₦airaland Forum

@anonimi,

anonimi:
I am sure you do not equate the saints to God or do you

Please go back and read what I answered to instead of jumping the issue. Yomi was saying this:

________________________________________

Do we have instructions in the new testament to give “offerings” to God?
________________________________________

. . and my response was to quote the verses directly to show that the apostle INSTRUCTED such offerings to be collected. If it was a matter of such offerings made "to God", I also gave him the necessary verses in the body of my reposte.

anonimi:
I notice you conveniently skipped responding to my earlier post on verse 12 of Hebrews 7 and the importance of Christ's fulfilling work vis-a-vis the OT laws, including that of tithes which was operational until His death and ressurection. Still thinking about what response to spin

I don't have any responses to spin, for the simply reason that I'm not a broken record trying to repeat myself endlessly on the matter. How come you guys often conveniently duck the important mention of Abraham and Melchizedek and only see the LAW?

anonimi:
I believe it is also clear enough in your above quote that what you give is for those who minister and NOT God as the 419, fraudsters would want us to believe and put people in a guilt trap.

Lol, those who are feeling the "guilt trap" are the very ones who are conveniently selling their disobedience. My remedy is simple: if they don't want to give, they should simply save their pennies and not accuse people of what they themselves can't keep. I have repeatedly stated that we should be careful what we say about this matter and check to see that we don't accuse the Word just anyhow. I'm least interested about what men have turned it into; and that is why I refrain from arguing along such lines. The fraudsters or 419 are not my problem - and for those who always want to bury their minds on that, good luck to them.

anonimi:
You should check your other NT quotes to ascertain if the people were asked to give/gave to God or Jesus Christ specifically and not to fellow brethren in need as well as minister's basic needs (as opposed to luxury).

Making sweeping statements in ignorance was what I responded to. Checking the "other" verses simply states the point that Yomi was wrong in assuming extremes. There is a balance in Scripture; but often times people just assume a polarised position - and that is why the unnecessary accusations seem to occur those minds much more than what we should share for edification. Everyone is a "liar", a "thief", etc except them!

anonimi:
There are at least two things about the above quote.
First, you realise that burnt offerings/sacrifices were being offered to God under the OT and it was precisely the Levites who were offering bad quality sacrifices at His altar that the rebuke in Malachi was principally addressed to. You should read Malachi from Chapter 1 please. Thus the "offerings of God" should be understood in that context before Christ fulfilled the law as pointed out earlier with His ultimate and final sacrifice.

Dear anonimi, please calm down and read that passage again on the OFFERINGs of God in Luke 21:4!! That widow was not giving animals to be sacrificed - go back and find out what she gave!!

anonimi:
Secondly, Christ was teaching a key principle about giving, which is that it is not the absolute amount you give that matters but how it relates with your capacity to give, hence the widow was praised while the rich man was scolded. This same tenet is stated in Proverbs 11:24 "There is that scattereth, and yet increaseth; and there is that withholdeth more than is meet, but it tendeth to poverty."

I don't think I argued about the "principle". May I say this one more time?!? If anyone has been re-iterating anything about the "PRINCIPLE", at least you should know that I have been doing so!! Even lately, I stated it yet again (here please).

anonimi:
I hope you do understand that I and others who oppose requiring/requesting tithes of CHRISTians do not oppose giving to church activities so long as they are in line with the teachings, practice and standard set by Christ and his Apostles as recorded in the NT.

What I have seen so far and responded to is the lazy attitude of men who have rejected what the Word teaches and then come on board to preach their ignorance as if they just discovered something new. Ther hasn't been a consistency in such submissions like in Yomi's - and I highlighted an example where he was referring to "all commandments" while deploring the same thing!

I'm not fussed about anyone wanting to say something as long as they are humble enough to not assert what they don't know! Tough luck for those who always see this matter of giving as predicated on a "LAW/commandment of compulsion, force, cajoling". The same fellows then come back and admit to the same thing they set out initially to disdain! That is why I rolled my eyes at the end - these fellows should wake up and stop acting like kids!

Cheers.

@pilgrim

pilgrim.1:
Hmm, I have often asked those discussing this subject to look away from the idea of LAW. When people base all their argument of tithes on the LAW, they will never be able to see what came before the LAW and how that one act of Abraham's faith affected even his unborn generations. It beats me how people can bind their hearts and minds and make so much of the LAW of tithes without realizing that tithes did not originate with the LAW. Like I have sated again and again, if anyone does not want to give, instead of being angry and cause their mouths to sin against the Word, simply save their money and sidon look. No wahala in the matter.
God bless you.

pilgrim, I really appreciate your wisdom and knowledge especially in trying to proof this issue but I will like you to try and understand other views and be open minded, I've learnt from you from this conversation but I think most of the time you close your mind to others point of view.

No one is saying giving is not good, all we are saying is that it should be done as someone under grace not under law, the amount or percentage is not the problem but must be done with the right mind, not as being forced, threatened with hell fire etc quoting word of God out of context for support.

One other thing my sister, you said tithe precedes the law and we kept saying there are other things we can no longer enforce like circumstition, you did not respond, after all, Abraham circumcised his sons even before the law, should we now continue to enforce it as tithe is parallel to circumstition.

