to interpret these words to mean that the LAW was ADDED because of TRANSGRESSIONS, we need to realize several things.

Is is possible for the law to be added because of transgressions?

WHAT IS TRANSGRESSION?

KJV 1 John 3:4 Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.


SIN = TRANSGRESSION OF THE LAW

IF the LAW was ADDED BECAUSE of TRANSGRESSION then it is NOT possible to sin! You can't ever transgress / sin if the law didn't exist prior to Mount Sinai because sin is the transgression of the law (I John 3:4). Therefore the LAW could NOT have been added BECAUSE of TRANSGRESSION because the law needs to exist in order to sin which is the transgression of the law (I John 3:4).

Bidam:
This verse is traditionally interpreted to mean that the "Law" was given at Mount Sinai until the coming of the Messiah. After the death of the Messiah on the tree, the "law" loses its purpose.

Bidam:
IF the LAW was ADDED BECAUSE of TRANSGRESSION then it is NOT possible to sin! You can't ever transgress / sin if the law didn't exist prior to Mount Sinai because sin is the transgression of the law (I John 3:4). Therefore the LAW could NOT have been added BECAUSE of TRANSGRESSION because the law needs to exist in order to sin which is the transgression of the law (I John 3:4).

DrummaBoy: There is only one thing Bidam has not done, which I believe he will still do on this forum.

Bidam has not told us that Paul is not an inspired author of scriptures.

A lot of people propagate this false truth but Bidam has not joined them. But at the rate in which he is going twisting Paul's writing, re-defining "traditional" or orthodox meaning of scriptures, the next thing is to deny that Paul was inspired.

By that time, I am sure I will not even respond to him anymore on this forum.

QED!

DrummaBoy: @ Goshen

I am a so called anti-tither but I cringed when I read Candour say that Christ did not tithe. I think a better way of putting it is that there are no records of Jesus tithing in the NT. If tithing was meant for people involved with agriculture, it makes sense to say that Christ did not tithe since he was a carpenter; but still it is safer to say there were no records of Jesus tithing than saying out rightly he did not tithe. I knew that Candour and Miwerds had opened up an opportunity for tithers to key into in making that statement and I am just going to watch and see how they come out of this.

To use Matt 5:17 as proof that Jesus had to have tithed is proven to be fallacious. Jesus kept only the ordinances that pertained to Him. Some of the ordinances could not apply to Him. He was not a sinner, so He did not need to go to the Temple yearly with a sin offering. To take one to the Temple, He would be professing Himself a sinner and therefore unworthy to be the needed Sacrifice for the Redemption of mankind. A woman, after giving birth, was required to go to the Temple with sacrifices. Christ was not a woman, so that particular ordinance did not pertain to Him. Likewise, the tithe ordinance did not pertain to Him because he wasn’t a farmer nor a herder. We will remind our brothers again that NOT ALL PRACTICES IN THE BIBLE AUTOMATICALLY APPLY TO CHRISTIANS because the cross made and still makes a very big difference.

Candour: RESPONSE TO RESPONSE R5



Christ DID NOT pay tithes and he broke no law by this simply because the law of tithes DID NOT apply to him [size=16pt]since he was a carpenter (Mark 6:3), NOT a farmer or a herder.[/size] The ordinance of tithing did not and could not apply to Him. The ordinance of tithing clearly revealed what it was that God required to be tithed under the Law.

Leviticus 27:30-34 And all the tithe of the land, whether of the seed of the land, or of the fruit of the tree, is the LORD'S: it is holy unto the LORD. And if a man will at all redeem ought of his tithes, he shall add thereto the fifth part thereof. And concerning the tithe of the herd, or of the flock, even of whatsoever passeth under the rod, the tenth shall be holy unto the LORD. He shall not search whether it be good or bad, neither shall he change it: and if he change it at all, then both it and the change thereof shall be holy; it shall not be redeemed. These are the commandments, which the LORD commanded Moses for the children of Israel in mount Sinai.

Luke 2:22-24. "And when the days of her purification according to the law of Moses were accomplished, they brought him to Jerusalem, to present him to the Lord; (As it is written in the law of the Lord, Every male that openeth the womb shall be called holy to the Lord And to offer a sacrifice according to that which is said in the law of the Lord, A pair of turtledoves, or two young pigeons.

DrummaBoy:

Bidam,

Thank God you cannot re-write the bible. This is what the bible says:

KJV. Galatians 3:19 - Wherefore then serveth the law? It was added because of transgressions, till the seed should come to whom the promise was made; and it was ordained by angels in the hand of a mediator.

