To Tithe or Not to Tithe? - Christianity Etc (43) - Nairaland
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| Re: To Tithe or Not to Tithe? by pilgrim1(f): 11:24pm On Oct 08, 2008 |
Sorry folks. . . I've been quite busy all day and could not have been here any earlier. Hope you all had a very wonderful day.  @KunleOshob, KunleOshob:Well, perhaps I should start by asking you to closely read 1 Corinthians 9:13-14 and help us understand what the apostle meant by the clause "Even so" in verse 14. While I'm waiting, I might hang around for a while and see if I could chip in one or teo things in response to other entries.pilgrim.1:So what is it predicated on, or better still what is the biblical basis or instruction for christian tithing?? Cheers. |
| Re: To Tithe or Not to Tithe? by pilgrim1(f): 11:26pm On Oct 08, 2008 |
drlawng:Hmm, have you carefully checked out your interpretation about the bold? |
| Re: To Tithe or Not to Tithe? by pilgrim1(f): 12:04am On Oct 09, 2008 |
@KunleOshob, Well, let me try and spend some time answering some of the issues that have been raised. It’s been quite a day and it’s interesting to know that the thread has grown. KunleOshob:First, let me answer the first two highlights in your enquiry: predication and basis of Christian tithing. (A) It is predicated on faith, not on the “Law”. The Bible shows clearly that the Law is not of faith (Galatians 3:12); but the problem with many people is that they always set their eyes on “the Law” when discussing tithes - and that is how they miss what moved Abraham to offer tithes to Melchizedek even where there was no “Law” for him to do so (Genesis 14:20). No less than three times in Hebrews it is said that Abraham gave tithes to Melchizedek (Hebrews 7:2, 4 & 6) – and not a single time was this said to have been based on a “Law” that compelled him to do so. (B) The basis of Christian tithing is the Melchizedek Priesthood Tithing under the ‘Law’ was based on the Levitical priesthood, for under it (the Levitical priesthood) the people received the Law (Heb. 7:11). It was under that ‘Law’ that the Levites had a “commandment to take tithes of the people according to the law” (v.5). On the other hand, Christians are called to a new covenant based on the priesthood of Melchizedek (and not after the Levitical priesthood). The Melchizedek priesthood is not based on the Law, but rather is according to the power of an endless life (see Heb. 7:15-16). These two priesthoods are in direct contrast; and the climax of this contrast as regards the tithes is given in Hebrews 7:8 (AMP) – (A) Furthermore, here [in the Levitical priesthood] tithes are received by men who are subject to death; (B) while there [in the case of Melchizedek], they are received by one of whom it is testified that he lives [perpetually]” When one considers issues about Christian tithes, the first question to ask is: on what basis are men called to tithe? Since the Bible shows that it is on the basis of priesthoods, one then has to understand that the distinction between them by recognizing that: (a) under the Law, tithes were given according to the Levitical priesthood (b) under the New Covenant, tithes are received according to the Melchizedek priest hood. The fact that ‘the less is blessed by the better’ (Heb. 7:7) should make us understand why even Levi was said to have paid tithes to Melchizedek through Abraham (v. 9-10). |
| Re: To Tithe or Not to Tithe? by pilgrim1(f): 12:07am On Oct 09, 2008 |
I now come to the issue of where we find the ‘instruction’ for Christian tithing. KunleOshob:(C) The instruction for Christian tithing – a divine principle The apostles instruct us with regards to this matter by pointing out something which many people often miss – the fact that even in the NT, such a ministry is said to have been ordained by the Lord (1 Cor. 9:14). Although I have reiterated this point several times, it seems the time has come to discuss it at length and share reasons why this is so for the Christian. 1 Corinthians 9:14 states: “Even so hath the Lord ordained that they which preach the gospel should live of the gospel.” The words “even so” should indicate that the apostle was connecting verse 14 with the previous verse 13 – ‘Do ye not know that they which minister about holy things live of the things of the temple? and they which wait at the altar are partakers with the altar?’ When he asked the question “Do you not know”, what immediately comes to mind is that the apostle was calling our attention back to the scenario in the OT, particularly as exemplified in Numbers 18. What does he want us to know? There are two things he highlights in 1 Cor. 9:13 ~~ (a) those who minister about holy things – thus, ‘the Temple’ (b) they which wait at the altar – thus, ‘partakers with the altar’ Both concepts are enunciated in Numbers 18:3 & 5 where they are thus called (a) the charge of all the Tabernacle; and (b) the charge of the Altar. However, as far as ministry to the congregation is concerned, the LORD in verse 6 tells us that the Levites were “a gift* for the LORD, to do the service of the tabernacle of the congregation”; but they were not to attend upon the vessels of the sanctuary and the altar (see v.3). Now, when the apostle in 1 Cor. 9:13 noted that “they which minister about holy things live of the things of the temple”, he most certainly must have been referring to Numberse 18:21 in relation to tithes given to the Levites for their sustenance in the service of the LORD: “I have given the children of Levi all the tenth in Israel for an inheritance, for their service which they serve, even the service of the tabernacle of the congregation.” After the apostle draws our attention to the fact above, he immediately tells us in 1 Cor. 9:14 that: “EVEN SO hath the Lord ordained that they which preach the gospel should live of the gospel.” It was a clear case of saying that “JUST AS” we find the Levites living on the tithes in Numbers 18:21, “EVEN SO” the Lord had ordained the very same thing for Christian ministers under the new covenant. He does not ask us to legalistically apply the Law under the old covenant; rather, he draws from the example (or ‘principle’) of the ministry of the Levites and concludes that “even so” the Lord Himself had ordained this minsitry for Christians under the New Covenant. People who have been looking for the term “tithes” in the NT will do very well to study 1 Corinthians 9:13-14, and that was why I have been asking for several pages now what is meant by the apostle’s statement there. *(compare Eph. 4:8, 11-12 where Christian minsiters are also a gift to the Body of Christ) |
| Re: To Tithe or Not to Tithe? by pilgrim1(f): 12:11am On Oct 09, 2008 |
Now, let’s consider a few other things that many people still have as issues when dealing with tithing as for Christians. (1) But the word “tithes” or “tithing” is not found in the NT. This is one of the basic mistakes people use as arguments for not understanding the subject. However, the words ‘tithe’ (Matt. 23:23), ‘tithes’ (Luke 18:12 & Hebrews 7:6, 8, 9), and ‘tenth/tenth parts’ (Hebrews 7:2 & 4) appear in the NT as referenced (using the KJV). Of these references, the first (Matt. 23:23) shows that it was not condemned even by the Lord; while the second set of references discuss this issue on various principles. (2) But then, we are not under the LAW but under grace. True, and neither is tithe dealth with in the Bible as being only a matter of the LAW. Abraham was not under the LAW when he gave tithes to Melchizedek; and the principle of Abraham’s faith is a clear pointer for the Christian under the new covenant (see Galatians 3:7). When someone remains so cemented on the idea that “tithes = LAW”, then it would be difficult for such people to see what actually moved Abraham to give tithes to Melchizedek in the first place. (3) But isn’t it true that tithing is based on the Levites? More than that, the epistle to the Hebrews helps us to understand that a basic question to ask in matters of the tithes is this: “Under what priesthood are Christians called to tithe?” The simple answer is the Melchizedek Priesthood, and not the Levitical priesthood – both of which are directly contrasted in Hebrews 7:8. That is why I have often consistently stated that I do not argue the principle of NT tithing under the Law, because that