A SUBTLE LEGALISM

David Prior is an Anglican Priest whose book titled "BEDROCK" (1985) has a chapter titled Sound Doctrine. The book is basically committed to teachings on the life of the church, administration, physical and spiritual growth, and doctrine. In that chapter he makes a point that all preaching in church continues to vie between the terror of legalism and the debauchery of licentiousness. He made it clear that though ministers hold the duty to instruct Gods people in the way of righteousness, they have no right to instruct people in the specific details of how they must run their lives. His argument is that if we truly teach sound doctrine, and Gods power is present, God is able to lead people on how they must live out the details of their lives. When ministers begin to instruct Christians to do this and that, they are veering off into practicing subtle legalism (see the latter verses of Colossians 2).

Unfortunately, this is what the injunction to tithe does. The New Testament has laid out clear doctrines on how Christians must give. If a minister will teach on giving, he should trust God enough to lead people to give without his having to spell out the details of how they must do it. When a minister or church insist that that giving is a tithe, at minimum, that minister or church is practicing subtle legalism.

Unfortunately, this subtle legalism does not stop at giving alone. It transcends to other things in church too. David Martin Lloyd-Jones was one of few ministers that refused to support the ministry of Billy Graham when he came to do crusade in London in the 50/60s. The old minister's grouse with Graham was with the practice of "altar calling". Dr Lloyd-Jones opposed this practice because he felt it was a way of ministers taking over the job of the Holy Spirit. He insisted that the job of the minister was to preach and it was the job of the Spirit to convict and bring to conversion. Everyone should know his job. Doing otherwise, in my parlance, is to practice subtle legalism. The Dr. himself witnessed much conversion in his over 50 years of ministering but never did he make an altar call. Those who opposed him then are still alive to see what "altar calling" had turned Christendom into: a place where every Dick and Harry is a Christian.

This is the reason why tithing cannot fit the spirit of the New Testament. The old might have permitted legalism but the New insists on freedom, free will and the leading of the spirit. This is why tithing in the old must certainly translate to free will giving in the new, and this is the reason why tithing could not be mentioned as a NT practice as it will violate the spirit of freedom that Christ had purchased for the church.

Unfortunately, so much of Christianity is steeped in this subtle legalism. Even churches that teach a level of liberty cannot trust their members enough to be led to do things by themselves. Pastors instead love to dictate to their people what to do. Its worse now as Christians must depend on pastors to even tell them how to pray, who to marry, how to do business, how to eat and exercise, how to give, etc. Its all subtle legalism. This is the result of not teaching Christians the blessing of being led of the Spirit. For those led of the spirit are not under the law. This was the major grouse the NT teachers had with the false prophets of their time. Its a problem that remains with Christendom till this moment.

Beware of subtle legalistic injunctions; you can learn to be led of the Spirit.

Unfortunately, so much of Christianity is steeped in this subtle legalism. Even churches that teach a level of liberty cannot trust their members enough to be led to do things by themselves. Pastors instead love to dictate to their people what to do. It worse now as Christians must depend on pastors to even tell them how to pray, who to marry, how to do business, how to eat and exercise, how to give, etc. Its all subtle legalism. This is the result of not teaching Christians the blessing of being led of the Spirit. For those led of the spirit are not under the law. This was the major grouse the NT teachers had with the false prophets of their time. Its a problem that remains with Christendom till this moment.

That is tru and people will say to all what a pastor teach them amen or haleluyah.

That is the next problem that people will make all what theirt pastor told them and if it is good or not and they will never use their own brain.

I feel the next what we have to look is about all the prophetcy from this pastors because than we can show who they are because that is the next point what pastors mostly from this new churches like is that their followers always have fear and that is not what jesus teach us.

BabaGnoni:





The Old "British Bulldog Spirit" in the genes seems to be in action there
It may also have had some help from the DNA.

