₦airaland Forum

KunleOshob:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tithe_War
>snip<
Tithe War is the forgotten story of almost 100,000 tithe-paying farmers and landowners whose fight for a just and equitable end to an archaic tax spanned the inter-war years of the 20th century.

Tithes are NOT equal to Taxes. [2 Kings 23:35 and Daniel 11:20].

KunleOshob:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tithe_War
The British Government was alarmed by several aspects of this massacre: by the fact that the order to fire was given by an anglican clergyman, by the pittance involved in relation to the bloodshed, and by the fact that the people had withstood several volleys and at least one charge by the troops without breaking.

That's simply because. . .

KunleOshob:
Tithes were, by that enactment, to be applied to the maintenance of the bishop, clergy, the poor, and the fabric of the church. In the course of time the principle of payment of tithes was extended far beyond its original intention.

@JJYOU: « #1362 on: Today at 01:09:47 PM »  

her life is her personal theatre. she doesn't owe you any duty of allowing your lovely argumentative self into it.  it looks you can't take rejection or no for an answer. if you are a real man you would never have printed that email address in an open forum .  

Whats your yardstick for a real man? I think you are talking out of ignorance. Pilgrim.1 is telling you that she needs to be treated with kids gloves? Now in religion, she has to be treated like a lady? You must be dreaming! Maybe in Christianity. Does her soul different from a man's soul? Is her heart not the same as a man's?

If you think your coming to her defense will endear you to her, you are mistaking! She lives in England. And you live whre, now? There is a gulf between the two of you. She should know that one will challenge her, when she threw the gauntlet! Now she withdraws. There is no gender treatment in religion.

what is the matter with you?  can you stop hounding her as i don't think that is your islamic duty

You repeat the irrelevance  too often! Wait to see how you feel when she in her saucy way talk badly about "The catholic sect!"
The Catholic should call her on it, too. She may also withdraws. I guess the ation have to be kept light for both of you.

you are the kind of people they call slow poison. you and your sacntimony don't kill instantly but rather slowly.  like i said earlier God is not hungry. He is not looking for nobody's money. Tithing is not about money. it is more than that and from your aguments you cannot be reasoned with on this.  get all you can and keep all you can.  you wish your success university http://oshobi.successuniversity.com/successu/  will be able to take care of you for a life time.
the small problem i have with people like you is not that you have money but that money controls you so much you would dare look for reasons not to glorify God with it.  let us all learn at your command as the fishermen learnt to say to Jesus.  we don't always know what we think we know.  that is why some people confidently fail exams. with confidence

years ago a pastor preached on tithing for 5 mins and said this words  " don't take anybody's word for it, let God tell you how you can allign your life, heart and finances with His kingdom. he ended that talk by saying God will never ask you to give what He has not given you in the first place.

if you ever want to leave the life of penury and living from pay cheques to another, you have to get to the point you say to your flesh and small unbelieving beliefs you need to travel with GOD further than money matter. there is more to life than money.  

why don't you get afraid when you begin to believe the same thing a mole person believe about the bible and its teachings?  why would a person that don't have the mind of Christ hold the same opinion/ doctrines as you?

lets pursue a right standing with God.  what does it cost you not to always try to be wise in your own eyes? be small in your own eyes because you don't know it all and will never know it all.

i don't know if you have ever read these text yourself   Deuteronomy 26

Deuteronomy 26  Firstfruits and Tithes

1 When you have entered the land the LORD your God is giving you as an inheritance and have taken possession of it and settled in it, 2 take some of the firstfruits of all that you produce from the soil of the land the LORD your God is giving you and put them in a basket. Then go to the place the LORD your God will choose as a dwelling for his Name 3 and say to the priest in office at the time, "I declare today to the LORD your God that I have come to the land the LORD swore to our ancestors to give us." for the priest shall take the basket from your hands and set it down in front of the altar of the LORD your God.

5 Then you shall declare before the LORD your God: "My father was a wandering Aramean, and he went down into Egypt with a few people and lived there and became a great nation, powerful and numerous. 6 But the Egyptians mistreated us and made us suffer, subjecting us to harsh labor. 7 Then we cried out to the LORD, the God of our ancestors, and the LORD heard our voice and saw our misery, toil and oppression. 8 So the LORD brought us out of Egypt with a mighty hand and an outstretched arm, with great terror and with signs and wonders. 9 He brought us to this place and gave us this land, a land flowing with milk and honey; 10 and now I bring the firstfruits of the soil that you, LORD, have given me." Place the basket before the LORD your God and bow down before him. 11 Then you and the Levites and the foreigners residing among you shall rejoice in all the good things the LORD your God has given to you and your household.

12 When you have finished setting aside a tenth of all your produce in the third year, the year of the tithe, you shall give it to the Levite, the foreigner, the fatherless and the widow, so that they may eat in your towns and be satisfied. 13

Then say to the LORD your God: "I have removed from my house the sacred portion and have given it to the Levite, the foreigner, the fatherless and the widow, according to all you commanded. I have not turned aside from your commands nor have I forgotten any of them. 14 I have not eaten any of the sacred portion while I was in mourning, nor have I removed any of it while I was unclean, nor have I offered any of it to the dead. I have obeyed the LORD my God; I have done everything you commanded me.

olabowale:
@JJYOU: « #1362 on: Today at 01:09:47 PM »   Whats your yardstick for a real man? I think you are talking out of ignorance. Pilgrim.1 is telling you that she needs to be treated with kids gloves? Now in religion, she has to be treated like a lady? You must be dreaming! Maybe in Christianity. Does her soul different from a man's soul? Is her heart not the same as a man's?

