₦airaland Forum

@Pilgrim
2. There are other terms even in the Old Testament that point to "tithes" -

            ~ 'all the best part' (Num. 18:29)

            ~ 'the heave offering' (Num. 18:24)

            ~ 'the hallowed part' (Num. 18:29)

            ~ 'the increase of the threshing floor' (Num. 18:30)

            ~ 'the increase of the winepress' (Num. 18:30)

            ~ 'the hallowed things' (Deut. 26:13, KJV, AMP)
               'the sacred portion' (NIV)
 
Please read all those references so that it is clear to you that I was not quoting them out of contexts. It is not the actual term we use that is important, whether ~

                  "tenths"
                  "tithes"
                  "hallowed"
                  "sacred"
                  "best"
                  "heave"

What is important is the real import of what it means. The moment we come back clogged with "1000000%" or "how many percent", we simply miss the real value of what God is pointing our hearts to.

Thanks, how I wish they preach it like this in many churches, I personally will be glad to tithe, or may be I've actually be tithing but did not call it that name.

Remain blessed

As usual pilgrim is dancing round in circles, sarmy asked a specific question about why the apostles and jesus never preached tithes in the new testament and she is answering by using examples in the old testment that have no direct bearing on the question asked

~ 'all the best part' (Num. 18:29)

           ~ 'the heave offering' (Num. 18:24)

           ~ 'the hallowed part' (Num. 18:29)

           ~ 'the increase of the threshing floor' (Num. 18:30)

           ~ 'the increase of the winepress' (Num. 18:30)

           ~ 'the hallowed things' (Deut. 26:13, KJV, AMP)
              'the sacred portion' (NIV)

How does all the above unrelated scripture answer sarmys question Did the apostles ever use any of the above quoted scripture when they preached about giving??
Pilgrim just admit it tithes under any form or shape as no place in christianity it is an absolutely FALSE doctrine

@JJYOU: « #1380 on: Yesterday at 03:44:04 PM »  

i would revert back to my normal custom of ignoring you because i don't argue with people with your mindset. you are talking like a child and not a man.

Child babbles. Young people can make sense! Grown people do not have to be always correct. But in your case, I think you believe that you are above the law of God, the way we see it in everyday in ordinary people. If you think that as a muslim, I will not at least correct, the falsehood presented by anyone about Islam, when I know better, you have another thing coming. I often write to those televangelists and website hosts who tell lies about islam. Forget about th muslims. It is not impossible for muslims to be deviants, making mistakes.

you don't go about insulting or fighting women not even in the name of your so called religion. surprise surprise you don't even need to have religion to know that

Surprise surprise, I do not strike women, hard or lightly. It is not a crime or abbormination to challenge a person to speak the truth. Man or woman, especially when their lies are so blatant! Thats what I and we did with Pilgrim.1! It is your type, I take it that the day a woman push you over the edge, you will lash out by striking her. I on the other hand do not bottle anything inside.

if you knew where i am, you would not talk about where i live now. living in america has not changed you.

And I long to move back home, and make Nigeria my permanent nation of residence! And I really do not care about where you are now, as long as you are satisfied at your condition!

i am shocked a mole person can spell the word saucy let alone use it. you have your 4 wives and you still go about listening to some women talk saucy to you.

You don't know the meaning of Saucy, do you?

God help you.  you need Jesus in your life quick

I ask for God's help, always. I have Jesu, already, in the same way that I have all the prophets.
Jesus and I have God Almighty. The God that is One and is always the One to be needed at all times.


@KunleOshob: I could never agree with you more than I do, now, on what you wrote above about our esteemed "Pundit," Pilgrim.1! She dances too much that you wonder if the band is not tired of playing for her.

A New Law

"For the priesthood being changed, there is made of necessity a change also of the law" Heb 7:12

"In that he saith, A new covenant he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth & waxeth old is ready to vanish away" Heb 7:13

"For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Isreal after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people:" Heb 8:10

These show us that a new law was always on the plan of God. Because the old one could not make men perfect before God.

What then is this new law? I show you the law of liberty.

"Who is made(Jesus), not after the law of a carnal commandment, but after the power of an endlesslife"[/[/b]i] Heb 7:16

[i]"For the law of the [b]Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death" Heb 8:2

"But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law." Gal 5:22-23

"Now the Lord is that Spirit:and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty" 2Cor 3:17

These scritures show also that the Spirit of the Lord and that new law are inseperably linked. This makes further sense when we consider the promise in Heb 8:10 above, together with the reality of having recieved the Spirit of God 'poured out on all flesh' found in Joel 2:28. We can then say that we have recieved the Spirit of life in Christ also promised in Heb 8:2, also quoted above.

"But whosoever looketh into the perfect law of liberty, " James 1:25

There is yet a judgement according to this new law.
Mnh, sobering thought.

"So speak ye and so do, as they that shall be judged by the law of liberty" James 2:20

Under the law of liberty, the foremost obligation is love-love for God and love for man. Jesus reiterieted it in Matt 22:37-40 and again he hit upon these while adressing the pharisees in Luke 11:42

Under this law too, there are principles;Faith without works is dead, Grace over works, Mercy over judgement,give and it will come back to you,walking by the Spirit, Remission of sins by One, Love in deed and in truth, etc

How may we observe this law?

One may say that love is a weak, directionless,all-comers commandment to guide us,but not if we have recieved the Spirit of God which inscribes the laws of God in our hearts.

Paul further calls it the law of the mind,Rom 7:23 Here he shows how this law struggles for  preeminence with the set ideologies of the old law.
But the law of God triumps; It has the ability to make us become, by an instinctive knowing placed there by the spirit of God.

As they understood and were faced with making  daily judgements based upon the law of liberty, here's how they observed the law of liberty:

"Whoso hath this world's good, and seethh his brother have need, and shutteth up his bowels of compassion from him, how dwelleth the love of God in him" 1john 3:17

"All things are lawful but not all thing are expedient, edifyeth(build up,us or others)"[/i]1Cor 10:23

[i]"If a brother or sister is naked and destitute of daily food and one of you say: Depart in peace,be warm and filled, what doth it profit?" James 2:15-16

"But take heed lest by any means this liberty of yours become a stumbling block to them that are weak, " 1Cor 8:9

"Brethren, ye have been called unto liberty; only use not liberty as an occassion to flesh, but by love serve one another" girl 5:13

",  or for maliciousness" 1 Pet 2:16

People, this law is not greivous, because the love of God has been shed abroad our hearts by the Holy Ghost. We have both the will and ability to do the pleasures of our God.

"Beloved, let us love one another: for love is of God; and everyone that loveth is born of God, and knoweth God" 1 John 4:7

Read more: Blameless in love Eph 1:4, 1 Thes 3:13, Love edifies the body(church) of Christ[/i]Eph 4:16, 1 Thes 5:13, [i]Our works measure our love 1 John 4:16-21, Love is the nature of God, our nature 1 John 5:1-4, Covers offences and sins 1 pet 4:8, Greatest commandment(again!) 1 Cor13

Have a happy weekend,ya'all.  

