Katsumoto:
So Akintola reached out to the Northerners and what did Akintola gain for the SW in return? I am not after the appointment of Yoruba sons to positions of power. What was gained in all that? Juxtapose whatever gains he made with the loss of life and property in the SW that followed.

You guys can talk all about the first republic with all the political sagacity of Cicero but one fact escapes you - that was a different era. The various groups had not lived together for Long and there was huge mistrust all around. What did they know of each other? A man who just moved into a new street with new neighbours cant be compared with a man who was born on that street in terms of building relationships.

Akintola ensured the our sons Yorubas were put in position of authority under his regime

WHile Awolowo was playing his own type of Politics, Ibos were VC in the 2 universities in the SW, Ibos were leading all parastatals

You are not after the appointment of Yorubas into power, A lot of Yorubas are after that. That was one of the major campaign points against Jonathan in the last few months

How would FG send 100 Nigerians on scholarship and just a handful of Yorubas because we want to be in the opposition?

Shymexx

Buhari has been like Arsenal a top team but cant win the league, You now bring Pep Guardiola and he wins the league at frst attempt

Or a student who has great potentials but has been studying by himself and been getting 220 in UME for 4 yrs staright not good enough for Medicine , you now give him new materials, send him to JAMB lesson and he comes back ith 290

raumdeuter:


Akintola ensured the our sons Yorubas were put in position of authority under his regime

WHile Awolowo was playing his own type of Politics, Ibos were VC in the 2 universities in the SW, Ibos were leading all parastatals

You are not after the appointment of Yorubas into power, A lot of Yorubas are after that. That was one of the major campaign points against Jonathan in the last few months

How would FG send 100 Nigerians on scholarship and just a handful of Yorubas because we want to be in the opposition?

Therein lies the reason for our disagreement. I will take a healthy increase in the standard of living of the people over the appointment of some Yoruba sons to political office. Nepotism and cronyism only benefit a few; it is never the majority.

The way the Brits constituted Nigeria, the Yoruba were bound to lose in one way or the other.

Katsumoto?? From which hole did you come out from?

omokidew:
I think Tinubu should be named the new "Aare Ona Kakanfo" of yoruba land. He's a fighter [/size][size=8pt]

This is one title Tinubu should avoid, this title has a way of destroying its recipients.

Katsumoto:


Therein lies the reason for our disagreement. I will take a healthy increase in the standard of living of the people over the appointment of some Yoruba sons to political office. Nepotism and cronyism only benefit a few; it is never the majority.

The way the Brits constituted Nigeria, the Yoruba were bound to lose in one way or the other.

How would you get this increase in standard of living without getting into office to start with?

Was Gani able to implement his ideas for the whole of Nigeria or was Awolowo able to implement this?

OAM4J:
Katsumoto?? From which hole did you come out from?

How you doing bro?

raumdeuter:


Buhari in 2011 was not prepared to play with Tinubus brand of politics. He never reached out to Tinubu. He did it the way he has always done earlier and still lost. Buhari didnt even campaign in all the 36 states.

Awolowo rather than work with Bello or Balewa would rather offer himself as Deputy to Azikwe. That was how much he hated the Northern elites

In his UPN days I think he even chose an Ibo man Umeadi from Anambra as running mate. Is that not idealistic?

Its like Wole Soyinka picking Pat Utomi and want to run for presidency

His genius would've been well earned if he had aligned with Buhari in 2011, and won with him. Buhari had a structure in the North. And ACN was at its peak in the SW. However, he bolted on that cos he knew he had absolutely no chance whatsoever. That election was won by GEJ with the shenanigans of the North and Yar Adua family, way before it was held. Hence he put forward an inconsequential candidate who had no chance whatsoever - while cutting a deal with GEJ at the back. The man is an opportunist - and he played it well this time.

Awolowo was a Yoruba man before he became a Nigerian - and he understood the North way better than anyone. I guess that was why he preferred keeping his alliance to the South. Just take a look at the structure of Nigeria, and how everything is lopsided in favour of the North. On a level-playing field, why would you even want to form an alliance with a region like that, which will most likely dominate you?