Lastly, as I said before, there is no any child of God who will not like to give to God, either 10% or more or even 100%, I think we should discourage using the word of God to force others to pay tithe, or that it started before the law and binding on all Christian, even when it is not the requirement for making heaven.

Since as they normally say it's for God, why are they so passionate about it more than some sinful acts of today and holliness, no matter what you do to make money if you bring tithe to church regularly, pastor will like you but if you don't pay, its the other way, I hope you know why.

One in Christ, Shalom!

@pilgrim.1

I must commend you for your insightful posts. Keep up the good work.

@KunleOshob

@sleeky mag
You people keep dancing round in circles and quoting the bible out of context. In deuteronomy 14 : 24& 25 you quoted, you deliberately left out verse 26 which said what you should use the money for. The money was meant to still purchase food and drinks (including wine and strong drinks which tithe preaching churches preach against) it also said you should eat the food(tithes) in God's presence. Now if tithe had been meant to be money, you would not have been required to use it to purchase food items talkless of consuming it yourself. Sleeky mag the fact that you deliberately omitted verse 26 which counters your wrong position on tithes mean that you know the truth but you just like pilgrim refuse to accept it. I don't think i would be available to keep on arguing back and forth on something that is soooooo glaring

i just didnt want to go into too much detail which was why i didnt have to go into verse 26. Look, the tithe being referred to in Deut 14:22-29 is the second tithe.

Verse 22.   Thou shalt truly tithe]  Meaning the second tithe which themselves were to eat, De 14:23, for there was a first tithe that was given to the Levites, out of which they paid a tenth part to the priests, Nu 18:24-28; Ne 10:37,38.   Then of that which remained, the owners separated a second tithe, which they ate before the Lord the first and second year; and in the third year it was given to the Levites and to the poor, De 14:28,29. In the fourth and fifth years it was eaten again by the owners, and in the sixth year was given to the poor.  The seventh year was a Sabbath to the land, and then all things were common, Ex 23:10,11.

Hebrews 7:18-19
18 The old rule is done away with. It was weak and useless. 19 The law didn't make anything perfect. Now a better hope has been given to us. That hope brings us near to God.

Give a Tenth of What You Produce

Deuteronomy 14: 22 - 24
22 Be sure to set apart a tenth of everything your fields produce each year. 23 Here are the things you should eat in the sight of the Lord your God. You should eat a tenth part of your grain, olive oil and fresh wine. You should also eat the male animals among your livestock that were born first to their mothers. Eat all of those things at the special place the Lord your God will choose. He will put his Name there. You will learn to have respect for him always.
24 But suppose the place the Lord will choose for his Name is too far away from you. And suppose your God has blessed you. And your tenth part is too heavy for you to carry. 25 Then sell it for silver. Take the silver with you. Go to the place the Lord your God will choose. 26 Use the silver to buy anything you like. It can be cattle or sheep. It can be any kind of wine. In fact, it can be anything else you wish. Then you and your family can eat there in the sight of the Lord your God. You can be filled with joy.

And, bless the King James version: verse 26

26And thou shalt bestow that money for whatsoever thy soul lusteth after, for oxen, or for sheep, or for wine, or for strong drink, or for whatsoever thy soul desireth: and thou shalt eat there before the LORD thy God, and thou shalt rejoice, thou, and thine household, ,

Perfecta!

.

Nimshi:
Hebrews 7:18-19
18 The old rule is done away with. It was weak and useless.

The "old rule" did not originate the concept and principle of tithes. Thus, Hebrews 7:8 reminds us to be mindful of Him who receives them, "of Whom it is witnessed that He liveth".

@sarmy,

sarmy:
@pilgrim
pilgrim, I really appreciate your wisdom and knowledge especially in trying to proof this issue but I will like you to try and understand other views and be open minded, I've learnt from you from this conversation but I think most of the time you close your mind to others point of view.

Thank you for your graciousness. To be fair, it appears that I sound 'closed minded' to other people's entries. Quite to the contrary. Often times I would have preferred to not say anything and let discussions progress with several inputs before I weigh in on the subject. However, it is true that I have been quite firm with some particular entries, and that is for one or two reasons:

    (a) because such discussants make unwarranted statements and assert them as "Scriptural"

    (b) because such discussants use very derogatory language against others inclined to tithe.

A case in point: Yomisays is not a new name on this matter; but we know he was wrong on several issues (a few of which I highlighted in my repostes) and made unwarranted statements as if they were what Scripture teaches. But what did this result in? You please visit his webpage and read some of the responses from his adulators! Everyone else who discusses issues with them are thieves, liars, ole, foolish, or engaged in manipulation! I'm not an authority or umpire on this matter; and others have pointed out a few things (quoting Galatians 6:6, 1 Timothy 5:17-18 and 1 Corinthians 9:11-15) to show him where he possibly might be wrong. But no! The default position is that such enquirers are necessarily more than wrong: they are thieves!

Such kinds of attitudes are reasons why I'm often firm when posting replies to such people. If they don't know, it were better to say 'I don't know' than to make unwarranted statements and assert them as what the Bible teaches.

sarmy:
No one is saying giving is not good, all we are saying is that it should be done as someone under grace not under law, the amount or percentage is not the problem but must be done with the right mind, not as being forced, threatened with hell fire etc quoting word of God out of context for support.