If you think your coming to her defense will endear you to her, you are mistaking! She lives in England. And you live whre, now? There is a gulf between the two of you. She should know that one will challenge her, when she threw the gauntlet! Now she withdraws. There is no gender treatment in religion.

You repeat the irrelevance  too often! Wait to see how you feel when she in her saucy way talk badly about "The catholic sect!" The Catholic should call her on it, too. She may also withdraws. I guess the ation have to be kept light for both of you.

i would revert back to my normal custom of ignoring you because i dont argue with people with your mindset. you are talking like a child and not a man. you dont go about insulting or fighting women not even in the name of your so called religion. surprise surprise you dont even need to have religion to know that

if you knew where i am, you would not talk about where i live now. living in america has not changed you. i am shocked a mole person can spell the word saucy let alone use it. you have your 4 wives and you still go about listening to some women talk saucy to you. God help you. you need Jesus in your life quick

More links on the truth about tithes http://www.letusreason.org/doct54.htm
http://www.tentmaker.org/books/TheTitheisIllegal.html
http://www.westendlhs.hampshire.org.uk/tithehistory.html

by the time you browse through the listed sites you would realise that tithes as always had a history of corruption, abuse, extortion, manipulation and deceit. which is still happening today

KunleOshob:
by the time you browse through the listed sites you would realise that tithes as always had a history of corruption, abuse, extortion, manipulation and deceit.

@KunleOshob,

It's okay. We all know that whatever God has given, man has always tended to abuse it. You name anything at all it is that God has given to us, and you will find that not in a single case has it escaped man's attempt to corrupt, abuse, manipulate it to deceive others. But does that make the blessing itself to be a "corrupt doctrine"? We all know the answer to that. My submission therefore is that we don't allow man's tendencies to rob us of what God has given us - by extension, we should not rest our hearts on the abuses of man, but rather seek what God has said on any matter.

As Christians, we can share matters amicably in the love of Christ. I learn everyday; and if an issue tends to make tempers rise, my inclination is to fold myself away for a while until we can find an enabling environment to discuss. Yes, it is alright for anyone to disagree with me or others; but we can still rejoice in the love of our Lord and Saviour, Jesus Christ.

Abundant blessings to you.

my brother relax.  the kingdom of God is bigger than me and your tithe.  i don't think you have a £1m any where today as liquid cash so your tithe is absolutely inconsiquential to the kingdom and things of God as we know it.

you posted this brilliant piece in another thread and i am shocked you are actually capable of reasoning like this  

Roman Catholic Is Not A Church, But A Modernised Way Of Idolatry?   on: Today at 11:48:53 AM
I would not join or continue contributing to this meaningless thread, i believe all denominations have their own faults and nobody as a right to condem the other. The fact that catholic leaders in history made mistakes or instituitionalized some wrong doctrine does not make them a cult. Today most of the younger generation attend pentecostal churches that preach what is not well grounded in scripture. we see them preach so many false doctine every day and take advantage of innocent christians yet it is the catholic church you people are persecuting. As far as i am concerned this persecution of the catholic church is a propanganda started by the pentecostal churches who are only interested in poaching their members and increasing the congregation of members in their own church for mostly material benefit. because i don't believe any geniune christian preacher would devote so much energy attacking another christian denomination that existed centuries before his own.

As christians we are all members of the body of christ and we should seek out what draws us together and not what divides us

. this is amazing coming from you. did you pray before you wrote this?

If i have my way as a christian, i would ban church denominations and ensure all churches come together under one umbrella (christ) but then that is impossible because what drives most of these churches is not the love of christ but personal benefit. I implore all true christians that have the fear of God in them to stop this craze demonizing the catholic church. No denomination is perfect.

signs and wonders shall never end.  my brother  i wont ask you for any tithe  but i whole heartedly say amen and look forward to your rantings against churches stopping forthwith. and thanks for your co-operation

even the matthew 23:23 and the luke 11:42 fraudulently used to confuse christians that Jesus okayed tithing was not directed a christians but pharisees who were under the law

.  

@KunleOshob

Indeed. Jesus was condemning the hypocrisy of the pharisees in keeping part of the law, the part they favoured, and leaving out others, especially judgement and the love of God. Remember Jesus said elsewhere that these two are the "great" and "second greatest" commandments.

by the time you browse through the listed sites you would realise that tithes as always had a history of corruption, abuse, extortion, manipulation and deceit. which is still happening today

You seem however to have a problem with what men have done with the princile of tithing. I see your point there. Still, Should we trow the baby out with the bath water?


@pilgrim.1
If I understand your point, tithing is a principle older than law but incorporated in the law. Abraham gave tithes instintively, or shall I say by the leading of God's Spirit. We should not feel compelled to tithe but as  Paul argues, it is good to give it since we understand that it is useful to the church as it was to the priests of the old testament,,  am I getting you right??

Honestly, do you two realise how much the rest of us (me at least!) are benefiting from these discussions?. I appreciate all your points and I am forming a whole new perspective on the subject. Thanks to you two!  Please don't let anger and rancour in now.

The way I see it now, I will never feel guilty about not tithing(or giving) , but when I can i will being mindful of the needs of the church underwhich I recieve instructions.

