Empiree:
https://www.facebook.com/becausefacts/videos/224507124962668/

I watched the documentary some months back, majority of them became Muslims in prison. Some even learn arabic and send letters to brothers outside to help them buy books. Truly amazing!

Peace.

Empiree, this is for you. Since you continue brawling with me on the validity of Hadith. And you feel offended by my critique of your co-religionists.

What do you think of the YouTuber Convert2Islam's apostasy?

I know you know him on a personal level, you used to cite him a lot in the past.

usermane:
Peace.

Empiree, this is for you. Since you continue brawling with me on the validity of Hadith. And you feel offended by my critique of your co-religionists.

What do you think of the YouTuber Convert2Islam's apostasy?

I know you know him on a personal level, you used to cite him a lot in the past.

Is apostasy new?. Absolutely not. There are knowledgeable people who left islam historically and in contemporary world. Heaven didnt fall. Islam remains the same. Imagine Convert2Islam left islam over silly things and the worst he could do was to revert to the same religion he knows crystal clear is on dolal?. How could someone embrace a religion which clearly embraces trinity or sonship of God. Such fellow needs deliverance. Listen, he is not important. An Egyptian muazzin converted to christian because of a woman. Yet, islam is still standing. I dont need to be told there are corruptions in some of our literature. To say otherwise is not being sincere. However, corruption or not, i will never take guidance from someone who mocks islamic text even if such person is right. Criticism of corrupted text must be done academically by sane people like Sheikh Imran Hosein did, not folks who have motives.

As you can see, if you still follow Convert2Islam', he turns it to mockery which is the reason i unfollowed him last week. I did not do that just bcus he left islam. I did bcus he has motives. What he is doing is not new. Ali Sina did worst and islam is still here. Hamas's son who converted to christianity and came to the West said back in 2006 said "islam would vanish in 10 years". Ten years ago was 2016. Islam is still here while he is vanished from spotlight because they have used him to achieve whatever they wanted and they dumped him. So what's new?

Peace.

Empiree, you say you're aware of these corruption but from your comments on my thread on Qur'an alone, you don't seem to. And this is the point I'm driving with Convert2Islam. This young man is prime example that most people even the most devoted Muslims can be completely ignorant of the corruption.

Recall his earlier video after apostasy? Where he addresses the Hadith sanctioning sex with female captives? The only people who know these things are of course the scholars.

The scholars rarely touch such Hadith. When they do, they do not criticize it, they try to interpret it differently from how the classical jurists understood them. They deny that ISIS militant sex enslavement of Yazidi women have nothing to do with Islam.

This is why people like DontConvert2Islam continue in ignorance of the corruption. And when they find the truth, they feel betrayed.

Transparency, there need to be more of it in the traditional Muslim discourse.

Peace.

Empiree:
Hamas's son who converted to christianity and came to the West said back in 2006 said "islam would vanish in 10 years". Ten years ago was 2016. Islam is still here while he is vanished from spotlight because they have used him to achieve whatever they wanted and they dumped him. So what's new?

Did you read the book, "Son of Hamas"?

usermane:


Recall his earlier video after apostasy? Where he addresses the Hadith sanctioning sex with female captives? The only people who know these things are of course the scholars.

The scholars rarely touch such Hadith. When they do, they do not criticize it, they try to interpret it differently from how the classical jurists understood them. They deny that ISIS militant sex enslavement of Yazidi women have nothing to do with Islam.

This is why people like DontConvert2Islam continue in ignorance of the corruption. And when they find the truth, they feel betrayed.

Transparency, there need to be more of it in the traditional Muslim discourse.

Peace.

It is still his fault. First all, he wasn't interested in whatever Muslims had to say when they tried to counter his assertions on the Hadith.

Second, myself know the hadith appears complicated to me at at least. The confusion stem from translation and interpretation of the Arabic text in the Hadith. Everyone interpreted it to suit themselves. Alhusunnah in Nigeria gave their explanatiom. Sheikh Habib also gave his, and they both have different views.