You will have noticed something consistent in my entries in this subject: I have often and again asked people to calm down and look away from the LAW and rather examine the PRINCIPLES - which no less is saying that we consider the grace behind the giving of tithes. But because many people start and remain on the LAW everytime when discussing this issue, they cannot see anything else. I sympathise with those who are under pastors that use the LAW to cajole, manipulate, and compel them to give anything (I mean "any" kind of giving - including free will offerings). However, those pastors do not define the Biblical position for us - and I'm quick to say that is not sufficient reason to refer to tithes as a lie, a fraud, or a false doctrine. Just because someone abuses something Scriptural does not warrant us to misname the very thing God has ordained for our blessing.

sarmy:
One other thing my sister, you said tithe precedes the law and we kept saying there are other things we can no longer enforce like circumstition, you did not respond, after all, Abraham circumcised his sons even before the law, should we now continue to enforce it as tithe is parallel to circumstition.

Lol, indeed I deliberately did not say a word thereto - because I have already examined that issue many times (if you want to go back to earlier entries on this thread). Perhaps occasion might serve us a good turn to look again at the issue if there are fresh questions.

sarmy:
Lastly, as I said before, there is no any child of God who will not like to give to God, either 10% or more or even 100%, I think we should discourage using the word of God to force others to pay tithe, or that it started before the law and binding on all Christian, even when it is not the requirement for making heaven.

You can be sure that I have always refrained from using the word "force" or even "binding" on anyone. Why? Because the Bible will not force you as a Christian to do anything! Even if the "Christian" wants to abuse his privileges, the Bible will not force or bind him otherwise. When the apostle noted that the Lord had ordained the very same thing for the Christian (1 Cor. 9:14), he did not argue to make it a compulsion or force or make it binding on anyone - indeed he stated clearly that it was not so written so that people would start feeling they must do it unto him (verse 15).

People who argue this, that, and the other, can very well save their pennies - it is not a compulsion that they should obey what the Lord had ordained (1 Cor. 9:14). When we meet Him, He will reward the arguments accordingly. One thing I know is that a contentious spirit against God's Word does not fetch a bright prospect (Rom. 2:8-9).

sarmy:
Since as they normally say it's for God, why are they so passionate about it more than some sinful acts of today and holliness, no matter what you do to make money if you bring tithe to church regularly, pastor will like you but if you don't pay, its the other way, I hope you know why.

I know why, my dear brother. Unfortunately, what most pastors do or say should not force anyone to take a position of disobedience to God's Word. The truth we know will help us be strong in His grace; but to let go of His Word because someone is abusing certain privileges is quite an unfortunate position to assume.

God bless you.

@sleekmag,

sleekymag:
@pilgrim.1

I must commend you for your insightful posts. Keep up the good work.

I appreciate your contributions as well and wish I could be as brief as yours. Sometimes I relax and feel that the thread should progress before I say something more.

Enjoy your Sunday.

I don't think I argued about the "principle". May I say this one more time?!? If anyone has been re-iterating anything about the "PRINCIPLE", at least you should know that I have been doing so!! Even lately, I stated it yet again (here please).

pilgrim.1

how do you do the link wrap as above? Thanks.

@anonimi,

How has your day been? I trust all's been great in all your endeavours.

anonimi:
how do you do the link wrap as above? Thanks.

Well, everyone does it, and I'm sure so many people will be able to give you the outline more concisely. Let me try anyhow.

If you want to link a webpage without writing it out in full, try this:

1. you can click on the 'Insert Hyperlink' above your reply page on Nairaland
or just manually create the hyperlink code by typing [ur[color=Black]l[/color]=[color=Black]][[/color]/url]

2. highlight the link and copy:
e.g., http://www.unexplained-mysteries.com/viewnews.php?id=136560

3. write your preferred title between the code boxes, such as ANONIMI'S QUERY - e.g.
[[color=Black]u[/color]rl]ANONIMI'S QUERY[/u[color=Black]rl[/color]]

4. insert the copied link after the "=" sign in the [url[color=Black]=][/color] part of your code, e.g:
[url=http://www.unexplained-mysteries.com/viewnews.php?id=136560]ANONIMI'S QUERY[/u[color=Black]rl[/color]]


By the time you get to this stage, you can then post it by clicking on the 'Reply' botton. When the page appears, it should give you the following:

ANONIMI'S QUERY

When any reader clicks on the link, it should take them to the page encoded in the hyperlink. If you colour the "ANONIMI'S QUERY" in the code, it will appear coloured and underlined, depending on the colour you applied. A few examples:

ANONIMI'S QUERY

ANONIMI'S QUERY

ANONIMI'S QUERY

ANONIMI'S QUERY

ANONIMI'S QUERY

You try it and see if it helps. I hope my assistnace has not misled you; but if you get stuck somewhere, give a shout back and I'll follow through . . . or better still, the code gurus in the house will come to our rescue.

Cheers.

as a good christian that is going by the commandements should pay tithe.

as a good christian that is going by the commandements should pay tithe.