I like the way  Paul would say it:

"All things are lawful for me, but not all things are expedient: all things are lawful but all things edify not " 1 Cor 10:23


12 So speak ye, and do, as they that shall be judged by the law of liberty.



Finally,

"Stand fast therefore in the liberty wherewith christ hath made you free and be not entangled again with the yoke of bondage" girl 5:1


Blessings!

What i mean is that any preacher or pastor preaching tithes as a percentage of income is already abusing the biblical concept of tithes, no matter how you want to argue it tithing that is being practised and preached today is totally different from biblical tithing hence it is an abuse of the word of God and a FALSE doctrine.

FifiO:
@pilgrim.1
If I understand your point, tithing is a principle older than law but incorporated in the law. Abraham gave tithes instintively, or shall I say by the leading of God's Spirit. We should not feel compelled to tithe but as  Paul argues, it is good to give it since we understand that it is useful to the church as it was to the priests of the old testament,,  am I getting you right??

@Fifio,

No mind me, I don talk say sometimes my wahala too much.

Anyhow, you’re not far wrong from (infact, closer to) my persuasions on this matter. I’m sorry that it seemed at one point as though we were being careless to have let in rancour – but that was unintended, and I’m sure that Kunle would agree.

Now, the sum of what most of us have been saying are:

      1. there is nothing wrong with Christians tithing or not tithing

      2. to preach tithing in the NT needs to be properly balanced

      3. failure to balance this subject will lead many to become bitter

      4. such failure manifests where some leaders use Malachi 3 to ‘curse’ Christians

      5. besides, tithing is not all about money

      6. the real value of tithing is not “how much” but rather “what is”

      7. this value simply points to the ‘best part’ of all our offerings

      8. this is why tithes or any other offering is not a matter of how much %

      9. there is no verse in the NT (at least IMHO) where anything is required

    10. consequently, no compulsion, demand, or force is placed on us
           -  whether it is gifts or offerings of any kind.

For the other arguments advanced, my simple point is this: if we all agree that there is nothing wrong with tithing, then WHY is it making some people so bitter after admitting that nothing is wrong with it?

Anyway, I have learnt and am still learning from the fresh insights on the subject. Many blessings.

Fifio,

Honestly, do you two realise how much the rest of us (me at least!) are benefiting from these discussions?

I thot I was the only one learning from behind the scenes .

I think Pilgrim and Kunle are not too far from each other in what they believe. And I absolutely LOVE the way you've put it here, as this is also the conclusion I have on the matter

FifiO:
tithing is a principle older than law but incorporated in the law.
Abraham gave tithes instintively, or shall I say by the leading of God's Spirit.
We should not feel compelled to tithe but as  Paul argues, it is good to give it since we understand that it is useful to the church as it was to the priests of the old testament

The way I see it now, I will never feel guilty about not tithing(or giving) , but when I can i will being mindful of the needs of the church underwhich I recieve instructions.

I could not agree MORE with all the above! Blessings my sista.

pilgrim.1:
Now, the sum of what most of us have been saying are:

      1. there is nothing wrong with Christians tithing or not tithing

      2. to preach tithing in the NT needs to be properly balanced

      3. failure to balance this subject will lead many to become bitter

      4. such failure manifests where some leaders use Malachi 3 to ‘curse’ Christians

      5. besides, tithing is not all about money

      6. the real value of tithing is not “how much” but rather “what is”

      7. this value simply points to the ‘best part’ of all our offerings

      8. this is why tithes or any other offering is not a matter of how much %

      9. there is no verse in the NT (at least IMHO) where anything is required

    10. consequently, no compulsion, demand, or force is placed on us
           -  whether it is gifts or offerings of any kind.

The summation of the matter very well put. I think we cann all agree on the above. Right Kunle? you're not saying stuff that is too different from the above in my opinion from reading your entries.

@KunleOshob,

Let me quote you so that I don't run the risk of misreading your lines:
           ________________________________________________________________

            "any preacher or pastor preaching tithes as a percentage of income
             is already abusing the biblical concept of tithes
           ________________________________________________________________


But is that not the very thing that several times had been highlighted by several contributors already? Reminder (point #4) :

           _____________________________________________________

             . . . So, if someone is looking for exactly 10%, they have missed
             the very essence of what tithing points to –
             which is the ‘best/hallowed part’ of our offerings.
             This is why the NT does not stipulate an exact figure,
             but simply says that it should be ‘according to what a man has
             purposed in his heart’ (2 Cor. 9:7).
           _____________________________________________________


I'm sure that the point has been made several times that tithes is far more than money or the percentage (%) that anyone is trying to calculate. It does not always have to stick our minds on "how much" but rather should look at the spiritual value of that ministry.

Deuteronomy 26  Firstfruits and Tithes
12 When you have finished setting aside a tenth of all your produce in the third year, the year of the tithe, you shall give it to the Levite, the foreigner, the fatherless and the widow, so that they may eat in your towns and be satisfied. 13
Quote
Then say to the LORD your God: "I have removed from my house the sacred portion and have given it to the Levite, the foreigner, the fatherless and the widow, according to all you commanded. I have not turned aside from your commands nor have I forgotten any of them. 14 I have not eaten any of the sacred portion while I was in mourning, nor have I removed any of it while I was unclean, nor have I offered any of it to the dead. I have obeyed the LORD my God; I have done everything you commanded me.

i wish we can all say this every time we stand before God. tithing has nothing to do with more. we can never out give God. people give for various silly motives without giving God. my granny always said whatever you cantuse to serve and reverence God, you will use to serve the devil and men. we didnt bring nothing to this world and it is certain we will take nothing out of it so lets learn to travel lightly and hold thing lightly along this life's journey

As i have said several times, my problem is not with people giving whatever percentage of their income to the church be it 100%, my problem is that church which is morally oblidge to tell us the truth is misleading millions of people on this issue of tithes. A lot of people now have a second opinion courtesy of forums like this but the truth is that there are still millions of people out there being deceived into tithing. Pilgim.1 for instace tithes even though she knows it is not compulsory and that is very good but most people tithe becos they are manipulated into it. I believe people should be made to kno the truth and decide how much they want to give to God's work.

