₦airaland Forum

Hi @KunleOshob,

My weekend was splendid, thanks.   And yours?

KunleOshob:
You keep missing the point Pilgrim.1, we are not really opposed to tithing what we are opposed to is the lies and fallacies some preachers preach about "compulsory tithing" which is manipulation of scripture and aimed at de-frauding faithful christians of their hard earded income. We have no problem with people paying tithes out of the goodnss of their hearts to worship God or further his work.
How was your wekend?

Well, perhaps I had been missing the point - and I'm thankful for that grace to bring it to my notice. The point in all this was that on both sides of the divide on this issue, people have said things that are way too extreme and not helpful. If we are all of the mind that Christians can gladly give tithes, there would even be no need to have debated this and the thread would not have grown over a thousand replies.

In any case, I thought it might be helpful for people to see just one example of how extreme an opposer of tithe can be. Yet, if we look at other abuses, the story doesn't change. Whether it is freewill giving, contributions, donations, tithes, or whatever else it is called - there have always been abuses where people have been defrauded. Tithes is not the only or most serious matter that one should argue on this point. To keep tithes as the main focus of this abuse only results in disaffections between believers.

Other money-matters that people use to defraud others are far more than tithes. People should not keep harping against tithes as if it is the basis of every evil that people do to be sentenced to HELL. If people want to sound the alarm against money-frauds, there are many more examples that are far serious than this matter. Has anyone been watching TBN lately?

Thank you again, dear brother. . . and may God continue to refresh your heart in His grace.

You two, the issues you've provoked has not ended, don't shake hands just yet.

Look at this:

1.Tithe can be any amount: Guys, that's the first and biggest problem here.
As someone pointed out earlier, (& my Bible confirms it, AMP Gen 14:20), tithe is     means one-tenth, not 1%, not 35%, not even 100% is a tithe. Fullstop.
In fact, the isrealites paid 10% tithes,levites paid 10% tithe to Aaron, which was 1% of what the isrealites gave to him (Num 18:26-27), but ultimately no one paid 1% tithe to God.
So, exponge the word tithe, unless it is the 10th part, or 10%

2. Best part: Question; what is the best part of my N100,000 income? 10% cannot be the best part. 90% sounds "bester" to me, better still even 99%
Okay, lets adopt a different approach, say use ratios of 70:30,20:80,60:40, etc,etc then again the higher sum still looks best to me.
Lets consider further, what makes the bigger part the "best part" any? clean notes, or highest denomination of notes, or what? In O.T palance, where the giving was to be effected in kind, "best part" meant unblemished, spotless, never came under yoke,etc of the produce or animals.
Get it?, so a tithe had to be given of the best part( as was indeed required of all other offerings) but all the "best part" was not automatically tithe.

3. Freewill Offering : All offerings were regulated. So, freewill offering can only mean offering given freely rather than compulsorily required of God (this freewill offering had also to pass the "best part" test, by the way.)
So,again the tithe is not a freewill offering. So tithing was not done with a will of your own,you know,whatever quantity we please.So, insistence on calling it a tithe means it cannot be anything but 10% of the best part.

4. Heave Offering: This heave offering thingy, which I have looked up is explained in the AMP as 'whatever is taken out and kept of the offering made to me.' (Num 18:8.) Meaning all that was not literally burnt to God,or 'reserved from fire'(Num 18:9,17-18)Thus where they burnt the right breast, & right shoulder and fat, etc,etc that which was left and was permitted to Aaron and sons was a 'heave'. Also see where heave part was 'the first part of dough' from the cereal offering (Num 15:19,20,21*)
In anor sense, the part which was called a heave in the hand of isrealites was so called in the sense of " that part that is to be set apart to God, (whether as tithe or whatever other offering), or consecreted, or sanctified to God.
So, heave is not a tithe, though a tithe is a heave.

5. Hallowed part: Again, meaning removed from the bulk,set apart, etc,etc,etc

6. Justification for using the terms interchangeably?: None. There were so many diff offerings;burnt offering,drink offering, freewill offering,sin offering, wave offering (by the way, is that where they got 'give Jesus a wave offering'? lol
Okay, there's also cearal/meat offering, tresspass offering, peace offering,etc!
Point here;besides all these, a tithe had to be given.
See Deut 12:6 where they are listed out seperately.

*Even if these terms could be used interchangeably, why single out the word "tithe" to brand all offerings, including those given freely?

And  now someone will say: But tithes came before the law!

