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| Re: Word Of Faith - The Movement's Doctrine And Proponents by nannymcphee(f): 11:44pm On Aug 07, 2014 |
Candour: Thanks, wonderful exposition, earnestly waiting for ur response to the answers(2posts) I provided for ur questions Truth be told though, these are things I have believed in for a long time, it will take awhile before I readjust, but I'm up to it |
| Re: Word Of Faith - The Movement's Doctrine And Proponents by Candour(m): 12:19am On Aug 08, 2014 |
nannymcphee: When I mentioned positive confessions, I was just looking at the opposite of the negative confessions that our brother therealmccain talked about. He gave the following examples of negative words 1. I'm no good 2. I'll never amount to anything 3. I'm barren 4. I'll never succeed in this business The positive opposites will be 1. I'm very good 2. I'll amount to something 3. I'm fruitful not barren 4. I'll succeed in this business. Well my sister, muttering these words alone have no effect on someone's life. If you refuse to go to school, work and get engaged in something productive, no matter how many times you confess positively, it will be an exercise in futility except of course you've veered into new thought and the metaphysical to utilize the energy in the universe to alter reality. If you ask me if praying to God can change things, I'll say sure it can but just confessing won't change anything. My mum was shouting never never again will she enter the labour ward after my last sister. That was as negative a confession as any. Yet 5 years down the line, our last born, a boy popped out about 25 years ago. If confessions could do it, my naughty brother wouldn't be 419ing me today. If my mum didn't want another child, she should have done a good family planning or prayed (peradventure God would oblige). Those scriptures you quoted have nothing to do with positive confessions. They're promises from God that held true whether the audience believed it, confessed it or not. Reading the scripture would boost your confidence to face the challenge and expect deliverance, not change your reality. Its the promise their in that has that capability. The odd one is the words from prophet Joel which wasn't a promise and I'll advice that context matters a lot. Let's see it Joel 3:9-10 KJV Proclaim ye this among the Gentiles; Prepare war, wake up the mighty men, let all the men of war draw near; let them come up: [10] Beat your plowshares into swords, and your pruninghooks into spears: let the weak say, I am strong. In verse 9, God had asked the men of war(soldiers) to get ready for battle. In verse 10 which you quoted, he obviously was talking to farmers hence asking them to convert their plowshares and pruning hooks into weapons. He was encouraging them to act like the soldiers and be numbered among the strong for battle. He wasn't talking about sick people confessing strength. The same way you'll encourage a lazy child to get up and be useful. I'm glad you know of napoleon hill and his positive confession teachings. The world uses the techniques and it obviously works for them like you said but we should be honest enough to admit its not christian in origin or nature. God's promises are not subject to confessions for them to work and surely God didn't use this technique to create the universe. 2 Likes |
| Re: Word Of Faith - The Movement's Doctrine And Proponents by Candour(m): 12:23am On Aug 08, 2014 |
nannymcphee: I understand my sister. The Lord is your muscle and he has promised not to leave nor forsake you. Hold to that promise and continue your study in his word. I'm working on the other posts. 1 Like |
| Re: Word Of Faith - The Movement's Doctrine And Proponents by trustman: 12:24am On Aug 08, 2014 |
Candour: The bolded again shows how very critical it is to get the CONTEXT of any Bible passage right. Right interpretation, right application. Wrong interpretation, wrong application. 1 Like |
| Re: Word Of Faith - The Movement's Doctrine And Proponents by Candour(m): 12:53am On Aug 08, 2014 |
nannymcphee: You're correct about the words of God at Babel being generic and that is why I wonder why we Christians seek to appropriate it exclusively to the christian experience. The episode at Babel was about fallen depraved man and God affirmed he still had enough inside him to perform wonders. Is there any wonder then that the atheists, Buddhists, etc in asia are leading the world in technological advancement today? Mankind was given the wherewithal to do things and that ability was never lost. What we lost in eden was immortality. What was cursed in eden was the earth and since our flesh is made from the earth, it will grow weak, die and decay. However as Christians, our souls are redeemed and we now have the spirit of God operating in us. We will get the incorruptible body that will never grow weak and die when Christ comes to take us home. I agree with you on the other scriptures you quoted and i agree this one below too applies to all humans Proverbs 10:4 KJV He becometh poor that dealeth with a slack hand: but the hand of the diligent maketh rich. Any diligent human being whether christian or not has the potential to make it in life unlike the way modern Christianity has made it look like only financial contributors to the church can succeed leading to superstitions about giving that holds God's children in bondage. 3 Likes |
| Re: Word Of Faith - The Movement's Doctrine And Proponents by nannymcphee(f): 6:03am On Aug 08, 2014 |
Candour: Firstly thanks, I'm grateful for all ur replies, they are rich & lengthy. I'm sure it took some of ur time pls can u throw more light on the above quote, if there are helpful links kindly provide them too On a personal note, how do u pray? If u found urself in the situations I gave in my post, how will u pray or go about You said Gods word will not change ones reality but give someone confidence to face a situation? pls explain Phew!!! 9 solid years!! How do I begin the reconstructive surgery?? I have loads of questions |
| Re: Word Of Faith - The Movement's Doctrine And Proponents by nannymcphee(f): 6:04am On Aug 08, 2014 |