would mean that we are still treating tithes under the Levitical priesthood instead of the Melchizedek priesthood. (4) But is tithe not always 10% of our income? Unfortunately, I’m not of those who see it as always and only 10%. Why not so? For the plain reason that the principle of tithes is stated clearly in Num. 18:29 to be simply the ‘best/principal/hallowed part’ of our offerings. This is why the ‘heave offering’ of the Levites (which was their own tithes) is only 1% of all the value of the tithes they received from Israel. This 1% is known sometimes as “the tithe of the tithes” (Neh. 10:38); and there is a difference between 1% and 10%. On very rare occasions, other people have given 100% of everything they had (eg., the widow’s mites or farthing – Luke 21:2-4). So, if someone is looking for exactly 10%, they have missed the very essence of what tithing points to – which is the ‘best/hallowed part’ of our offerings. This is why the NT does not stipulate an exact figure, but simply says that it should be ‘according to what a man has purposed in his heart’ (2 Cor. 9:7). (5) But doesn’t tithe make ministers to be manipulative? That is not a problem at all to me – for what is it really that man has not manipulated under the sun? Is it money matters for filthy lucre’s sake (Titus 1:11)? Is it matters related to the Lord’s Supper to the extent of drunkenness (1 Cor. 11:20-21)? Or is it matters about our freedom in Christ that others have turned into licentiousness and lasciviousness (Jude 4)? None of these abuses of men should drive us to the extremes of assuming that these matters are all “false doctrines”! Just because someone turns the Lord’s Supper into something else does not mean I should start going about with accusations of referring to it as “false Lord’s Supper” and then decide no longer to partake of the Table of the Lord – such an idea is unhealthy. For those who have manipulated this ministry of the tithes to feed their lust, they shall be dealt with by the Lord Himself. For me, it is my happy privilege to obey what He has “ordained” (1 Cor. 9:14). (6) But won’t people think that tithes are like ‘rewards’ for service? Again, I have no problem with that. The Bible clearly says that those who minister the Word to the saints should be counted worthy of their rewards – and there are several instances to this in the NT: ‘Let the elders that rule well be counted worthy of double honour, especially they who labour in the word and doctrine. For the scripture saith, Thou shalt not muzzle the ox that treadeth out the corn. And, The labourer is worthy of his reward.’ ~ [1 Tim. 5:17-18] ‘. . .for the workman is worthy of his meat’ ~ [Matt. 10:10]. ‘. . or who feedeth a flock, and eateth not of the milk of the flock? . . If we have sown unto you spiritual things, is it a great thing if we shall reap your carnal things?’ ~ [1 Cor. 9:4-14] (7) But isn’t tithes a false doctrine that will embitter many Christians? I understand that many people will become bitter and assume that they know what the Bible teaches about tithes, whereas they simply don’t know that much. Often, I come across many believers who complain that their pastors are teaching “this false doctrine” and they consequently become so bitter. The one thing I ask them is this: please take your Bible in your hand, and show me where God called it a “false doctrine”. The result has always been the same – they often refer to what one pastor somewhere said, did, or thought; but they never are able to show where God calls it what they have alleged. There really is no need to be bitter simply because we assume we “know” so much about this issue. Most often, this bitterness springs from a pride that needs to be checked by the truth of God’s Word itself. My prayer daily is that God may teach me His Word so powerfully that it will knock me off my tightly held presumptions - so that when I speak the Word, doubts are dissolved and blessings ensue. If I habour any pride or bitterness, believe me – that prayer will never have been answered. The subject of tithing in the Bible (OT and NT) is not a ‘false doctrine’. We become bitter many times because we accuse it of things which the Word of God never calls it. We need to sit down and radically ask ourselves some serious questions before assuming that everyone else is wrong and we are right! Bottomline is that, if we don’t want to tithe, God does not force us to. Even though He has ordained this ministry for Christians (1 Cor. 9:14), He will not force it upon any one of His children. It is up to each one of us to either humble our hearts in repentance and seek to obey what He ordained; or otherwise be contentious about this matter and live in wranggling with our brethren who are tithers. (8) But can’t a Christian just “give” without tithing? Indeed, the Christian may choose to just merely “give” without tithing – and the question is: “Give WHAT”? Sometimes we get into the funny habit of using semantics that hide our poverty and yet fail to understand that this attitude tends to rebellion. For example, there is no place where we read of “freewill offering(s)” in the N[/b]ew [b]T[/b]estament. Every reference to that term is in the LAW and the prophets of the [b]OT – go and check it out! A few examples using the KJV: Leviticus 22:21 Leviticus 22:23 Leviticus 23:38 Numbers 15:3 Numbers 29:39 Deuteronomy 16:10 Deuteronomy 23:23 Ezra 1:4 Ezra 3:5 Ezra 7:16 Ezra 8:28 But the funny thing is that the same Christians who kick against the tithes are very much at ease to speak of giving “freewill offerings”. Let’s think for a moment: why give “FREEWILL OFFERINGS” and quarrel against “TITHES” when both of these terms were used in the OT and the former does not even appear in the NT?!?  We have seen that tithes were spoken of in 1 Corinthians 9:13-14 in reference to Numbers 18:21; and we can understand that the apostles were careful to point our hearts to the real meaning of this ministry instead of being stuck on whether it is called ‘tithes. . . freewill offerings. . . firstfruits. . .vows. . . or heave offerings’.Of course, there are myriads of other questions to be answered. However, I’ve limited myself to the basic ones that we have been considering so far as germane to the present stage of our discussions. Blessings all. |
| Re: To Tithe or Not to Tithe? by pilgrim1(f): 12:16am On Oct 09, 2008 |
@sarmy, Many thanks for your submissions and a few other questions which you brought up. If they had been dealt with in my previous repostes the last few days, I would have skipped along and attended to other issues. However, although a few of them have been touched upon, others would need to be examined. sarmy: If we look at this critically, not giving exalt tenth of ones income and calling it tithe is more grivious of a sin than not paying tithe at all, . .Okay, please look again at issue #4 above in my reposte as to why I do not hold tithes to be always and only 10%. People who always assume it to be so have sadly not examined the real issue about what the tithes are pointing to – which is that, tithes are pointing to the ‘best part’ or ‘hallowed part’ of all our offerings to God (cf. Num. 18:29 – ‘of all the best thereof’). That is the real import of tithing, and not the amount one calculates. sarmy: if we look at the example of Ananih and Sapphira, they wanted to give like others but not exalt amount they aught to have given, and it attracted serious penalty.Well, I don’t think that “exact amount” was the real matter with Ananias and Sapphira in Acts 5. They had a choice to have done whatever they wanted to do with their money (v. 4 – “whiles it remained, was it not thine own? and after it was sold, was it not in thine own power?”). However, the real problem was lying about their real intention – “thou hast not lied unto men, but unto God” ( vv.4 & 8). sarmy: When you bring tithe to the alter as demanded in most churches, you are saying for this period, this is exact tenth of all my income, increases, bonuses, gifts etcThe moment we begin to understand that the real issue of tithing is not the amount calculated in %, then it becomes easier to see what exactly God wants the believer to be occupied with. Let us not be preoccupied with exactitude of amounts or figures – the real import of tithes and offerings are far beyond that. sarmy: From this forum, it