As you had rightly quoted at first. And even in the bid to twist the scripture, your resort to modern translations, whose authors' integrity no one knows, the scripture still says the same things. Quoting your version:

GOD'S WORD® Translation
What, then, is the purpose of the laws given to Moses?They were added to identify what wrongdoing is . Moses' laws did this until the descendant to whom the promise was given came to Abraham. It was put into effect through angels, using a mediator.

Whichever way you look at it, the scripture says the same thing and meant the "traditional" meaning as you have rightly stated in the begining:



And not this twisted meaning of yours:



Whether you appropriate it or not, the blessing of the NT is that there is a generation that do not live by the laws of Moses anymore; there transgression has been blotted out; I dare to say they live "above the law". Yes, there is the law of God imprinted on their heart and with the help of the Spirit they will bear fruits in love; but they are a generation who transgression and sin have been blotted out.

Let us not derail the thread. It is about tithing and discussing the discuss going on in the discuss thread.

I will leave you alone; Goshen will come and handle you for daring to quote him.

Have you ever read these verses in your bible (1 Timothy 1):

7 Desiring to be teachers of the law; understanding neither what they say, nor whereof they affirm.

Oops some want to teach the law but lack understanding of its true purpose - saith Paul not me!

8 But we know that the law is good, if a man use it lawfully;

I am sure you came across where Candour and Miwerd did justice to this verse in the discuss. If you will use the law; use it lawfully. Don't turn something agricultural to be given to Levithes to something monetary to be given to Pastor and still call it tithe! Use the law lawfully!

9 Knowing this, that the law is not made for a righteous man, but for the lawless and disobedient,

This is where I am going with all the gist. The law is not made for the righteous. The one who is made righteous by faith in Christ. It is made for:

for the ungodly and for sinners, for unholy and profane, for murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers, for manslayers, 10 For whoremongers, for them that defile themselves with mankind, for menstealers, for liars, for perjured persons, and if there be any other thing that is contrary to sound doctrine;

Are you any of the above that you are so concerned about this law?

I trust you are getting the drift. Now consider:

11 According to the glorious gospel of the blessed God, which was committed to my trust.

There is a glorious gospel. It is the gospel of God's grace to man. It says there has been an end to the law that there may be no transgression for the righteous. Yes, we are called to good works but this glorious gospel has blessed us with something beyond what we can earn with our good works.

My prayer is that you understand these things... after years of discussing them with you.

Bidam:

KJV Galatians 3:19 Wherefore then serveth the law? It was added because of transgressions ...


The Levitical priesthood was added because of the sin of the golden calf.

- Drummaboy

THE LEVITICAL PRIESTHOOD WAS OUR TUTOR TO BRING US TO MESSIAH.

KJV Galatians 3:24 Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.

The law = Levitical Priesthood which was added because of the transgression of the golden calf

30 And all the tithe of the land, whether of the seed of the land, or of the fruit of the tree, is the LORD'S: it is holy unto the LORD. 31 And if a man will at all redeem ought of his tithes, he shall add thereto the fifth part thereof. 32 And concerning the tithe of the herd, or of the flock, even of whatsoever passeth under the rod, the tenth shall be holy unto the LORD. 33 He shall not search whether it be good or bad, neither shall he change it: and if he change it at all, then both it and the change thereof shall be holy; it shall not be redeemed.

7 Every man according as he purposeth in his heart, so let him give; not grudgingly, or of necessity: for God loveth a cheerful giver.

Candour]:

RESPONSE TO REBUTTAL M5

We will once again remind our brethren that we are having this discussion because of a lot of Lies that have been told the children of God to force tithes out of them, particularly these four below

1. If you don't tithe, you will burn in hell for ever.

2. If you don’t tithe, you’ll have devourers like accidents, sickness, job loss, financial backwardness etc but if you do, you’ll have plenty money, sickness free life etc.

3. Pay tithe as eternal principle to prove Abraham is your father according to Gen 14 and Heb 7

4. Pay tithe to your pastor because he is senior to you in the order of priesthood of Melchizedek

But for the above lies, particularly the ones in bold, we won’t be discussing this issue. I also noticed that our brothers conveniently shied away from confronting head on, the truths and facts below