Third, what I said to him back then was this is no excuse for living Islam. All he had to do was to weigh it with Quran standards. He did actually but then, because he already made up his mind, he interpreted the Ayah of Quran to suit the Hadith. He simply mixed it and got himself in deep doodoo.

Fourth, I asked him back then if he was so concerned about this particular topic, remember he dwelled in it for long?. Why then he went back to Christianity which has similar or worse case scenario?. There are lots of sexual abuses and rape sanctions in the religion he's now but he ignored. The same book that the British used to enslave the world.

Since hadith is not guaranteed protection by Allah, why should he feel betrayed over peanuts?. It means he was on a mission. You could see he went to masjid pretending to be Muslim but he already left at that time without making it public and mocked adhan. He released the video much more later.

I skied again, why should he feel betrayed?. I read stuff in the aHadith that I'm not comfortable with. What I ask myself "did nabi(saw) actually say or do this?. Before I openly criticize the Hadith I look around for possible tafsir and or tawil. If there is no supporting literature and no data to explain further, I ignore such Hadith even if main stream claim it is valid.

Example of such is statement attributed to nabi (saw) that he would burn or he feels like burning men who don't pray at masjid after adhan is called. Explaination given by some scholars is ridiculous. So I consider such to be fabricated.

But a hadith that appear violent but it is restricted to war zone, I only understand such Hadith in that restricted manner. This doesn't neccessarily make it fabricated bcuz rule of engagement may be altered at some point. Example of that was Obama. If you live many yrs from now, watch media quote his statement on is!s that appears to make him a violent president against Islam and muslims. Meanwhile he was talking about specific people.

So don'tconver2islam is a joke. His rants won't stop Islam and muslims in the least. He betrayed himself. Allah tested him and he failed woefully. He had no iklas to begin with. He forgot that history may be altered (which he is focusing on) while the focus message of Islam is La ilaha ila Allahu. He forgot that.

Apart from that common sense should tell him that no religion sanctions rape or even illegal sexual intercourse. Anyways, let's just say he's still on spiritual transition. You never know he may wake up tomorrow and denounce Christianity again and claim Buddhism is the truth. So this is not new.

AlBaqir:


Did you read the book, "Son of Hamas"?

not at all. I watched his rants on ABC news from 2005-2007

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zEYd5uHH7W8

Empiree:
It is still his fault. First all, he wasn't interested in whatever Muslims had to say when they tried to counter his assertions on the Hadith.

Second, myself know the hadith appears complicated to me at at least. The confusion stem from translation and interpretation of the Arabic text in the Hadith. Everyone interpreted it to suit themselves. Alhusunnah in Nigeria gave their explanatiom. Sheikh Habib also gave his, and they both have different views.


Third, what I said to him back then was this is no excuse for living Islam. All he had to do was to weigh it with Quran standards. He did actually but then, because he already made up his mind, he interpreted the Ayah of Quran to suit the Hadith. He simply mixed it and got himself in deep doodoo.

Fourth, I asked him back then if he was so concerned about this particular topic, remember he dwelled in it for long?. Why then he went back to Christianity which has similar or worse case scenario?. There are lots of sexual abuses and rape sanctions in the religion he's now but he ignored. The same book that the British used to enslave the world.

Since hadith is not guaranteed protection by Allah, why should he feel betrayed over peanuts?. It means he was on a mission. You could see he went to masjid pretending to be Muslim but he already left at that time without making it public and mocked adhan. He released the video much more later.

I skied again, why should he feel betrayed?. I read stuff in the aHadith that I'm not comfortable with. What I ask myself "did nabi(saw) actually say or do this?. Before I openly criticize the Hadith I look around for possible tafsir and or tawil. If there is no supporting literature and no data to explain further, I ignore such Hadith even if main stream claim it is valid.

Example of such is statement attributed to nabi (saw) that he would burn or he feels like burning men who don't pray at masjid after adhan is called. Explaination given by some scholars is ridiculous. So I consider such to be fabricated.