The Tinubu isn't pro-North as well - he just saw this as a perfect opportunity to spread his tentacles from the SW - to the center. And the timing was also right. This election wasn't just won inside Nigeria - it was sealed time ago outside the country.

raumdeuter:
Shymexx

Buhari has been like Arsenal a top team but cant win the league, You now bring Pep Guardiola and he wins the league at frst attempt

Or a student who has great potentials but has been studying by himself and been getting 220 in UME for 4 yrs staright not good enough for Medicine , you now give him new materials, send him to JAMB lesson and he comes back ith 290

I understand where you are coming but the "greater than Awolowo" thing is just over-the-top. All he did was donate his party's structure and money. The election was sealed time ago.

Let me use sport analogy to buttress my point: it is like saying cos Kobe Bryant dropped 81points on the Raptors, he is automatically greater than Michael Jordan. Or cos LeBron can play PF cos of his size and how this current NBA era is with stretch 4- he is greater than Michael Jordan. When the two eras are different, and Jordan played against HoF centres and PFs who played based on fundamentals - not this weak era. And ignoring the fact the LeBron can't shoot like MJ; doesn't have MJ's killer instinct; and he lost three times in the finals, something MJ never did.

We need to watch how we elevate folks and not become a prisoner of the moment.

raumdeuter:


How would you get this increase in standard of living without getting into office to start with?

Was Gani able to implement his ideas for the whole of Nigeria or was Awolowo able to implement this?

Don't confuse the issues. The job doesn't end with getting into office. Afterall GEJ was in office and he did fcukall other than loot.

Tinubu has been in administration since 1999, what is his legacy? What is his ideology? Yes he is a master tactician, we give him that. Other than APC stopping the rot and bleeding of the SW after the PDP years, one can't state that APC is doing much in the SW. People are surviving; nothing more than that. Are they getting wealthier? Are they living better? Are they better educated? Are they safer? I don't think so. There is so much room for improvement but the improvement is so little. Fashola himself is a better administrator than Tinubu. So it would appear that in Tinubu's era itself, he isn't even the best administrator. But is he currently the best politician in the land, absolutely.

Katsumoto:


Hey bro, just got very busy. How are you?

The great Kats is back! A warm welcome to one of my most respected nairaland forum member. Hope to read from you again uninterruptedly. Jah bless you sir.
I do hope you will make up for the over 7 months you have been absent on this forum.

yokiti:

The great Kats is back! A warm welcome to one of my most respected nairaland forum member. Hope to read from you again uninterruptedly. Jah bless you sir.

Thank you sir. God bless you too.

^^ How was ACN at its strongest in 2011?

They had only won 1 states at the ballot and 3 states at the tribunal

making a total of 4 states out of 36. You dont jump then

He waited until he had captured more states and he was in conrol of a larger base.

you dont challenge until you have equipped yourself adequately

Very interesting discussion. Good to see some familiar names talking about a worthwhile topic.

It's a little difficult for an Awolowo advocate like myself to come to this conclusion, but it's what I think after a dispassionate analysis. Awoists may be underestimating the magnitude of Tinubu's power moves and his indelible impact on Nigeria's future. As Ramdeuter put it earlier, policy and administrative ideas are the stuff dreams are made of until you win at the ballot box and consolidate on political power. Tinubu's managed to do that as the central figure in the old Western region for sixteen years (and possibly longer, if you include his senatorial turn). Compare this to Awolowo's consistent struggle for preeminent leadership, starting with Adelabu in Ibadan in the 1950s, Akintola in the 1960s, military dictatorship in the 1970s and Abiola/Omoboriowo/NPN in the 1980s. Of course these challenges made Awolowo and the Afenifere machine even stronger in many ways, but they did not have the kind of overwhelming control Tinubu's disciples currently exercise in the same region. Shymexx's point about Tinubu's incomplete control of the old Western region is even more applicable to Awolowo. I tend to believe that this just reflects the character of a liberal and politically sophisticated people who like to be presented with choices. There will always be an opposition in Yorubaland, as evidenced by the growth of the new SDP (wherever that goes).