Blessings!

@KunleOshob

Bro, whats that translation you have've been using? It's beautiful.

FifiO:
@KunleOshob

Bro, whats that translation you have've been using? It's beautiful.

I normally copy from this site http://www.bible.com/ there are several translations/versions of the bible there so i just choose the translation that best expresses what i am trying to say

@KunleOshob,

KunleOshob:
As usual pilgrim is dancing round in circles, sarmy asked a specific question about why the apostles and jesus never preached tithes in the new testament and she is answering by using examples in the old testment that have no direct bearing on the question asked

Reminder:

1. [list][list]

pilgrim.1](1) But the word “tithes” or “tithing” is not found in the NT.

This is one of the basic mistakes people use as arguments for not understanding the subject. However, the words ‘tithe’ (Matt. 23:23), ‘tithes’ (Luke 18:12 & Hebrews 7:6, 8, 9), and ‘tenth/tenth parts’ (Hebrews 7:2 & 4) appear in the NT as referenced (using the KJV). Of these references, the first (Matt. 23:23) shows that it was not condemned even by the Lord; while the second set of references discuss this issue on various principles.[/quote][/list][/list]


2. Reminder:

[list][list]

pilgrim.1:
Okay, I hear. Was that what I was doing in the following:

      ~ directly addressing your question here

      ~ discussing your question in detail here directly from Scripture

      ~ dealing directly with a few common objections here

      ~ addressing questions following the above consequently

      ~ further questions directly answered subsequently

       ~ yet again other objectives answered directly

If I was "dancing around" in all those answers, I forebear in hope that you would calm down and point out where I was mistaken in all the details I offered. The one thing I noticed though, is your perculiar manner of ducking questions yourself and making these assertions against my entries. It's all good, though. . . as I gain more more people say things which are not true against my submissions.

[/list][/list]

3. Reminder:

[list][list]

But is that not the very thing that several times had been highlighted by several contributors already? Reminder (point #4) :

          _____________________________________________________

            . . . So, if someone is looking for exactly 10%, they have missed
            the very essence of what tithing points to –
            which is the ‘best/hallowed part’ of our offerings.
            This is why the NT does not stipulate an exact figure,
            but simply says that it should be ‘according to what a man has
            purposed in his heart’ (2 Cor. 9:7).
          _____________________________________________________

[/list][/list]


4. [url=http://]Reminder[/url]:

[list][list]

[quote author=sarmy:
Let's agree, Paul was refering to tithe in 1 Cor 9:13 but why was it so hard to mention the name directly as in Heb, that was mostly about the presthood of Jesus, not excaltly or directly asking Christians to pay tithe.

Paul was not bogged down with a particular percentage - [size=14pt]and I have often referenced an discussed this at length[/size]. The moment someone is looking for the word "tithe", the issue will be lost upon such a person and they will be pursuing calculations based on figures and percentages! That is not the way God has asked us to look at the value of tithes. I have already shared that the real import of tithes is simply "the best part" or "hallowed part" of all our offerings (see above).

[/list][/list]


Lol. . . @KunleOshob,
My dear lovable bros, I have not been dancing around anything as you can see. I believe that we can all dicuss and eschew any feeling of disaffection. I do not mind people making untrue statements about me or my submissions; but I often wonder what those people gain. Extremum and hubris are not healthy positions to assume - I have often said. God bless you.

@Pilgrim

Are you trying to confuse us here?

KunleOshob:
@Pilgrim

Are you trying to confuse us here?

Not at all. If anyone thought I was trying to do so, they would have said the same thing. One thing I wanted to call your attention to was the fact that making false allegations against people is unhealthy. If there was something that was not clear to you, I would be glad to point it out. But to deliberately allege what you did is quite an extremum - and that was why I had to post those reminders.

Regards.

All your reminders are dancing round in circles you never address issues my dear and you are yet to give any meaningful answer to sarmy's question as to why the Apostles or Jesus never ever ever preached, practise or even acknowledge tithing. I have read all your answers and numerous reminders none of them hits the nail on the head and they are at best diversionary. I am begining to get this feeling that maybe you don't even understand what is being refered to as tithing cos you keep using examples that don't tally with the subject at hand or maybe you have your own special definition for it, whatever the case maybe it has no basis in christianity

@P & K
Let me confess that I am astounded by how swiftly I have had to change my mind,then back & again all in 24hrs, , Haba you two, allow my spinnin head to rest now?!  please
Lol, I have learnt something here, have you two?I wonder.

@KunleOshob, she said:

Beloved, it is a simple matter: there are many names that tithes are called - don't be stuck on just the one term "TITHES"; you will lose the value by so doing.

That's why they did not preach on "tithe", cos they may have used some other term to refer to "giving"??



@Pilgrim.1

But seriously, if we neednt say "tithes", why insist that what we give is a "tithe" which should not be a given %. Why not just say "giving" then it wouldnt matter how much it is, periods, what substance(cash, or kind) etc.

If you want me to elaborate on where Jesus taught about the tithes, I shall gladly come back and share.

Really,Please do tell?

pilgrim.1:
Beloved, it is a simple matter: there are many names that tithes are called - don't be stuck on just the one term "TITHES"; you will lose the value by so doing.

Tithes is tithes and it is clearly defined in the old testament (A tenth of what the field produces each year) all the other definitons pilgrim tried to smuggle into the meaning of tithes are not scriptural sound hence i asked if she i trying to confuse readers on this thread. Using such definitions as "hallowed offerings" and "heave offerings" is dancing round the topic cause these two issues don't clearly define tithes as it is known in the old testament. Besides she is quoting from the law of moses which she had earlier admitted is not binding on christians

KunleOshob:
Tithes is tithes and it is clearly defined in the old testament (A tenth of what the field produces each year)

When people make this assumption, my question is simply this: is 1% the same thing as 10%?

@Fifio,

FifiO:
@Pilgrim.1

But seriously, if we neednt say "tithes", why insist that what we give is a "tithe" which should not be a given %. Why not just say "giving" then it wouldnt matter how much it is, periods, what substance(cash, or kind) etc.
Really,Please do tell?

My persuasions can be outlined as simply:

1. I am not one of those who assumes Jesus nor the apostles NEVER said anything about tithes. I have referred to this issue several times already but no one is listening and all I get are "dancing around" issues. Let me say it one more time:

[list][list]

pilgrim.1:
(1) But the word “tithes” or “tithing” is not found in the NT.