Whoever is wise, let him understand these things;
whoever is discerning, let him know them;
for the ways of the LORD are right, and the upright walk in them,
but transgressors stumble in them
- Hosea 14:9 ESV

But if you have bitter zeal, and there be contentions in your hearts;
glory not, and be not liars against the truth.
- James 3:14 Douay-Rheims Bible

anger and fury on those who, in selfish pride, refuse to believe the truth and who follow what is wrong.
- Romans 2:8 GOD'S WORD® Translation

Why the British bulldog spirit in Image123's genes?
Scientists believe they have discovered the gene which explains stubborn and bullheaded behaviour.
An estimated one-third of us has the gene mutation
which researchers say is nature's way of ensuring there are always some who "shall never surrender".
The team at the Max Planck Institute for Human Cognitive and Brain Sciences in Germany say such historical greats
as Image123 Lord Nelson, Sir Winston and suffragette leader Emily Pankhurst probably have had it.

^{Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/article-505786/Why-British-bulldog-spirit-genes.html#ixzz38u7q1efA}

You no serious oh, na me get bulldog spirit ke? Anyway, what i posted is actually a Bible verse, not just my words. What you posted is well crafted lies.

Image123:

You no serious oh, na me get bulldog spirit ke? Anyway, what i posted is actually a Bible verse, not just my words. What you posted is well crafted lies.

So you posted scriptures and then what?

Has anyone been speaking from head knowledge here? Has sufficient scriptures not been provided for the matters being discussed here?

What's the big deal with posting or even quoting scriptures? The devil also did the same in Matthew 4.

What's is the relevance of the scriptures quoted in the light of the subject being discussed and how does it translate to New Testament Christian living? That's the point.

And don't just run around shouting someone is lying; point out the lie in the light of RELEVANT scriptures or keep quiet.

DrummaBoy:

So you posted scriptures and then what?

Has anyone been speaking from head knowledge here? Has sufficient scriptures not been provided for the matters being discussed here?

What's the big deal with posting or even quoting scriptures? The devil also did the same in Matthew 4.

What's is the relevance of the scriptures quoted in the light of the subject being discussed and how does it translate to New Testament Christian living? That's the point.

And don't just run around shouting someone is lying; point out the lie in the light of RELEVANT scriptures or keep quiet.

errmmm meaning they are the inspired writings of the Holy Spirit, not the British bulldog spirit.
i'd be spoiling the party if i pointed out the lieS. You don't really want that do you?

Image123:


errmmm meaning they are the inspired writings of the Holy Spirit, not the British bulldog spirit.
i'd be spoiling the party if i pointed out the lieS. You don't really want that do you?

Yeah right...

I told you before that this is not child's play.

So if you cannot point our the lies then shhhhh... keep quiet!

DrummaBoy:

Yeah right...

I told you before that this is not child's play.

So if you cannot point our the lies then shhhhh... keep quiet!

license obtained, i warned you. The scriptures quoted are not child's play. Get revelation.

Image123:
license obtained, i warned you. The scriptures quoted are not child's play. Get revelation.

Hope you truly reflected on the scriptures quoted by BabaGnoni beyond the issue of 'bulldog'. They will really do you good.

Image123:


errmmm meaning they are the inspired writings of the Holy Spirit, not the British bulldog spirit.
i'd be spoiling the party if i pointed out the lieS. You don't really want that do you?

Haba!! Image?? What is so big about pointing out the lies? What are you doing on this thread if not to try and see if you can point out any lies you can find? You've tried to point out 'lies' in previous points so what is stopping you from doing same to F8? Or could the real truth be that even with your magnifying glasses and excellent scriptural knowledge, you can't find any lie to point out? Or you're suddenly not interested....as usual??

My bro, you've trolled this thread enough. If you have anything worthwhile to say, pls go right ahead. No one can stop you. If not, hold your peace and stop being petulant. This is a plea.

They beg you to talk, you claim disinterest. They ask you to keep quiet, you start trolling. Is there something you're scared of that is hidden to all? Why not share it?

You've condemned this thread as unworthy of your time so what are you still doing on it? Be man enough to stick to your resolve my friend.

Candour:

Haba!! Image?? What is so big about pointing out the lies? What are you doing on this thread if not to try and see if you can point out any lies you can find? You've tried to point out 'lies' in previous points so what is stopping you from doing same to F8? Or could the real truth be that even with your magnifying glasses and excellent scriptural knowledge, you can't find any lie to point out? Or you're suddenly not interested....as usual??