But a hadith that appear violent but it is restricted to war zone, I only understand such Hadith in that restricted manner. This doesn't neccessarily make it fabricated bcuz rule of engagement may be altered at some point. Example of that was Obama. If you live many yrs from now, watch media quote his statement on is!s that appears to make him a violent president against Islam and muslims. Meanwhile he was talking about specific people.

So don'tconver2islam is a joke. His rants won't stop Islam and muslims in the least. He betrayed himself. Allah tested him and he failed woefully. He had no iklas to begin with. He forgot that history may be altered (which he is focusing on) while the focus message of Islam is La ilaha ila Allahu. He forgot that.

Apart from that common sense should tell him that no religion sanctions rape or even illegal sexual intercourse. Anyways, let's just say he's still on spiritual transition. You never know he may wake up tomorrow and denounce Christianity again and claim Buddhism is the truth. So this is not new.

Peace.

I'm not saying he is important. I was trying to use his case to make a point, that how come he didn't know about such hadith for a very long time while preaching Islam? Anyway, let's leave it at that.

From what I can tell, you do not share his understanding of the hadith. Man, you know. For a traditionalist, you sure seem to be doing your own ijtihad - reinterpreting hadith differently from the consensus(Ijma).

Let me explain.
In view of the clergymen, there is Qur'an, there is hadith and there is Ijma. For the traditional scholars;
- the Qur'an must be understood from the view of ancient exegetes like Ibn Kathir. You hold this view as well.
- the Hadith also interprets, interpolate and extrapolates the Qur'an for practical purposes.
- then Ijma is the scholarly consensus, it is the in-depth elaboration of Qur'an and Hadith for practical purposes.

I believe you agree with all of the above.

If we look at Ijma, we will find that the interpretation of the hadith on sex with female captives differ widely from what you understand. To be more direct, find out the position of the four traditional sunni schools of jurisprudence on this issue.

It seem like sometimes you deviate from Ijma. You're not alone in this, tbaba234 does it as well, many traditionalists today do it. But there are many traditionalists who will oppose you for this. You will meet strict traditionalists who insist on implementing verses and hadith according to Ijma, not Ijma of contemporary scholars like Yasir Qadhir.... etc, but earliest jurists of Hanafi, Maliki, Hanbali or Shafi schools of jurisprudence.

In that case, how will you deal with such fundamentalists? You think you can convince them to overlook the consensus of the ancient jurists in certain cases? When in fact you follow the consensus in other cases?

usermane:


Peace.

I'm not saying he is important. I was trying to use his case to make a point, that how come he didn't know about such hadith for a very long time while preaching Islam? Anyway, let's leave it at that.

just because he was muslim for long doesn't mean he knew everything. We grew in knowledge everyday.

usermane:



From what I can tell, you do not share his understanding of the hadith. Man, you know. For a traditionalist, you sure seem to be doing your own ijtihad - reinterpreting hadith differently from the consensus(Ijma).

Islam is not static except those practices that are stipulated or restricted

usermane:




Let me explain.
In view of the clergymen, there is Qur'an, there is hadith and there is Ijma. For the traditional scholars;
- the Qur'an must be understood from the view of ancient exegetes like Ibn Kathir. You hold this view as well.
- the Hadith also interprets, interpolate and extrapolates the Qur'an for practical purposes.
- then Ijma is the scholarly consensus, it is the in-depth elaboration of Qur'an and Hadith for practical purposes.

I believe you agree with all of the above.

Yes... But mufasireen were human. Their judgement, explaination etc were mostly based on their time. It is therefore not static. We should deduce from their work that which is in perfect harmony with the kitab. We can't just throw their work on the garbage. They put things into perspective for us.

usermane:



Let me explain.
In view of the clergymen, there is Qur'an, there is hadith and there is Ijma. For the traditional scholars;
- the Qur'an must be understood from the view of ancient exegetes like Ibn Kathir. You hold this view as well.
- the Hadith also interprets, interpolate and extrapolates the Qur'an for practical purposes.
- then Ijma is the scholarly consensus, it is the in-depth elaboration of Qur'an and Hadith for practical purposes.

I believe you agree with all of the above.