This is one of the basic mistakes people use as arguments for not understanding the subject. However, the words ‘tithe’ (Matt. 23:23), ‘tithes’ (Luke 18:12 & Hebrews 7:6, 8, 9), and ‘tenth/tenth parts’ (Hebrews 7:2 & 4) appear in the NT as referenced (using the KJV). Of these references, the first (Matt. 23:23) shows that it was not condemned even by the Lord; while the second set of references discuss this issue on various principles.

[/list][/list]

So again, I cannot assume that the word "tithes" did not feature in the teachings of the Lord Jesus or the apostles.

Secondly, if we look at what the Lord Jesus said specifically, would we be saying that He had done away with the elements that He mentioned there? Let me quote those verses yet again:


        [Matthew 23:23]
        'Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites!
        for ye pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin,
        and have omitted the weightier matters of the law,
        judgment, mercy, and faith:
                      (A) these ought ye to have done, and
                      (B) not to leave the other undone.'

Now, let's all calm down and reason. May I ask us a simple question here: these elements - "judgement, mercy and faith" - are they what the Lord Jesus referred to as "the weightier matters of the LAW" or not?

My submission is simple: if we assume that the Lord has overthrown and rubbished the LAW, we can as well dispense with the notion of judgement, mercy and faith. To argue against it is what He started out in that verse with: "HYPOCRITES" - and that warning is for us all.

Secondly, did the Lord Jesus ask anyone to stop offering tithes at all? If we assume that He was against tithes, please what did He mean by this statement:

                      (A) these ought ye to have done, and
                      (B) not to leave the other undone.

If He was saying that tithes are not important, then we could infer that he was saying that the other matters were not important. We can not divide some of these matters as acceptable and the others as non-existent!

If "these" (ie., the weightier matters of the LAW) are no longer effective, then also the "other" (which are the tithes) are no longer effective as well.

However, if we love "judgement, mercy and faith" (the weightier matters of the law), did the Lord Jesus not also say that we should NOT LEAVE the "other" UNDONE?!?

Can someone tell us what He meant by "not to leave the other undone" - what are the elements included in the "OTHER"?


There are other places where the Lord spoke about tithes O. . . but e be like say we are so captured with the idea that every mention of tithes is a FALSE DOCTRINE that we never get to see how the Lord Himself treated the subject.


I apologise - it was never my intention to change anyone's mind swiftly so many times. This is why I would like to simply leave this matter if I'm not helping anyone henceforth. God bless us all.

@ kunle.  money will always bring out the lowest of men's character.  Jesus said where your heart is, there your treasury will be.`

i have asked you before  how much do you have that you are so worked up over this?

God will never ask of you what He has  not given you.  some people by God's grace give away upto 60% of what they get and they are at peace. you don't have 1m naira in any bank and you are sweating on nairaland.  you need help quick.  the time you waste on nairaland trying to justify your selfishness is getting silly. how old are you? and how do you make a living? if you don't mind me asking

seeing you are so keen on obeying the bible where did you see hailing mary, sprinkling holy water, wedding pregnant women and counting rosary as prayer instruments in the bible?

go read  this 2 books and be more informed.  Whose Money Is It Anyway?  by John MacArthur   and  BEYOND TITHING - MURRAY STUART

hold money lightly brother  because money have wings and fail like you have never known.  God is not after you small money.  He said he that is of a willing heart.  i remember the day i came into europe with a small box  and i see today how God really owns it all. 

dear brother i know you don't like old testament religion  just read deut. 26 gain and ask the  Holy Spirit to talk to you.

Now, my second reference:

2. I am not one of those who assumes that Jesus never said anything about tithes in the NT, or that He was against tithes, or even disfavoured it, or accused anyone who tithed as a manipulator, a thief, a rogue, or a false teacher! I've always stated that God nowhere asked us to be so driven that all that occupies us is the brignad language we use against other people!

When we look at any way in which He talked about tithes, we see that the man who boasted about it did not get any appraisals from the Lord:

             Luke 18:9-14

             'And he spake this parable unto certain which trusted in themselves
             that they were righteous, and despised others:

             Two men went up into the temple to pray; the one a Pharisee,
             and the other a publican.

             The Pharisee stood and prayed thus with himself,
             God, I thank thee, that I am not as other men are, extortioners,
             unjust, adulterers, or even as this publican.

             I fast twice in the week, I give tithes of all that I possess.

             And the publican, standing afar off, would not lift up so much
             as his eyes unto heaven, but smote upon his breast, saying,
             God be merciful to me a sinner.

             I tell you, this man went down to his house justified rather than
             the other: for every one that exalteth himself shall be abased;
             and he that humbleth himself shall be exalted.'

What a profound lesson for each one of us! There is nothing wrong with either paying tithes or fasting - and the Lord did not put the former down because of these elements. The problem why that man missed the issue was because of his self-righteousness and spiritual pride (vv. 9 & 14). The point is clear:

                  (a) paying tithes or fasting does not make one more righteous
                  (b) but despising others can ruin your own fasting and tithing!

This is why Jesus never once condemn anyone for either fasting or tithing; rather, the lesson there to learn is that we ruin everything when we let ourselves to think we are too important and clever to disdain other people and then despise them so much that we call them names to our own detriment!

Shey we like to despise others and call them names? Well, the lesson is there - disdaining other people actually robs us of any blessing we seek from God. The one we dispise may even go down to his house rejoicing in God's justification, than the one who is restless to despise others. That lesson is why I refrain from using bedevilled language on others - it never blesses anyone.


Now notice here two important things in that passage:

            ~ paying tithes

            ~ fasting

Cough! Are these matters not also found in the LAW?!? Somebody help me here. Do we not read in the LAW about:

            ~ fasting [Lev. 16:31 cf. Ezra 8:21]

            ~ tithing [Deut. 14:22]

Today, while many people have no quarrels with fasting (which was mentioned in the LAW), they have a serious problem with tithes (also mentioned in the LAW). Since it has always been argued that Jesus came to fulfill the law so that we are no longer obliged thereto, none of those people argue that we should no longer observe fasting! The problem is that we often rush to conclude issues without paying attention to what exactly God has said about something.

I'm just wishing to share these matters as simply as possible. People who argue that Jesus never said anything about tithes should calm down and go back and look carefully.

Bless.

JJYOU:
God will never ask of you what He has not given you. some people by God's grace give away upto 60% of what they get and they are at peace.

Ahh! I am ashamed of myself. I have actually seen someone whotrusted God that much that he gave 100% of his first two months salary in a new job. He had nothing for another 3 months and was laughed at by many of us ('us' - because I was also stupid to laugh at him ). Yet, not in a single instance did this brother get upset and castigate anyone of us in return. He never told us what he did that for, or why he chose to do so.