OP & co, I hope I haven't derailed this thread o!! Nor be my fault, I nor wan lost!!! |
| Re: Word Of Faith - The Movement's Doctrine And Proponents by Candour(m): 7:27am On Aug 08, 2014 |
nannymcphee: No wahala. It was the network problems that made it seem difficult. pls can u throw more light on the above quote, if there are helpful links kindly provide them too I pray in line with the scripture below and trust God to do it. Philippians 4:6 KJV Be careful for nothing; but in every thing by prayer and supplication with thanksgiving let your requests be made known unto God. After this, my mind gets to rest on this scripture Philippians 4:7 KJV And the peace of God, which passeth all understanding, shall keep your hearts and minds through Christ Jesus. Remembering this Romans 8:26 KJV Likewise the Spirit also helpeth our infirmities: for we know not what we should pray for as we ought: but the Spirit itself maketh intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered. There are some requests we have that we might not know how to verbalise. As children of the most high, the holy spirit in us knows how to pray on our behalf according to the above scripture. Its pertinent also to know that prayer isn't about making requests all the time. Prayer is communication with God the same way we communicate with our earthly parents and we sure don't talk to them only when we need something. If u found urself in the situations I gave in my post, how will u pray or go about Simply cry out to God to effect a change in the situation and he will according to his love and will for us. Then i refuse to give in to fear because my whole being believe the scriptures below Romans 8:31 KJV What shall we then say to these things? If God be for us, who can be against us? 1 John 4:4 KJV Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world. I hand over to God like Moses and the Israelites at the red sea and trust him to take care of the rest. Also if you're the one who needs to change and make adjustments, do not procrastinate, do it. You said Gods word will not change ones reality but give someone confidence to face a situation? pls explain Hmmm... I really don't know how to explain it but how will repeating Isaiah 43 change your situation? Prayer isnt about confessing positively or reciting scriptures. Praying with the promises in that chapter isn't the same as engaging in vain repetitions as Jesus described below Matthew 6:7 KJV But when ye pray, use not vain repetitions, as the heathen do : for they think that they shall be heard for their much speaking. We were asked to pray my sister, not confess scripture like using a talisman. Phew!!! 9 solid years!! How do I begin the reconstructive surgery?? By intensive study of the word my sister. If I could become free, then so can you. I have loads of questions I can imagine but can we please take a break and allow the discussants continue? We could revisit after they're through. Thanks a lot. 1 Like |
| Re: Word Of Faith - The Movement's Doctrine And Proponents by Image123(m): 9:09am On Aug 08, 2014 |
i can imagine if i was doing the interlude, lol. |
| Re: Word Of Faith - The Movement's Doctrine And Proponents by DrummaBoy(m): 11:46am On Aug 08, 2014 |
Candour: Candour please know that this Q and A is not hindering the discuss at all. BabaGnoni or trustman will post when they are ready. They are reading the discuss and know when to come in. If the lady has questions, she should feel free to ask and that is anytime on this thread. It is not hindering our discuss. Let me chip in something here in addition to the above. I learnt one phrase from Bro Gbile Akaani: begging God. Prayer is the old English words for pleading. Its taking me a lot of effort to stop commanding God around in prayers. I am learning to plead with him now. Pleading of course in faith and then cast my cares on him. While discussing WOF here, I witnessed some real problems. I was almost going to blame it on my discussions here. I was led to Philippians 2 where Paul said Epaphroditus was ill but God had mercy on him and on Paul too so that he doesn't sorrow upon sorrow. Why did he use that language? Its bc he had been begging God; not commanding him or even rebuking demons. And in response to his plea God had mercy on them both and healed Epaphroditus. God had mercy on me too o. And saved me from sorrow. I am not saying Christians cannot rebuke demons (cases arise in some very real demonic encounters that the Christian should rebuke the devil in Jesus name). I am simply saying that the attitude of confessing positively which we use to replace sincere praying is not biblical. 4 Likes |
| Re: Word Of Faith - The Movement's Doctrine And Proponents by trustman: 2:37pm On Aug 08, 2014 |
[size=16pt]MY SUBMISSION ON F10: Name-a-Seed or Seed Faith doctrine[/size] Introduction I know of at least one Anglican Church here in Nigeria where the Vicar asks members to ‘sow seeds’ of faith and then ‘water’ the ‘seeds’ monthly to ensure that it grows well and produces the desired results. I do not know if this applies to the entire denomination or whether individual churches are fairly independent in some regards, but the bottom line is that it is now been practiced here. So for those who are still looking out for “when it finally enters Nigeria” what they need to do is simply open their eyes to see that all that we have been saying are already here. The simple truth is that WoF teachings have infiltrated virtually every church group and denomination in Nigeria, some to a lesser and others to a higher degree. Seed-Faith Theology What is “seed-faith” teaching? Seed-faith teaching is part of the WoF movement’s teaching that is tied to their claim that God wants to make every Christian healthy and wealthy in this life, and the means said to bring this prosperity about is “sowing seeds in faith”, and the ‘seed’ sown is money. Sowers are encouraged to “sow seeds” in order to have their needs met. “Planting a seed of faith” in WoF terms is in effect giving their ministries or a ‘man of God’ money with the hope that there will be some 60, 80 or 100-fold