HOW DID YOU FORGET THIS SO SOON?

Roman Catholic Is Not A Church, But A Modernised Way Of Idolatry? on: Today at 11:48:53 AM
I would not join or continue contributing to this meaningless thread, i believe all denominations have their own faults and nobody as a right to condem the other. The fact that catholic leaders in history made mistakes or instituitionalized some wrong doctrine does not make them a cult. Today most of the younger generation attend pentecostal churches that preach what is not well grounded in scripture. we see them preach so many false doctine every day and take advantage of innocent christians yet it is the catholic church you people are persecuting. As far as i am concerned this persecution of the catholic church is a propanganda started by the pentecostal churches who are only interested in poaching their members and increasing the congregation of members in their own church for mostly material benefit. because i don't believe any geniune christian preacher would devote so much energy attacking another christian denomination that existed centuries before his own.

Quote
As christians we are all members of the body of christ and we should seek out what draws us together and not what divides us
. this is amazing coming from you. did you pray before you wrote this?

If i have my way as a christian, i would ban church denominations and ensure all churches come together under one umbrella (christ) but then that is impossible because what drives most of these churches is not the love of christ but personal benefit. I implore all true christians that have the fear of God in them to stop this craze demonizing the catholic church. No denomination is perfect.

KunleOshob:
As i have said several times, my problem is not with people giving whatever percentage of their income to the church be it 100%, my problem is that church which is morally oblidge to tell us the truth is misleading millions of people on this issue of tithes. A lot of people now have a second opinion courtesy of forums like this but the truth is that there are still millions of people out there being deceived into tithing. Pilgim.1 for instace tithes even though she knows it is not compulsory and that is very good but most people tithe because they are manipulated into it. I believe people should be made to kno the truth and decide how much they want to give to God's work.

[quote][/quote]

@poster:

I guess its ok to tithe or not to tithe. Why?

One part of the Bible (old Testament) says that our tithe is 10% of the first fruits of our earnings (Numbers 18:21-24, Deuteronomy 14:22-29) and that we're supposed to give at least that 10% to wherever God has said to do so.

But wait, the Bible also say (New Testament) Christians are told to give what is in their hearts for God loves a cheerful giver. 2 Cor 9:7

You see, tithes were part of the law that Jesus fulfilled, and is no longer binding on Christians.
Lev. 27:30; Gal 3:10-13

Cayon:
You see, tithes were part of the law that Jesus fulfilled, and is no longer binding on Christians.
Lev. 27:30; girl 3:10-13

Hi Cayon,

Tithes came before the Law; and what the Law did not originate, it cannot in this case nullify.

The real import of one's Tithes is not about how much we measure in percentage (%). The moment people get to understand that point, they will see what Abraham saw that moved him to offer tithes to melchizedek without a LAW.

What is the real import of Tithes?

It is simply what God refers to as 'the best part' or 'the hallowed part' of all our offerings, whatever they may be (which does not have to rest solely on money).

(A) our tithes are the hallowed things: [Deut. 26:12-14]

When thou hast made an end of tithing all the tithes of thine increase
the third year, which is the year of tithing, and hast given it unto
the Levite, the stranger, the fatherless, and the widow, that they may
eat within thy gates, and be filled;

Then thou shalt say before the LORD thy God, I have brought away
the hallowed things out of mine house, and also have given them unto
the Levite, and unto the stranger, to the fatherless, and to the widow,
according to all thy commandments which thou hast commanded me:
I have not transgressed thy commandments, neither have I forgotten them:

I have not eaten thereof in my mourning, neither have I taken away ought
thereof for any unclean use, nor given ought thereof for the dead: but I have
hearkened to the voice of the LORD my God, and have done according to
all that thou hast commanded me.


(B) our tithes are the hallowed things: [Numbers 18:12, 29, 30, 32]

All the best of the oil, and all the best of the wine, and of the wheat,
the firstfruits of them which they shall offer unto the LORD,
them have I given thee.

Out of all your gifts ye shall offer every heave offering of the LORD,
of all the best thereof, even the hallowed part thereof out of it.

Therefore thou shalt say unto them,
When ye have heaved the best thereof from it, then it shall be counted
unto the Levites as the increase of the threshingfloor,
and as the increase of the winepress.

And ye shall bear no sin by reason of it, when ye have heaved from it
the best of it: neither shall ye pollute the holy things of the children
of Israel, lest ye die.