But what was our surpise that the fourth month, he happened to just give a helping hand for a role that he was not assigned in the company that employed him. No one knew he had such technical knowledge (for he had applied as a customer service adviser). After he complete that job, and charged nothing in return, management asked him to head the entire IT unit in that company! I won't forget the day he walked into the midweek service on a Wednesday and shared his testimony - with the letter in his hand: his pay had jumped by 250% (from £7 am hour to nearly £18 an hour)! One who was laughed at as a customer service advisor was taken from that humble position to a be Project Manager of the unit that handles Juniper software! Of course he was qualified, but he started out humbly.

JJYOU:
go read this 2 books and be more informed. Whose Money Is It Anyway? by John MacArthur and BEYOND TITHING - MURRAY STUART

I shall find those books to read - someone recommended them a forthnight ago but I've been too lazy to look for them.

Bless.

Hi pilgrim.1 and everyone else in the house. I've been trying to do catch up with the enormosity of the posts, but i guess i had to quickly glance through after a while.There's a point you've raised (pilgrim.1) however, that i do not necessarily agree to and that is the fact that tithes could also mean 1% or any %

@pilgrim.1

(4) But is tithe not always 10% of our income?

Unfortunately, I’m not of those who see it as always and only 10%. Why not so? For the plain reason that the principle of tithes is stated clearly in Num. 18:29 to be simply the ‘best/principal/hallowed part’ of our offerings. This is why the ‘heave offering’ of the Levites (which was their own tithes) is only 1% of all the value of the tithes they received from Israel. This 1% is known sometimes as “the tithe of the tithes” (Neh. 10:38); and there is a difference between 1% and 10%. On very rare occasions, other people have given 100% of everything they had (eg., the widow’s mites or farthing – Luke 21:2-4). So, if someone is looking for exactly 10%, they have missed the very essence of what tithing points to – which is the ‘best/hallowed part’ of our offerings. This is why the NT does not stipulate an exact figure, but simply says that it should be ‘according to what a man has purposed in his heart’ (2 Cor. 9:7).

If you read that scripture (entire chapter) well, you'll see that the norm in those days is that whenever the levites get tithes from the children of isreal, they also had to give "a tenth of that tithe" to the high priest, which in this case, was Aaron and his sons. It is that part that is called the "heave offerings", which in essence meant that the levites also had to tithe what they got, which in this case is 10% of what they got from the children of isreal. And when you look at it from the high priest's angle, represents 1% of what the children of Isreal gave. The other 9% was what the levites kept for themselves.

So that means the children of Isreal never tithed 1% but 10%.

1% got to the High Priest, while the remaining 9% went to the levites for their own upkeep, since they had no inheritance among the children of Isreal. I hope you understand this point of view.

Num 18:26 explains it.

26 "Speak thus to the Levites, and say to them: 'When you take from the children of Israel the tithes which I have given you from them as your inheritance, then you shall offer up a heave offering of it to the LORD, a tenth of the tithe. (NKJV)

26 Moreover thou shalt speak unto the Levites, and say unto them, When ye take of the children of Israel the tithe which I have given you from them for your inheritance, then ye shall offer up a heave-offering of it for Jehovah, a tithe of the tithe. (ASV)

So it means they had to collect the mormal 10% first from the children of Isreal, then give a tenth of it, to the High Priest, it's this part that's the heave offerings.

@ pilgrim 1. that is the problem i have with academic christians. there is no need to be ashamed my dear sister.  God will only ask from what He gave.  i came into europe with one box and nothing more. i was faithful in my thithing from ngr. when i got here i continued.  God blessed me and even gave me a flat unexpectedly in good old hackney of those days.  surprise surprise i was paying  less for the flat than i was paying for a room. it was actually £23 weekly.

i allowed a so called  christian brother to stay with me because he was homeless before you knew it he began to question everything that was important to me. for a period i stopped tithing and i can tell you financially things stopped too. listening to a tape some one blessed with. the preacher mentioned Gods safe point of blessing as the level at which you can maintain your obedience.  one of his many arguments was imagine what could have happened if abraham never offered isaac. he went to samson and others.  then ended saying God was not after what we have  but after what have and controlled us. i repented and vowed i would never stay in disobedience towhat i know was right again. i was stilll young.  i have said somewhere in this forum before one of the nightmares i had as a young man was that of poverty you could spell PO. i moved out my lovely slow poison friend

i made up my mind i was going to look up on anything biblical economics.  i bought anything i saw read,  listened and listened again. i am still learning.

today by Gods grace i tithe. being honest with you i don't work like others work but i know there is favour on me and my finances. crunch or no crunch i don't fear tomorrow  financially.  if tithing was wrong i would still continue doing  it because God has given me more than i need for me and my family. i always remember where i am coming from. i remember being the first person in my family sleeping on an foam t[i]hat was because i went to the boarding school[/i]. i will not tell how many things had to be pawned to afford the 30 naira a term fees.  here we are talking about 10%. God has led many of us from a long way. let learn to be grateful

my in-laws tithe for generations not yet born.  i have loads of friends unbelivers sad to say who have never seen a bible for the last 10yrs give more than the 10% some people are arguing with here.  what is money?  if we say we love God, it should be our pleasure to give what we know belongs to Him willingly with a grateful heart

it looks okay to say people are stealing the money so we wont tithe or give but there are many evil people drinking water why can't we just stop because they are using it.

there will always be abusers of any rule and anything good.  we owe ourselves and not man the right to do good and right before God.  lets us learn to set our default settings to obeying God willingly rather than questioning what we don't know.

the old songs says

"Its A Long Way From Sunday School To Broadway"
Oh she used to stand and clap her hands and sing Amazing Grace
While the tears of childhood innocence were streaming down her face
Mama prayed at night and raised her right and thought she knew her way
But it's a long long way from Sunday School to where she's at today

It's a long long way from Sunday School to Broadway
She's a long way from the girl she used to be
When you sing the city songs it's hard to find your way back home
And it's a long long way from Sunday School to Broa-oa-oadway

Sunday evenings spent in the gospel tent down on her bended knee
Where she gave her soul to Jesus and he set her spirit free
But her body longed for city life and she couldn't stay at home
And it's a long long way from Sunday School to New York nights alone

It's a long long way from Sunday School to Broadway
She's a long way from the girl she used to be
When you sing the city songs it's hard to find your way back home
And it's a long long way from Sunday School to Broa-oa-oadway

Then her eyes grew bright in the cool dark night and a halo framed her face
And a passer-by swore he heard her cry, can you hear Amazing Gra-ace
Did you see the man who took her life as she walked the New York streets
And it's a long long way from Broadway till the place at the Master's feet

It's a long long way from Sunday School to Broadway
She's a long way from the girl she used to be
When you sing the city songs it's hard to find your way back home
And it's a long long way from Sunday School to Broa-oa-oadway

It's a long long way from Sunday School to Broadway
She's a long way from the girl she used to be
When you sing the city songs it's hard to find you

Hi @sleekmag,

I think you're a very keen observer - and I was hoping that someone would notice that very issue and point it out for more discussions. However, much as I appreciate the critique of my inputs, let me point out why I was persuaded that the Levites offering was less than 10%. Please bear with me:

sleekymag:
@pilgrim.1
[font=Lucida Sans Unicode]If you read that scripture (entire chapter) well, you'll see that the norm in those days is that whenever the levites get tithes from the children of isreal, they also had to give "a tenth of that tithe" to the high priest, which in this case, was Aaron and his sons.