return on the money given. But it doesn’t stop there; salvation is also included as part of the harvest you will reap if only you would sow your money. It may come in different names such as ‘covenant seed’ and other variants, but the system is still the same. Modern Day “Indulgences” Many may be aware of times when the church literarily drifted off course in history. One of such time was when Johann Tetzel ‘operated’. The church needed lots of money to finance its bloated set ups. To raise this money it resorted to many gimmicks. The spiritual life of the people was secondary to what the clergy wanted. In order to support the lavish lifestyles of the clergy (like today’s?) the Pope Leo X sent out couriers who could sell “remission of sins” to the people. The more you can give the better your chances of having your sins done away with. Among these hawkers, and one of the most successful, was a man named Johann Tetzel. He engaged in selling "indulgences" in Germany in 1517. Tetzel stated that anyone who bought an indulgence could not only choose a soul to be freed from purgatory, but could shorten his own term in purgatory. His slogan to buyers was: "When the coin in the coffer rings, a soul from purgatory springs." It was the selling of indulgences that eventually led Martin Luther not only to hold public debate but to later on nail his ‘objections’ to the church door which eventually led to the reformation. The indulgences of Luther’s time targeted what would appear to be a spiritual issue – obtaining pardon from sin. The ‘indulgences’ of today – seed faith and its variants – promises monetary or physical returns for money given; it’s for the here and now. At that time Luther stood on the ground that God’s favour was not for sale. Can we learn from history? Even though this kind of scheme has been carried out before in history (ref. Johann Tetzel -), Oral Roberts is reputed to be the originator of the modern trend [/b]we see today. [b]Joyce Meyer, one of his protégée said this, “When I talked with Dr. Roberts today and we talked about this seed-faith thing, he said…when you give you get a receipt in heaven that when you have a need you can then go with your receipt and say ‘You see, God, I have got my receipt from my sowing and now I have a need and I’m cashing in my receipt’” (Joyce Meyer, Praise the Lord, TBN, November 3, 2003). Roberts has used the seed-faith scheme to raise several millions of dollars; its that ‘profitable’. Rod Parsley said that for only $50 sent to Parsley’s ministry: “Salvation for your family….Is that what you really want, to know that all of your children are saved, to pillow your head at night knowing if Jesus split the eastern sky, that your children are all within the ark of safety? Is that what you want? Then sow for it.” “I believe God will give you a harvest of protection from deception and an uncommon ability to discern between truth and error in your life….First, God is going to release to you the ability to hear and recognize His voice as never before. Second, protection over your decisions. I’m believing with you for one year of no bad choices in your life. Finally, thirdly, protection from the deception of the adversary” (Rod Parsley, Breakthrough, TBN, May 24, 2006). Hank Hanegraaff, president of the Christian Research Institute, lists the following as those who teach this theology, in addition to Roberts, Meyer, and Parsley: Essek William Kenyon, Kenneth Hagin, Kenneth Copeland, Benny Hinn, Joel Osteen, John Hagee, Creflo Dollar, T. D. Jakes, Frederick K. C. Price, John Avanzini, Robert Tilton, Marilyn Hickey, Charles Capps, Jerry Savelle, Morris Cerullo, Paul Crouch, Juanita Bynum, Paula White, and Todd Bentley (Christianity in Crisis: 21st Century, Thomas Nelson: Nashville, 2009, p15-82) Imagine being in a service and the "man of God" claims to have received a special word from God that goes something like this: "As I waited on the Lord in the place of prayer in preparation for today’s meeting the Holy Ghost came on me strongly and told me that there are many people here tonight that are believing God for something special. Some of you have been trusting God for a long time for that special thing. God has told me to tell you that if you obey him this night and plant a seed faith of N1,000 or more God is going to intervene in that your situation and that your special need will be miraculously met! In the name of Jesus!" Words like these sure have a way of getting anyone to give! Giving to get back in return all that you desire is something that is too good for many to let pass by them. In our world of WIIFM (What’s In It For Me?) the upfront offer of the benefit becomes very alluring to anyone particularly those who trust that their leaders are always right. This is what seed-faith preachers do. The teaching is in opposition to GRACE, pressuring Christians into works as a way to earning either God’s approval or getting things from Him. All that we receive from God is on the basis of what Christ did on the cross. Tying it to man’s work disregards grace. The teaching of seed-faith is a well crafted scheme by these WoF teachers to fleece the sheep of God, making them live in opulent lifestyles while impoverishing the flock just as it happened before in church history. Modern day WoF preachers present these catchphrases not for the good of the followers but to enable them build bigger structures, promote the kind of image of their ministries that they want, acquire camp grounds to belong to an elite class of ‘men of God’ and of course live lives of luxury beyond the rest of the flock in contrast to what Jesus did with his disciples. A look a Bible Passage used to prove their claim A number of bible passages are used by these WoF teachers to support their claim on this teaching. One of them is Luke 6:38: “Give, and it will be given to you. A good measure, pressed down, shaken together and running over, will be poured into your lap. For with the measure you use, it will be measured to you”. WoF preachers claim that this means when one gives to their ministries and by extension God, that such a one will receive