Which/what commandments?

.

sis debora:
as a good Christian that is going by the commandments should pay tithe.

sis, There is no any commandment in the new testament for Christians to pay tithe, only freewill offering/giving, willingly, cheerfully and in LOVE not with penalty for not doing but with blessing if done with the right mind and intention. You can purpose how much you intend to give 5%, 10%, 50% or 100%, monthly, weekly or yearly. It's up to you as led by the spirit of God under His Grace.

Remain blessed

@sarmy,

sarmy:
sis, There is no any commandment in the new testament for Christians to pay tithe, only freewill offering/giving, willingly, cheerfully and in LOVE not with penalty for not doing but with blessing if done with the right mind and intention.

Lol, then there is no commandment to even give freewill offering/giving, willingly, cheerfully and etc.

Hmm, it would help everyone of us to calmly go back and read the scriptures again and again on this issue. Never assume that there is "NO" reference for anything until you know for sure that such a reference is not there. The best one can say is "I don't know, but am persuaded that. . ."; or "this is what I think".

To find out more on this subject, I recommend you study 1 Corinthians 9:9-11 closely.

Blessings.

@ pilgrim,

1 Corinthians 9:9-11 AMP version

    11If we have sown [the seed of] spiritual good among you, [is it too] much if we reap from your material benefits?
   
My sister, you are either a pastor or pastor's wife or to be, anyway, more blessing to you, I really appreciate all your inputs.

However, from the above verses of the scripture, there is no command statement in what Paul said, "is it too much if we reap from your material benefits, this could be freewill offering, pastors offering or freewill giving but definitely Paul was not asking for tithe, it he wanted it he could have stated it more clearly in any of his epistles.

A command is to direct with authority; give orders with consequences for disobedience, that is not found, such statement on tithe in the new testament but found in the old testament as in Mal:8-10, what we have is the direct opposite, give freely, willingly, cheerfully for God loves a cheerful giver and

2Cor 9:7
Every man according as he purposeth in his heart, so let him give; not grudgingly, or of necessity: for God loveth a cheerful giver. There is no anywhere in the new testament (Note:as far as I know) where there is command for christians to tithe (it was a command under the Law but not anymore under Grace)

As Paul said in the above passage, you can purpose/decide how much you intend to give 5%, 10%, 50% or 100%, monthly, weekly or yearly. It's up to you as led by the spirit of God under His Grace, this brings much more blessing than the old testament method of giving. Reason why some pastors still preach the old method is because they don't trust members will give enough.

Shalom

pilgrim.1:
@sarmy,

Lol, then there is no commandment to even give freewill offering/giving, willingly, cheerfully and etc.

Hmm, it would help everyone of us to calmly go back and read the scriptures again and again on this issue. Never assume that there is "NO" reference for anything until you know for sure that such a reference is not there. The best one can say is "I don't know, but am persuaded that. . ."; or "this is what I think".

To find out more on this subject, I recommend you study 1 Corinthians 9:9-11 closely.

Blessings.

My dear you should learn to quote scriptures in the bible in it's real context and also read passages to the end in other to get it's real meaning, not just isolated verses which can be used to confuse us and distort the real facts. for instance in the passage you quoted from verse 18 says:What then is the [actual] reward that I get? Just this: that in my preaching the good news (the Gospel), I may offer it [absolutely] free of expense [to anybody], not taking advantage of my rights and privileges [as a preacher] of the Gospel.    

 I wonder why our mordern day pastors would not copy this paul's example. However that is not to say that people should not give freelly to the church. it is just that your attmempt to quote the bible out of context needed to be responded to. Nobody in this post as said to date that it is wrong to give to the church, what we are complaining about is the manipulative, unscriptural and deceitful way ( which is mostly through a demand for tithes) a number of churches go about getting their congregation to part with their money.

pilgrim.1

Thanks for your response to my query. I will try it once i'm less busy and you will surely see the results here.

@anonimi,

anonimi:
pilgrim.1

Thanks for your response to my query. I will try it once i'm less busy and you will surely see the results here.

Good to know. Blessings.

KunleOshob:
what we are complaining about is the manipulative, unscriptural and deceitful way ( which is mostly through a demand for tithes) a number of churches go about getting their congregation to part with their money.

indulgence! some people love relationships that cost nothing that is the problem. first you don't go to church because the pastors will ask you money then you are on nairaland trying to twist scriptures you have never obeyed one word from.  the reason many people find it difficult to give is they don't have a relationship with the God they are supposed to be giving to  or they don't understand the principle of giving.

at a time like this when we se money begin to fail and loose its value as the bible have said  we all need to begin to trust God rather let all the unbelievers and unbelieving believers sow seeds of doubt and disobedience into your heart.  it is better to obey God than man.  we are almost wired to disobey rather than obey simple instructions.

God will never ask you what He has not given you.  we must learn to hear His voice in giving. how can a christian listen to people who obey their god telling them to kill others, hate and marry 4 wives and find problem Gods word.  the devil surely has a deceptive voice.

bible said talking about God in Psalms 50.  note  vs 12 very well.  we don't have anything we have not be given by God.