People, your tithes are not a matter of "maybe/maybe not". Because the tithes are pointing to how the believer values his/her offering, that is why it was incorporated into the LAW; and the LAW could not nullify "the hallowed things" of any man's offering. The mistake people often make is to treat this very important matter with blithe unconcern - like a "common" and nonchallant aspect of our lives. This is why we have to look beyond the word "tithe" and examine Scripture to see its real value and how God has described it in Scripture. It is for this reason God does not ask for a particular percentage and wants to draw the heart of the believer by faith. Faith is the very thing that underscored Abraham's life (Galatians 3:7)

It is okay for the individual to choose what to do with their "best part/hallowed part" - to give the best/hallowed part, or to choose not to do so. I have consistently proffered that God will not force anyone to obey what He has ordained (1 Cor. 9:14). The principle of "cheerful giving" is what underscores your hallowed offerings. . . and if anyone chooses to "cheerfuly" reject to offer his/her "best" to God, He will not force such a person as to what to do.

Shalom.

pilgrim.1:
Now, the sum of what most of us have been saying are:

      1. there is nothing wrong with Christians tithing or not tithing

      2. to preach tithing in the NT needs to be properly balanced

      3. failure to balance this subject will lead many to become bitter

      4. such failure manifests where some leaders use Malachi 3 to ‘curse’ Christians

      5. besides, tithing is not all about money

      6. the real value of tithing is not “how much” but rather “what is”

      7. this value simply points to the ‘best part’ of all our offerings

      8. this is why tithes or any other offering is not a matter of how much %

      9. there is no verse in the NT (at least IMHO) where anything is required

    10. consequently, no compulsion, demand, or force is placed on us
           -  whether it is gifts or offerings of any kind.

For the other arguments advanced, my simple point is this: if we all agree that there is nothing wrong with tithing, then WHY is it making some people so bitter after admitting that nothing is wrong with it?

Anyway, I have learnt and am still learning from the fresh insights on the subject. Many blessings.

100% supported, BUT what readily comes to mind when the name TITHE is mentioned is TENT or 10% of something, if not neccessarily the % that matters as you claimed, I wonder how many pastors will agree with this.

However, could it be that early Christians were not inspired by the Holy Spirit to DIRECTLY mention, require, command, demand it from early Church and why no record of early church paying tithe until several, several  years later

Let's agree, Paul was refering to tithe in 1 Cor 9:13 but why was it so hard to mention the name directly as in Heb, mostly about the presthood of Jesus, Heb 7:1-end not excaltly or directly asking Christians to pay tithe.

I'm not drawing us back on this, but could it have been that the Apostles were not keen to the name TITHE though any % of ones income is welcome in support of the gospel, either 10% or 100%

I  think we can see from all passages submitted earlier, no DIRECT use of the name TITHE as new testament church form of giving, although one we can give tent or more of our income to Church as part of our service to God regularly, and as led by the Holy Spirit.

I'm trying to harmonize all I have learnt from this forum and the above issue seems yet to be addressed. Thanks

@sarmy
Tithe never had anything to do with income in biblical times, it was strictly farm produce (produce of the land or the tenth animal that passes under the rod). Search the bible well there is no where tite is described as a percent tage of income, not even Abraham's one off tithe that my darling Pilgrim is always reminding us of

sarmy:
I'm not drawing us back on this, but could it have been that the Apostles were not keen to the name TITHE[b] though any % of ones income[/b] is welcome in support of the gospel, either 10% or 100%

KunleOshob:
@sarmy
Tithe never had anything to do with income in biblical times, it was strictly farm produce (produce of the land or the tenth animal that passes under the rod). Search the bible well there is no where tite is described as a percent tage of income, not even Abraham's one off tithe that my darling Pilgrim is always reminding us of

Agree, but I think we can learn from that one off tithe of Abraham, giving a % of ones income to support God's work or less priviledged in society on regular basis is a fantastic principle for financial success, every child of God should be encouraged to do this (but not as a do or die affair) I think we have all agreed on this.

But, must we call the % we give to church TITHE?

(d) For instance, sarmy asked me a pointed question about using Malachi 3 to force[/color] people to tithe. I shared with him why my answer is NO; and opened up a few reasons why I don't think anyone is correct to curse any Christian. It is not in my place to castigate any pastor who does this - because by castigating them, I am doing the very same thing for which I accuse them!

pilgrim.1,

would you be kind enough to distinguish between forcing someone to do something and telling the person he is required to do it, where the person giving the instruction is in a position of authority over the other?

(e) I think it is more helpful for people to simply share, debate healthily, avoid uncouth accusations against anyone, and contribute questions that constructively critique our submissions. If this is not helpful, pilgrim.1 is not in the habit of castigating any pastor; for it is not in my place to judge anything before that time when Christ will do so (1 Cor. 4:5).

Have you considered very seriously 1 John 4 v. 1:
[i]Beloved, believe not every spirit, but [color=#990000]try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world.[/[/b]i]

There are similar injuctions in the Bible. You can see [b]Criticise Not
I would rather obey God's word rather than shy away from "castigating" a pastor dpeddling falsehood for the sake of mammon. I hope you remember God's wrath on disobedience in King Saul's case, despite his lame excuse of wanting to offer sacrifice and that of Jonah.
Stay blessed.

@sarmy,

How body? Thank you for always bringing in balanced questions to help us learn more about this subject; and no, I don't feel you're drawing us back.

sarmy:
However, could it be that early Christians were not inspired by the Holy Spirit to DIRECTLY mention, require, command, demand it from early Church and why no record of early church paying tithe until several, several years later

There are several questions there, and here are a few answers:

1. The Holy Spirit will not force anyone to do anything - and that is why it was not treated in the NT as a matter of what was "required", "commanded", or "demanded". The NT simply tells us that "there He receiveth them, of whom it is witnessed that He liveth" (Heb. 7:8). Our spiritual lives under the new covenant began by our "receiving" the Lord Jesus Christ (John 1:12) - God did not "force" or "demand" anyone to receive Jesus. In the same way, He will not force anyone to give anything for His Kingdom, which is why it is not a matter of compulsion for the Christian, even though He ordained it (1 Cor. 9:14).