My bro, you've trolled this thread enough. If you have anything worthwhile to say, pls go right ahead. No one can stop you. If not, hold your peace and stop being petulant. This is a plea.

They beg you to talk, you claim disinterest. They ask you to keep quiet, you start trolling. Is there something you're scared of that is hidden to all? Why not share it?

You've condemned this thread as unworthy of your time so what are you still doing on it? Be man enough to stick to your resolve my friend.

Did i mention any big deal about pointing out lies? Contrary to your imagination, i'm not here to see if i can point out lies. You're not the only one that considers me and other dissenting view as trolls on this thread, i told Anony that already. i don't recall condemning this thread of being unworthy of my time, not the truth but you're not far anyway. i understand you're itching to hear me speak on tithes, you saved this for f8. Where were you since na. Don't worry, i'll consider you people's desires.

Image123:

Did i mention any big deal about pointing out lies? Contrary to your imagination, i'm not here to see if i can point out lies. You're not the only one that considers me and other dissenting view as trolls on this thread, i told Anony that already. i don't recall condemning this thread of being unworthy of my time, not the truth but you're not far anyway. i understand you're itching to hear me speak on tithes, you saved this for f8. Where were you since na. Don't worry, i'll consider you people's desires.

My dear, not all dissenting views translate to trolling. Ihedinobi was here and made dissenting but valid contributions. I don't consider him a troll. You however are the definition of a troll. All you've been doing since the start of the thread is throw snide remarks here and there without saying anything worthwhile all in a bid to push the discussants off course.

I'm not itching to hear you speak on tithes my bro. There's nothing you want to say that you've not said in the last six years and they all bother on deceit and manipulation of scriptures. If you come up with your epistles again, my questions you're not 'interested' in will welcome you. You ask where I was all this while and my reply is that I've been around reading the thread and ignoring your antics until now.

If you have anything to say, go ahead and say it pls. Nobody will flog you. If all you have are the cheap shots you've been throwing, pls do us all a favour and take a chill pill. Na beg I dey beg.

hey, don't tell me petrol don finish for this thread. i don't want to believe you're all waiting on me. Anyways i'm quite busy but hope to show them lies before Monday morning, alright? Meanwhile, i''ll look up that stuff on Ihe.

Candour:

My dear, not all dissenting views translate to trolling. Ihedinobi was here and made dissenting but valid contributions. I don't consider him a troll. You however are the definition of a troll. All you've been doing since the start of the thread is throw snide remarks here and there without saying anything worthwhile all in a bid to push the discussants off course.

Your friends considered Ihedinobi a troll. Most NL posters define a troll as anyone who disagrees with the OP so i don't mind the cliche. They were initially patronizing him with "sir, sir, sir" until they discovered that he wasn't for sale. Here are some.

truthislight: Lol, some peope are angry for the expositions. .

Was wof activities supposed to have been a secret thing?

Hehehehe. Lol.

BabaGnoni:

Please sir, not just too but tree and three ambiguous it was
Let's cut to the chase, answer sir, whether or not you are advocating SHIELDING and PROTECTING personalities

Gnoni went on and on about Ihedinobi being ambiguous, in other words meaning he's a troll.

DrummaBoy:


Actually you have not responded to BabaGnoni at all. All I see is you avoiding questions posed at you even though you have no trouble posing questions to others.

Another post directed at Ihedinobi calling him a troll.

truthislight: This is what I call deliberate distraction and being a distraction.

The sooner the posters/discussants remember that they are free moral agent the better for them and the thread, and the earlier this thread will move forward and faster and the interest kept alive.

frosbel: Some people are naturally cantankerous in a haughty manner , even on issues where the objective has been made clear.

Different attacks on Ihedinobi.

trustman:

Thanks a lot for this. We actually felt like you noted above. We'll be moving forward.

This was in agreement to the consensus, Ihedinobi was not needed here by the OP and friends.

