lastmessenger:

The most important thing is to choose life.

Exactly. God bless you bro.

sinequanon:


An experience can be a guidance or a stumbling block depending on how you choose to relate to it.



Ultimately, the desire to steal is a denial of ones own "latent" creative powers.

Perfection is achieved through realizing that imperfections are a denial of your infinite being.

Heaven/Hell is a 'notion', I said. Not an experience.

The notion of Stealing is based on the notion of Property Rights. What is that based on? Who gives who the right to 'own' something else? The The abolitionists that helps a slave escape, has he just stolen the plantation master's property?

PastorAIO:
Heaven/Hell is a 'notion', I said. Not an experience.

Having the notion is the experience.

That experience has guided some people out of their religious dogma, while for others it is a "stumbling block".

PastorAIO:
The notion of Stealing is based on the notion of Property Rights. What is that based on? Who gives who the right to 'own' something else? The The abolitionists that helps a slave escape, has he just stolen the plantation master's property?

I was going to get into that, but decided it may be too involved. However..

In practice, your rights are no more than what you can agree to or what you can enforce.

The British have had this notion steeped in their politics for decades, if not centuries. A contract is not simply an agreement. A contract is an estimate of the conditions under which agreement will give way to explicit force. As an estimate, it is a movable feast and the intention behind it depreciates with time. i.e if one party in the contract subsequently becomes weak (lacking recourse), it renders the original estimate useless, and the stronger party may ignore terms. A contract without implicit or explicit force is not worth the paper it is written on. The Germans were also big on realpolitik.

However, we also have this moral concept of "Rights", which are more about personal ideals (often claimed to be universal). Ideals are fair enough, but life is what makes us shape them. Our experiences put our ideals to the test.

So, in answer to your question, people give themselves the right to own things. And they may compromise and pool resources to enforce those "rights".

lastmessenger:

It is possible the devil may suffer forever( for the man who deceived the whole world) but for humans who lived a few years and committed timed offence I can't say with certainty that he will be punished forever. My point is based on the sense made by the authors of the site provided by frosbel.
I believe there is always a just recompense of reward for the wrong committed by humans. The idea if total anihilation of the ungodly in hell is very much possible but like I said earlier I have not settled on this.

Okay, you are the only one that answered. i'm guessing that the rest are shy. So, do you think God is unjust to send devil(s) to hell forever?
P.S I'd advice you stick with what the Bible says, and not whatever sense some sites say.

if you read the site the author has not spoken anything against the scriptures. He only interpreted the scriptures different from the traditional interpretations. He did not say that there is no hell or punishment for the unjust, he tried to prove using many scriptures that hell fire which the bible called the second death actually means the total annihilation of the ungodly.
God knows the right punishment for the angel who stayed in the presence of his glory and yet decided to go against him. we were only given a tip of the iceberg on what transpired between God and Satan.Therefore, i cant say if punishing Satan forever is just or not.

Image123:


Okay, you are the only one that answered. i'm guessing that the rest are shy. So, do you think God is unjust to send devil(s) to hell forever?
P.S I'd advice you stick with what the Bible says, and not whatever sense some sites say.

lastmessenger:
if you read the site the author has not spoken anything against the scriptures. He only interpreted the scriptures different from the traditional interpretations. He did not say that there is no hell or punishment for the unjust, he tried to prove using many scriptures that hell fire which the bible called the second death actually means the total annihilation of the ungodly.
God knows the right punishment for the angel who stayed in the presence of his glory and yet decided to go against him. we were only given a tip of the iceberg on what transpired between God and Satan.Therefore, i cant say if punishing Satan forever is just or not.

You're saying that you are inconclusive on the justice of punishing devil(s) forever. IF God punishes man forever, IF, can it be just, or you have a conclusion on that?

Image123:

You're saying that you are inconclusive on the justice of punishing devil(s) forever. IF God punishes man forever, IF, can it be just, or you have a conclusion on that?

Of course God will punish the sinner forever. I have never denied that.what I am yet to conclude on is the nature of the punishment. Is it an eternal conscious punishment or a total annihilation whereby the sinner is totally out of existence.

lastmessenger:

Of course God will punish the sinner forever. I have never denied that.what I am yet to conclude on is the nature of the punishment. Is it an eternal conscious punishment or a total annihilation whereby the sinner is totally out of existence.