True, but like Jesus would say: "what is that to you(follow me)"
Translated in naija, "how e take concern you,do your own"

Abraham paid tithe without being obligated to, and jacob his grandson even did too. Okay,so what if Isaac did not pay tithes?? we're not told whether he did or not.
Maybe he just did not feel 'led'? Was that a problem?

How about if say,Joshua decieded that he did not feel 'led' to pay tithes? that is, after God gave moses the laws including tithing? what then? I vote trouble for joshua.
See my point? Anyone who insists on paying a "tithe" does so necessarily under the law.

So,
-Abraham to moses, no law of tithing, no promise of blessing, no curse for withholding.
-moses to Jesus, law of tithing, promise of blessing,curses for withholding
-After 'the entering of Jesus into a new priesthood and mediating of a new covenant', promise vanished, curses vanished, blessed by nature.(No, not old testament promises but "far better" promises which we can begin to fathom by reference to the old testament)
*Ugo 2u

Having said the above, next question: Did Jesus pay tithes?
Agreed, we are not told so expressly, but we can suppose that he did in all probability pay tithes.
1. Jesus was a jew and not a christian
2. Jews obey the law of moses. If anyone had the ability to keep that law inside out, that would be Jesus.
3. If Jesus paid taxes to Ceasar, wouldnt He "give to God what was God's"?
4. If Jesus did not pay tithes, I tell you, the pharisees would not let us hear the end of it, yet we see nothing of their many accusations relating to tithes.

Next question:If indeed Jesus paid tithes, why did he?
1. Because Abraham did (by faith)?
2. Because the law of moses required it?

To answer,remember that Jesus was a jew by natural descent. Jews obeyed the law of moses. So, Jesus paid tithes because-----

Next question: If Jesus indeed paid tithes why not just shut up and pay it? After all we are in the 'Isreal of God" because of our spiritual descent through Christ.Right?

" For the priesthood being changed, there is made of necessity a change also of the law" Heb 7:12

                                                   NOT MY WORDS.

NEW TESTAMENT TITHING

All the mention of people actually doing the act of tithing is found in the synoptic gospels, that is before the entering of Jesus into a new priesthood and our entering into the new covenant. Matt 23:23, Luke 11:42, Luke 18: 12

Frankly, I too never could see this subject further than Luke 11:42 & Matt 23:23 and I used to think that it meant Jesus was sanctioning tithes. Yes, the fact that he mentions it must mean that tithe was the reality of those times, afterall he must have been paying his tithes regularly, but he was doing more than that in these particular scriptures. He was condemning their hypocrisy in paying tithes and leaving other matters of the law undone. That is, selective obedience.

As for Luke 18:12 , Pilgrim 1, how could he condemn the young man if he himself was paying tithes? Friend, this infact only strenghtens the arguement that Jesus himself did pay tithes. For, why did the rich  young man think him good otherwise? If Jesus didnt obey laws which even he (the young man) did?!

Now, in Hebrew, tithes is mentioned only in relation to Paul's arguement showing how that Jesus was a kind of ' Priest of priests', and that his priesthood was far superior to that of Levite. Heb 7:v.5,6,8,9

Come to think of it, who did the Apostles pay tithes to AD, the authorities trying to kill them? Who did the early christians pay tithes to? the apostles who were not of the priesthood and couldnt take holy things?(read about Korah, Dathan and Ahiram in Num 16:27)

Mnh, I wonder if anyone makes sense of these too? Whatever we give should not be called tithes. Fullstop.[/b]This is not just a quarel with the wrong application of the word,as I have tried to show here, but it is simply recogniising that the term is not applicable to us [b]at all anymore than we can bring in our sin offering,tresspass offering, burnt, or cereal offering, or whatever!
Afterall, Malachi 3:20 talks about robbing God in 'Tithes' and 'Offerings'.

Can anyone see my point? I'm just saying that if we dropped the concept of tithes all together, (not to please people, but because it has lost its relevance long ago) we'D be moving on.
As for giving to God, its the nature of the christian.

@KunleOshob

Bros, I see your point better now. The church indeed fell into a lot of error. No wonder that era has been called "dark".
But dont loose sight of your arguement now, whatever we give is not a tithe!

@JeSoul

Sista, follow? Or, am I on my own now?

Blessings!

@Fifio
Mnh, I wonder if anyone makes sense of these too? Whatever we give should not be called tithes. Fullstop.This is not just a quarel with the wrong application of the word,as I have tried to show here, but it is simply recogniising that the term is not applicable to us at all anymore than we can bring in our sin offering,tresspass offering, burnt, or cereal offering, or whatever!
Afterall, Malachi 3:20 talks about robbing God in 'Tithes' and 'Offerings'.