If we look at Ijma, we will find that the interpretation of the hadith on sex with female captives differ widely from what you understand. To be more direct, find out the position of the four traditional sunni schools of jurisprudence on this issue.

It seem like sometimes you deviate from Ijma. You're not alone in this, tbaba234 does it as well, many traditionalists today do it. But there are many traditionalists who will oppose you for this. You will meet strict traditionalists who insist on implementing verses and hadith according to Ijma, not Ijma of contemporary scholars like Yasir Qadhir.... etc, but earliest jurists of Hanafi, Maliki, Hanbali or Shafi schools of jurisprudence.

In that case, how will you deal with such fundamentalists? You think you can convince them to overlook the consensus of the ancient jurists in certain cases? When in fact you follow the consensus in other cases?

well, the Imams, as i said before did near perfect job by putting things together. If they were alive today, they would revisit some of their figh. That doesn't mean they are wrong. This is why I said many times that Islam evolves. There are new developments. Islam is not static. Example of this is land of muslims and land of kufar. That muslims can not live in land of kufar except with conditions.

There is no such thing in our time bcus the lands of kufar themselves there are indigenous muslims, either by birth or by conversation. But this doesn't mean Aimmah were wrong. They did what they had to do based on their time.

Their ijma isn't binding 100%. We can only deduce from their text. Ijtihad is based on TIME.

As for those who hold this idea of holdng on to ijma of the past 100% without room for ijtihad or new reasoning, simply closed the door on ijtihad. This is rigidity and it is unnecessary. Islam is for the past, present and future. Therefore, there will always be new things. In that case ijtihad is necessary without putting on boxing gloves at each other.

Therefore "don'tconver2islam" betrayed himself. It really means he had no faith. True faith begins after been tested. He was tested and he failed.

Empiree, the problem the traditional Muslim community faces is this. There is yet to be an official update on the Ijma since about the 10th century. If you collect the books of ijma today, they are basically the translation of ancient work, no correction, no revision. Without resorting to Ijma, it is difficult for a critic to decide what constitute traditional Islam, how is this or that hadith interpreted.

This is why sometimes I criticize an hadith, and you come up with; "Oops, that is not the meaning, you're taking the hadith in isolation". Well, that's the meaning according to Ijma.

usermane:
Empiree, the problem the traditional Muslim community faces is this. There is yet to be an official update on the Ijma since about the 10th century. If you collect the books of ijma today, they are basically the translation of ancient work, no correction, no revision. Without resorting to Ijma, it is difficult for a critic to decide what constitute traditional Islam, how is this or that hadith interpreted.

This is why sometimes I criticize an hadith, and you come up with; "Oops, that is not the meaning, you're taking the hadith in isolation". Well, that's the meaning according to Ijma.

First, it is impossible due to too many iqtilaf today. I mean iqtilaf with boxing gloves. Back then their had iqtilaf peacefully without calling one another names.

Also, it is impossible to get rid of old books. They are still relevant because at some point, they are needed for logical deductions. It is like bible. The moment a sect wants to fix something another sect come up with their own version of the Bible.

Empiree:
First, it is impossible due to too many iqtilaf today. I mean iqtilaf with boxing gloves. Back then their had iqtilaf peacefully without calling one another names.

Also, it is impossible to get rid of old books. They are still relevant because at some point, they are needed for logical deductions. It is like bible. The moment a sect wants to fix something another sect come up with their own version of the Bible.

There was iktilaf with boxing gloves back in the days. There were physical clashes between students of one imam and students of another imam. Even the imams themselves were threatened. The Hanbali students have been reported to have attacked Al Tabari, destroyed his house, where he died under the rubble.
This can be found in works of even Muslim historians.

I didnt say get rid of old books. I say why haven't they been update? I mean, you understand that Islam has to evolve, right?

The Imams themselves wrote very little upon death. Their students and students of their student kept updating the original work. This is evolution, but this was arrested in 10-11th century.

Next, there were way more than 4 schools of jurisprudence. Iktilaf may be the reason why only 4 schools were legalized later on. But why did these for schools stop updating their work?
There is a huge reason for this, it's not iktilaf.