2. Tithes were indeed mentioned by the early Christians - and we have seen it in the epistles to the Hebrews (again, it was the first point #1 I mentioned previously).

3. The Church gave tithes, but many people have not seen it. Surprised? Well, when you refer to 1 Corinthians 16:2, you will come to understand that Paul was directly referring to tithes for the simple reason that the Corinthians were wondering what to do about the issue. He noted in his second epistle that the Corinthians themselves were excellent givers and supporters of ministering to the saints (2 Corinthians 8), but he did not make it an issue of "commandment" (2 Cor. 8:8). In the next chapter 9, he again noted that their zeal had provoked very many others (v.1-2).

However, one needs seriously ask: if he already knew that they were excellent givers, why then would he have tried to give specific instructions in 1 Corinthians 16 and speak about HOW they were to lay aside something for the "ministry of the saints" (v.1-2) on the first of every week?!? Have you ever wondered what he meant by "as God hath prospered him" in verse 2? Compare this with other versions, such as the AMP which says:

    ". . put aside something and save it up
     as he has prospered [in proportion to what he is given]"

Although so many people today kick against this idea of "proportion", I have no qualms that the AMP captured the essence of what Paul was driving at. The apostle was not concerned with a particular amount in terms of 10%, 76.5% or even 100%. The principle is this: if you want to measure up anything, do it "in proportion to"how God has blessed you; but he went on to note that there were some who "have addicted themselves to the ministry of the saints" (verse 15). This is simply the undergirding point, that he was not particular about how much in %, but rather the spiritual value of such giving.

Now, a very important thing that we must observe here. When people to run encyclopedia Britannica or Wikipedia, I simply shake my head in pity. Have we so failed to realise that when these people quote from such sources, they are quoting only part of the history of Christianity and not what actually happened as observed in Scripture? This is why so many people are confusing TITHES for TAX when they are clearly not the same! But such secular sources have blurred the lines so that believers who are not keenly observant will just rush and post them as if those sources are defining the Christian faith! If you refer to those sources about the doctrines of Christian practice, you may come away feeling all the more confused about what actually defines your faith.

An example was quoted above where I noted that people are to much in a rush to quote such sources because they have failed to see that the article was referring to issues which happened "in the course of time" and as a result "the principle of payment of tithes was extended far beyond its original intention." If you rest your mind on such articles, they will obfuscate issues for you all the more, because those articles are not looking at what was the "original intention" of tithes - which was simply the ministry of the saints (1 Cor. 16:1).

Hmm, people. . . may God grant us sharp discernment to be careful how we read issues (Luke 10:26 - "how readest thou".

sarmy:
Let's agree, Paul was refering to tithe in 1 Cor 9:13 but why was it so hard to mention the name directly as in Heb, that was mostly about the presthood of Jesus, not excaltly or directly asking Christians to pay tithe.

Paul was not bogged down with a particular percentage - and I have often referenced an discussed this at length. The moment someone is looking for the word "tithe", the issue will be lost upon such a person and they will be pursuing calculations based on figures and percentages! That is not the way God has asked us to look at the value of tithes. I have already shared that the real import of tithes is simply "the best part" or "hallowed part" of all our offerings (see above).

sarmy:
I'm not drawing us back on this, but could it have been that the Apostles were not keen to the name TITHE though any % of ones income is welcome in support of the gospel, either 10% or 100%

The apostles were not keen to name anything specifically - and neith can anyone find the term "freewill offerings" in the NT, even though it appears in the OT. The difference is that they rather looked at the spiritual value of what was given, not the calculated figures.

sarmy:
I think we can see from all passages submitted earlier, no DIRECT use of the name TITHE as new testament church form of giving.

No direct use of the term "freewill offerings" either.

Blessings.

@KunleOshob
I am sorry for the statements I made yesterday.

@pilgrim.1
How are you?

@KunleOshob

my problem is that church which is morally oblidge to tell us the truth is misleading millions of people on this issue of tithes

My pastors still say every sunday " If you need a tithe envelope-" I havent heard much said by way of teaching about tithes lately but I take the above to mean that they are not yet aware of the implications of the shift in laws. I know you said that means they have no business being there but lets really be frank, there were so many errors in the history of the church which it is coming out of slowly. We have only come out of the dark era.So,I dont begrudge my pastors. The fact that we here in this forum have seen the light indicates that something is changing and one day soon the "error" of forced, or compulsory tithing will be in the past. Trust me, there will still be other new issues - until we come to the fulness of the stature of Christ.

@Pilgrim.1

For the other arguments advanced, my simple point is this: if we all agree that there is nothing wrong with tithing, then WHY is it making some people so bitter after admitting that nothing is wrong with it?

Simple reason. People feel betrayed by the wrong doctrines they have been taught by the very people  they trusted to nurture them. If I was in the church where a pastor proclaimed a curse on his members for failing to pay tithes, boy I would be pissed! I bet any one would too, even if they did not know what we here know. Afterall, who goes to church to recieve a curse? I dodge!

@ Sarmy,Pilgrim 1

I think we can see from all passages submitted earlier, no DIRECT use of the name TITHE as new testament church form of giving.