7 “O my people, listen as I speak.
     Here are my charges against you, O Israel:
     I am God, your God!
8 I have no complaint about your sacrifices
     or the burnt offerings you constantly offer.
9 But I do not need the bulls from your barns
     or the goats from your pens.
10 For all the animals of the forest are mine,
     and I own the cattle on a thousand hills.
11 I know every bird on the mountains,
     and all the animals of the field are mine.
12 [b]If I were hungry, I would not tell you,
     for all the world is mine and everything in it.[/b]
13 Do I eat the meat of bulls?
     Do I drink the blood of goats?
14 Make thankfulness your sacrifice to God,
     and keep the vows you made to the Most High.
15 Then call on me when you are in trouble,
     and I will rescue you,
     and you will give me glory.”

Exodus 19:5 'Now then, if you will indeed obey My voice and keep My covenant, then you shall be My own possession among all the peoples, for all the earth is Mine;   all the earth including the money in it.

Deuteronomy 10:14 "Behold, to the LORD your God belong heaven and the highest heavens, the earth and all that is in it.

Psalm 24:1 A Psalm of David. The earth is the LORD'S, and all it contains, The world, and those who dwell in it.

1 Corinthians 10:26 FOR THE EARTH IS THE LORD'S, AND ALL IT CONTAINS. (NASB ©1995)

If I were hungry, I would not tell thee: for the world is mine, and the fulness thereof
@ pilgrim1, please stop wasting your time trying to educate people whose mind are not open to learning.

New American Standard Bible (©1995)
"If I were hungry I would not tell you, For the world is Mine, and all it contains.

GOD'S WORD® Translation (©1995)
If I were hungry, I would not tell you, because the world and all that it contains are mine.

King James Bible
If I were hungry, I would not tell thee: for the world is mine, and the fulness thereof.

American King James Version
If I were hungry, I would not tell you: for the world is mine, and the fullness thereof.

American Standard Version
If I were hungry, I would not tell thee; For the world is mine, and the fulness thereof.

Bible in Basic English
If I had need of food, I would not give you word of it; for the earth is mine and all its wealth.

our God as revealed in the bible is not hungry He owns it all.  He could have stopped the money some of us hold so tightly from reaching us in the first place but He loves us so much.  

tithing or giving is never about money  but always about obedience or your understanding of what obedience to God will mean for your relationship with Him and where your plaace will be in relation to His wealth.  some people only love God with their  mouth but never with anything not even their time.

@KunleOshob,

How are you today?  

KunleOshob:
My dear you should learn to quote scriptures in the bible in it's real context and also read passages to the end in other to get it's real meaning, not just isolated verses which can be used to confuse us and distort the real facts.

Hmm, I only quoted a reference and did not even discuss it at all. How you then interprete my simply quoting that reference as distorting facts is a bit funny.

KunleOshob:
for instance in the passage you quoted from verse 18 says:

Lol, KunleOshob. . . look again my dear sir: I quoted 1 Cor. 9:9-11 - not from verse 18!!  If you wanted to discuss verse 18, no worries - all you needed to have done was share it with us rather than be driven to allege that I was quoting that verse to distort any facts when it does not even appear in my reference. Haa!

KunleOshob:
What then is the [actual] reward that I get? Just this: that in my preaching the good news (the Gospel), I may offer it [absolutely] free of expense [to anybody], not taking advantage of my rights and privileges [as a preacher] of the Gospel.

Thank you sir. But did you notice that the apostle knew it was his "rights and privileges" to be supported according to the issue in question? What you're bringing to our attention is that he did not use those rights, even though he did not deny anyone the same righst and privileges. Let me underscore this point by some verses within that chapter:


        1 Corinthians 9:14-15

        Even so hath the Lord ordained that they which preach the gospel
        should live of the gospel. But I have used none of these things:
        neither have I written these things, that it should be so done unto me:
        for it were better for me to die, than that any man should make
        my glorying void.

Get the point? Although he recognized that the Lord had ordained that they which preach the Gospel should live by it, and thus recognizing the same thing as his "rights and privileges", the point is that he did not use his rights - a personal choice he made for himself.

The beauty of the passge is that the very thing that many people today disdain and use in uncouth accusation against others is the very thing such accusers have deliberately refused to see in Scripture! The apostle recognizes that others who preach the Gospel had the "right" (or power) to this ministration; even so the apostles had even more rights to do so - yet, he had not used any such privileges nor accused others who do so as barawo (verse 12)! This is why I have often calmly asked that we be careful not to accuse other people unwittingly especially where we have not taken the time to study God's Word.

KunleOshob:
I wonder why our mordern day pastors would not copy this paul's example.

Maybe the accusers themselves need to learn not to be too driven to always accuse others.

KunleOshob:
However that is not to say that people should not give freelly to the church.

That is not to say that preachers of the Gospel are thieves, liars, manipulators, ole, barawo - simply because they use the "rights and privileges" which the Lord had ordained for that purpose. True, there are some who are hungry for filthy lucre (Titus 1:11); but we cannot always accuse everyone else every single time with all sorts of excuses.

KunleOshob:
it is just that your attmempt to quote the bible out of context needed to be responded to.

I'm grateful for such a response, thank you dear brother.