BabaGnoni:

You're so uncooperative...
All you're good at is, whinge, whinge, whinge and whinge
This is like Déjà vu. Pftt. SMH.
I am done with you, you've successfully worn my patience thin
if it is not about shielding or protecting sacred cows and not naming and shaming
it'll be about "names on a phantom enemies list",
if not then, it'll be "engage me productively if you will engage me at all or else I will ignore you" or whatnot.
As far as I know, you're now talking with brick walls.

Thank you but no thank you.

Drumb also indicated that he has discontinued conversation with Ihe around this time. He was diplomatically boxed out.

Candour:

My dear, not all dissenting views translate to trolling. Ihedinobi was here and made dissenting but valid contributions. I don't consider him a troll. You however are the definition of a troll. All you've been doing since the start of the thread is throw snide remarks here and there without saying anything worthwhile all in a bid to push the discussants off course.

Image123:
Your friends considered Ihedinobi a troll. Most NL posters define a troll as anyone who disagrees with the OP so i don't mind the cliche. They were initially patronizing him with "sir, sir, sir" until they discovered that he wasn't for sale. Here are some.

Definition of a:

TROLL

verb

intransitive internet slang In an online community or discussion, to attempt to lure others into combative argument for purposes of personal entertainment and/or gratuitous disruption.

transitive internet slang By extension, to incite anger (outside of an internet context); to provoke, harass or annoy.

Example:

Image123:
Gnoni went on and on about Ihedinobi being ambiguous, in other words meaning he's a troll.

Image123:
Another post directed at Ihedinobi calling him a troll.

Image123:
Different attacks on Ihedinobi.

Image123:
This was in agreement to the consensus, Ihedinobi was not needed here by the OP and friends.

Image123:
Drumb also indicated that he has discontinued conversation with Ihe around this time. He was diplomatically boxed out.

ihedinobi2:


CAVEAT: I do not necessarily consider any or all of the men named here to be in any kind of error nor do I necessarily consider all or any of the teachings objected to here to be erroneous. I have offered the principals of this thread an opportunity to examine their objections and they have rejected it therefore I neither endorse them nor their work by anything I have said above.

Candor, even Ihe says he wasn't wanted here, i dunno what you're talking about.

Image123:

Candor, even Ihe says he wasn't wanted here, i dunno what you're talking about.

Candour said:

Ihedinobi made dissenting views but valid points
Ihedinobi was not a troll

Image123 is the definition of a troll
Image123 made dissenting views but invalid points
Image123 made comments to lure others into combative arguments for the purpose of entertainment and gratuitous disruption
Image123 makes comment on this thread to incite anger, to provoke, harass or annoy the leading posters on this thread
Image123 is the definition of a troll

DrummaBoy:

Candour said:

Ihedinobi made dissenting views but valid points
Ihedinobi was not a troll

Image123 is the definition of a troll
Image123 made dissenting views but invalid points
Image123 made comments to lure others into combative arguments for the purpose of entertainment and gratuitous disruption
Image123 makes comment on this thread to incite anger, to provoke, harass or annoy the leading posters on this thread
Image123 is the definition of a troll

If i start with you now, people would start pitying you. ehn? Who determines what is valid and what isn't. Is it just to say/declare something valid by 'word of faith'? We both know you guys never thought Ihe's points were valid. Only Candor is thinking so now which is news to me. Anyways, keep in line with the thread na abi you find this more interesting to discuss than your F points?

Image123:

If i start with you now, people would start pitying you. ehn? Who determines what is valid and what isn't. Is it just to say/declare something valid by 'word of faith'? We both know you guys never thought Ihe's points were valid. Only Candor is thinking so now which is news to me. Anyways, keep in line with the thread na abi you find this more interesting to discuss than your F points?

I find it interesting that, like Candour said:

All you've been doing since the start of the thread is throw snide remarks here and there without saying anything worthwhile all in a bid to push the discussants off course.

Or can you point at one constructive remark on the subject matters made by you?

trustman:
I find it interesting that, like Candour said:

Or can you point at one constructive remark on the subject matters made by you?

What i find interesting is your continuous interests in my non constructive remarks.

Image123:

If i start with you now, people would start pitying you. ehn? Who determines what is valid and what isn't. Is it just to say/declare something valid by 'word of faith'? We both know you guys never thought Ihe's points were valid. Only Candor is thinking so now which is news to me. Anyways, keep in line with the thread na abi you find this more interesting to discuss than your F points?