No direct use of the term "freewill offerings" either.

I think these are also very legit submissions, but does it really matter what we call them?
Okay, how about love offerings, giving by the Spirit,keep them coming-

Blessings!

@anonimi,

Thank you for calmly calling my attention to a few serious issues; and I see that you've added the link-wrap! Good one there!

anonimi:

(d) For instance, sarmy asked me a pointed question about using Malachi 3 to force people to tithe. I shared with him why my answer is NO; and opened up a few reasons why I don't think anyone is correct to curse any Christian. It is not in my place to castigate any pastor who does this - because by castigating them, I am doing the very same thing for which I accuse them!

pilgrim.1,

would you be kind enough to distinguish between forcing someone to do something and telling the person he is required to do it, where the person giving the instruction is in a position of authority over the other?

I think the point between "force" and "required" in the context of our discussions is simply the same. Let me refer you once again to what I stated earlier by repetition:

                ____________________________________________________________

                 'I don't think you have noticed how many people ackowledge that tithes
                 have nothing to do with the idea of ~

                           DEMAND,
                           COERSION,
                           COMPULSION,
                           FORCE,
                           CAJOLING,
                           MANIPULATION,
                           INDOCTRINATION,
                           . . . or any other ONOMATOMANIA!!
                ____________________________________________________________

Consequently, I also came back recently and noted that even the apostle Paul when dealing with this issue about the ministry of the saints, said plainly: "I speak not by commandment" (2 Cor. 8:8); even though he had told the same Corinthians that such an issue had been "ordained" by the Lord (1 Cor. 9:14). Is this some sort of "divine oxymoron"? No, and let me help to put it in perspective:

Under the new covenant, God does not force anyone anywhere to obey what He has ordained or commanded, because He seeks to draw out the heart of the believer by the leading of the Holy Spirit alone. In some very crucial matters such as the doctrine of truth versus heresies on such questions as the Person of Christ, the apostles were firm and would admit no difference of opinions on such events as people preaching "another Jesus" (2 Cor. 11:4) or a perverted Gospel (Galatians 1:8-9). The second instance is where we find that an anathema (curse) was called upon those going about with a perverted gospel - and when we search the Word, we know what exactly the nature of that perverted "gospel" is. In such matters, the apostles were firm.

But what about this particular issue as pertaining to the collection for the saints? Here, the apostles had just two balanced teachings on it:

(a) on the one hand, people are encouraged to give in support of the saints (both the poor, and the elders, as well as the ministers of the Gospel); and they noted that even where the Lord had ordained such a ministry, it is not to be forced upon anyone - for those who give are blessed, and there is no anathema upon those who reject giving tithes. The point is simply that the Kingdom of God is not a matter of eating and drinking (Rom. 14:17).

(b) on the other hand, people who give are asked to be careful to not be misled by those who are driven into ministry for filthy lucre's sake (Titus 1:11). Is it not remarkable that nowhere do the apostles use uncouth language to castigate or slur such men, even though what they are doing is wrong? Rather than be bogged down with such and become bitter, the apostles simply taught how to recognize those who are of "perverse disputings of men of corrupt minds" and we should withdraw from them (1 Tim. 6:3-6).

This is why I have learned two things:

      1. shut up and move on if I have no answers
          rather than suffer my mouth to sin

      2. share helpful insights where others are seeking
          and withdraw (or fold myself away) from perverse wranggling.

Dear brother, it is easy to spot others who are into the business of filthy lucre; but if we have nothing to offer that may be helpful ("wholesome words" - 1 Tim. 6:3), then we should not suffer our hearts to grow bitter for the sake of such men of "corrupt minds".

anonimi:
Have you considered very seriously 1 John 4 v. 1:
Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world.

There are similar injuctions in the Bible. You can see Criticise Not
I would rather obey God's word rather than shy away from "castigating" a pastor dpeddling falsehood for the sake of mammon. I hope you remember God's wrath on disobedience in King Saul's case, despite his lame excuse of wanting to offer sacrifice and that of Jonah.
Stay blessed.

I have considered the verses you recommended, and thank you so much.

However, I can't see it anywhere that God has granted me the ministry of castigating anyone. I have done it in the past, and believe me I was never refreshed by the Holy Spirit each time I did so. But after learning my lessons, I am very careful these days what I say to anybody and about anyone.

Even in Saul's case, after his error was pointed out, you will not find any Godly man castigating him. Surprised? Please calmly go and search and see for yourself. Yes, we may be angry at such men for their errors; but we remember that the Holy Spirit says we should "be angry but sin not".

And what about Jonah's case? No castigation there either! God gently exposes the prophet's anger and leaves him a question of the heart. Incidentally, that is one out of two books in the entire Bible that ends with a question! Beloved, no matter what we see in our day, let us always set out eyes and hearts on what God has stated, rather than on what men have done with that!

Shalom.

@Pilgrim,

Thanks my dear sister, I have been blessed, and learnt a lot from what we've discussed on this forum, I think many may not have problem paying tithe from all you've said in that summary BUT

I think you are yet to answer directly why the Apostles were not inspired by the Holy Spirit to DIRECTLY ordain or teach tithe to the early Church as a subject and why no record of early church paying tithe until several, several years later

1 Cor. 9:14, 1 Corinthians 16:2, 1 Cor. 16:1,  etc did not mention the term TITHE ( we only assume it was tithe, I'm OK with that)

Heb 7:1-end mentioned tithe but not DIRECTLY as a subject  that we should pay it (I have read that passage several times)

Paul discussed several other issues in the bible DIRECTLY e.g  Charity, Immorality, Speaking in tongue, women covering head, not speaking in Church etc why is TITHE not discussed as a subject DIRECTLY even by our Lord Jesus, and other apostles.