KunleOshob:
Nobody in this post as said to date that it is wrong to give to the church, what we are complaining about is the manipulative, unscriptural and deceitful way ( which is mostly through a demand for tithes) a number of churches go about getting their congregation to part with their money.

I don't think you have noticed how many people ackowledge that tithes have nothing to do with the idea of ~

         DEMAND,
         COERSION,
         COMPULSION,
         FORCE,
         CAJOLING,
         MANIPULATION,
         INDOCTRINATION,
         . . . or any other ONOMATOMANIA!!

The basic question is: "to tithe or not to tithe" - and though some have their mindset on a default idea that TITHE = LAW at every single time, they often fail to see these other issues. That is why my approach is simple: anything one pronounces against tithes immediately renders their arguments unbalanced when it comes to the hypocrisy of "let's just give freewill offerings". God nowhere DEMANDS freewill offerings from anyone as much as He does not demand tithes of anyone. Does your heart move you to give tithes and offerings? Amen - ride on and refrain from accusing others of what you don't know.

Shalom.

@sarmy,

My dear brother, thank you for your warm response. Please forgive me that I have not been as gracious in my repostes; but I'm learning everyday - and again thank you for your forebearance towards me.

sarmy:
@ pilgrim,

1 Corinthians 9:9-11 AMP version

11If we have sown [the seed of] spiritual good among you, [is it too] much if we reap from your material benefits?

My sister, you are either a pastor or pastor's wife or to be, anyway, more blessing to you, I really appreciate all your inputs.

Lol, . . none of the above O!! Although I wish my rascally husband-to-be was aiming to be a pastor!

sarmy:
However, from the above verses of the scripture, there is no command statement in what Paul said, "is it too much if we reap from your material benefits, this could be freewill offering, pastors offering or freewill giving but definitely Paul was not asking for tithe, it he wanted it he could have stated it more clearly in any of his epistles.

Okay O. I hear. Lol, I hope you know Scripture uses different terms for tithes? Me, I never see the terminologies of "pastors offering" or "freewill giving" yet - I still dey search. So at the moment, I will not assume any hubris or extremum here until I find those terms. Best I can say is: "pilgrim.1, just shut up until then!" Lol, you know already I'm just teasing ya.

sarmy:
A command is to direct with authority; give orders with consequences for disobedience, that is not found, such statement on tithe in the new testament

Okay, I hear. What then is meant by "Even so hath the Lord ORDAINED. . ." (1 Cor. 9:14)? Me, I don't want to assume that is a command of forcing anyone to do anything; but even if the Lord had ordained it as such, it does not appear to me that He forces anyone to give anything. Talk about consequences of disobedience to what He has ordained, He alone will judge at that Day (1 Cor. 4:5).

sarmy:
but found in the old testament as in Mal:8-10, what we have is the direct opposite, give freely, willingly, cheerfully for God loves a cheerful giver

Well, I don't think so, and will not force my persuasions on anybody. However, what I do know (or rather think) is that the same elements you mentioned about "give freely" or "willingly" etc., are already in the OT. Can I show some? Here:

Exodus 35:5
Take ye from among you an offering unto the LORD:
whosoever is of a willing heart, let him bring it,
an offering of the LORD; gold, and silver, and brass

Exodus 35:21
And they came, every one whose heart stirred him up,
and every one whom his spirit made willing, and they
brought the LORD'S offering to the work of the tabernacle
of the congregation, and for all his service, and for the holy garments.

Exodus 35:22
And they came, both men and women, as many as were willing hearted,
and brought bracelets, and earrings, and rings, and tablets,
all jewels of gold: and every man that offered offered
an offering of gold unto the LORD.

Leviticus 23:38
Beside the sabbaths of the LORD, and beside your gifts,
and beside all your vows, and beside all your freewill offerings,
which ye give unto the LORD.

Ezra 2:68 & 69
And some of the chief of the fathers, when they came to the house of the LORD
which is at Jerusalem, offered freely for the house of God to set it up in his place:
They gave after their ability unto the treasure of the work threescore and one
thousand drams of gold, and five thousand pound of silver, and one hundred priests'
garments.

Ezra 7:15
And to carry the silver and gold, which the king and his counsellors
have freely offered unto the God of Israel, whose habitation is in Jerusalem.

Well, [color=Black]d[/color]em plenty well-well - and the point is that right there in the OT we see that those who offered money or currency (gold, silver, brass and all jewels of gold) did so of a willing heart, not under compulsion or coersion, and they rejoiced in their hearts to have done so. This is why I often beg us all: go look well well before you talk for de matter. Cheerful and willing hearts were seen in freewill offerings in the OT; and for me as a Christian, I can understand why some have helped me to see what the Psalmist said:

Psalm 110:3
Thy people shall be willing in the day of thy power,
in the beauties of holiness from the womb of the morning:
thou hast the dew of thy youth.