Tinubu cobbled together the survivors of the old AD and the most relevant remnants of Afenifere into a viable national party that now holds power at the center. If you want to really see how difficult it was to do this, I'd suggest reading "Yoruba Elites and Ethnic Politics in Nigeria" by Wale Adebanwi. It paints a fairly unflattering portrait of the AD/Afenifere fallout by a guy who seemed to be in the know. It also gave me a good grasp of why Awo's more natural successors (Bola Ige and Alhaji Jakande) never quite ascended the political heights expected of them. Again, Awoists should know focused Awolowo was on achieving the goal of the highest central office and how hobbled Nigeria has been for the last (edited) 55 years because he wasn't able to achieve that goal, or at the very least install an associate or disciple of his ideals. Tinubu did it.

The revenue model in Lagos will undoubtedly be replicated at the federal level, and is probably the most significant policy change the Buhari administration can make. If Tinubu hadn't engineered this, Lagos may not be in much different shape than Osun or Ebonyi in terms of federal dependance today.

The only thing that gives me a nagging doubt about Tinubu's place in history is when I hear insinuations about the origins of his wealth. I'm inclined to believe that there may have been less-than-above-board deals made at some point, but many of these rumors seem like the same sort of unfounded tosh (as Shymexx might say) that they slandered Awolowo with. Remember, Awolowo was also accused of cutting a secret deal where he would profit from every bottle of Coca-Cola sold in Nigeria (!); charged with selling the whole of Maroko to himself before it became VI extension/Lekki (news to the Onirus, I'm sure); slandered with a claim that he was the secret owner of Shonibare Estate on the mainland (despite the fact that Shonibare family's still doing quite well from that investment) and so on. Cynics may believe that every wealthy Nigerian must have come across their wealth in the worst ways; I've met too many successful but nondescript Nigerians to characterize them all generically. I would still be interested in concrete proof about Tinubu's corruption, but just alleging that he own Oriental Hotels or ARM and "half of Ibeju Lekki" when there's no traceable evidence of that as far as I've seen (I've looked) is silly. I don't think the man is a saint--he certainly was tainted by that U.S. drug ring money laundering issue, although I've heard explanations for that as well--but I'd need clearer evidence of his corruption. I would be very interested in reading more from Laudate or anyone else about Alpha-Beta's contracts, for instance.

Last but not least, I love this blog post from Gani Fawehinmi's kid. Keep in mind that it was written in 2011 and look how he described Buhari, Osinbajo, and (for better or worse as a 'politician') Tinubu: http://aguntasolo.com/2011/07/19/made-in-2003-from-asiwaju-to-jagaban/

All said, the old Western region owes what it is today as the heart of Nigeria's commercial and intellectual life to Awolowo's high ideals and strategic vision, but the whole of Nigeria stands to owe its future (good or bad) to Asiwaju. From the perspective of lasting political relevance, I don't think they are peers. Jagaban don take am.

Katsumoto:


Don't confuse the issues. The job doesn't end with getting into office. Afterall GEJ was in office and he did fcukall other than loot.

Tinubu has been in administration since 1999, what is his legacy? What is his ideology? Yes he is a master tactician, we give him that. Other than APC stopping the rot and bleeding of the SW after the PDP years, one can't state that APC is doing much in the SW. People are surviving; nothing more than that. Are they getting wealthier? Are they living better? Are they better educated? Are they safer? I don't think so. There is so much room for improvement but the improvement is so little. Fashola himself is a better administrator than Tinubu. So it would appear that in Tinubu's era itself, he isn't even the best administrator. But is he currently the best politician in the land, absolutely.

The job is dead in water if you dont get to office.

Fashola had ideas on how to govern and administer Lagos. He would never have made it there without Tinubu

Buahri probably has ideas on how to make this country better but he would never make it without Tinubu.



No one including myself has called Tinubu a better administrator than anyone, I said he is the best politician the Yoruba race has seen, administrative ability, Honesty integrity, he might not make top 20m As long as democracy is still 1 man 1 vote.

Tinubu has done his own job getting the administrators who claim they can change the country into power. Now let the administrators fulfil their own side of the bargain

SirShymexx:

I honestly doubt that based on how GEJ self-destruct by turning PDP into a regional party - and doubling-up as the ruling party, which heavily marginalised the SW.