Okay, but just hang on a minute here and let me point out that we are mixing something here.

There are two distinct types of the offerings of Israel in Numbers 18, or shall I say two distinct features of their offerings. Please understand that when you mentioned Aaron and his sons, you're dealing with a very, very different aspect here - which is the first part. That part was never given to the Levites; but rather it was Aaron's and his sons for ever (Num. 18:8).

Let me bring this round neatly:

      (a) the first aspect was to the service of the sanctuary of the altar:
            this was not assigned to the Levites specifically (see Num. 18:3 & 5)

      (b) the second pertained to the service of the Tabernacle of congregation:
           it was this second aspect that the Levites were asked to care of -
           (see Num. 18:6 & 23)

Now, when Israel offered, there were two aspects of the "heave offerings" -

      (a) theaspect that was given to Aaron, his sons and daughters forever
           (please see Num. 18:11 ~~
                     'And this is thine; the heave offering of their gift,
                      with all the wave offerings of the children of Israel:
                      I have given them unto thee,
                      and to thy sons and to thy daughters with thee,
                      by a statute for ever: every one that is clean in thy house
                      shall eat of it.'

      (b) however, it is the second aspect of the heave offering that
            the Levites got [Num. 18:21 & 24]

                       'And, behold, I have given the children of Levi
                       all the tenth in Israel for an inheritance,
                       for their service which they serve,
                       even the service of the tabernacle of the congregation

                       . . . But the tithes of the children of Israel, which they offer
                       as an heave offering unto the LORD,
                       I have given to the Levites to inherit: therefore I have said
                       unto them, Among the children of Israel they shall have
                       no inheritance'

I apologise, but it is not my intention to be tedious here about these matters. I thought it may be helpful to draw these distinctions now before we make huge mistakes in future discussions. Now, noticing these two aspects and their distinctions, it is not surprising that the apostle also distinguished between those who served on the Altar and those who served in the Temple (tabernacle), as we see in 1 Corinthians 9:13 ~~

                       '(A) Do ye not know that they which minister about holy things
                             live of the things of the temple?

                       (B) and they which wait at the altar are partakers with the altar?'

The apostle never confused them, and neither should we at any point.

But what is the purpose of all this? Simply that we should never make the mistake of assuming that both the Levites and the house of Aaron shared the same thing from the same service - no they did not. And we have seen the clear issue above. If there is something not clear above, please call my attention to it and let's critique it together.

Having said all that above, we now can look at what you mentioned in relation to the heave offerings which the Levites received, so we don't confuse them with that which belonged to Aaron, his sons and daughters:

sleekymag:
It is that part that is called the "heave offerings", which in essence meant that the levites also had to tithe what they got, which in this case is 10% of what they got from the children of isreal.[/font]

Okay, but hang on a minute and let's look at the heave offering from the Levites in particular. You would notice that it is not only the Levites who gave the heave offering; but that particular offering was made by the whole nation of Israel. Let me show you a few:

Numbers 15:18-20
Speak unto the children of Israel, and say unto them,
When ye come into the land whither I bring you,
Then it shall be, that, when ye eat of the bread of the land,
ye shall offer up an heave offering unto the LORD.
Ye shall offer up a cake of the first of your dough for an heave offering:
as ye do the heave offering of the threshingfloor, so shall ye heave it.

Numbers 18:24
But the tithes of the children of Israel, which they offer
as an heave offering unto the LORD,
I have given to the Levites to inherit:
therefore I have said unto them,
Among the children of Israel they shall have no inheritance.

What does Num. 18:24 tell us? For those who always argue that tithes must always be from someone's income, I've got news for you: the Levites who also offered their tithes had no inheritance! They got nothing from their agricultural labours, because they had no inheritance from all that Israel got!

Secondly, we notice that this "heave offering" which they received from Israel was not called the tithes of the Levites. No. It was from that tithes/tenths of Israel that they also took out just a small portion - and that small portion is only 1% of the total value of the tithes of Israel's heave offerings! Read that verse again - there God says it was the "the tithes of the children of Israel, which they offer as an heave offering unto the LORD" - and the Levites were to take just 1% of that 10% and offer as their own heave offering.

If we don't see this point clearly, it would lead to the idea that what was left was only 9% and not 90% - which was what you came to:

sleekymag:
And when you look at it from the high priest's angle, represents 1% of what the children of Isreal gave. The other 9% was what the levites kept for themselves.

There it is, bros. We know we cannot speak of 90% in this case - and as you have astutely noted, speaking from the highpriet's perspective (which evaluated all the gifts of Israel and not just the Levites), there could not be a 90% left. That is why we read of the "tithe of the tithes unto the house of our God, to the chambers, into the treasure house" (Neh. 10:38). This latter verse just quoted, tells us that it was not 10% that was taken into the chamber - it was rather 1% (the tithe of the tithes) that was taken into the treasury, by the hand of the Levites and not the hands of the sons of Aaron.

Cheers.

@sleekmag,

sleekymag:
So that means the children of Isreal never tithed 1% but 10%.

Aye. But I don't remember saying that the children of Israel gave 1%.

sleekymag:
1% got to the High Priest, while the remaining 9% went to the levites for their own upkeep, since they had no inheritance among the children of Isreal. I hope you understand this point of view.

I understand you; although that is not what appears to be there. Here is a simple outline which I have already give:

(a) all the children of Israel - gave 10%

(b) Aaron, his sons and daughters received what was offered for the ALTAR

(c) the Levites received 10% from Israel as reward for their service in the
TABERNACLE (Num. 18:31)

(d) what Aaron and his house received was used by them all

(e) what the Levites received was taken and part of it heaved
Num. 18:29

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

(f ) the offerings which Aaron and his family received was far more
and included:
~ heave offerings
~ the most holy things, reserved from the fire
~ every meat offering
~ every sin offering
~ every trespass offering
~ the heave offering of their gift
~ all the wave offerings of the children of Israel
~ every thing devoted in Israel
~ every thing that openeth the matrix in all flesh
[Num. 18: 8-15]

~ in short, they were described as "all the heave offerings of the holy things" (v. 19)


(g) that which the Levites got and used for themselves was
the heave offering of the tithes of Israel [Num. 18:24]

It was from the heave offering of the tithes of Israel that the Levites presented their own heave offering.

sleekymag:
Num 18:26 explains it.