seems some support gross while others net income, should we say as led by the Spirit of God since this is not specifically stated in the new testament how tithe is to be paid, except in the old testament where we have different types of it but money unsupported.In both the OT and NT, believers are led to give as the Spirit of God led them. This is why we read in such texts as Exodus 35:21 about “every one whose heart stirred him up, and every one whom his spirit made willing”. For this to happen, the Spirit of God would no doubt had led them in that event, as is demonstrated in the following verses where it is God Himself Who moves the hearts of people for His cause: ‘And Moses called Bezaleel and Aholiab, and every wise hearted man, in whose heart the LORD had put wisdom , even every one whose heart stirred him up to come unto the work to do it’ ~~ [Exodus 36:2] ‘Then rose up the chief of the fathers of Judah and Benjamin, and the priests, and the Levites, with all them whose spirit God had raised , to go up to build the house of the LORD which is in Jerusalem’ ~~ [Ezra 1:5] This principle is no less true, for it is the Spirit of God that leads the Christian as well to give of his/her substance for the glory of God (Rom. 15:16). sarmy: Let's assume Local church as you said but, does it mean there is no liberty to give tithe to other churches in need if we are in position to help, especially if we also get from them, spiritual nourishmentBy all means we can give tithes in support of the ministry of other local churhces. This was even practiced among Christians in the apostolic era (cf. 2 Cor. 8:2 & 14). However, we are encouraged to be mindful to administer our tithes in our local churches – for that is where God identifies each believer (cf. vs. 24). Many blessings. |
| Re: To Tithe or Not to Tithe? by sarmy(m): 10:19am On Oct 09, 2008 |
@Pilgrim Ummm! and you said you no be pastor! Seriously speaking, I think you need to write a book on tithe. If this is how pastors are preaching it, many may understand better, you've really dealt with it, I still have one question, though and I may not bother you again - Would it be appropriate to use Mal 3:8-10 to enforce tithe to the body of Christ, I know you have indirectly answered this but for clarity sake, I need a DIRECT answer. Many Thanks Remain blessed |
| Re: To Tithe or Not to Tithe? by FifiO(f): 10:38am On Oct 09, 2008 |
My grouse really is the manipulation of the word of God for material benefit, it makes me feel betrayed as a christian that our "trusted" christian leaders can be deceiving us.Lets give them this-some of them do not full understand the word of God in certain matters. But again the church is not for perfect men but for perfecting the saints. We can only pray that that day when the earth will be full of the knowledge of God should come speedily. We all need to know the truth. It is our liberty. That deceit is the real issue, I had similar experience where pastor personally cursed those that did not pay tithe for that weekThat's truely sad and can be challenging to one's faith. What can I say? Grace & Peace. Blessings! |
| Re: To Tithe or Not to Tithe? by Okijajuju1(m): 10:49am On Oct 09, 2008 |
FifiO:F. that, they know what they are doing. Every pastor wants the good life. The only people I can still look at with any sort of respect are the othodox pastors, i.e the Catholics, anglicans and their likes. Atleast I know the rev. father will not buy a G5 jet with my tithe, or buy an armani suit with my offering. |
| Re: To Tithe or Not to Tithe? by KunleOshob(m): 10:54am On Oct 09, 2008 |
@pilgim.1 I have read all the epistles you just wrote on the false doctrine we have been discussing and all i can say is that for all your effort and painstaking attempt to confuse us, your epistle is long on matter but very shallow on points and real facts, i can't imagine how any one can correlate 1 corinthians 9:14 with tithes, there is simply no logic in that correlation, the passage at best indicates we should give to the church it says absolutely nothing about tithes. The kind of approach you have used is what a lot of pastors use to confuse us quoting scriptures out of context and drawing parrallels with completely unrelated scripture. I am actually sick of your using the example of Abraham who gave a one off tenth of his spoils war to justify christian tithing , there is simply no resemblance. Neither is there any instruction in the bible to do as abraham did. for instance we observe the lord's supper today becos jesus asked us to "do it in memory of him" not just becos he had a one off special supper with his disciples. Also again the hebrew passage you keep quoting out of context i would reproduce here so every body can read it from the beginning to the end and draw there own conclusions. I would also highlight the relevant parts which explained why tithes is not revlevant to the priesthood of christ and why it is a useless and weak law. Cos all this your using isolated verses which are short on substance to jusify what is not of God is really getting to me. Also God never called tithes a false doctrine in the bible becos what was being practised in biblical times was according to God's instruction not the fraudulent variant we have today. for your information Tithes did not find it's way into the christian church till the year 586AD at the council of macon (catholic encyclopeadia) when the financial needs of the catholic church was increasing and they were looking for ways to raise money, even then the catholic church does not practise tithing any more cause they later realsied that it was manipulative. Obviously God could not have condenmed the type of tithing being practised today in the bible since this type of tithing did not start until almost 500 years after the last book in the bible was written. Now back to the book of hebrews: Hebrews 7 1 This Melchizedek was king of the city of Salem and also a priest of God Most High. When Abraham was returning home after winning a great battle against the kings, Melchizedek met him and blessed him. 2 Then Abraham took a tenth of all he had captured in battle and gave it to Melchizedek. The name Melchizedek means “king of justice,” and king of Salem means “king of peace.” 3 There is no record of his father or mother or any of his ancestors—no beginning or end to his life. He remains a priest forever, resembling the Son of God. 4 Consider then how great this Melchizedek was. Even Abraham, the great patriarch of Israel, recognized this by giving him a tenth of what he had taken in battle. 5 Now the law of Moses required that the priests, who are descendants of Levi, must collect a tithe from the rest of the people of Israel, who are also descendants of Abraham. 6 But Melchizedek, who was not a descendant of Levi, collected a tenth from Abraham. And Melchizedek placed a blessing upon Abraham, the one who had already received the promises of God. 7 And without question, the person who has the power to give a blessing is greater than the one who is blessed. 8 The priests who collect tithes are men who die, so Melchizedek is greater than they are, because we are told that he lives on. 9 In addition, we might even say that these Levites—the ones who collect the tithe—paid a tithe to Melchizedek when their ancestor Abraham paid a tithe to him. 10 For although Levi wasn’t born yet, the seed from which he came was in Abraham’s body when Melchizedek collected the tithe from him. 11 So if the priesthood of Levi, on which the law was based, could have achieved the perfection God intended, why did God need to establish a different priesthood, with a priest in the order of Melchizedek instead of the order of Levi and Aaron? 12 [b]And if the priesthood is changed, the law must also be changed to permit it. 13 For the priest[Jesus Christ] we are talking about belongs to a different tribe, whose members have never served at the altar as priests[levites]. 14 What I mean is, our Lord came from the tribe of Judah, and Moses never mentioned priests coming from that tribe. 15 This change has been made very clear since a different priest, who is like Melchizedek, has appeared. 16 Jesus became a priest, not by meeting the physical requirement of belonging to the tribe of Levi, but by the power of a life that cannot be destroyed. 