I refer to conscious. Would conscious punishment be just?

Image123:


I refer to conscious. Would conscious punishment be just?

It is unjust and even senseless. Punishing people in torment for eternity to achieve what?
Justice demand that they are tortured according their sin and finally brought into a non existent state.

true2god:
He is an agent of darkness zealously seeking e-disciples.

You are right.

I once supported him on the issue of pastors making wealth from the gospel. I was too much in a haste to know that his intention was to destroy the church.

truthman2012:


You are right.

I once supported him on the issue of pastors making wealth from the gospel. I was too much in a haste to know that his intention was to destroy the church.

If you were a true believer, you would have know that NOTHING can destroy the ekklēsia of God except of course you are referring to the institutionalised church ( aka mystery Babylon ), yes that one will be destroyed.

Read Revelation 17:5 and Revelation 14:8

lastmessenger:

Of course God will punish the sinner forever. I have never denied that.what I am yet to conclude on is the nature of the punishment. Is it an eternal conscious punishment or a total annihilation whereby the sinner is totally out of existence.

Brother read the bible, God is not going to torment anyone forever, the wages of sin is death, the soul that sins it shall die, this day I put before you life and death so choose life, these are all clichés from the bible and reiterates again and again that the punishment for persistent sin is everlasting death.

However, many people especially Christians ( so called ) and Jews will be shocked at the end time judgement and how many millions who they thought will be condemned will be saved instead.

One thing I know is this, God looks at the heart and all hearts where righteousness, equity and justice reign, will see life and see it eternally.

Do not be deceived and misled by the churches of men and their numerous idolatries, chief of which is the worship of dead pagan doctrines.

frosbel:


Brother read the bible, God is not going to torment anyone forever, the wages of sin is death, the soul that sins it shall die, this day I put before you life and death so choose life, these are all clichés from the bible and reiterates again and again that the punishment for persistent sin is everlasting death.

However, many people especially Christians ( so called ) and Jews will be shocked at the end time judgement and how many millions who they thought will be condemned will be saved instead.

One thing I know is this, God looks at the heart and all hearts where righteousness, equity and justice reign, will see life and see it eternally.

Do not be deceived and misled by the churches of men and their numerous idolatries, chief of which is the worship of dead pagan doctrines.

Am still reading the site you pasted.Until am done with the whole teaching I can't conclude but so far it clear to me that there are many evidence that the unjust will be totally cut out of existence in the lake of fire which the bible called the second death.

lastmessenger:

Am still reading the site you pasted.Until am done with the whole teaching I can't conclude but so far it clear to me that there are many evidence that the unjust will be totally cut out of existence in the lake of fire which the bible called the second death.

when you have 10 minutes , try this as well - http://www.heraldmag.org/2011/11mj_4.htm

frosbel:


when you have 10 minutes , try this as well - http://www.heraldmag.org/2011/11mj_4.htm

After reading this I can only say that I am wondering why I never know these things even after reading those verses of the scripture. Religion is a powerful blinding force.

lastmessenger:

After reading this I can only say that I am wondering why I never know these things even after reading those verses of the scripture. Religion is a powerful blinding force.

Simple, because we listened to the doctrines of our church and whatever our pastors told us we agreed without proper due diligence.

God wants us to find out the truth ourselves not through a Pastor !

Read : 1 John 2:27 , John 16:13 ,Acts 17:11 , 2 Timothy 2:15 and 1 Thessalonians 5:21.

The issue in Christendom today is that the sheep have mortgaged their brains and minds to mere MEN, and these men then determine what they should think , believe and in many cases do.

Image123:
Sincere questions to frosb, lastmessenger, CAPTIVATOR,Do you believe that God will send devil(s) to hell, do you believe it will be forever?

Gentleman .... The Original Serpent is foretold to be annihalated forever in Genesis 3:15 the promised "seed will bruise him ( Devil) in the head" !! .... When something's HEAD is bruised, no recovery ,it dies forever .... Unlike Jesus dat was bruised in the heel, and recovered by ressurection the third day.