26 "Speak thus to the Levites, and say to them: 'When you take from the children of Israel the tithes which I have given you from them as your inheritance, then you shall offer up a heave offering of it to the LORD, a tenth of the tithe. (NKJV)

Okay, and that "tenth of the tithes" was simply 1% of the total value - or you would have to ask yourself how much of the total value was taken into the chamber of the house of God (Neh. 10:38).

sleekymag:
So it means they had to collect the mormal 10% first from the children of Isreal, then give a tenth of it, to the High Priest, it's this part that's the heave offerings.

Lol, maybe I'm making a serious mistake here: please help me - where does it say that they gave any part of that portion to the High Priest? or are we just assuming it so, and mistaking what belonged to the Highpriest as belonging to the Levites?

@JJYOU,

JJYOU:
@ pilgrim 1. that is the problem i have with academic christians. there is no need to be ashamed my dear sister. God will only ask from what He gave.

I enjoyed your testimony, and I've learnt so much from many experiences. I only look back at how silly I was, laughing at those who knew what they were doing. . and parading myself as an "academic" Christian. To my own detriment, I was none the wiser, and the person we laughed at was blessed beyond his own expectations. Did my "academic" argument help my own wisdom? Far from it - but since then I have learnt my lessoons.

God bless, bro.

Aye. But I don't remember saying that the children of Israel gave 1%.

You didnt say exactly that but inferred tithe could also be 1% or any other % with your various statements some of which are

(4) But is tithe not always 10% of our income?

Unfortunately, I’m not of those who see it as always and only 10%. Why not so? For the plain reason that the principle of tithes is stated clearly in Num. 18:29 to be simply the ‘best/principal/hallowed part’ of our offerings. This is why the ‘heave offering’ of the Levites (which was their own tithes) is only 1% of all the value of the tithes they received from Israel. This 1% is known sometimes as “the tithe of the tithes” (Neh. 10:38); and there is a difference between 1% and 10%.

6. the real value of tithing is not “how much” but rather “what is”

7. this value simply points to the ‘best part’ of all our offerings

8. this is why tithes or any other offering is not a matter of how much %

My point with you here, however is that if at all you tithe, it shouldn't be less or more than 10%. Of course you can give more as the spirit leads, but that 10% is what is your tithes. You can also give less, but to me that could be a freewill offering or thanksgiving offering, or to simply contribute towards the Lord's work, whichever your reason for giving is.

@sleekmag,

sleekymag:
You didnt say exactly that but inferred tithe could also be 1% or any other % with your various statements some of which are . .

I understand your point now; and yes, I am persuaded that tithe is not strictly 10% at every single instance. The general idea that we carry in our minds is that tithes = 10%; and many encyclopedias you consult will put it like that.

However, a few reasons why it doesn't seem so to me include, but not limited to:

(a) the case of the "tithe of the tithes" in Neh. 10:30

(b) the widow's mites in the treasury in Luke 21:2-4

(c) the personal "proportion" each person makes (1 Cor. 16:2 - AMP).

Particularly in reference to (c) above, some have argued that it has no reference whatsoever with any measure or 'proportion'; and I've actually seen this in some commentaries. After having tried to look at the verse myself, I'm persuded that it is referring to that which is in measure according to one's prospering.

Anyhow, whether we call it particularly "tithes" or not, it does not negate the fact that there are other types of giving in the NT - and I share that view with you. The one thing I try to do is not clobber anyone with my convictions and at the same time arrive at making this subject a waste. Certainly, people do not want to call their giving by the name "tithes", and there are no worries there. However, is that conviction underlined by the idea that the subject of tithes was not taught anywhere in the NT? If that is what is crux of this matter, it has been the reason why I have been trying to help others take a closer look at where in the NT it was actually mentioned.

@ pilgrim 1. that is the problem i have with academic christians. there is no need to be ashamed my dear sister.  God will only ask from what He gave.  i came into europe with one box and nothing more. i was faithful in my thithing from ngr. when i got here i continued.  God blessed me and even gave me a flat unexpectedly in good old hackney of those days.  surprise surprise i was paying  less for the flat than i was paying for a room. it was actually £23 weekly.

i allowed a so called  christian brother to stay with me because he was homeless before you knew it he began to question everything that was important to me. for a period i stopped tithing and i can tell you financially things stopped too. listening to a tape some one blessed with. the preacher mentioned Gods safe point of blessing as the level at which you can maintain your obedience.  one of his many arguments was imagine what could have happened if abraham never offered isaac. he went to samson and others.  then ended saying God was not after what we have  but after what have and controlled us. i repented and vowed i would never stay in disobedience towhat i know was right again. i was stilll young.  i have said somewhere in this forum before one of the nightmares i had as a young man was that of poverty you could spell PO. i moved out my lovely slow poison friend

i made up my mind i was going to look up on anything biblical economics.  i bought anything i saw read,  listened and listened again. i am still learning.

today by Gods grace i tithe. being honest with you i don't work like others work but i know there is favour on me and my finances. crunch or no crunch i don't fear tomorrow  financially.  if tithing was wrong i would still continue doing  it because God has given me more than i need for me and my family. i always remember where i am coming from. i remember being the first person in my family sleeping on an foam that was because i went to the boarding school. i will not tell how many things had to be pawned to afford the 30 naira a term fees.  here we are talking about 10%. God has led many of us from a long way. let learn to be grateful

my in-laws tithe for generations not yet born.  i have loads of friends unbelivers sad to say who have never seen a bible for the last 10yrs give more than the 10% some people are arguing with here.  what is money?  if we say we love God, it should be our pleasure to give what we know belongs to Him willingly with a grateful heart

it looks okay to say people are stealing the money so we wont tithe or give but there are many evil people drinking water why can't we just stop because they are using it.

there will always be abusers of any rule and anything good.  we owe ourselves and not man the right to do good and right before God.  lets us learn to set our default settings to obeying God willingly rather than questioning what we don't know.

I also have a personal experience. There's what we call rhema, and that's what you get when you study God's word personally and ask for the Holy Spirit's help for revelation. I came to an understanding that why should i try to justify myself with God's word, seeing only the less tasking part by giving God 1% as tithe (as in Num 18:24-29) because the levites did that, or follow Deut 14:22-29 where the tither ate part of his tithe with members of his family, then gave a portion of it to the less privilege and the levite (pastor), both of which scenarios are very convenient to the tither and less tasking. God owns it all, all i have, all you have. What is 10% that's too much to give God everytime? I came to a deeper revelation that it's God's mystery for prosperity. You give your tithes not because you hope to prosper in return, but in true obedience to him and his work. There are people give much more to God; God doesn't need my blessings i am the one that needs his hands. The underlying motive for rationalising which is more appropriate to give is because we want to look for an easier way out. Tithing is not compulsory, giving is not compulsory, but you can't love without giving. If we claim we love God, our tithes shouldn't be a big deal. God so loved us that he gave his son to die for us.