Empiree:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zEYd5uHH7W8

This is serious. I really really wish to learn more about Yoruba mythology, cultures and rituals.

AlBaqir:


This is serious. I really really wish to learn more about Yoruba mythology, cultures and rituals.

The telephone invention part really got me like Really good to know that. I research it and found it to be true. Not all yoruba mythology involved shirk but modern ones are corrupt.

usermane:


There was iktilaf with boxing gloves back in the days. There were physical clashes between students of one imam and students of another imam. Even the imams themselves were threatened. The Hanbali students have been reported to have attacked Al Tabari, destroyed his house, where he died under the rubble.
This can be found in works of even Muslim historians.

Well, you can say that again.

[quote]I didnt say get rid of old books. I say why haven't they been update?

Well, it is a matter of ijma. For as long as their differences outweigh their similarity it will take donkey years. Plus outside influences play major role. For instance, Western world are tampering with UAE and Saudi literatures.

I mean, you understand that Islam has to evolve, right?

You happy bcus i said that?. Let me clarify so that we know where we stand. There are practices ordained by Allah and they are static till Qiyamah. No matter how much our world develops, they can not be interpolated. Examples of this are: Five daily obligatory salat and their sunnah sunnah. Ramadan in its right time. Zakat and Hajj in their right time. They can not change. Meaning we can not fix them like Xmas, Hanukkah, Yum kimpul etc are fixed.


Also hudud which refers to punishments which under Islamic law (shariah) are mandated and fixed by God can not change regardless of how much the world develops. Example of hadd for theft is cutting hand or finger whatever it is. Lashes for adultery and fornication etc. These will not change.

On the other hand punishment that are not prescribed directly by Allah may evolves over time. For example, i dont think i have seen punishment for drinking alcohol, Islamic govt may decide flogging or jail. This is also consider Sharia law but under different category. This is a matter of figh or jurisprudence. Another example is homosexual. There is no punishment prescribed in the Quran but it condemns it. For the sake of sanity in muslim community, authority has the right to legislate punishment regardless of what international trash has to say. Another example is apostasy. There is no direct hadd in the Quran but authority has the right to enact law to punish offenders. Punishment for this varies from country to another. So this aspect evolves. Some may also look into hadith to seek to apply whatever is there. It may no be binding but it is also consider Sharia Law. So now you understand what i meant by Islam evolves. It doesn't mean "I do whatever i want, this is 21st century"

The Imams themselves wrote very little upon death. Their students and students of their student kept updating the original work. This is evolution, but this was arrested in 10-11th century.

You can say that again

Next, there were way more than 4 schools of jurisprudence. Iktilaf may be the reason why only 4 schools were legalized later on. But why did these for schools stop updating their work? There is a huge reason for this, it's not iktilaf.

Perhaps bcus they are close to kitab and sunnah than the former, and well placed things in perspective. You definitely don't expect them to have updated their original work since their work was in harmony with what goes on in their time. Listen, God's Law in the Supreme Law and Supreme Authority.

Empiree:
Well, you can say that again.

Well, the ball is in your court. I was only pointing out that your reasoning for the death of ijtihad is wrong.

Well, it is a matter of ijma. For as long as their differences outweigh their similarity it will take donkey years. Plus outside influences play major role. For instance, Western world are tampering with UAE and Saudi literatures.

This doesn't answer the question. Why did the update stop permanently in the first place. You mean for over 10 centuries, they had no update to make? And What Saudi literature and UAE literature? The Ijma is not not region specific.

You happy bcus i said that?

Happy!? Man, sometimes ago, the Saudi Prince or King spoke of vetting sahih hadith. You really think such announcements are enough to make my day? I am not living in a sharia state, I'm not bound by your laws & traditions, evolving them is of no benefit to me in any kind. The only reason I discuss them is because I understand they deviate from God's teachings and they harm minorities and innocent people in God's name.

Perhaps bcus they are close to kitab and sunnah than the former, and well placed things in perspective. You definitely don't expect them to have updated their original work since their work was in harmony with what goes on in their time. Listen, God's Law in the Supreme Law and Supreme Authority.