Heb 2:14 Jesus is once again foretold to bring Devil " to nothing " !! Remember Jesus will also bring death " to nothing" !! 1 cor 15:26. Anythin brought to NOTHING doesnt exist. So will be death.

In revelation 20:10, revelation is presented in signs/symbols ( Rev 1:1) Satan is hurled into the lake of fire which symbolize "second DEATH" !! Rev 21:8.. Death is also pictured as been thrown into d lake of fire!! It was explained that this undergo death and thus "will be no more " Rev 21:4,Romans16:20 .

lastmessenger:

It is unjust and even senseless. Punishing people in torment for eternity to achieve what?
Justice demand that they are tortured according their sin and finally brought into a non existent state.

Okay, it is unjust and senseless to punish man, but you didn't make up your mind on whether it's unjust and senseless to punish devil(s) eternally. Your conclusion/opinion is an emotional and moral one, not one based on logic or study or intellect. Thank you.

frosbel:



Simple, because we listened to the doctrines of our church and whatever our pastors told us we agreed without proper due diligence.

God wants us to find out the truth ourselves not through a Pastor !

Read : 1 John 2:27 , John 16:13 ,Acts 17:11 , 2 Timothy 2:15 and 1 Thessalonians 5:21.

The issue in Christendom today is that the sheep have mortgaged their brains and minds to mere MEN, and these men then determine what they should think , believe and in many cases do.

So we can listen to you and your website links right? But if we try to listen to our pastor, we should selectively remember that God wants us to find the truth ourselves. May God save you from delusion.

CAPTIVATOR:


Gentleman .... The Original Serpent is foretold to be annihalated forever in Genesis 3:15 the promised "seed will bruise him ( Devil) in the head" !! .... When something's HEAD is bruised, no recovery ,it dies forever .... Unlike Jesus dat was bruised in the heel, and recovered by ressurection the third day.

Heb 2:14 Jesus is once again foretold to bring Devil " to nothing " !! Remember Jesus will also bring death " to nothing" !! 1 cor 15:26. Anythin brought to NOTHING doesnt exist. So will be death.

In revelation 20:10, revelation is presented in signs/symbols ( Rev 1:1) Satan is hurled into the lake of fire which symbolize "second DEATH" !! Rev 21:8.. Death is also pictured as been thrown into d lake of fire!! It was explained that this undergo death and thus "will be no more " Rev 21:4,Romans16:20 .

Okay, in summary, you don't believe that God would punish devil(s) eternally. Quite a strange and unbiblical view IMHO.
I'll stay with what the Bible says, not what you conjure up at your whim. Genesis 3 says nothing like annihilation, I'm not buying that. What doctor told you about the recoverability of head and heels?
Hebrews 2 talks about what Jesus did to the devil on the cross(when He died), how you smuggle annihilation into that is dangerous. Devil still exists today. Revelations CLEARly tells us devil will be punished forever, and there will be no more death. You conveniently say to forget about that, interesting.

Image123:

So we can listen to you and your website links right? But if we try to listen to our pastor, we should selectively remember that God wants us to find the truth ourselves. May God save you from delusion.

You show a severe case of ineptitude when it comes to the truth of scripture, so go and sit down abeg, let those with humility learn.

Image123:

Okay, in summary, you don't believe that God would punish devil(s) eternally. Quite a strange and unbiblical view IMHO.
I'll stay with what the Bible says, not what you conjure up at your whim. Genesis 3 says nothing like annihilation, I'm not buying that. What doctor told you about the recoverability of head and heels?
Hebrews 2 talks about what Jesus did to the devil on the cross(when He died), how you smuggle annihilation into that is dangerous. Devil still exists today. Revelations CLEARly tells us devil will be punished forever, and there will be no more death. You conveniently say to forget about that, interesting.

Stop spreading your ignorance for the whole world to see, we know you point of view and it has been debunked by even the baby believers on this site, just carry on with your churchianity and let those who want to learn learn.

frosbel:



You show a severe case of ineptitude when it comes to the truth of scripture, so go and sit down abeg, let those with humility learn.

Let's understand you, frosb. You say people should not listen to their pastor or to men. But they should learn from you?

frosbel:


Stop spreading your ignorance for the whole world to see, we know you point of view and it has been debunked by even the baby believers on this site, just carry on with your churchianity and let those who want to learn learn.