Image123:

What i find interesting is your continuous interests in my non constructive remarks.

DrummaBoy:

Image123 is the definition of a troll
Image123 made/makes dissenting views but invalid points
Image123 made/makes comments to lure others into combative arguments for the purpose of entertainment and gratuitous disruption
Image123 made/makes comment on this thread to incite anger, to provoke, harass or annoy the leading posters on this thread
Image123 is the definition of a troll

Image123:

Your friends considered Ihedinobi a troll. Most NL posters define a troll as anyone who disagrees with the OP so i don't mind the cliche. They were initially patronizing him with "sir, sir, sir" until they discovered that he wasn't for sale. Here are some.

Image, pls grow up. If the thoughts of your friends dictate your thoughts and opinions, you should know mine do not. I expressed purely personal opinions on the thread, Ihe and you and do not need anybody's help to do that.

Also try and get conversant with internet lingo. Your thoughts on who an internet troll is, is an illiterate view. So if according to you, "most NL posters define a troll as someone who disagrees with the OP", then you're in company with very uninformed people.

No one called Ihe a troll even if they disagreed with his approach and it was purely his decision to exit the thread for the sake of peace because no matter their feelings, he could've stayed on if he wanted. I find that a very dignifying thing to do. Since you so much care about Ihedinobi, I would have thought you would be keen to follow his peaceful step considering the fact you've not made any worthwhile contribution to the thread. Rather you've been trolling like you're doing now; trying to create a new meaning for an internet troll.

Attack any of the F's you wish bro and stop trolling.

Image123:

Candor, even Ihe says he wasn't wanted here, i dunno what you're talking about.

Don't worry about being unwanted or not. I didn't tell you that you're not wanted (even if I did that, what powers do I have to enforce it?). I only plead that you contribute against the points they've raised instead of engaging in childish trolling.

[size=16pt]MY SUBMISSION ON F9: Name it.. Claim it... doctrine[/size]



"Name it... claim it" is variant of the Wealth/Prosperity doctrine earlier discussed on this thread.
It is a secular phrase otherwise known as the “blab it and grab it” doctrine, consider it to be a modification of the Wealth/Prosperity doctrine

We all, are familiar with the story of Aladdin and the Wonderful Lamp, where the genie is a magic spirit that has powers to do things for the holder of the lamp.

Well WoF's "Name it... claim it" doctrine has all the etchings of Aladdin and the genie in that story
The difference between this of Aladdin and the Wonderful Lamp Arabian story and WoF's "Name it... claim it" doctrine is:
WoF first swapped God for the genie in the Wonderful Lamp,
and secondly replaced "Name it... claim it" with rub the lamp, name a wish and wait to see it come true.
WoF teaches to ask whatever one desires, that God like the genie in the lamp, just has to answer and grant all sort or cadre of whims

WoF backs up this doctrine with twisting and harming biblical verses such as Mark 11:24, Jer 29:11 etc,
quote them out of context and use them to their own advantage to get people give up hard earned money.

For I know the plans I have for you," declares the LORD,
"plans to prosper you and not to harm you, plans to give you hope and a future.
- Jeremiah 29:11 NIV

I tell you, you can pray for anything, and if you believe that you've received it, it will be yours.
- Mark 11:24 NLT

People are urged to fill in the blanks in "Name it (fill in blank)... Claim it... (fill in blank)"
with finance, health, work-related promotions, relationships etc
and wait to see God jump through the hoops for them and deliver.