And their work is suddenly only in disharmony with our times? Do you realize there's been call for Ijtihad since the 18th century in the Muslim world.

You don't seem to read Muslim history from diverse sources. I will at this point finally state the reason why ijtihad is dead and why the only canon interpretation of traditional Islam is the Ijma of Malki, Hanbali, Hanafi, Shafi'i and Ja'fari schools of jurisprudence.

If you still remember, there are hadith stating;
- the best generations are the Prophet's, and the following two generations after him.
- that the Muslim ummah will never agree on something wrong.
- that a time will be reached where Muslims will be ignorant because all the knowledgeable scholars will have passed away.

Considering these hadith at a point in history, the scholars decide, "You know what, we've explained everything. We've done all the work for future Muslims. If they stick with this, they'll never go astray. They will not be qualified enough to do Ijtihad any better than we've done." This is how ijitihad ended.

Today, it is completely frowned upon for even Muslim scholar to arrive at a different conclusion from the Ijma. If today, as a Muslim, you are interpreting an hadith or verse differently from the Ijma interpretation, you are totally committing an offense.

For you as a lay man in traditional Islamic law, you can only stick with the ijma. You can't differ from them.

usermane:


Well, the ball is in your court. I was only pointing out that your reasoning for the death of ijtihad is wrong.



This doesn't answer the question. Why did the update stop permanently in the first place. You mean for over 10 centuries, they had no update to make? And What Saudi literature and UAE literature? The Ijma is not not region specific.



Happy!? Man, sometimes ago, the Saudi Prince or King spoke of vetting sahih hadith. You really think such announcements are enough to make my day? I am not living in a sharia state, I'm not bound by your laws & traditions, evolving them is of no benefit to me in any kind. The only reason I discuss them is because I understand they deviate from God's teachings and they harm minorities and innocent people in God's name.



And their work is suddenly only in disharmony with our times? Do you realize there's been call for Ijtihad since the 18th century in the Muslim world.

You don't seem to read Muslim history from diverse sources. I will at this point finally state the reason why ijtihad is dead and why the only canon interpretation of traditional Islam is the Ijma of Malki, Hanbali, Hanafi, Shafi'i and Ja'fari schools of jurisprudence.

If you still remember, there are hadith stating;
- the best generations are the Prophet's, and the following two generations after him.
- that the Muslim ummah will never agree on something wrong.
- that a time will be reached where Muslims will be ignorant because all the knowledgeable scholars will have passed away.

Considering these hadith at a point in history, the scholars decide, "You know what, we've explained everything. We've done all the work for future Muslims. If they stick with this, they'll never go astray. They will not be qualified enough to do Ijtihad any better than we've done." This is how ijitihad ended.

Today, it is completely frowned upon for even Muslim scholar to arrive at a different conclusion from the Ijma. If today, as a Muslim, you are interpreting an hadith or verse differently from the Ijma interpretation, you are totally committing an offense.

For you as a lay man in traditional Islamic law, you can only stick with the ijma. You can't differ from them.

No, the highlighted you cited is rather referring to rituals and good deeds. For instance, no matter how great our generation is, we can not be greater than the Sahaba. Why?. Because they met the prophet (saw). They saw him. They struggled with him yet a whole lots of them don't even know or read many books like we do. Yet many things we know today are derived from their practical work. They endured worst hardships. So those who met the prophet are greater than is in this sense.

Only a faction amongst muslims closed the door on ijtihad. Not so Muslims. I remember having discussions with a brother here who always disagree with me, and he said there is no more ijtihad IF we encounter a situation and the situation has precedent, then we apply ijtihad done by sohaba. We only apply our own ijtihad IF situation did not exist in their time. He said. Many times have told him that sahaba aren't here now and we are faced with new situations but he snubbed me.

Actually I should ask you what do you mean by ijtihad?. What do you expect to be amended in iur literature? Salat, Ramadan, Hajj, ZAKAT?

Or Huddud?. I need to understand this please. What exactly do you want to be reformed?.