This will help us to know if the term TITHE is that important under new testament, or just GIVING as led by God, I learnt there are churches today that do not teach tithe but just GIVING.

Shalom

obinna5000:
@pilgrim.1
How are you?

Bros obinna500, I just dey. . . thank God for His daily mercies. And you?

@Fifio,

How body?

FifiO:
@Pilgrim.1

Simple reason. People feel betrayed by the wrong doctrines they have been taught by the very people they trusted to nurture them. If I was in the church where a pastor proclaimed a curse on his members for failing to pay tithes, boy I would be pissed! I bet any one would too, even if they did not know what we here know. Afterall, who goes to church to recieve a curse? I dodge!

Hmm, na wah! Should I even start to tell of the things I have heard from a few churches when I just came to Christ? My sis, I don hear worse things O! But my mouth no fit talk wetin my nose smell! Sure, I have heard very bitter things than "curses/cursed" from a few who have not handled this issue properly; but what about the things I have said in error about such men? I learnt that if I drive rough with my mouth at anyone, one day the Lord Himself will ask me to account for such rough-talk!

Today, by His grace, I've learnt to rest in His care and love, forgiveness and refreshment. God bless you plenty.

@pilgrim.1
I just dey OK! I thank God almighty. How r things?

@sarmy,

Good to know that you've been refreshed and gained a few inbetween, as I have also learned and gained from both the questions, the critiques (which I welcome wholeheartedly), as well the comments from various others.

sarmy:
I think you are yet to answer directly why the Apostles were not inspired by the Holy Spirit to DIRECTLY ordain or teach tithe to the early Church as a subject and why no record of early church paying tithe until several, several years later

1. I think the point has been made as to WHY the apostles were not too disturbed about the terms "tithe/tithes". The reason is simple: they wanted us to be more concerned with the spiritual import of tithing - which is simply the "hallowed" or "best" part of any offering we give. To set our eyes on "some calculated % of my income" is to miss the kernel of this ministry.

2. There are other terms even in the Old Testament that point to "tithes" -

           ~ 'all the best part' (Num. 18:29)

           ~ 'the heave offering' (Num. 18:24)

           ~ 'the hallowed part' (Num. 18:29)

           ~ 'the increase of the threshing floor' (Num. 18:30)

           ~ 'the increase of the winepress' (Num. 18:30)

           ~ 'the hallowed things' (Deut. 26:13, KJV, AMP)
              'the sacred portion' (NIV)
 
Please read all those references so that it is clear to you that I was not quoting them out of contexts. It is not the actual term we use that is important, whether ~

                 "tenths"
                 "tithes"
                 "hallowed"
                 "sacred"
                 "best"
                 "heave"

What is important is the real import of what it means. The moment we come back clogged with "1000000[size=14pt]%[/size]" or "how many percent", we simply miss the real value of what God is pointing our hearts to.

A further point: Have you noticed in Deuteronomy 26:12-13 that after the people have tithed, God gave them what to say:

            "Then thou shalt say before the LORD thy God,
             I have brought away the hallowed things out of mine house".

The question is this, why did God not simply ask them to say rather:

           "I have brought away the TITHE out of my house"?

The issue is simple: God is not asking us even in the OT to be so fastidious about 10%!! That is why He only asked the Levites to wave/heave 1% of the total value of Israel's tithes before His presence and call that 1% as the BEST part!

Just imagine: man values 10% as better than 1%; but with God, He values 1% over 1000%!! Why is this: it because every time you offer to Him, He looks at the heart value, not the figure value. That is why the Lord Jesus valued the widow's two mites much more than the many rich who cast in their much!

Beloved, it is a simple matter: there are many names that tithes are called - don't be stuck on just the one term "TITHES"; you will lose the value by so doing. If you want me to elaborate on where Jesus taught about the tithes, I shall gladly come back and share.

sarmy:
Paul discussed several other issues in the bible DIRECTLY e.g  Charity, Immorality, Speaking in tongue, women covering head, not speaking in Church etc why is TITHE not discussed as a subject DIRECTLY even by our Lord Jesus, and other apostles.

Uhm, Paul did not draw his doctrine of speaking in toungues from the Old Testament, even though it was mentioned or referenced in the OT. For one who is looking for particular terms, there is so much that can be lost if we keep up that exercise. I believe in the doctrine of "rapture", and I have no problem with anyone calling it the "catching away" of the saints. If we argue as to who is using the right and correct terms, we may lose so much and find ourselves unprepared for that glorious event!

Again, I believe in the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit - whether someone else comes and speaks of the same thing as the Godhead or the Trinity, we may lose so much arguing about terms rather than enjoy the divine fellowship God has called us into.

The terms are not that important to me - more than that is the blessing of knowing the real meaning of what tithes are pointing to.

sarmy:
This will help us to know if the term TITHE is that important under new testament, or just GIVING as led by God, I learnt there are churches today that do not teach tithe but just GIVING.

If those churches do not teach tithes, it may be because they don't want to offend anybody. That does not mean that just because we don't find the term "TITHE" as "giving", therefore we can't teach it - just as we don't find so many terms for what we believe in our Christian faith.

Blessings.