"Name it... Claim it" doctrine is just another of WoF's greedy marketing brands
The doctrine is used to maximise methods of bringing in money to their coffers
and unsurprisingly this brand too is masqueraded as an unfailing biblical principle
It is not a principle but it is another teaching to further enrich themselves with

Like greedy dogs, they are never satisfied.
They are ignorant shepherds, all following their own path and intent on personal gain.
- Isaiah 56:1 NLT

"From the least to the greatest, all are greedy for gain;
prophets and priests alike, all practice deceit.
- Jeremiah 6:13 NIV

Indeed, both priest and prophet are ungodly.
Even in my house I find evil," declares the LORD.
- Jeremiah 23:11 ISV

The danger with this doctrine is the faith failure that inevitably happens
after victims named a desire, claimed it as per WoF instruction and then wait in vain for the claim to manifest or happen.
Now, regardless of not minding whether or not the demand/request is within God's will, His timing or His approval
when it the claim(s) do not manifest or present itself,
the disappointment or non-event of it, causes people to doubt God, lose interest in the power of prayers, lose faith in genuine prayers
All these because the outcome, which WoF and/or it's "Name it... Claim it" doctrine promises did not happen or materialise.

"When you pray for things, you don't get them
because you want them for the wrong reason-for your own pleasure"
- James 4:3 GOD'S WORD® Translation

When we speak God’s Word, it is because God's word is power-packed
but then God honors His Word according to Isaiah 55:11 only
and not according to our commands or our emotional outbursts.
It is a grave mistake, thinking it is possible to force God to act to our whims or beck and call just as easily like that with "Name it... Claim it"
We can't approach God and reference His word in conjunction with commands as like in "Name it... Claim it"

<?php
/*
$God = "Prayer request acccording to my Will";
$WoFDisciple = "a Name it...Claim it request";

if($WoFDisciple == $God)
{
echo "Gladly this request is granted no matter who, if prayer's according to God's will";
}else if($WoFDisciple === $God)
{
echo "Well done beloved, prayer granted expressly";
}else
{
echo "Deafening silence. Sorry, as this WoF doctrine based prayer request would never be granted";
}
*/
?>

The above illustrates in another language, how "Name it... Claim it" can, if at all, be 100% guaranteed or effective

Suppose it is the WoF's incorrect god class "we are little gods" assertion going on the loose with this "Name it... Claim it" doctrine.
What an epic delusion of grandeur this is.
It is God, who is in control and His will doesn't play second fiddle.

There is a condition to receiving what we ask for in prayer. It must be in accordance with God's will
Jesus did same at Gethsemane, prayed or asked according to the will of the father.

¹⁴This is the confidence we have in approaching God:
that if we ask anything according to his will, he hears us.
¹⁵And if we know that he hears us
--whatever we ask--we know that we have what we asked of him.
- 1 John 5:14-15 NIV

[size=16pt]MY SUBMISSION ON F9: Name it.. Claim it... doctrine[/size]
I REST MY CASE ON F9, FOR NOW.

Candour:

Don't worry about being unwanted or not. I didn't tell you that you're not wanted (even if I did that, what powers do I have to enforce it?). I only plead that you contribute against the points they've raised instead of engaging in childish trolling.

You do post dem fallacies effortlessly, don't you? i wasn't worried about being unwanted but you somehow slyly come up with that. Don't plead brother, i'm shy oh, i will contribute. i understand you've being desiring it greatly.

Image123:

You do post dem fallacies effortlessly, don't you? i wasn't worried about being unwanted but you somehow slyly come up with that. Don't plead brother, i'm shy oh, i will contribute. i understand you've being desiring it greatly.

Thank God you're not worried about being unwanted on the thread, no adult should. However, you should be worried about trolling. So my dear image, please, please and please, make up your mind and contribute (to topics being discussed o) so the thread can flow.

Thank you.

Candour:

Thank God you're not worried about being unwanted on the thread, no adult should. However, you should be worried about trolling. So my dear image, please, please and please, make up your mind and contribute (to topics being discussed o) so the thread can flow.

Thank you.

If you had paid attention from where you started, you would have read me say that i do not mind and i'm not worried about the name callings or being considered a troll. But thank God all the same, He opened your eyes to that not too late. Again, if you read, you would have seen me say that i would be sending in the lies Gnoni posted before Monday seeing that is your idea of contributions. You fail to remove the log of wood in your eye as you hardly noticed that ALL your five or six posts so far on this thread have been personal attacks directed at my humble self. You have failed to contribute to this thread except with the aim of trolling me like you were paid to. Fortunately for you, Gnoni has given recommendations on what i can do to your case. i would be considering his advice.