Do the verses above help you as well?

sarmy:
and

2Cor 9:7
Every man according as he purposeth in his heart, so let him give; not grudgingly, or of necessity: for God loveth a cheerful giver. There is no anywhere in the new testament (Note:as far as I know) where there is command for christians to tithe (it was a command under the Law but not anymore under Grace)

Okay. No wahala. . . until we see am.

sarmy:
As Paul said in the above passage, you can purpose/decide how much you intend to give 5%, 10%, 50% or 100%, monthly, weekly or yearly. It's up to you as led by the spirit of God under His Grace, this brings much more blessing than the old testament method of giving.

But in the OT, there were profound blessings for giving as well, No?

sarmy:
Reason why some pastors still preach the old method is because they don't trust members will give enough.

Okay. However, in addition I might add: probably it is because they haven't seen the balanced and richness offered on this subject under the new covenant. I may be wrong, though.

God bless.

@anonimi,

Let me also bring out another point from our earlier discussion: I apologise for my firmness, even though you were trying to help us see a few matters by reposting from Yomisays.

One his own persuasions was this:

Yomisays: There may be a few ommissions, but note that none of the above is about “giving to God” (a very vague term, as I am not sure what God would do with money if anyone ever gave Him any).

Well, what I should have said was that it is not true that "giving to God" was a very vague term. True, whatever was being given in Scripture was handed over to the hands of men; but we know that God Himself who inspired the Word says clearly in unmistakable terms that such offerings or giving were made "unto God". I have cited a few above, and if it helps to point them out here again:

Exodus 35:22
And they came, both men and women, as many as were willing hearted,
and brought bracelets, and earrings, and rings, and tablets,
all jewels of gold: and every man that offered offered
an offering of gold unto the LORD.

Leviticus 23:38
Beside the sabbaths of the LORD, and beside your gifts,
and beside all your vows, and beside all your freewill offerings,
which ye give unto the LORD.

Ezra 7:15
And to carry the silver and gold, which the king and his counsellors
have freely offered unto the God of Israel, whose habitation is in Jerusalem.

Of course, there are many such references in Scripture; and I should have gently shared these with us. Yet, the point is that the clause "giving to God" is not a vague term in Scripture. As long as it was offered for His glory, albeit it passes from hand to men's hands, Scripture recognizes such givings and offerings as made "unto God".

Cheers.

@pilgrim.1
You must have been a vey sturborn and argumentative girl when you were young i sincerely hope your husband to be would be able to cope with your arguments

@KunleOshob,

KunleOshob:
@pilgrim.1
You must have been a vey sturborn and argumentative girl when you were young i sincerely hope your husband to be would be able to cope with your arguments

You are very correct - I was (sadly) as guilty as described! You can pray for me. . my wahala too much at times, and that is why sometimes I simply fold myself away for a while. Shalom.

pilgrim.1:
@KunleOshob,

You are very correct - I was (sadly) as guilty as described! You can pray for me. . my wahala too much at times, and that is why sometimes I simply fold myself away for a while. Shalom.

better a brilliant and clever wife than a foolsih one

just came across this now

[b]Rationale for rejected Offerings[/b]

Genesis 4: 3-7a. And in process of time it came to pass, that Cain brought of the fruit of the ground an offering unto the LORD. And Abel, he also brought of the firstlings of his flock and of the fat thereof. And the LORD had respect unto Abel and to his offering: But unto Cain and to his offering he had not respect. And Cain was very wroth, and his countenance fell. And the LORD said unto Cain, Why art thou wroth? And why is thy countenance fallen? If thou doest well, shall thou not be accepted? And if thou doest not well, sin lies at the door

Why would God accept the offering of one brother and the other He rejected? We serve and deal with an all Knowing All, All Present God, who knows our minds before a thought is formed or carried out. The motive behind our giving is what God uses to accept, reject, bless or even curse any giving. Every child of God should not be carefree in giving to God. The bible encourages us to give freely without grudges, under duress, 2 Corinthians 9:6-8 or for selfish reasons; Matthew 6:3.

In 1 Samuel 1:11. Until Hannah’s motive for wanting a child shifted from Peninnah unto God’s need for a prophet in Israel, did God answer her prayers and gave Samuel unto her. Are we giving for what we can get back from God or are we giving because we love the Lord for who He is in our lives? Our giving should be in response to the needs of our father, so we in turn can be endowed with Heavenly blessings.
Another reason why God would reject an offering is when we carry grudge in our hearts. The bible tells us in Matthew 5: 23-24 to settle matters before our offerings, and/or giving can be accepted. How many hours of the day has been lost in serving God, but yet not accepted? How much of your tithes and offerings has gone down the drain for non acceptance by God? There is enough wastage of our time, money, and service trying to please God when all He requires is our obedience;

Why would you allow an offence to reside in your heart knowing that your blessings could be hinder? If there is an offence, why not look into the offence rather than to the offender. Some offences are warnings from God; some are to prepare us for a higher ground; we all know that God uses the stupidity of man to conform the wise. By the way how would you measure your success or your maturity in the things of this world or in Christ without criticism or offences?

If everyone around you agrees with you on a project or on an argument, you will need to look into the multitude that you are surrounded with or to yourself for clarification; apart from God, our strength comes from those that are all around us. There is a saying that when two brothers/friends or colleagues whichever one it is, comes out of a room smiling, they have either been fooling themselves or lying to one another. The bottom line is that no one and l mean no one is big enough or should have control over your blessings.
We are in the days when we all need God in our lives, in our situations and in our society.