17 And the psalmist pointed this out when he prophesied, “You are a priest forever in the order of Melchizedek.”[c] 18 Yes, the old requirement about the priesthood was set aside because it was weak and useless. 19 For the law never made anything perfect. But now we have confidence in a better hope, through which we draw near to God. 20 This new system was established with a solemn oath. Aaron’s descendants became priests without such an oath, 21 but there was an oath regarding Jesus. For God said to him, “The Lord has taken an oath and will not break his vow: ‘You are a priest forever.’”[d] 22 Because of this oath, Jesus is the one who guarantees this better covenant with God. 23 There were many priests under the old system, for death prevented them from remaining in office. 24 But because Jesus lives forever, his priesthood lasts forever. 25 Therefore he is able, once and forever, to save[e] those who come to God through him. He lives forever to intercede with God on their behalf. 26 He is the kind of high priest we need because he is holy and blameless, unstained by sin. He has been set apart from sinners and has been given the highest place of honor in heaven.[f] 27 Unlike those other high priests, he does not need to offer sacrifices every day. They did this for their own sins first and then for the sins of the people. But Jesus did this once for all when he offered himself as the sacrifice for the people’s sins. 28 The law appointed high priests who were limited by human weakness. But after the law was given, God appointed his Son with an oath, and his Son has been made the perfect High Priest forever. Now any body that reads the above passage with an open mind would see that it in no way justifies or requests tithes of christians, the concluding part of the passge is very instructive as to what the whole passage was about which was basically trying to explain the kind of priesthood of Jesus Christ and an analogy was drawn to melchizedek cos like Jesus Christ he lives forever. There was definitely no instruction implied or otherwise that tithes was required for the priesthood of Jesus. The story of the tithe in that passage was just to demonstrate that Melchizedek was greater than Abraham the Father of Israel, it now equated Jesus to melchizedek who is greater than Abraham. Now if we realize that the people this letter was addressed to was the hebrew people and we acknowledge that Abraham was their greatest ancestor equating Jesus to someone(melchizedek) who was acknowledge to be greater than their greatest ancestor was an attempt to drive home the point of How great Jesus was. It was common practise in those days to draw parrallels in peoples existing beliefs to butress and preach the gospel of jesus christ several examples of this strategy occurs all over the epistical books. The passage also tells us that the levitical law of tithing must change in verse 12, it futher described it as a weak and useless law in verse 18. 1 Corinthians 9:20-23: 20 When I was with the Jews, I lived like a Jew to bring the Jews to Christ. When I was with those who follow the Jewish law, I too lived under that law. Even though I am not subject to the law, I did this so I could bring to Christ those who are under the law. 21 When I am with the Gentiles who do not follow the Jewish law,[a] I too live apart from that law so I can bring them to Christ. But I do not ignore the law of God; I obey the law of Christ. 22 When I am with those who are weak, I share their weakness, for I want to bring the weak to Christ. Yes, I try to find common ground with everyone, doing everything I can to save some. 23[b] I do everything to spread the Good News and share in its blessings.[/b] The above passage should shed more light on why Paul used Abraham (who was highly revered by the hebrews) and Melchizedek to explain how great Jesus was. 1 Like |
| Re: To Tithe or Not to Tithe? by KunleOshob(m): 10:58am On Oct 09, 2008 |
FifiO:Then such a person as no business preaching the word of God, the bible is their for all to use if he/she cannot diligently study it and learn what God is saying, such a person is commiting a very geavious sin cause he/ she is leading the children of God astray. |
| Re: To Tithe or Not to Tithe? by anonimi: 11:13am On Oct 09, 2008 |
pilgrim.1, I think you have, in your recent responses, moved away from the question of whether tithes are obligatory or not and using Biblical references that encourage giving in general terms to God's work and ministers to give cover to those who are tithe-mongers. I detect from your earlier submissions that you realise tithes are not required of Christians, we are to give as we freely want to and that may be 100% of income and even assets in some instances based on what revelation the individual has received directly from God just as was the case of the widow of Zarephat. Please note that this is different from whan a pastor says somone will receive financial miracle if he gives 100%, in a congregation of two or more people- that is fraud. I also perceive that lately you are taking this as a competition of sorts that you can and should win. Unfortunately by so doing you may be leaving yourself open to misrepresenting Christ whom you set out to uphold. I beseech you my dear siter to tread carefully and reflect fully on what you write and what these 419 pastors may do with it. Shalom. |
| Re: To Tithe or Not to Tithe? by pilgrim1(f): 11:46am On Oct 09, 2008 |
Hi @sarmy, sarmy:Lol, I go lie again? I no qualify by any means to carry that badge O!  sarmy:Many people have said about the same thing. For the meantime, I just want to share my thoughts from my heart; and if I ever get to actually write that book, I would like it to be the product of experience and maturity rather than head knowledge. Of course, many people have shared deep matters with me on this subject; but I would not like to put anything on the shelf until it has been severely criticised and assessed by very mature Christians who can keenly detect any misunderstandings thereto that I might not have seen. sarmy:Well, I would rather say that you guys have brought out the very best in this subject - I only synthesised them into a neat outline. sarmy:Please do - there are many more questions to be answered: and as many questions to make us understand this issue will be helpful. sarmy:Well, my direct answer is NO; albeit we can gain some principles from that passage if we begin to read from verse 7 to 12 inclusive. Let me explain why I'm not so inclined to directly use Mal. 3:8-10 to push the agenda of tithe. (1) verse 8 - this is a pivotal question that God asks every believer, and it is not limited to just the Jews under the old covenant. The question is: "Can a man rob God?" Rather than try to clobber someone else with that verse, what I do is sit down in my closet and seriously ask myself this question: "My dear pilgrim.1, in what ways have you been robbing God?" The answers were refreshing and I had to repent accordingly: (a) we rob God when we fail to give Him the glory due to His Name [Psa. 29:2] (b) we rob God when we fail to give God the things that belong to Him [Mark 12:17] (c) we also rob God by giving inferior and worthless service to Him [Mal. 1:8 & 13] And God Himself answers that question directly in verse 8 ~~ (d) "Wherein have we robbed thee? In tithes and offerings" [Mal. 3:8] (2) The problem now is this: if we accept that in the NT we can give "offerings" (whether 'freewill offerings' or any other type), is it true that we should give "tithes" as Christians? I believe that we are encouraged to give tithes - that's why I discussed the subject from 1 Cor. 9:13-14 and Numbers 18:21. If the Jews had failed to keep God's ordinances in Malachi 3:7, are we any better if we fail to keep what the Lord had ordained in 1 Cor. 9:14? In other words, if the Jews had 'robbed' God (metaphorically) in Malachi 3, are we any better when we fail like them to give what He has "ordained" in 1 Cor. 9:14? |
| Re: To Tithe or Not to Tithe? by pilgrim1(f): 11:46am On Oct 09, 2008 |