things back in return. But does that passage teach that? The direct context of this verse (6:37-42) is judging others and forgiveness. Thus the giving in mind here is that of extending mercy rather than any reference giving of money or any other material thing. In addition, the reward referred to here is not explicitly stated to be in physical or material things, therefore tying it to monetary reward or physical blessings as the WoF teachers do is a wrong application of this portion of scripture. WoF teachers’ way of interpreting scripture is suspect. Instead of using line upon line, precept upon precept they just simply choose what they want verse or portion of scripture to say and run by it. The use of such a system to present a ‘doctrine’ that ends up conning people out of their money is not only unbiblical but evil. The NT model for giving As has been stated previously in these our discourses, the pattern for giving for the Christian is quite clear in the NT. The Christian is to give as he decides in his heart, not reluctantly or UNDER COMPULSION – 2 Corinthians 9: 6-8. The seed-faith teaching violates the scripture given above. Its teachers in most instances coerce believers to give. They stress that the seed faith giving facilitates God’s response; it acts as a catalyst to move God to act. That is getting people to give UNDER COMPULSION. See Paul’s example 2 Corinthians 12: 14-15a – “Here for the third time I am ready to come to you. And I will not be a burden, for I seek not what is yours but you. For children are not obligated to save up for their parents, but parents for their children. I will most gladly spend and be spent for your souls.” I wonder how many of the WoF preachers can truly say this today. Some Dangers - Like indulgences, contemporary seed-faith teachers are offering not just spiritual blessings but also material blessings for sale as well. For God to intervene in your situation you must pay for it. God’s blessing has essentially been reduced to a business transaction. The bigger your seed is the bigger your expected harvest will be. - It plays down the dangers of wealth. Wealth can be a barrier to salvation. The gospel account of Jesus meeting the rich young ruler in Matthew 19:16-26 clearly shows this. The love of money is a root of all kinds of evil – 1 Timothy 6:8-10: “If we have food and covering, with these we shall be content. But those who want to get rich fall into temptation and a snare and many foolish and harmful desires which plunge men into ruin and destruction. For the love of money is a root of all sorts of evil, and some by longing for it have wandered away from the faith and pierced themselves with many griefs.” People will do awful things to gratify their monetary lust. So the Scripture gives us this warning. - It undermines God’s purposes of suffering in the life of the believer. Whereas the WoF and seed-faith teaching says that God desires only for us to be healthy, happy, and wealthy the reality is that not only is that not so but God actually uses suffering to advance the believer. Acts 14:22 says: “Through many tribulations we must enter the kingdom of God.” Conclusion Christian giving should be out of a pure motivation not from a desire to get more and more. Christian giving is not only monetary. In Matthew 25: 31-40 the acts of visiting those in prison, giving food and drink, welcoming strangers, clothing the naked, etc were commended by Jesus. The WoF preachers on the other hand majorly emphasize the giving of money. These wrong teachings about how the Christian is to give need to be done away with. Martin Luther’s protest against the wrong things the church was doing during his time is still very relevant today as many have gone back to the same paths as the church did then. Giving money to get something in return from God is like the selling of indulgences, whether the name has changed to seed-faith or whatever. It is wrong. I REST MY CASE ON F10, FOR NOW. 7 Likes |
| Re: Word Of Faith - The Movement's Doctrine And Proponents by BabaGnoni: 3:56pm On Aug 09, 2014 |
[size=16pt]MY SUBMISSION ON F10: Name-a-Seed or Seed Faith doctrine[/size]  Name-a-Seed or Seed Faith are catchy phrases doctrine similar to "Name it... Claim it" doctrine earlier discussed on this thread It is another WoF formula, and unsurprisingly centers and anchors on money. It teaches that: one should name one's seed before one plants it and then reap a harvest (i.e. name money before donating or handing the money over and then have what the money was named afterwards) The doctrine is also known as "sow a seed for your need" It is nothing but glorified indulgences (i.e. the unauthorised RCC indulgences formerly practiced by Johann Tetze). It was Oral Roberts that revived the indulgences formerly practiced by Tetze, he repackaged, developed, promoted and championed it as seed-faith teaching Scriptures like Matthew 13:23 are twisted to validate or back it up and then used to exploit victim's obsession with possession of financial or material gains by running TV teachings on it and sending direct mail campaigns of seed-faith. But as for what was sown on good soil, this is the person who hears the word, understands it, and produces a crop that yields 100, 60, or 30 times what was sown. - Matthew 13:23 ISV The doctrine is all about money, just as with the WoF tithing doctrine, where agricultural tithe was twisted and converted from seed/crop produce to money. Here too WoF again with this doctrine have turned the seed or what was sown (i.e. which is the word of God) in Matthew 13:23 into money and the fertile ground or good soil (i.e. which is the heart) that Jesus spoke about in same verse to WoF movement's ministry. Her leaders judge for the money, her priests teach only when they're paid , and her prophets prophesy for cash. Even so, don't they all rely on the LORD as they ask, 'The LORD is among us, is he not? Nothing bad can possibly happen to us!' - Micah 3:11 ISV Like greedy dogs, they are never satisfied. They are ignorant shepherds, all following their own path and intent on personal gain. - Isaiah 56:11 NLT It is noticeable in all WoF doctrines so far discussed how the understanding and perception of God is continually changing one moment, God is a bom-boy at someone's beck and call, and ready to do any bidding subject to that one's slightest wish. next moment God is a genie, capable of granting wishes when called upon. Now, this time, "Name-a-Seed or Seed Faith" doctrine turns the unsuspecting into a magician, capable of pulling not just a rabbit, but anything else too, out of the hat, all needs done, is just remember to do the "Name-a-Seed or Seed Faith" abracadabra "I create as I speak" word when performing the magic trick, and voila out will pop the named. 