Is this type of reform you talking about?

There is no proof in such verses that God forgives people sins that have not been committed yet. Forgiveness comes after sin, not before sin.
Also, yes. God may forgive past sins of over a year, but do you think one really need to fast before this can happen?
Do you think that unless one fast on Arafat day, he cannot be forgiven for his sins of the last 12 months?

Empiree:
No, the highlighted you cited is rather referring to rituals and good deeds. For instance, no matter how great our generation is, we can not be greater than the Sahaba. Why?. Because they met the prophet (saw). They saw him. They struggled with him yet a whole lots of them don't even know or read many books like we do. Yet many things we know today are derived from their practical work. They endured worst hardships. So those who met the prophet are greater than is in this sense.

Only a faction amongst muslims closed the door on ijtihad. Not so Muslims. I remember having discussions with a brother here who always disagree with me, and he said there is no more ijtihad IF we encounter a situation and the situation has precedent, then we apply ijtihad done by sohaba. We only apply our own ijtihad IF situation did not exist in their time. He said. Many times have told him that sahaba aren't here now and we are faced with new situations but he snubbed me.

Actually I should ask you what do you mean by ijtihad?. What do you expect to be amended in iur literature? Salat, Ramadan, Hajj, ZAKAT?

Or Huddud?. I need to understand this please. What exactly do you want to be reformed?.


Is this type of reform you talking about?

Peace.

Let's not lose perspective. My entire purpose of raising this discussion from Dontconvert2Islam is to point the fact that many Muslims today remain ignorant & and those who are not ignorant do not want to understand traditional Islam from the perspective of ijma. You and many others, deny the ijma on several verses and hadith, and interpret them in your own way. When ever you decide to go against the ijma like this, you're basically doing ijtihad. And such ijtihad is illegal from a traditional scholarly standpoint.

This is my whole point. I must have lost you somewhere along the line. But I was never expressing a need for reform.

usermane:


Peace.

Let's not lose perspective. My entire purpose of raising this discussion from Dontconvert2Islam is to point the fact that many Muslims today remain ignorant & and those who are not ignorant do not want to understand traditional Islam from the perspective of ijma. You and many others, deny the ijma on several verses and hadith, and interpret them in your own way. When ever you decide to go against the ijma like this, you're basically doing ijtihad. And such ijtihad is illegal from a traditional scholarly standpoint.

This is my whole point. I must have lost you somewhere along the line. But I was never expressing a need for reform.

not necessarily. In most cases when we say "this is what they mean" doesn't also mean we go against ijma. It is just further explanation for clarification purposes. Simple.

Now I ask again you, what exactly you want to be reformed?. I don't think you have given one example yet. If you talking about things like what made Don'tconver2islam felt betrayed, that's a matter of translation from Arabic and explaination which he simply was not interested in because he made up his mind despite many people came up to explain to him.

Overhaul reform is not necessarily needed. What is needed is education and proper coordination in my view. Understood now that your are not necessarily expressing a need for reform

AlBaqir:


This is serious. I really really wish to learn more about Yoruba mythology, cultures and rituals.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vw36-siaubo

.

Dificult To Speak Yoruba Next To These Oyinbo People These Days. And It Is So Easy For Western Law Enforcement To Infiltrate Yoruba People



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xUUG-8qUeEs

Prof Ishaq Olanrewaju Oloyede who is the Secretary of the Supreme Council For Islamic Affairs and current JAMB registrar.

You should remember him naa, the same guy that discovered the gold mine in Jamb.

He performed a miracle again at the National Mosque Abuja.

OK, see what happened o.

After every Jumu'at Prayer, it is a normal tradition for the mosque committee to raise money for running of the mosque, that should be familiar as many pastors and guest ministers do this.

Anyway, Prof Oloyede noticed that money raised after every Jumu'at prayer never exceeded 13k-14k.

Hmm, he thought , can this be the case? A mosque with ministers and top government members?!

This had gone on for too long, he thought.

So, one day he decided to personally drop 13k inside the box and the notes were marked without the awareness of the collectors.