@sarmy, (3) However, it is absolutely wrong for any pastor to call down any curse upon any Christian for not giving. . . ~ tithes or 10% (or any other %) ~ offerings ~ freewill offerings ~ vows ~ donations ~ contributions ~ voluntary gifts ~ fund raising dole . . . or any other types of giving! It is absolutely wrong for anyone to force the Christian to give anything at all, and let me share why I'm persuaded about this being so: A. The Covenant of the Christian believer God has not called the believer into a covenant of blessings and curses. That was what obtained under the old covenant of the Mosaic Law; for when Moses pronounced the Law unto Israel, he declared: "I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing. ." [Deut. 30:19]. The old covenant is not applied upon the life of the Christian believer, because it was ratified by the blood of bulls and goats (Heb. 9:19-20) - this blood ratifying was not able to take away our sins (Heb. 10:4). However (and this is the big part that those pastors miss out), the new covenant promises better things that the old covenant of curses (Heb. 12:24). How can God place a curse on those He Himself had sanctified with the Blood of His own Son?!? Yes, there are Christians who fail in many things - but because of the Blood of Christ, God is on a covenant where He promised that there is NO CONDEMNATION to the Christian (Romans 8:1). Let me humbly say this (God cover my mouth): 'Any pastor who tries to place a curse on any Christian for anything at all is simply misunderstanding the new covenant power of Jesus' Blood.' Beloved, you do not ever have to feel condemned, bitter or lose your peace when a "pastor" cries out such curses on you - if you are a Christian, you are not under the old covenant of 'blessings and curses'; rather, you are under the New Covenant of Jesus' Blood that speaks better things on your behalf! B. The Priesthood of the Christian believer We have dealt with this earlier, and noted that the Christian life is based upon the priesthood of Melchizedek! What does this mean for the Christian? Very simply this: (a) the weakness in the Levitical priesthood is that it was made without an oath where men cannot continue in that office because of death (Hebrews 7:21 & 23); (b) the veracity of the Melchizedek priesthood is that it was established upon the power of an endless life (Hebrews 7:16). How is it that "pastors" who preach the New Covenant of Christ are still making the huge mistake of calling the weakness of the Levitical priesthood upon "Melchizedek Christians"?!?  God did not call us to a fellowship where the priesthood is based upon "death" - rather, He called us into fellowship with His own Son, Jesus Christ, who is testified to be the living perpetually!!C. The Power of the Christian Tithes As we have seen, the real intent of the tithes is that it points to the "best part" or "hallowed part" of all our offerings to God (Num. 18:29). Many people who do not realize this are the ones who quickly want to call down curses upon Christians for not tithing - and what this means, is that they are making the very same mistake for which God rebuked the priests in Malachi 1:6-7!! How did this happen? Let's see: A son honoureth his father, and a servant his master: if then I be a Father, where is mine honour? and if I be a Master, where is my fear? saith the LORD of hosts unto you, O priests, that despise my name. And ye say, Wherein have we despised thy name? Ye offer polluted bread upon mine altar; and ye say, Wherein have we polluted thee? In that ye say, The table of the LORD is contemptible. Can you just picture what is going on here?!? Can you imagine that the accusation is directly at the priests - and why? Because they ~ - despised His Name - pronounced His Table as "contemptible" - offered polluted bread on His altar In NT terms, when "pastors" offer polluted bread, they are directly despising God's Name. How? Because, a misleading message that confuses believers and make them bitter and rebellious is directly referred to as 'offering polluted bread and treating God's Word as contemptible.' This is the situation that happened earlier on in Israel's history where the two sons of Samuel were abusing the priesthood and making people to rebel against His Word. I could add a few other things, but the point I am trying to make is that I do not think it is healthy to use Malachi 3 or any other verse in the Bible (OT or NT) to either force, cajole, manipulate, compel, or demand Christians to give anything! Even when Paul noted that the Lord had ordained this very ministry for Christians in 1 Cor. 9:14, he did not curse the Corinthians for failing to obey that ordinance; but rather set an example of appealing to their consciences and understanding by referring to the principle of Numbers 18:21. For pastors who are calling down curses upon any Christian, I sincerely pray that their eyes may be opened more to see the covenant, priesthood, and power of the Christian calling. God bless you plenty. |
| Re: To Tithe or Not to Tithe? by pilgrim1(f): 11:54am On Oct 09, 2008 |
Hi again @KunleOshob, KunleOshob:I am grateful that at least someone can disagree with me on this subject. The problem with pilgrim.1 is that she is not one of those that will refer to tithes as "false doctrine" when God Himself nowhere referred to it as such. Although you may have read me and come off more confused than you have gained, I was actually hoping that you would directly point out what Paul meant by "Even so" in 1 Cor. 9:14, and what he possibly was referring to in verse 13 of that same passage when he said "Do you not know that. . ?" Rather than deal with them, you only returned some shakara and gragra pronouncing it as "illogical" - and for all that, I don't see where you enunciated those verses. If you cannot deal with what Paul was referring to in verse 13, you will never be able to understand verse 14 either. The rest are excuses which I have dealth with already; and if you have not been able to enunciate otherwise, I would leave the matter in God's hands to open my eyes to further matters. It has always been my prayer that God may lead me to speak only that which He gives us in His Word - and that is why I will never call it anything He has not called it. With much love in Christ, blessings. |
| Re: To Tithe or Not to Tithe? by pilgrim1(f): 12:14pm On Oct 09, 2008 |
@anonimi, anonimi:Unfortunately, quite to the contrary of your submissions, I have not moved away from tithes and have only expounded more on the subject. The reason why I came back detailed in my response was because the few questions I offered were largely ignored and people just went on making excuses of whether Abraham tithed once, or Levi took tithe by a Law, or whether Malachi 3 was a problem or not. Such things were scuttling round the real issues about tithes; and after dealing with them, I also came back to comprehensively addressed the question of whether or not tithes were obligatory. If you thought I had not dealt directly with that, what then was I talking about in this reposte when I stated: ______________________________________________________________ 'I don't think you have noticed how many people ackowledge that tithes have nothing to do with the idea of ~ DEMAND, COERSION, COMPULSION, FORCE, CAJOLING, MANIPULATION, INDOCTRINATION, . . . or any other ONOMATOMANIA!! ______________________________________________________________ There was not one place where I tried to make tithes obligatory for the Christian; and my recent inputs should have made my position clear for anyone to see that NOTHING is made obligatory for the Christian! Even the argument of some people that they should give "freewill offerings" is a farce, because there is no verse in the New Testament where you find that word! The idea that "other types of giving" are encouraged is a lazy way of looking at this profoudn subject, because those who are so lazy to study God's Word are too much in a haste to accuse others and come away bitter. That is not my problem, nor do I wish anyone to remain in that position - and that is why I took time to set the issue straight by looking at it in detail. If people cannot deal with the issues I raised particularly about 1 Corinthains 9:13-14, then it is no surprise that this subject continues to elude them. And sir, being elusive on any verse of the Bible is not the same thing as dealing with it directly. anonimi:True, we are not required to give anything! If anyone wants to give, let them do so and not make a doctrine out of accusing others who tithe. Just as people refer to tithes as "false doctrine" when God never called it such, we should all realize that God does not REQUIRE anyone to obey what He has ORDAINED (1 Cor. 9:14)! anonimi:Sorry, I was not discussing any pastor's "fraud" - my eyes were on the Bible, and not a denominational bulletin. anonimi:Not at all. I could be very firm - and have stated why I take that position. People who pretend they know God's Word on this subject and accuse others of manipulation or thieves just because they mention the word "tithes" are not helping themselves or others. Such an attitude is unhealthy. I appreciate people disagreeing with my submissions - but not when they try to argue their position by what some pastor said here, there or anywhere. anonimi:Lol, why don't you guys simply open your Bibles and share? What is all this complaining about when the same misrepresentations are being poured out derisively from some of us who are deliberately calling tithes the very thing God never onced called it in the bible? anonimi:Thank you. As you can see, anyone who reads and knows WHY a pastor cannot call a curse on a believer will be able to identify 419 "pastors". Is that not clear enough? Shalom. |