18When Simon saw that the Spirit was given when the apostles laid their hands on people, he offered them money to buy this power. 19“Let me have this power, too,” he exclaimed, “so that when I lay my hands on people, they will receive the Holy Spirit!” 20But Peter replied, “May your money be destroyed with you for thinking God’s gift can be bought! 21You can have no part in this, for your heart is not right with God. 22Repent of your wickedness and pray to the Lord. Perhaps he will forgive your evil thoughts - Acts 8: 18-22 NLT There is a lesson to be learned from the above passage, as it shows that, the reason for doing something, must be right. One does not give or offer money in return to buy power, to obtain financial or material gains etc And I have been a constant example of how you can help those in need by working hard. You should remember the words of the Lord Jesus: 'It is more blessed to give than to receive.' - Acts 20:35 NLT One works hard (i.e. as there are no short-cuts to success, riches or wealth) and God who gives the power to get wealth, will bless all the work of one's hands and so that one will be able to help the poor or those in need (i.e. for details, refer to Deuteronomy 8:18, 15:10 and 28:12) If it is blessings, one is after, then one is more blessed to give, than one is to receive, as stated in Acts 20:35 above. Lastly, any teaching for money that promises having that which was named, from God, in return for the money given, is nothing except a sweet-talk cajoling scam, as there is no precedent of this kind or form of teaching in the bible. Anyone with ears to hear, should listen and understand! (i.e. Matthew 11:15 NLT, Revelation 13:9 NLT) [size=16pt]MY SUBMISSION ON F10: Name-a-Seed or Seed Faith doctrine[/size] I REST MY CASE ON F10, FOR NOW. 5 Likes |
| Re: Word Of Faith - The Movement's Doctrine And Proponents by ichuka(m): 7:08pm On Aug 09, 2014 |
Great work Guy's,bring it on!! 2 Likes |
| Re: Word Of Faith - The Movement's Doctrine And Proponents by nuwell(m): 5:45pm On Aug 10, 2014 |
Candour: 2 Likes |
| Re: Word Of Faith - The Movement's Doctrine And Proponents by DrummaBoy(m): 7:53pm On Aug 10, 2014 |
[size=16pt]MY SUBMISSION ON F10: Name-a-Seed or Seed Faith doctrine[/size] Jim Baker in his post prison books "I was Wrong" and "Prosperity and the Coming Apocalypse" only fell short of mentioning "Word of Faith" in his texts. Everything he wrote against in those two books were carefully crafted to reveal the errors in the faith movement. Having been a faith teacher himself, the world listened to his testimony. Baker stated everything that was wrong with the Prosperity Gospel. He spoke of how heart broken he became when in a trip to Singapore, post prison, he discovered that the Singaporeans had taken "his" former gospel to a crass level. I was almost going to ask him to visit Ibadan/Nigeria and he would faint from heart break. Those two books are worthy reads. One incident from the book is worth mentioning. It was a dream he had in prison. A man approached him - intuitively he knew he was Jesus. The man took out a slice from his own eye and placed it on Baker's telling him he wanted him to see as he sees. When he woke up, he grabbed a bible and began reading only the words of Jesus with the aid of a red lettered bible. He said he discovered that Jesus said nothing good about money in the whole of the NT. In the appendix of "Prosperity..." he listed some of those scriptures. For me that was instructive. Now coming to the matter of Seed Faith, he explained that the thing could be likened to the greed of Gehazi, Elisha's servant. He said the end result is always leprosy. He exemplified this using an evangelist that used to minister on his Cable TV station. The man would minister "powerfully" and end it all with fund raising. Their usual practice; just that the manner this evangelist went about his made even Baker cringe. This evangelist, whom he didn't name, is today dead. Died of modern day leprosy - AIDS. When Jesus said a man cannot serve two Masters; he would either love one and hate the other. You cannot serve God and Mammon at the same time, he knew exactly what he was saying and our Master practiced it: Jesus made a thief his treasurer. I am not sure many churches want to emulate that aspect of Christ likeness. But it unveils for us the attitude the Master had towards money. The question we need to ask at this junction is this: at what point did money replace devotion to God in churches, especially WOF churches? Possibly from the very beginning. Acts 8 records a man called Simon a magician, who was said to be a "great power of God" (sound like a "great man of God" to me). He had won the devotion of the people of Samaria, only for Philip to come along and steal the show. When the apostles came to strengthen the new disciples in this city, Simon approaches Peter and offers him cash for the anointing. Peter promptly rebukes him, explaining his heart condition as wicked. If Simon had succeeded in purchasing the anonting, he would have gone unto selling it; continuing a business he knew so well. This is the root of men merchandizing the gospel and the heart that birth the seed faith business. Having been closely associated with the WOF movement for no less than 15 years, I can say without a shadow of doubt that WOF does ministry wholely and solely for GAIN. I confess that there are a few honest ones amongst them but the overwhelming majority end up corrupting even these ones. Making