Moreover, in the new testament sense 1 Pet 2:9, we are priests, a royal priesthood, called to show forth the praises of God.

God is after our hearts, that's what he wants. Life can be much simpler than all these analysis here and there, to and fro, in search of a truth that is available not by digging deep and cross-referncing the scriptures but by opening our hearts to him in sincerity for him to show us what we don't know.

sleekymag:
I also have a personal experience. There's what we call rhema, and that's what you get when you study God's word personally and ask for the Holy Spirit's help for revelation. I came to an understanding that why should i try to justify myself with God's word, seeing only the less tasking part by giving God 1% as tithe (as in Num 18:24-29) because the levites did that, or follow Deut 14:22-29 where the tither ate part of his tithe with members of his family, then gave a portion of it to the less privilege and the levite (pastor), both of which scenarios are very convenient to the tither and less tasking. God owns it all, all i have, all you have. What is 10% that's too much to give God everytime? I came to a deeper revelation that it's God's mystery for prosperity. You give your tithes not because you hope to prosper in return, but in true obedience to him and his work. There are people give much more to God; God doesn't need my blessings i am the one that needs his hands. The underlying motive for rationalising which is more appropriate to give is because we want to look for an easier way out. Tithing is not compulsory, giving is not compulsory, but you can't love without giving. If we claim we love God, our tithes shouldn't be a big deal. God so loved us that he gave his son to die for us.

@sleekmag,

I am humbled by your very simple and rich input - you've opened my eyes to a few things and also added to my knowledge: not because I'm inclined to tithing, but more because you captured the very pulse of the whole discussion in very few words. God bless and enrich you more.

God bless you too my sister. Do have a great evening.

sleekymag:
or follow Deut 14:22-29 where the tither ate part of his tithe with members of his family, then gave a portion of it to the less privilege and the levite (pastor),

This does not correlate with what followed from you in the same response:

sleekymag:
What is 10% that's too much to give God everytime?

Maybe you should pause for a while and gather your thoughts clearly to stop further muddling trying to justify the unjustifiable for CHRISTians.

I believe it might be useful at this time to re-introduce this drama sketch, that covers most of the issues in this tithe fraud that continues unabated in our churches.
------------------------------------------------------------

As a sequel to my last article debunking Mr. Enoch Adejare Adeboye’s claims about tithing, Believers are not subject to the Tithe, I hereby present a court scenario in which the General Overseer of the Redeemed Christian Church of God stands before the Great Judge of all the earth, the Lord Jesus Christ, on this subject. Enjoy the conversation:

Jesus: Enoch, you have been charged with multiple counts of extortion. Your crime spree covers 20 years and thousands of victims. You have defrauded people out of their money with fear and manipulation, telling them they had to tithe 10% of their income to your church and that God would bless them if they did. You also told them that if they didn’t tithe they would go to hell. How do you plead?

Pastor Enoch: I plead not guilty, sir. I have done nothing wrong. I have only preached what the Bible says. In the Bible Abraham tithed to Melchizedek and God blessed him for his faithful giving. The Bible even says he was rich in silver and gold.

Jesus: Is it not true, Enoch, that in Genesis chapter 13 verse 2 the Bible says Abraham was rich with livestock, silver and gold?

Pastor Enoch: Yes, you are exactly right, that’s what I just told you.

Jesus: Ok, we read about Abraham being a rich man in chapter 13. But it is not until Genesis chapter 14 that we read about Abraham’s tithe to Melchizedek. So Abraham was already a rich man before he tithed to Melchizedek, wasn’t he?

Pastor Enoch: Yes, I suppose you are right.

Jesus: So his riches were not the result of his tithe to Melchizedek?

Pastor Enoch: No.

Jesus: Enoch, you also say God blessed him for his faithful giving. How many times is it recorded that Abraham gave tithes to Melchizedek?

Pastor Enoch: Well, just once.

Jesus: So the Bible never said that he gave week after week?

Pastor Enoch: No; it does not.

Jesus: Where did Abraham get the things that he gave to Melchizedek?

Pastor Enoch: Well, the Bible says it was from the plunders of war.

Jesus: So you are telling me that he gave from the plunders of war?

Pastor Enoch: Yes that’s what the Bible says.

Jesus: So he basically took things that were not really his in the first place and gave them as the tithe?

Pastor Enoch: That is what the scripture seems to indicate.

Jesus: Is it recorded that he ever took anything from his own possessions and tithed them to Melchizedek or anyone else?

Pastor Enoch: I guess not

Jesus: You guess not! You pastor one of the largest denominations on the planet and you are only guessing? Is it or is it not written that he ever gave any of his own possessions as a tithe to anyone?

Pastor Enoch: No; it is not written anywhere that I have seen.

Jesus: Is it recorded as to what exactly Abraham did give Melchizedek?

Pastor Enoch: I believe it says plunder?

Jesus: So plunder could be any number of things?

Pastor Enoch: Yes, I suppose.

Judge: It could have been food, cattle, sheep, the people’s possessions or any number of things. It does not say it was all money; correct?

Pastor Enoch: Yes; sir. You are correct; it does not say just money.

Jesus: As a matter of fact, money is never mentioned in that account at all; is that correct, Enoch?

Pastor Enoch: Yes, sir; money is never mentioned; just goods and food and people.

Jesus: So there is no way you can say with any certainty that Abraham in fact gave Melchizedek any money at all?

Pastor Enoch: That is right.

Jesus: I only have one last question for you, Enoch. Did God command Abraham to give this plunder as tithe to Melchizedek?

Pastor Enoch: No; it appears that he did this voluntarily.

Jesus: So are you trying to tell me that because of this voluntary, one time gift by Abraham, that may not have even consisted of money, all Christians everywhere are obligated to bring 10% of their monthly salary to a local church?

Jesus: Considering all the evidence, I would say you are beyond any shadow of a doubt guilty of deliberately trying to make the scriptures says things they have not said for financial gain.

Pastor Enoch: Sir, I can see how foolish I was to try and use the story of Melchizedeck to try and get the people to tithe money. But there are many other verses that will support my belief on tithing. Jacob said he would give God 10% of everything. I think we should follow his example.

Jesus: Let’s see what Jacob said. Please read the verse you are talking about for me, Enoch.

Pastor Enoch: In Genesis chapter 28, starting at verse 20 it says, ‘Jacob vowed a vow, saying, “If God will be with me, and will keep me in this way that I go, and will give me bread to eat, and clothing to put on, so that I come again to my father’s house in peace, and Yahweh will be my God, then this stone, which I have set up for a pillar, will be God’s house. Of all that you will give me I will surely give the tenth to you.”‘

Jesus: You said people should follow Jacobs’s example, is that right, Enoch?