| Re: To Tithe or Not to Tithe? by pilgrim1(f): 12:29pm On Oct 09, 2008 |
@All, Just so you don't misunderstand what my aim is, let me outline them: (a) I'm least interested in what any pastor anywhere has turned tithes into. Rather than waste my time condemning anyone, I would rather share what I see in God's Word. leave those men alone and let God deal with them directly. (b) It is not in the least of my interest to be engulfed in quarrels with any pastor; so there is just no way I would become bitter just because someone said something I don't agree with during Church service. That is not helping me or anyone else. (c) Now, if I'm going to help myself or anyone else, I should be willing to consider everything that others are saying. Is it possible that while we think we know it all, we might be unfairly accusing pastors on the basis of our own ignorance? Perhaps we may feel that they are wrong in certain places (as I shared above on malachi 3); but rather than slobber them and reveal my own ungodliness, why don't I rather share why I may not agree with them? (d) For instance, sarmy asked me a pointed question about using Malachi 3 to force people to tithe. I shared with him why my answer is NO; and opened up a few reasons why I don't think anyone is correct to curse any Christian. It is not in my place to castigate any pastor who does this - because by castigating them, I am doing the very same thing for which I accuse them! (e) I think it is more helpful for people to simply share, debate healthily, avoid uncouth accusations against anyone, and contribute questions that constructively critique our submissions. If this is not helpful, pilgrim.1 is not in the habit of castigating any pastor; for it is not in my place to judge anything before that time when Christ will do so (1 Cor. 4:5). God bless us all. |
| Re: To Tithe or Not to Tithe? by olabowale(m): 12:59pm On Oct 09, 2008 |
@Pilgrim.1: Do you see in "God's word," where it is permissable to deride the "Catholic faith?" If you did not see it, then know that you have been a disingenuous "Protestant," all along. And everyone knows your disdain for the catholic sect of Christianity, all to well. Now below is your last email to me; It will show that you can only give it, but can take it! Re: Olabowale of nairaland.Wednesday, October 8, 2008 5:55 PM From: This sender is DomainKeys verified "Pilgrim.1_NL" <p_romanio@yahoo.com>Add sender to Contacts To: aqeedahfirst@yahoo.comJust something more: Since you have nothing other than your penchant to deride others, none of your emails will henceforth reach me - as I don't have any interest in such an adventure. Cheers. I just want those people who you seem to be "local champion," to, see that you are not a champ at all. Where is or are the "secret(s)" of Islam, that you have been suggesting that you will provide to those who email you? I did and it was a disappointment. Finally, those of you who are fortunate enough to know about these secrets from Pilgrim.1, please share them with us. Afterall, you, as christians should not care the least about the integrity of Islam and muslims. If you do, then the best thing is that you should not remain in Christendom, but quickly convert to Islam. The same Pilgrim.1 who was never shy from posting falsehood about Islam. Don't about what she posted about Muslims. Afterall, muslims are supposed to be divided to 73 sects and only one will never go to Hell. Now the same woman is shy about giving us the big secrets! maybe she is collecting email addresses for the Christian mailing lists to the Muslims. And just that you know, when i receive from them, the Christian pundits, that it, I have going to give them the hardest times of their lives! I will ask questions about Trinity, and Jesus' lack of complete knowledge; He did not know the "time of the hour," remember? |
| Re: To Tithe or Not to Tithe? by JJYOU: 1:09pm On Oct 09, 2008 |
olabowale: |
| Re: To Tithe or Not to Tithe? by KunleOshob(m): 1:22pm On Oct 09, 2008 |
@Pilgim 1 corinthians 9:13,14 was clearly inferring to church offerings and definitely not tithes, i belieive it is mischievious and manipulative to try and draw a parallel. offerings is free will while tithes is not, i see you have a way with using words to distort facts. you keep on hammering that free will is not stated in the new testament, the fact is this is an english expression that aptly describes the kind of offerings required of christians. Whether "free will" or "give freelly" it means the same thing so stop hanging on to semantics and address issues. Also the statement that God never described tithing as false you keep on repeating as been thoroughly addressed and the reason is clear even to primary school student. As long as you cannot not provide any scripture that instructs or suggests clearly that we should tithe as christians in the new testament and the tithe is defined to be the fraudulent version we have being practised today then i don't think you have a point. I have consistently said i have no problem with giving generously to the church whatever percentage of your income, what i find distasteful is the indoctrination of tithing into christianity ( for material benefit) through corruption of the scripture to satisfy the greed of some preachers who are not satisfied with the offerings they are receiving. TITHING AS NO PLACE IN CHRISTIANITY UNDER ANY FORM OR SHAPE. and that is the point i am tryin to make. pastor should stop deceiving the children of God and allow them to decide what they want to give. If the pastor is not satified then he should take up a Job or business like apostle paul did who was probably the greatest of the apostles. |
| Re: To Tithe or Not to Tithe? by sarmy(m): 1:30pm On Oct 09, 2008 |
pilgrim.1:I've learnt one or two things from you all. you and kunle are very firm on where you stand and that's good for this discussion, we need to see things from different perspectives, at times due to ones passion, it may lead to castigating others, but I think all we are saying is for God's word (The TRUTH) to prevail for HIS Glory either for or against. Shalom |
| Re: To Tithe or Not to Tithe? by KunleOshob(m): 1:55pm On Oct 09, 2008 |
Notice this telling bit of history from the Encyclopaedia Britannica (1963, volume 22, page 253, ‘TITHES’). “Tithes in Christendom—The earliest authentic example of anything like a law of the State enforcing payment appears to occur in the capitularies [Ecclesiasticals] of Charlemagne at the end of the 8th or beginning of the 9th century. Tithes were, by that enactment, to be applied to the maintenance of the bishop, clergy, the poor, and the fabric of the church. In the course of time the principle of payment of tithes was extended far beyond its original intention. Thus, they became transferable to laymen and saleable like ordinary property, despite the injunctions of the third Lateran Council; and they became payable out of sources of income [not just farming and herding, but other trades and occupations and salaries paid in the form of money] not originally tithable.” |
| Re: To Tithe or Not to Tithe? by KunleOshob(m): 1:59pm On Oct 09, 2008 |