it seem as if this ministry of money is OK. Two incidences will help depict this: A lady minister is ministering in this church I am in. After a very heart warming message. She begin to solicit for funds for the church. The Pastor quickly approach her and informs her through whisper in the ears to desist. She does so reluctantly. A year or so after, an Ilorin "great MOG" also comes to minister. He informs the church that money must be collected after his preaching "by God's leading" in defiance to the church's position that had been well conveyed to him. The poor pastor that stopped the first one, could not stop the second. Yours truly might have been the only person in the whole church that day that didn't give a seed faith. A supposed leading from God to collect money outweighed a well thought out church position not to merchandise the gospel. I am glad that trustman has very correctly likened Seed Faith to 16th century indulgence in the days of Luther. The only difference is that the people of those days were more spiritually than today's Christians. They gave indulgence for spiritual things (though lies) that included remission of sins, exit from purgatory and entrance to heaven. Modern day indulgence, ie Seed Faith, promises physical things only. Its a pity. Oral Roberts taught WOF Seed Faith. He is the father of the doctrine and earliest propagator. Oral Roberts is modern day Johann Tetzel. Oral Roberts must however be credited for setting up the ORU. Where in 1981 its theological department produced a thesis by one D. R. McConnell that is today the soundest research ever done on the whole Word of Faith movement. Christianity owes it to Bro McConnell for this work of research that will later be published as a book under the title "A Different Gospel". I am yet to find a single paper on the errors of WOF that does not quote this book. When did the centre focus of gospel preaching shift from Jesus Christ to the money ostensibly needed to propagate it? When did the central theme of scripture shift from the cross of the Messiah to Seed Faith; so much so that WOF teaches us that God was practicing Seed Faith when Jesus died on the cross? When did the gospel cease to be free? When did the gospel become so expensive to propagate? When did results replace faith in Christendom? When did Christians start to measure spirituality by the abundance of things they possess? When did godliness and gain become synonymous? When and how did Seed Faith become the gospel of Jesus Christ? These are questions even the greatest supporters of WOF should be ashamed of reading, talk less of attempting to answer. [size=16pt]MY SUBMISSION ON F10: Name-a-Seed or Seed Faith doctrine[/size] I REST MY CASE ON F10 6 Likes |
| Re: Word Of Faith - The Movement's Doctrine And Proponents by BabaGnoni: 11:47pm On Aug 12, 2014 |
[size=16pt]MY SUBMISSION ON F11: Staged leg lengthening healing[/size] Does miracles still happen today? Does healing still happen today? Of course, they both happen, they happen every seconds of the time, the only concern or reservation is that for every genuine miracle or healing, there are ten to the dozen fakes, counterfeits or staged versions for each.  Staged leg lengthening healing is not a doctrine as such but was a phenomenon until a few years back Leg lengthening healing otherwise known as "growing legs" was common as far back in the mid 70s It basically is lengthening of shortened legs In the past, the mid 70s to be precise, a few WoF heavy weights were doing and performing leg lengthening healing, then in 2011, Derren Brown decided to infiltrate and expose fake pastors staging leg lengthening healing, the trail on leg lengthening healing since then has gone cold after ousting American televangelist Pastor W. V. Grant Grant unaware of Derren Brown's identity, actually performed the leg lengthening healing on Derren Brown who himself had no length-wise leg handicap whatsoever. The recorded TV program showed, Pastor Grant using the same shoe-manipulation technique that Brown had earlier shown viewers on the "Miracles for Sale" TV program how the fake healing is done. People did not know before the "Miracles for Sale" TV program was aired back then, that some of these "growing legs" healing or miracles actually weren't genuine. - this particular one featured in the program was bogus and nothing but a sleight, lots of the unsuspecting, Christians and church leaders included were taken in by it. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PVOBZefESIA Rev Kenneth E Hagin Teaching Seminar December 8th 1974 Lengthening of legs Staged leg lengthening healing was usually done by complicit ministries to fraudulently have healing credibility badges and make the public believe they have an authentic healing ministry - the jury is still out, undecided whether the above video clip is a staged or genuine leg lengthening healing. Do not let anyone deceive you in any way, for it will not come unless the rebellion takes place first and the man of sin, who is destined for destruction, is revealed. - 2 Thessalonians 2:3 ISV But Jesus replied, "Only an evil, adulterous generation would demand a miraculous sign; but the only sign I will give them is the sign of the prophet Jonah. - Matthew 12:39 NLT False messiahs and false prophets will appear. They will work miraculous signs and do wonderful things to deceive, if possible, those whom God has chosen. - Mark 13:22 GOD'S WORD® Translation [size=16pt]MY SUBMISSION ON F11: Staged leg lengthening healing[/size] I REST MY CASE ON F11 4 Likes |
| Re: Word Of Faith - The Movement's Doctrine And Proponents by trustman: 7:12am On Aug 15, 2014 |