Are you afraid or shy? I asked you question, you didn't answer. Lemme talk with those that answer na. You didn't address what i said but you want to chase me away, why?

Image123:

Okay, it is unjust and senseless to punish man, but you didn't make up your mind on whether it's unjust and senseless to punish devil(s) eternally. Your conclusion/opinion is an emotional and moral one, not one based on logic or study or intellect. Thank you.

You just said what I never said. To repeat myself. I said a just reward is that man is punished according to the level of iniquity he comitted.
secondly even bible through many scriptures showed that man will be punished but not tortured forever.the wages of sin is death that is very clear for all to see. Am still wondering how the endless torture doctrine found its way into Christianity. I personally think it is an attempt to keep people in check by e elite but unfortunately the idea have been counterproductive in that people develop thick skin and some totally reject the gospel. Anyway only study shall people be completely free.
My conclusion is not based on logic or interllevt or study? Then what else do you call logic? Is it not logical that a timed offence committed by man should be punished by a timed punishment?

Image123:

Are you afraid or shy? I asked you question, you didn't answer. Lemme talk with those that answer na. You didn't address what i said but you want to chase me away, why?

The guy avoid questions that demand answers that will most likely debunk all of his logical resentments. He would rather open a new mooted thread to avoid confrontation with the truth.

lastmessenger:

You just said what I never said. To repeat myself. I said a just reward is that man is punished according to the level of iniquity he comitted.
secondly even bible through many scriptures showed that man will be punished but not tortured forever.the wages of sin is death that is very clear for all to see. Am still wondering how the endless torture doctrine found its way into Christianity. I personally think it is an attempt to keep people in check by e elite but unfortunately the idea have been counterproductive in that people develop thick skin and some totally reject the gospel. Anyway only study shall people be completely free.
My conclusion is not based on logic or interllevt or study? Then what else do you call logic? Is it not logical that a timed offence committed by man should be punished by a timed punishment?

Jesus described hell and whenever he did he was never dismissive or flippant about the idea of hell. He made clear statements on the severity of the final destination of sinners. He used graphic metaphors and frightening instructions to describe what hell is and and why we must avoid it. It will be so horrific and intolerable that Christ would rather have you pluck your own eyes from its socket to experiencing hell after the transient and natural life.

Farano, I chose to apologize to you in the religious section assuming fully well that you support either christian or islamic religion and both religion propagate forgiveness. I was banned a couple of months ago by a mod in the romance section for trolling. I humbly request that you unban me as I've learnt my lessons and I pledge not to troll in this forum again.

Regards,
Liedetector

@ Sinequanon, everytime I try to answer this your post here (https://www.nairaland.com/2060992/sincere-questions-frosbel/3#29272154), I kept getting banned. It's been almost a week now, I've been banned 3 times.

So I'm not going to go into a long tin about it other than to say that I think you're confusing terms issues.

shdemidemi:


Jesus described hell and whenever he did he was never dismissive or flippant about the idea of hell. He made clear statements on the severity of the final destination of sinners. He used graphic metaphors and frightening instructions to describe what hell is and and why we must avoid it. It will be so horrific and intolerable that Christ would rather have you pluck your own eyes from its socket to experiencing hell after the transient and natural life.

Very true but at the same time Christ never taught that sinners will be subjected to a never ending torture as I have been told since I was small.

PastorAIO:
@ Sinequanon, everytime I try to answer this your post here (https://www.nairaland.com/2060992/sincere-questions-frosbel/3#29272154), I kept getting banned. It's been almost a week now, I've been banned 3 times.

So I'm not going to go into a long tin about it other than to say that I think you're confusing terms issues.

Pastor, there must be some sophisticated intelligence built into the forum software.

lastmessenger:

Very true but at the same time Christ never taught that sinners will be subjected to a never ending torture as I have told since I was small.

Should this not b e seen in the light that the gospel of Christ is not supposed to be embraced simply for avoidance of God's eternal wrath. Presenting a doctrine of hell and heaven easily changes the tone of the gospel from man's volition to follow God because he loves Him to following God out of compulsion for the fear of eternal damnation.

Daniel puts it this way

Dan 12:2
2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.