And this is how tithes was smuggled into christianity  The Catholic Church knows its own history. Here is how tithing got back into the Church after being absent for nearly five centuries:“ As the Church expanded and various institutions arose, it became necessary to make laws which would insure the proper and permanent support of the clergy. The payment of tithes was adopted from the Old Law… The earliest positive legislation on the subject seems to be contained in the letter of the bishops assembled at Tours in 567 and the [canons] of the Council of Macon in 585.”—The Catholic Encyclopaedia. |
| Re: To Tithe or Not to Tithe? by obinna5000(m): 2:10pm On Oct 09, 2008 |
@KunleOshob Uhmmmmmmmmmmmmm!!!!!!!!!!! Interesting. Just because I said 'interesting' does not mean I agree with u 100%. I know that u despise pentecostal churches, that is why u r talking about not paying tithes. Not all pentecostal churches are bad. Tell me which Christian denomination that does not pay tithe. It is not good pay tithe but it is good to be drunkard. Is this ur policy? |
| Re: To Tithe or Not to Tithe? by pilgrim1(f): 2:12pm On Oct 09, 2008 |
@KunleOshob, KunleOshob:That’s alright – at least that’s your view, and it’s well appreciated. There’s just one thing though: even when someone may assert that 1 Cor. 9:13-14 was referring to church offerings, the basic questions still remain unanswered. If I may help you find them in more simple terms, here’s what I was asking that you help us identify: (A) What did the apostle mean when he said: “Do ye not know that they which minister about holy things live of the things of the temple?” (v. 13) What particularly was the apostle pointing to about – ● “they which minister about” ● “the holy things” ● “the temple”? In other words, does this have anything to do with the OT or not? ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ (B) What did the apostle mean when he said: “Even so hath the Lord ordained that they which preach the gospel should live of the gospel.” (v. 14) What particularly was the apostle pointing to when he stated: ● “Even so. . .” ● “hath the Lord ordained” ● “they which preach the Gospel” ● “should live of the Gospel”? What exactly I’m looking for in your answers are the following: 1. whether there is any connection with the OT in verse 13 2. whether there was no such connection in any way in verse 13 3. If there were not such connection, why did the apostle ask: “Do ye not know that. . .” and then goes on to mention both the ‘temple’ and the ‘altar’? I appreciate where you stand on this matters. But I have often shared that it is not in place to be bitter or use slobbering accusations against anyone for teaching tithes or other offerings. I know a lot of people merely make assertions and are not interested in looking closely at what the Bible teaches - and that is why I approach this issue by first asking questions. Anyone can come and make assertions. But what happens when they cannot answer basic questions about the verses where they set their ideas upon? If after your assertions and mine, a few questions are asked to call our attention to the verses we are discussing and we cannot answer them directly, what then are we doing? The result has always been the case - everytime someone has no answers for his/her presumptions, they resort to bitterness, wrangling and uncouth slobberings against other people. That is not what God has called me to do; and if I'm not going to provide direct answers, I would rather pass on than descend lower than my station. |
| Re: To Tithe or Not to Tithe? by pilgrim1(f): 2:12pm On Oct 09, 2008 |
KunleOshob:Then who FORCED Abraham to tithe to Melchizedek? KunleOshob:Would it not be more helpful to show us where I have done so by answering questions directly instead of always seeking to castigate others? KunleOshob:If you find it in the NT, please post it. The complaining is not helping your arguments - just simply post the NT verse, thank you. KunleOshob:I have addressed the issue in detail, please scroll up and share. The only reason why I mentioned the "freewill offerings" is to help us confront our hypocrisy directly that while we may kick against tithes, the same "freewill offerings" we use are not mentioned one single time in the NT! So, if someone accuses you of peddling a false doctrine by the term "freewill offerings" when it is not a NT term, why would you pick offence at that? Go back and read the teaching of freewill offerings and see how very misled you are! Freewill offering(s) = used only in the OT Tithe(s) used in both the OT and NT Why are people so happy to diss tithes (OT and NT) when the word "freewill offerings" does not appear once in the NT? That is simply hypocrisy, because what you call "freewill offerings" is a totally different thing in the Bible! Please calm down and go back and check carefully. That is not to say that I do not believe that people can give freely - I do. But you're making so much about tithes as a matter of compulsion, and that is why I'm asking you directly: who compelled Abraham to tithe to melchizedek? Is it not true that Abraham gave tithes to Melchizedek "freely"? KunleOshob:Is it a hard thing for you to stop accusing the term where God never so accused it? Why is it that non-tithers cannot simply speak about this matter until they have revealed their bitter hearts? Where is the grace in that sort of attitude? if God never accused that term, do not try to keep harping on it to mislead people. Whatever any pastor or MOG has turned it into, we can boldly and happily share the truth about this matter witout recourse to such accusations. I am happy to do so, and I hope after now you can find the calmness to look at the Word and not what someone is making you feel about it. I am begging, dear brother. KunleOshob:I know. . . I know. That is simply what you are persuaded about, not so? Okay, I hear. But others see a few things you have ignored: is it too much that they ask questions as well? KunleOshob:I don't think a pastor who has the integrity to teach the real purpose of tithes is deceiving anyone. If a child of God decides to tithe because he/she knows the value of such a ministry, what is the quarrel there? There are many pastors I know who are in very good jobs and they both teach tithes as well as give their own tithes to the Church where they minister. I know a few others among that group who refuse to take any salaries even though they also tithe as well. You see, just because a few men are messing about here and there on this matter, it does not mean that others who have the integrity to teach these matters should therefore be called theives and manipulators. That is quite unfair, and it shows we have no fear of God in our own hearts. What if we stand before Christ on that day and He shows us how wrong we have been to falsely accuse pastors - even those pastors who teach tithes but do not take wages themselves? What then would be your own reaction? Dear KunleOshob, I am not patronizing you or anyone on this subject; but let me share my heart with you. Just imagine that I, pilgrim.1, am wrong in everything I have shared. What do I stand to lose if I never accused anyone with slobbers? But what would your case be if you discover that you were also wrong, but God shows you that accusing others was not His plan for you - especially when you don't know every single pastor's life who teaches about tithes? Let us help ourselves here: we can talk about this issue without accusing anyone. We may both be right on a few things, or wrong on everything. Whatever is the case, we can help our own hearts to be devoid of ill-feelings toward anyone. As the apostle said: "And herein do I exercise myself, to have always a conscience void of offence toward God, and toward men." ~~ Acts 24:16 God bless you dear brother. |
| Re: To Tithe or Not to Tithe? by obinna5000(m): 2:17pm On Oct 09, 2008 |
@KunleOshob Uhmmmmmmmmmmmmm!!!!!!!!!!! Interesting. Undecided Just because I said 'interesting' does not mean I agree with u 100%. I know that u despise pentecostal churches, that is why u r talking about not paying tithes. Not all pentecostal churches are bad. Tell me which Christian denomination that does not pay tithe. It is not good pay tithe but it is good to be drunkard. Is this ur policy? |
| Re: To Tithe or Not to Tithe? by KunleOshob(m): 2:42pm On Oct 09, 2008 |