[size=16pt]MY SUBMISSION ON F11: Staged leg lengthening healing[/size][/color] LEG LENGTHENING ‘MIRACLES” "For there are many who are insubordinate, empty talkers and deceivers, especially those of the circumcision party. They must be silenced, since they are upsetting whole families by teaching for shameful gain what they ought not to teach.” Titus 1:10-11 Does God heal? The answer is an obvious ‘Yes’. But, do other religions also claim healing? There have been accounts of healing in Christian Science, New Thought Unity and other religions. Therefore when a pastor or preacher claims to be able to heal in the name of God he needs to be absolutely sure that he is depending on God alone and is not using any underhand methods or systems. For the Christian it is crucial that he test those who claim to heal in the name of God (1 John 4:1). However, in an age where many actually crave for ‘miracles’, testing any claim is the last thing in the mind of believers today. There are several instances where the claims of healing have turned out to be nothing more than hoaxes. Included in this is the case of healing regarding legs that were supposedly either too long or too short compared to the other. This is the Staged Leg lengthening Healing. The issue is that many WoF miracle services are all about showmanship and appearance. It is shockingly easy to fake healings, even to hold entire crowd under a kind of spell in which people appear to be ‘healed’ and yet no one is really cured. How is this accomplished? This is usually accomplished by making the audience see the problems as been solved in one way or the other through the statements been made by the ‘faith healers’. The set-up for the trick: The subject is made to sit on a chair and then stretches their legs forward toward the “healer” … lo and behold, one leg is shorter! The “healer” then does his/her ‘prayer’, grabs the legs and pulls.. and astonishingly, the “short” leg “grows out” to match the “normal” one! Proof of miracle! Drop something in the offering plate! These “healers” may simply command the leg to grow, usually followed by some other exclamation, like “SEE, IT’S HAPPENING RIGHT NOW! IT’S GROWING!” And suddenly everybody sees the “miracle” happen. In one account by a ‘faith healer’ the leg of the ‘patient’ that he commanded to grow ended up growing past the length of the other leg. At this stage he initially got confused then after regaining himself had to do another ‘prayer’ to get leg to shrink to match the other leg. What can one make of this? First, the leg gets longer than the normal one, and then it had to be readjusted to make it align with the normal one. Is it God at work here or something else? What one finds in all these is that compared to healings by Jesus Christ and the Apostles where healings were spontaneous and complete what we find in many cases are a far cry from what obtained then. A question to ask is: If these faith healers have real power from God, why does it take so much effort to get their “miracles” done? As pointed out earlier it can be as simple as being a trick. On the other hand it may be that some ‘other powers’ may be at work in these so called healings. Concerns As Christians, we believe that anyone who claims to be doing a thing in the name of Christ would be anything less than honest and ethical. Moreover, many Christians want to believe in what these healers do as evidence that God is still at work. And indeed, God is still a God of miracles. But where they turn out to be tricks or fake they bring the name of God into disrepute. Biblical faith is not blind or ridiculous. It is time for Christians to do as the Scripture says: “Test every spirit”. I REST MY CASE ON F11 3 Likes |
| Re: Word Of Faith - The Movement's Doctrine And Proponents by trustman: 5:35pm On Aug 17, 2014 |
[size=18pt]Are Nigerian Churches enmeshed in all these?[/size] I want to believe that only a few will deny the fact that most of what we have been talking about have taken over many WoF churches in Nigeria. The little leaven has affected the whole lump of dough. The emphasis on the individual and focus on materialism has led to a decline in spiritual commitment on the part of many believers. It is not an exaggeration to say that the spiritual life of Nigerian Christians does not match the numerical growth in the number of churches in recent times. As a result, the impact the church should have had on the society as compared to years gone by is very insignificant. The declining emphasis on what true spirituality is all about and the simultaneous crave for materialism in churches has added to this lack of impact. Thus, many may be in church today who are there not for the ‘bread of life’ but for their personal bread and butter. The Church where donations from any source, including known dupes and criminals, and where clergy with obvious involvement in sexual immorality are applauded by resounding ovation and praise is definitely far from that which the apostles instituted – recall the story of Ananias and sapphira. The turning to faith by works, the emphasis the clergy on the material, the lowering of the standard of holiness, the deliberate withholding of the truth from people by ministers, the utter disregard of the poor in many of our church congregations, and so on and so forth are things that should call for concern among discerning believers. The WoF doctrines taken in hook line and sinker by many of our churches are the main driving force responsible for this. If true spiritual resource is eroded where lies the strength of Christian faith? The Nigerian believers should meet head-on this onslaught against it if the church is to continue to remain relevant. There is a fundamental challenge to deal with these issues if the Nigerian church, which is already radically deviating from true Christianity or reinterpreting Christianity, will not end up losing its effectiveness and place in God’s scheme of things. 2 Likes |
| Re: Word Of Faith - The Movement's Doctrine And Proponents by Image123(m): 5:52pm On Aug 19, 2014 |
David Oyedepo Ministries International Inc says CAUTION!!! Please know that this ministry or the Bishop or Pst. Mrs. Faith Oyedepo will NEVER ask you to "sow seeds", or "give to an orphanage" or pay into an account. |
| Re: Word Of Faith - The Movement's Doctrine And Proponents by PastorKun(m): 6:38pm On Aug 19, 2014 |
Image123: David Oyedepo Ministries International Inc says Are you now their spokes man  We know that Oyedepo would never ask you to give to an orphanage but he constantly solicits for "seeds" and for money to be paid into his account.5 Likes |