There is a time for prayer, a time for fasting, but also a time for self assessment in order to be in line with God’s promises. One could pray till kingdom come, or go on hunger strike, i.e. if fasting is not divinely administered, until the will of God is done, it might all be a futile effort. Some prayers are not answered, one, because they are prayed amidst or never went past the ceilings. All our efforts will be crowned with grace and mercy in Jesus Name.

In any offence, always make it a sense of duty to analyze the offence; is there a true to the offence? If there is, embark on a corrective measure, if there is none; settle the matter with the offender in a Godly manner. Whether an offence is justified of not, we are commanded to live in harmony and be at peace with all men. May the grace of God be sufficient for us all to accept what we have no control over and cast ALL at the feet of Jesus?

@JJYOU,

Thank you for the above.

pilgrim.1:
@JJYOU,

Thank you for the above.

you are welcome. my invoice is on its way. God bless you for your work. it is good to see you rightly divide the word, you are humble and know when to walk away. i trust you have the mind ans Spirit of Christ. that settles it for most GODLY MEN. beauty and brains are extras. the fairness of our God always see to that which doesn't hurt the eyes and the flesh (ego) everyman has.

may God bless and increase you.

@pilgrim,

I hope you will understand why I keep coming back to you on this subject, I really appreciate your time, just that I want to know all I'm yet to know, may God continue to bless you.

I 100% support giving, 10% of ones income to God should not be problem as a child of God,  but according to Paul, as one purposed in his heart which is as led by the Spirit not strictly by a percentage of ones income should one give to God, many have disagreed with this in relation to tithe, OK no problem  but,

Please, before I finally succumb, kindly clarify the following, with bible reference from the new testament if need be, either for or against. Thanks and God bless you.

1. What to pay as tithe (10% of gross income b/4 tax or net after tax including any other income or gifts)

2. When (monthly or weekly, regularly and consistently even when you are owing or having pressing financial needs, what about if you did not pay for a while, must you re-pay back)

3. Where to and how (local church, local pastor or those in need or as led by the Spirit of God)

4. If a percentage of ones income is given to the local church and some to less privileged in the body of Christ/society but not as tithe, would this be acceptable to God.

The word of God it truth, we shall know it and the truth shall set us free from any boundage.

Many Thanks

@sarmy,

sarmy:
@pilgrim,

I hope you will understand why I keep coming back to you on this subject, I really appreciate your time, just that I want to know all I'm yet to know, may God continue to bless you.

I 100% support giving, 10% of ones income to God should not be problem as a child of God, but according to Paul, as one purposed in his heart which is as led by the Spirit not strictly by a percentage of ones income should one give to God, many have disagreed with this in relation to tithe, OK no problem but,

Please, before I finally succumb, kindly clarify the following, with bible reference from the new testament if need be, either for or against. Thanks and God bless you.

1. What to pay as tithe (10% of gross income b/4 tax or net after tax including any other income or gifts)

2. When (monthly or weekly, regularly and consistently even when you are owing or having pressing financial needs, what about if you did not pay for a while, must you re-pay back)

3. Where to and how (local church, local pastor or those in need or as led by the Spirit of God)

4. If a percentage of ones income is given to the local church and some to less privileged in the body of Christ/society but not as tithe, would this be acceptable to God.

The word of God it truth, we shall know it and the truth shall set us free from any boundage.

Many Thanks

I must thank you for sharing those very interesting questions with us all. Later today I shall come back to share a few pointers which I have found helpful as regards those questions; but for the present, I have only one answer to all four questions you offered:

"Whatever argument you read or hear from men,
don't let such things decide what you would do.
As regards giving, let your heart be moved by
the Spirit of God: He is the authority above everyone else."

Let that be more valued than anything you may read from me; but I shall do my best to share my heart with you on the subject. God bless you much for His Name sake.
"

@JJYOU,

JJYOU:
you are welcome. my invoice is on its way.

Hahaha!! I don laugh till water jabo for my eyes! Kai! This guy, you're so funny with your wise sayings! Anyhow, thanks - and many blessings.

@sarmy
I am afraid pilgrim would not be able to answer your questions based on scripture, this is beuase there is no where in the bible (old or new testament) that tithing was described as a percentage of income. Biblical tithing as nothing to do with income unlike the fraudulent version practised today. Even Abraham that my darling pilgrim loves to quote so often did not tithe from his income. Biblical tithing was strictly farm produce meant to be eaten by the tither and shared with less priviledge people and levites. Even some hypocrites would try and make fabrications that they used farm produce in those days becos money wasn't yet in use, nothing could be further from thee truth. Money as been in use in the bible as far back as genesis. Deuteronomy 14:26 also clearly mentions money as regards to tithes and what the money should be used for.

@KunleOshob,

KunleOshob:
@sarmy
I am afraid pilgrim would not be able to answer your questions based on scripture, this is beuase there is no where in the bible (old or new testament) that tithing was described as a percentage of income.

Why you not let me land first before you remove the tarmac!
Hehe. . pls give me some time to come back and share naw. . abi?

God bless you brother, I'll come back and share more on the questions sarmy has asked.