*I am now convinced that Pilgrim and i cannot possibly be speaking the same language(english) else i cannot rationalize how she still manages to argue so much when that facts are soo obvious and has been stated clearly in this forum. You never address any issues, you just dance round them in circles. *Abraham's tithe was free will not commanded or demanded like today's version. *Free will is free will so stop trying to make a terminology out of it *Thirdly if you cannot come up with any clear cut instructon in the new testament requiring christians to tithe, i suggest you rest your case cos i wouldn't continue a discussion were i am not getting any subsatnce from( only shaft) Look my dear if you want to tithe, you are free to nobody is stopping you and there is nothing wrong with it, the only thing that is wrong is the widespread deception about it which most people are ignorant about. I don't know why you are so bothered self after all everything i have said about tithing is based on scripture and the facts are very obvious. Do you have a propblem with people knowing the truth about this false doctrine  |
| Re: To Tithe or Not to Tithe? by KunleOshob(m): 2:54pm On Oct 09, 2008 |
obinna5000:The fact that i drink does not translate to me being a drunkard and even if you accuse me of being a drunkard i really don't care after all Jesus Christ was also accused of being one luke 7 : 34 The Son of Man,[a] on the other hand, feasts and drinks, and you say, ‘He’s a glutton and a drunkard, and a friend of tax collectors and other sinners!’ so if i drink, i am being christ like on the other hand there is record of Jesus ever paying, receiving or preaching tithes. even the matthew 23:23 and the luke 11:42 fraudulently used to confuse christians that Jesus okayed tithing was not directed a christians but pharisees who were under the law. |
| Re: To Tithe or Not to Tithe? by KunleOshob(m): 3:11pm On Oct 09, 2008 |
The Tithe war The Tithe War in Ireland (1831-36) refers to a series of periodic skirmishes and violent incidents connected to resistance to the obligation of Catholics in Ireland to pay tithes for the upkeep of the Church of Ireland. The first clash of the Tithe war took place on 3 March 1831 in Graiguenamanagh, county Kilkenny when a force of 120 armed police forcibly took possession of cattle belonging to a Roman Catholic priest, in lieu of Tithes. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tithe_War The British Government was alarmed by several aspects of this massacre: by the fact that the order to fire was given by an anglican clergyman, by the pittance involved in relation to the bloodshed, and by the fact that the people had withstood several volleys and at least one charge by the troops without breaking. Tithe War is the forgotten story of almost 100,000 tithe-paying farmers and landowners whose fight for a just and equitable end to an archaic tax spanned the inter-war years of the 20th century. The tithe system brought ruin to thousands of small farming families, already in the depths of agricultural depression, and opened a bitter and lasting gulf between rural parishes and their anglican clergy. It affected many parts of England and Wales indiscriminately, but it was the Great Tithes of East Anglia and the hop tithes of Kent that gave rise to the leaders of the tithe-payers’ revolt. They took on the Establishment long before it was fashionable or easy, and their persistence and dedication to the cause is only now being recognised. |
| Re: To Tithe or Not to Tithe? by pilgrim1(f): 3:13pm On Oct 09, 2008 |
@KunleOshob, KunleOshob:I did not seek anywhere to rationalize anything - and that was why I asked questions, waited several pages after you guys roundly ignored them, then I went on to deal with them in detail, before asking a few further questions - which again you have ignored with excuses. If you had any substance to offer, what could be simpler than doing so by showing HOW, WHERE and WHY I might have been mistaken? Not that I'm seeking any applause for correctness, because I said several times that we might be wrong; but was it too much to forebear and ask simple questions which should have been answered after I came back to set them in simple outlines? KunleOshob:Okay, I hear. Was that what I was doing in the following: ~ directly addressing your question here ~ discussing your question in detail here directly from Scripture ~ dealing directly with a few common objections here ~ addressing questions following the above consequently ~ further questions directly answered subsequently ~ yet again other objectives answered directly If I was "dancing around" in all those answers, I forebear in hope that you would calm down and point out where I was mistaken in all the details I offered. The one thing I noticed though, is your perculiar manner of ducking questions yourself and making these assertions against my entries. It's all good, though. . . as I gain more more people say things which are not true against my submissions. KunleOshob:Nobody has demanded me to give tithes. Why then are you going about forcing your own ideas on others? KunleOshob:That does not answer the simple question I offered that you should go and study it. KunleOshob:I'm so sorry that you've missed the whole point by many miles! WHERE did I ever say that we as Christians are REQUIRED to give anything, KunleOshob? If you're so driven to look for a "requirement", you would never have seen me address that issue repeatedly already! KunleOshob:Kunle bros, if "there is nothing wrong with it" by your own admission, WHY are you so bitter about tithing? KunleOshob:Nope, your calling tithe a "false doctrine" is not based on Scripture but rather on your own bitterness because of what you have heard from others. KunleOshob:I am very interested in letting people know that false ideas being paraded by people who have no answers to simple questions cannot be called"Scripture". Bitterness from men who accuse everyone else cannot be called Scripture. Accusing God's Word of what He never called tithing is not 'Scripture'. These matters invite my discussions to point these things out so that no root of bitterness will pervade us in our day. Shalom. |
| Re: To Tithe or Not to Tithe? by KunleOshob(m): 3:18pm On Oct 09, 2008 |
Tithes according to wikipedia A tithe (from Old English teogoþa "tenth" is a one-tenth part of something, paid as a (usually) voluntary contribution or as a tax or levy, usually to support a Christian religious organization. Today, tithes (or tithing) are normally voluntary and paid in cash, cheques, or stocks, whereas historically tithes could be paid in kind, such as agricultural products. Several European countries operate a formal process linked to the tax system allowing some churches to assess tithes."Tithing" also has unrelated economic and juridical senses, dating back to the Early Middle Ages. See "Tithing (division)". Some interpretations of Biblical teachings conclude that although tithing was practiced extensively in the Old Testament, it was never practiced or taught within the first-century Church. Instead the New Testament scriptures are seen as teaching the concept of "freewill offerings" as a means of supporting the church (see I Corinthians 16:2 and II Corinthians 9:7). Also, some of the earliest groups sold everything they had and held the proceeds in common to be used for the furtherance of the Gospel (Acts 2:44-47, Acts 4:34-35). The book of Acts contains the account of a man and wife who were living in one of these groups. They sold a piece of property but donated only part of the selling price to the church and were struck dead for lying to God (Acts 5:1-10). It is thought that tithes were not adopted by the Catholic, Christian church for over seven centuries. Although initially rejected, they were mentioned in councils at Tours in 567 and at Mâcon in 585. They were formally recognized under Pope Adrian I in 787. Tithing in Christian churches today is frequently preached from the pulpit, but denominations and sects view tithing differently. Some view tithing as only clearly required in the Old Testament, and consider it to be a practice that has no place in modern Christianity. Others believe that tithing is still in effect. source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tithes |
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