| Re: Word Of Faith - The Movement's Doctrine And Proponents by Image123(m): 10:24am On Aug 20, 2014 |
PastorKun:No i'm not their spokesperson. https://facebook.com/davidoyedepoministries/posts/862849413757380 It is posted to bring AGAIN proof that this thread is largely exaggerated. |
| Re: Word Of Faith - The Movement's Doctrine And Proponents by Candour(m): 11:24am On Aug 20, 2014 |
Image123: What I find distasteful and outrightly childish about our mega churches and the flamboyant G.O's is their penchant for childish lies and falsehood. I had thought to dismiss your first post on this issue as borne out of ignorance but since you brought up an 'official denial' of the obvious, I think its right to put the records straight and tell you plainly that what you quoted from their Facebook page is a big lie. The bank I used to work for had a cash pickup arrangement with LFC between 2003 & 2006 and I was the officer in charge of this arrangement(didn't know I would later become a member myself). In addition to tithes and offerings, we routinely picked donations, seeds (yes, envelopes clearly marked 'seed faith') etc addressed to CUP (covenant university project) and Bishop David Oyedepo's account with my bank. Even after we stopped the cash pick up arrangement with them (due to their arrogance and very ungentlemanly behaviour), we routinely attended to folks who came to our banking halls to pay directly into these accounts still domiciled with us. The funny part is that people still paid into CUP aaccount uptil I left the bank and this was years after the take off of operations of the university. I became a member in 2010 and during WOFBI, the account number of Oyedepo was circulated by the pastors who lectured us on the need to sow into such fertile ground. In fact one particular pastor bragged that he always paid huge money into 'papa's' account religiously every month all in a bid to encourage us to do likewise. We were also encouraged to sow into any project the church was undertaking and we were even told how 'papa' sowed into Goshen city auditorium to the tune of 10,000 seats as he too 'didn't want to miss out of the blessing' coming thereby and any one of us who didn't sow then would be missing out. I was in LFC for almost 3years and I heard about seed sowing into the church almost every Sunday and reminders of sowing into the life of the 'prophet' regularly so I wonder why they feel compelled to lie about it. Pray God to help our mog become more truthful 7 Likes |
| Re: Word Of Faith - The Movement's Doctrine And Proponents by Image123(m): 12:37pm On Aug 20, 2014 |
Candour: that's interesting. |
| Re: Word Of Faith - The Movement's Doctrine And Proponents by Candour(m): 12:50pm On Aug 20, 2014 |
Image123: It is. I can assure you that if you pay a visit to any LFC branch this Sunday, you'll hear the minister in charge of offerings (most times, the branch pastor's wife) remind everyone of their vows, pledges, seeds, CUP partnership offering and other 'kingdom investments'. It will be very strange indeed if you fail to hear this particular announcement. |
| Re: Word Of Faith - The Movement's Doctrine And Proponents by PastorKun(m): 12:55pm On Aug 20, 2014 |
Image123: Story! As if you didn't know before. 2 Likes |
| Re: Word Of Faith - The Movement's Doctrine And Proponents by Image123(m): 1:24pm On Aug 20, 2014 |
Candour: Now, no one should get me wrong please. i'm not saying there is anything wrong or right in sowing seeds, or giving to an orphanage, or paying into an account.There is no sin in these though it could be abused, misused or manipulated. i think if Oyedepo or DOMI is making a clear and open statement, then anything contrary would be defaulting and members would do well to note what their leader is saying. |
| Re: Word Of Faith - The Movement's Doctrine And Proponents by DrummaBoy(m): 1:38pm On Aug 20, 2014 |
@Candour Walahi you don' waka sha. @Image123 I find your "interesting" comment above very interesting. In fact, rather than this thread being "largely exaggerated" as you claim, I believe the information it is providing is not only instructive for you but also leaving you uncomfortable. Please understand that of all the 20 points enumerated for discussion, none of them is overtly concerned with the practices in WOF churches. If practices are discussed on the thread, they must have been an aside, like Candour "revelation" above. If we are to discuss the atrocities going on in these churches, 100 pages of nl will not be sufficient. Its however not surprising that these things are happening in these churches; when doctrine is wrong practices will be warped too. When doctrines are demonic, practices will be outrightly satanic. I hope you are seeing more reasons to sit back, relax and learn from the thread. These are the end times. And in WOF we find the prophetic voice of scripture announcing end time apostasy fulfilled. There are indeed more INTERESTING facts yet to be revealed on thread. Stay tuned... 2 Likes |
| Re: Word Of Faith - The Movement's Doctrine And Proponents by Image123(m): 2:47pm On Aug 20, 2014 |
DrummaBoy: @Candour lol@ uncomfortable, you overrate yourself really. i've not being around generally anyway. |
| Re: Word Of Faith - The Movement's Doctrine And Proponents by Image123(m): 2:48pm On Aug 20, 2014 |
DrummaBoy: @Candour |
| Re: Word Of Faith - The Movement's Doctrine And Proponents by PastorKun(m): 3:06pm On Aug 20, 2014 |
Image123: Don't mind him, he doesn't realise that your love for filthy lucre is a life and death affair. 4 Likes |
| Re: Word Of Faith - The Movement's Doctrine And Proponents by Candour(m): 4:00pm On Aug 20, 2014 |
DrummaBoy: @Candour My bro, no be small thing o. The desperate search for 'solutions' to 'problems' can push a man to extremes and places he never imagined. 'A Christian contented is a Christian victorious' is the most important lesson I learnt through it all. 1 Like |
| Re: Word Of Faith - The Movement's Doctrine And Proponents by DrummaBoy(m): 4:16pm On Aug 20, 2014 |
Candour: Yesso! Very well said. 1 Like |
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