After every collector had gone round the mosque to collect money from as many dignitaries as usually present at the mosque, the total money raised still didn't go above 13k and the particular notes he personally dropped were missing........

OK fine, no problem!

The following Friday, he came to mosque with special boxes, the boxes were locked and the keys to them were kept by him. As usual, the collectors went round the mosque as dignitaries dropped their money directly into the boxes and after the whole thing, he opened the boxes and over 400k was realised ! Yeah over 400k !

The collectors disappeared all of a sudden !

This happens in almost every mosque.
Who knows if offering counters in churches help themselves this way too?! Love for wealth has turned people against their hereafter. Corruption in everynooks!

CORRUPTION in MOSQUE, CORRUPTION in CHURCH Even CORRUPTION in SHRINE.??!

Nigerians !!! Nigeria! Nigeria.

American President - Donald Trump explains his statement against Africans:

"If after 50 years of independence you have not built the necessary infrastructure for your people, are you humans?

"If you sit on gold, diamond, oil, manganese, uranium... and your people don't have food, are you humans?

"If to stay in power, you buy weapons from strangers to kill your own citizens, are you humans?

"If your only social project is to stay in power for life, are you being human?

"If you despise and shoot your own citizens like game, who will respect them?"

"if you take all resources meant for development of your country for personal property are you humans?

" if you leave your country healthcare unattended and treat yourself abroad are you humans?

"Until your leaders think less of themselves and more about your people. You are not human but animal.

��Think about this and share.

Assalamu alaikum Fam. It's been a while I posted here. I hope everyone is in good health and iman.

There's something I want to share. The story of Prophet Zakariya has had me thinking for some time. You know how he prayed for a "son" and was eventually blessed with Yahya... Peace be on them both.

My thought on the story is that He actually didn't pray for a biological offspring but more like for a successor, someone He'd groom to carry on with the religious duty of calling people after him, hence his making mention of the fact that his wife was barren, and then his asking for a sign after he was given the good news of Yahya.

Because I'm like "you prayed for a "son", you're told your request would be granted and you're now doubting and asking for a sign?" it doesn't quite add up for me.

So, I'll appreciate inputs from my Seniors... Tbaba1234, Albaqir, Empiree, Sino and you my boss

Walaikum Salam,

It is true that there are cases where we have 'son' by tongue. Such 'son' is not a biological son. Example of this was Nabi Ibrahim(as). QUR'AN says his father was Azar but he was in fact, paternal Uncle. Some said his biological father was a Jinn.

As for Nabi Yahya, there is indication that he was prophet Zakariya's both biological and spiritual son.


Nabi Yahya's birth was a miracle because he was born of a barren mother and an aged father. Prophet Zakariyya (peace be upon him) prayed to Allah (Glory be to Him) to bless him with a son who could prove to be a successful heir and preacher of the religion of Allah (Glory be to Him). “He said: My Lord! surely my bones are weakened and my head flares with hoariness, and, my Lord! I have never been unsuccessful in my prayer to Thee). And surely I fear my cousins after me, and my wife is barren, therefore grant me from Thyself an heir. Who should inherit me and inherit from the children of Yaqoub, and make him, my Lord, one in whom Thou art well pleased” Qur’an.Surah Maryam 19:4-6.


He's kinda protesting in that ayah. His prayer was promptly granted. The Qur'an says: "0' Zakariya! Lo! We bring you a glad tidings of a son whose name is Yahya. We have given the same name to none before him.'' Qur’an.Surah Maryam 19: 7.



The Prophet Zakariya asked out of curiosity, “He said: O my Lord! when shall I have a son, and my wife is barren, and I myself have reached indeed the extreme degree of old age? He(angel) said: So shall it be, your Lord says: It is easy to Me, and indeed I created you before, when you were nothing. He said: My Lord! give me a sign. He(angel) said: Your sign is that you will not be able to speak to the people three nights while in sound health. Qur’an.Surah Maryam 19:8-10.


There isn't indication of third party father in the Ayah above. The discriptions given in these Ayah pointed to biological heir.

Walahu Alam