trustman: What Image123 and partner need to understand are these:
- They cannot run away from the fact that tithing is given an undue emphasis today that it
does not require. If not this discuss may never have come up. When discussants focus
on it it is not because of cherry picking. It is because it is a necessary focus on an issue
in view. If animal sacrifice were the bone of contention there will necessarily be more
focus on it that any other issue.
- Not being under the Law includes the issue that anything clearly shown to be abrogated
under the Law is no longer required of the Christian today. What will show whether a
thing under the Law - whether it is called weightier matter or whatever - is still in
operation today is if it is clearly expressed in the New Testament epistles. And these are
clearly seen in the epistles. The spirit of God cannot lead any man of God apart from
the specific scriptures that are more relevant to the Christian today than those that are
not – The New Testament epistles. Thus the spirit of God can NEVER ask a Christian to
resort to animal sacrifices TODAY even though these were a NECESSARY and
BINDING requirement in the Word of God for a time – only for a time. Failure of
many preachers to find things in the New Testament to support their skewed positions
on many issues make them to resort to the Old Testament almost always. When they
therefore cannot find clear instruction on any issue such as tithing in the New Testament
they must then try to prove that things in the old – things in the Law – must still be
applicable to the Christian today.
- God remains the God of Abraham and Jacob. But when God says that His SON – God’s
final Word - is superior to ALL we need to say ‘Yes, Sir’ rather than engage in a
wrestling match with God. What we should seek is how the Son is superior, what things
the Son has brought that shows his superiority, and so on. If tithe is all they see in ALL
SCRIPTURE rather than the SON then such a Christian’s spiritual status needs to
checked very well.

Image123: PRESENTING R6 Our tithing is because Jesus never condemned it and suggested that it ought to be done. (Luke 11:42)

Luk 11:42 But woe unto you, Pharisees! for ye tithe mint and rue and all manner of herbs, and pass over judgment and the love of God: these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone.

Jesus Christ is the author and finisher of the christian faith. He is the One christians are supposed to follow, the One who ought to be obeyed rather than men. The above Scripture was spoken by Him while He was here on earth physically. Anyone that knows Jesus knows that He is the Truth. He is the Word made flesh, the Way personified. Jesus Christ said Himself that the words that He speaks are Spirit and Life. Therefore, we ought to give the more earnest heed to His words.

It would be good if we gave heed to what He said about tithes. He said
Luk 11:42 But woe unto you, Pharisees! for ye tithe mint and rue and all manner of herbs, and pass over judgment and the love of God: these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone.

Here it is AGAIN from Matthew, so that we can be doubly sure He's not making a slip in opinion.
Mat 23:23 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have omitted the weightier matters of the law, judgment, mercy, and faith: these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone.

These ought ye to have done. His words cannot pass away. He could not be giving advice that is not the will of God to anyone, even if such a fellow is the devil. These ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone. Are we to leave judgement, mercy and faith undone? Certainly not!

Image123:
In the words of trustman on the sister thread, "God’s final Word - is superior to ALL. We need to say ‘Yes, Sir’ rather than engage in a wrestling match with God. What we should seek is how the Son is superior, what things the Son has brought that shows his superiority, and so on."


END

EMILO2STAY: image & Co, have turned to outright dishonesty just to keep up with the argument. Denying they've never heard tithe preachers use hell, poorverty, sickness and devourer to coerce poeple into paying tithe to churches is like denying they've never heard any preacher use malachi 3.8. Am sure even many protithers themselves will be stunned by there denial.

It is nice to wear socks for warmth etc so the secondary school authorities insist on socks which must be white for all students. If I didn’t wear socks or it wasn’t white enough, I received strokes of the cane. However, as an adult now, if I like I can wear red, black or even pink socks, no one can query me because I am now an adult. There are even times I feel uncomfortable wearing socks and I won’t simply because I don’t feel like it. Once again, no one can query or punish me because I’m an adult. So it is with the Christian. The lesson is not about wearing white socks but its about wearing socks for warmth etc. Giving is the lesson or principle we learn, not paying 10%.

EMILO2STAY: image & Co, have turned to outright dishonesty just to keep up with the argument. Denying they've never heard tithe preachers use hell, poorverty, sickness and devourer to coerce poeple into paying tithe to churches is like denying they've never heard any preacher use malachi 3.8. Am sure even many protithers themselves will be stunned by there denial.

That statement "The Devil is a Liar" is incorrect. "Image123 is a Liar" should be the correct statement cos Image123 lied about something, i posted a picture evidence, he still lied in the face of realistic evidence and even threatened that i will burn in "hell fire" for providing evidence.

Image123 needs Jesus T.B Joshua.

Pastor Kun:

It is impossible to be a tithe preacher and be honest, the two just don't mix.

DrummaBoy: @trustman,.so we can say Image quoted U correctly. But did U mean what he claimed U meant or he succeeded in twisting your words?

Image123

Indeed, Early Jewish Christians eligible to pay tithes would have paid BUT ONLY TO LEVITES at the temple NOT TO THE APOSTLES. Also, early christians paid MORE THAN 10% to the apostles, making nonsense of the present day fear of giving the apostles 10%. Same applies to all christians, whether jew or Gentile, they gave MORE THAN 10% in the church. An apostle wrote to a gentile church to give in proportion. The text rightly states every one of you. This was the mode of operation in an early church. They had a specific day, and EVERY ONE was to give. i guess every one means EVERY ONE? Free will every one. Newsflash, i say it again, i give my tithes free will.