OBJ also pressed the self-destruct button and he won again in 2003. in spite of GEJ's self destruction, he was still able to poll 3 million votes. take tinubu's influence out of it and GEJ would have won with aplomb.

Politics is a game of chance and numbers. And regardless of his distrust with the North - he would've taken his chance as well. Why didn't Tinubu take the chance and align with Buhari in 2011, when ACN was at its peak?

ACN wasn't at his peak in 2011. they were still finding their feet then. PDP had taken over the SW but lagos state(another credits to tinubu) which most people seem to ignore.

TerraCotta:
Very interesting discussion. Good to see some familiar names talking about a worthwhile topic.

It's a little difficult for an Awolowo advocate like myself to come to this conclusion, but it's what I think after a dispassionate analysis.


All said, the old Western region owes what it is today as the heart of Nigeria's commercial and intellectual life to Awolowo's high ideals and strategic vision, but the whole of Nigeria stands to owe its future (good or bad) to Asiwaju. From the perspective of lasting political relevance, I don't think they are peers. Jagaban don take am.

may God bless you...

raumdeuter:


The job is dead in water if you dont get to office.

Fashola had ideas on how to govern and administer Lagos. He would never have made it there without Tinubu

Buahri probably has ideas on how to make this country better but he would never make it without Tinubu.

No one including myself has called Tinubu a better administrator than anyone, I said he is the best politician the Yoruba race has seen, administrative ability, Honesty integrity, he might not make top 20m As long as democracy is still 1 man 1 vote.

Tinubu has done his own job getting the administrators who claim they can change the country into power. Now let the administrators fulfil their own side of the bargain

True talk.

Well said Terracotta,

I wont deceive myself and assume for a minute that Tinubus wealth is legititmate

But how else do you fight a giant like PDP without money (regardless of the source)

As long as our democracy is still in the realm of what it is currently, You need fearless and politically astute men like Jagaban.

Wole Soyinka, Gani , Solarin etc would be in Lagos arguing and blowing English without finances thinking the boundary of Nigeria ends at Ojota

TerraCotta

How you doing bro?

So we shouldn't look at the impact of Tinubu's policies on the people before we know where to place? Are you suggesting that regardless of what happens, by being a part of the coalition then we already no where he should be placed?

Also, we should ignore the impact of Buhari and the failures of GEJ Buhari won this election because the SW joined forces with the North. But Tinubu himself hasn't won the election or do we assume that Buhari is just a figurehead?

The revenue model in Lagos has made Lagos richer and those connected with those policies. And certainly the same would hold for Nigeria if those policies are replicated on a national level. I would be interested in seeing some data on the GDP per capita for Lagos between 1999 and now.

raumdeuter:
Well said Terracotta,

I wont deceive myself and assume for a minute that Tinubus wealth is legititmate

But how else do you fight a giant like PDP without money (regardless of the source)

As long as our democracy is still in the realm of what it is currently, You need fearless and politically astute men like Jagaban.

Wole Soyinka, Gani , Solarin etc would be in Lagos arguing and blowing English without finances thinking the boundary of Nigeria ends at Ojota

should we really care how jagban made his money? the people he was up against didn't play the game fairly too. it was tinubu versus oil-block owners.

the lekki toll gate is starting to make sense now. jagban needed loads of cash to bring down the evil empire known as PDP. LCC was the vehicle used to fetch that money.

another brilliant masterstroke!

raumdeuter:


The job is dead in water if you dont get to office.

Fashola had ideas on how to govern and administer Lagos. He would never have made it there without Tinubu

Buahri probably has ideas on how to make this country better but he would never make it without Tinubu.



No one including myself has called Tinubu a better administrator than anyone, I said he is the best politician the Yoruba race has seen, administrative ability, Honesty integrity, he might not make top 20m As long as democracy is still 1 man 1 vote.

Tinubu has done his own job getting the administrators who claim they can change the country into power. Now let the administrators fulfil their own side of the bargain

If your position is about Tinubu being the best Yoruba politician, then I may not disagree with you. As long as thats where you leave it.

Katsumoto:


If your position is about Tinubu being the best Yoruba politician, then I may not disagree with you. As long as thats where you leave it.