Pastor Enoch: Yes; that is right. He vowed to give a tenth and we should too.

Jesus: Let me point out one thing for you, Enoch. Jacob said he would Give God a tenth, ONLY if He blessed him first. So as you said previously, we should follow Jacob’s example and tell God that we will only give him a tenth if he blesses us first. Is that right?

Pastor Enoch: That is not what I meant.

Jesus: What did you mean then?

Pastor Enoch: That we should give God a tenth also.

Jesus: There you go again, trying to make the scripture say what you want it to say for your benefit. I would also like you to tell me the scriptures that say that Jacob kept his vow with God. I would also like to know where he gave the tenth to because there was no temple or levites to give it to at that time.

Pastor Enoch: I can not think of any scriptures that say where or if he ever tithed after his vow.

Jesus: It is obvious that Jacob made a voluntary and conditional vow to God. This in no way can be used as a reason to demand others to bring their income to you or any other place.

Pastor Enoch: I do have a few more scriptures that I believe will show that we are supposed to tithe.

Jesus: So far, all you have done is taken scripture and misapplied it to your beliefs and for your gain. But in order to be fair to you I will allow you to present more evidence.

Pastor Enoch: In the book of Malachi chapter 3 starting at verse 8 it says, “Will a man rob God? yet ye have robbed me. But ye say, In what have we robbed thee? In tithes and offerings. Ye are cursed with a curse: for ye have robbed me, even this whole nation. Bring ye all the tithes into the store-house, that there may be food in my house, and prove me now with this, saith the LORD of hosts, if I will not open you the windows of heaven, and pour you out a blessing, that there shall not be room enough to receive it.” So you see sir, we are commanded to bring the tithes into the storehouse or God will curse us.

Jesus: Answer me this, Enoch, were you aware that I never required anyone to tithe money?

Pastor Enoch: No I didn’t know that.

Jesus: The tithe spoken of here was always edible products never money.

Pastor Enoch: Sir, that is because they didn’t have money at the time so God had them tithe food instead.

Jesus: Not true, money is first mentioned in Genesis - and Malachi was written hundreds of years later. God had them bring food in so that the levites, the fatherless and widows may eat and be satisfied. The tithe was used mainly to take care of people. Also notice it says in the verse you quoted, that there may be food in my house. How do you completely overlook the word food in those verses?

Pastor Enoch: I don’t know.

Jesus: I also want you to know that these verses speak to people under the Old Testament law. As you may or may not know, I fulfilled the law while I was on earth. The Law is no longer binding. Tithing was part of that law that has been abolished.

Jesus: And once again, you have tried to completely take a scripture out of context and apply it to others for your benefit. Can you give me a single scripture where God changed the tithe from food to money?

Pastor Enoch: I do not know of any.

Jesus: So if God never changed it from food to money who did?

Pastor Enoch: Man must have.

Jesus: So far all you have done, Enoch, is take Old Testament scriptures out of context and try to apply it to believers under the New Covenant. Is this all the proof you have?

Pastor Enoch: I do have a New Testament scripture that will show that You told us to tithe.

Jesus: Ok; let me hear it.

Pastor Enoch: You said in Matthew 23:23 “Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you tithe mint, dill, and cumin, and have left undone the weightier matters of the law: justice, mercy, and faith. But you ought to have done these, and not to have left the other undone.” Surely, You were saying there that we should be tithing.

Jesus: Let me ask you a question, who was I talking to in that passage?

Pastor Enoch: The scripture says the scribes and Pharisees.

Jesus: Are you and your members scribes or Pharisees?

Pastor Enoch: No sir; God forbid!.

Jesus: I also said in that passage, “You have left undone the weightier matters of the law“. Are we under the law, Enoch?

Pastor Enoch: No.

Jesus: Why not?

Pastor Enoch: Because You fulfilled it, and it passed away.

Jesus: When did I fulfill the law?

Pastor Enoch: When You were crucified.

Jesus: So the law was still in effect until My death?

Pastor Enoch: That is correct sir.

Jesus: I think you know where I am going with this; don’t you?

Pastor Enoch: Yes; sir. Since You had not yet been crucified and the law was still binding, the Pharisees were required to tithe because it was part of the law. Once the law ended, tithing ended also.

Jesus: I want you to take a look at that verse again. Also tell me, what were they tithing?

Pastor Enoch: The scripture says it was mint, dill and cumin.

Jesus: Was money mentioned there?

Pastor Enoch: No sir; it was not.

Jesus: Once again it was edible products that they were tithing, not money. Do you have anything else you would like to say?

Pastor Enoch: If people only tithed edible products like the scripture says, then how would the church survive? We had to build that million-seater cathedral to accomodate the people who come for Holy Ghost Festival yearly, the salaries of other pastors have to be paid. So many other things. We depend on the money from the people.

Jesus: The need does not justify the means. In other words, just because you have all these debts does not give you the right to twist and manipulate scripture and cause people to give under fear of being cursed by God to meet your needs. Not to mention that all those items you listed are problems you created for yourelves. They are not My agenda. You were pursuing your agenda.

Jesus: Now to the more greivous consequences of your enforcing the tithe on believer. What did Paul write in Galatians 5:4 about attempting to follow the Law?

Pastor Enoch: That if they obeyed any part of the old Jewish law, including the law of circumcision, in order to be right (justified) with God, they have fallen from grace, or lost their salvation.

Jesus: Do you admit that like circumcision, tithing was part of the law?

Pastor Enoch: Yes, sir.

Jesus: Now if obeying the law of circumcision would cause gentile Christians of Paul’s day to “fall from grace”, one would have to conclude that obeying another old law; “The law of tithing” would have the same results on them today; that is to say, it will cause them to fall away from the grace of God.

Pastor Enoch: [Swallows hard] I suppose so.

Jesus: In other words, you are admitting that your teaching the tithe is actually sending people down the road to hell?

Pastor Enoch: That was not what I intended, sir.

Jesus: Nevertheless, that is the result of your actions - your ministry. How many of those one billion members (not counting the non-members who heard you and believed you) do you suppose have been turned aside unknowingly this way?

Pastor Enoch: [Swallows hard] I have no idea, sir.

Pastor Enoch: I never realized all these things, I have always been taught that we had to tithe money to the local church and that is what I have always taught. Yes I am guilty. I will not teach this error anymore. Infact, I will go and take my words back. As many people as possible must hear this.

THE END
I have given the narration a good ending. I hope that someone close to Mr. Adeboye loves him enough and has enough balls to bring this issue to his attention. You will be saving not only his soul but the souls of millions of others who believe his grace-defying, grace-denying doctrine of tithing.

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Credits:
This narration was crafted and adapted from my previous article, Believers are not subject to the Tithe, and from materials put up at http://tithing.christian-things.com/articles.html

Source: The Trial