I think everyone on this thread made that clear. That its about the politics

raumdeuter:
Awolowo was a better administrator, brilliant person but Tinubu was a better Politician than Awolowo

Give Awolowo 100yrs he would never win the givt at the center with his attitude. Awolowo was quoted as saying "Rather than work with Gambari, He would rather die" or something like that.

Katsumoto:
TerraCotta

How you doing bro?

Bros Kats, I dey like Dekunle. Enjoying fine company on a relaxed Good Friday

So we shouldn't look at the impact of Tinubu's policies on the people before we know where to place? Are you suggesting that regardless of what happens, by being a part of the coalition then we already no where he should be placed?

It's hard to gauge. He hasn't actually implemented any programs yet. I don't even know much policy input he'll have, since I think Fayemi (and Osinbajo) are generally regarded as the 'brains' of the crew. In terms of strategy though, Tinubu's achieved something his political forefathers didn't.

Also, we should ignore the impact of Buhari and the failures of GEJ Buhari won this election because the SW joined forces with the North. But Tinubu himself hasn't won the election or do we assume that Buhari is just a figurehead?

You're right--Tinubu's not in office. Maybe this was Awolowo's weakness, though--putting himself up for the top job when another face may have worked better nationally. Buhari is under no illusions about why he's president after four attempts. Of course, he can always turn his back on Tinubu and his segment of the party once he's in office. I doubt it but it's possible. If that happens, maybe we can return to the discussion. In the meantime, Tinubu's still ahead.

The revenue model in Lagos has made Lagos richer and those connected with those policies. And certainly the same would hold for Nigeria if those policies are replicated on a national level. I would be interested in seeing some data on the GDP per capita for Lagos between 1999 and now.

Good points and good questions. Most Lagosians are still struggling and it's far from paradise, but I think the people and the state are better off than they were with each successive administration--1999, 2003, 2007, 2011. I think the improvements in infrastructure will go a long way in extending the benefits of a richer state to its poorer residents. A railway from Okokomaiko to Marina will transform people's lives and reorder property values pretty quickly, I think.

I have no answer on the GDP per capita question but I'd be interested in that myself. Along with the population growth from 1999 to 2015.

coogar:


should we really care how jagban made his money? the people he was up against didn't play the game fairly too. it was tinubu versus oil-block owners.

now the lekki toll gate is starting to make sense now. jagban needed loads of cash to bring down the evil empire known as PDP. LCC was the vehicle used to fetch that money.

another brilliant masterstroke!

Exactly.

Tinubu was fighting against people who had the keys to the national coffers like OBJ and GEJ. Fighting oil blocks etc

How is he supposed to fight this war? with cardboard paper?

I even said Tinubu is the best of the evil we can get. All his investments are in Nigeria employing people, the other side, where are their investments?

Tinubu in his magnanimity saw crooks like Koro, Akeem Gbajabiamila, Afikuyomi but singled out excellent individuals like Fashola, Fayemi etc out who didnt have any political clout for governorship. WHen it would have been easier for him to simply tow the line of other politicians. Without Tinubu Fashola cant win election in SHitta street Surulere

When OBJ had the same power he instead gave us Adedibu, Akala, Fayose, Koro etc

Even during the Iyaloja saga when everyone was attacking him, I supported him because I knew the kind of animals he was fighting and you have to go full gangsters

@Terracotta

Great to see you back on these sides, Sir.

Personally, I won't even mind conceding that he is a better politician than Awo - despite the nuances in the two eras, and the fact that this victory had more to do with being at the right place, at the right time - than his political savviness. Left to me - the election was won time ago, and he did what he ought to do, since PDP is/was his nemesis in the SW. I honestly don't see any genius in that.

However, before we start crowning him - can we talk about his legacy and achievements? Also, what is his ideology and has he got any structure that will stand the test of time like Awo's?

Furthermore, when it comes to great leaders I judge them based on ideology and I will like all the elders on this thread to educate me on Tinubu's ideology.

TerraCotta:

You're right--Tinubu's not in office. Maybe this was Awolowo's weakness, though--putting himself up for the top job when another face may have worked better nationally. Buhari is under no illusions about why he's president after four attempts. Of course, he can always turn his back on Tinubu and his segment of the party once he's in office. I doubt it but it's possible. If that happens, maybe we can return to the discussion. In the meantime, Tinubu's still ahead..

Another excellent point. Tinubu could have insisted on being VP, Instead of Osinbajo. Tinubus baggage would have been easier for the PDP to battle than people like Fashola and Osinbajo that he puts forward

Good points and good questions. Most Lagosians are still struggling and it's far from paradise, but I think the people and the state are better off than they were with each successive administration--1999, 2003, 2007, 2011. I think the improvements in infrastructure will go a long way in extending the benefits of a richer state to its poorer residents. A railway from Okokomaiko to Marina will transform people's lives and reorder property values pretty quickly, I think.

Lagos would always continue to struggle regardless of who is governor as long as other governors in the country are not carryng their weight

75% of graduates in Ngeria after NYSC head to Lagos, 50 % of secondary school leavers head to Lagos. Lagos has the smallest land mass So how would New York look if all the other states are terrible and 50,000 people per day buy one way tickets into Lagos

In 1991 Lagos was 5m, in 2015 15yrs later its about 20m. Let any economist tell me how its not a miracle that Lagos hasnt sank into the Atlantis

Katsuuuuuu welcome back! Hope you will not run away again when we steal your Sterling.

SirShymexx:
@Terracotta

Great to see you back on these sides, Sir.

Personally, I won't even mind conceding that he is a better politician than Awo - despite the nuances in the two eras, and the fact that this victory had more to do with being at the right place, at the right time - than his political savviness. Left to me - the election was won time ago, and he did what he ought to do, since PDP is/was his nemesis in the SW. I honestly don't see any genius in that.

However, before we start crowning him - can we talk about his legacy and achievements? Also, what is his ideology and has he got any structure that will stand the test of time like Awo's?

Furthermore, when it comes to great leaders I judge them based on ideology and I will like all the elders on this thread to educate me on Tinubu's ideology.

Fiscally, Tinubu is a Capitalist; socially, he has no ideology or it isn't visible.

Pataki:
Katsuuuuuu welcome back! Hope you will not run away again when we steal your Sterling.

Thanks bro

Hahahahaha - You can have Sterling for £50M.

raumdeuter:


Another excellent point. Tinubu could have insisted on being VP, Instead of Osinbajo. Tinubus baggage would have been easier for the PDP to battle than people like Fashola and Osinbajo that he puts forward




Lagos would always continue to struggle regardless of who is governor as long as other governors in the country are not carryng their weight

75% of graduates in Ngeria after NYSC head to Lagos, 50 % of secondary school leavers head to Lagos. Lagos has the smallest land mass So how would New York look if all the other states are terrible and 50,000 people per day buy one way tickets into Lagos

In 1991 Lagos was 5m, in 2015 15yrs later its about 20m. Let any economist tell me how its not a miracle that Lagos hasnt sank into the Atlantis

Tinubu did put himself forward as VP but was talked out of it.

Your comments about Lagos carrying other states is on point.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JZ_LVs1BYdY

tinubu is a funny man.

PDP - property development party.

coogar:

OBJ also pressed the self-destruct button and he won again in 2003. in spite of GEJ's self destruction, he was still able to poll 3 million votes. take tinubu's influence out of it and GEJ would have won with aplomb.

ACN wasn't at his peak in 2011. they were still finding their feet then. PDP had taken over the SW but lagos state(another credits to tinubu) which most people seem to ignore.

may God bless you...

But has OBJ ever had any political clout over the SW? I don't even rate the man - he looks like a coward to me, but a very cunning one loool.

When did ACN displace PDP in the SW? I was alluding to that period. That was the peak of the party - it was on the decline before the APC merger.

I rate the Tinubu man but the way folks just threw Awo under the bus on this thread was just off-putting. How dare you do that to a man who sacrificed everything for the Yorubas? He gave Yorubas the structure and an ideology to build on. Gave them all kinds of first in everything and educated more than two generations for free. My pops will die for Awo - the man joined the Army at age 18 towards the end of the civil war to fight cos Awo told folks to join the army. But never ended up on the frontline. How many Yoruba folks would do that for Tinubu?