Whatever we give should not be called tithes. Fullstop. Thanks Fifio

FifiO:
@JeSoul

Sista, follow? Or, am I on my own now?

Blessings!

lol I tried to follow my dear but I saw after a while it was getting redundant, I think everyone is in essence saying the same thing. But TV did a fantastic job of condensing the main points into simple lines. I agree with every letter, consonant, syllable and full stop in this quote:

TV01:
1. Tithing is permissable, but not mandatory - and like most opponents, opposition is to those that would make it mandatory, not tithing per se
2. I believe that in the fullness of NT living, it is redundant and with time one would see that. But why force it? Hence, Christian liberty
3. It cannot be justified/enforced under the law and the prophets or based on something else and then enforced by same
4. Abrahams sole instance was/is not a pattern or ordinance. Abrahams faith is the only pointer for NT Christians.
5. Confers no distinct or unique blessings over one who simply gives - whatever amount/frequency - with the right posture
6. I don't actually agee that God is obliged to respond to our giving in any form on the basis of some set pattern or return
7. I don 't believe that God ranks giving or distinguishes giving types or gifts/offerings and then responds accordingly
8. NT giving is predicated on need, also noting
9. the offering/worship element - #1459 - but in the NT dispensation I see no real examples of that, although I stand to be corrected.
10. Following on from 8 & 9, I'D be really interested to hear how one would worship God directly with any physical gift in this dispensation. New thread?

As for the pts you've raised in yours last entry, some of the answers given by TV negate the need for questions like whats "the Best part" etc as for the other questions, I think I'll leave that to the others to chop n analyze n respond.

For me it is very simple, give as you've determined in you heart to do, according to your means and as your love for God inspires you to do. Kapish. No need for all the vernacular gymnastics cos I feel we're complicating something that's really very simple.

anyways, how are ya girl?

Hi all,

I am almost falling off my chair with these games I read here. Maybe people have to go back a few pages and re-read issues before making anything redundant.

What actually amazes me is that after arguing back and forth, we all now come back condenscending to the very same highlights we have tried to once ridicule. I only went into detail because I knew it would come back to this same point: "we are all agreed". May I ask: agreed on "what", precisely?

You see, rather than be tedious over this matter, perhaps we need to be reminded that people have adopted extreme positions on this subject - and the post showing the man who condemned tithers to hell is just an example. What essentially would I "agree" with such a thinker? That the fellow is any better than those who call a "curse" on non-tithers? Haa!

It is not recently we began to state that tithing or any kind of giving in the NT is not made mandatory to anyone. We kept saying so on so many pages - but NO, our friends were too occupied with their own tradition to even listen at any point. That was why I asked anonimi directly if he thought Yomisays had any handle on this matter. Why? For the simple reason that he was following the very same extremum from the guy who condemned tithers to HELL! Oh, sorry. . . I was to "agree" with that, yes?

If people do not appreciate the meaning of tithes as is taught in Scripture, no worries. But why often refer to tithes as FRAUD? The compromise here was for them to have kept forcing that idea until they lost the steam, and now come back saying we did not think it was "mandatory" - as if that was breaking news and has not been stated so clearly so many times.

Make una enjoy. . I guess the same worries would have remained if no one ever drew our attention to those who condemn tithers to HELL.

@FifiO,

FifiO:
You two, the issues you've provoked has not ended, don't shake hands just yet.

Lol, as for me, I no dey spend eternity on any issues "provoked". . . and my handshake still remains.

FifiO:
1.Tithe can be any amount: Guys, that's the first and biggest problem here.

It is not a big problem - just calmly go and study the matter and you will see it.

FifiO:
In fact, the isrealites paid 10% tithes,levites paid 10% tithe to Aaron, which was 1% of what the isrealites gave to him (Num 18:26-27), but ultimately no one paid 1% tithe to God.
So, exponge the word tithe, unless it is the 10th part, or 10%

You're funny! I have small kweshuns. .

   (a) where did the Levites pay tithes to Aaron in Numbers 18:26-27?!?

   (b) so your 1% is the same thing as 10%?!?

You see, it seems the problem we have in the Body of Christ is this attitude of reading issues too much in a haste and missing the essential features of what we're reading. I don't want to be tedious, and I'm not harping on you, FifiO. . . but here is just one case that persuades me that we often jump to conclusions on so many matters. So, please kindly quote out Numbers 18:26-27 and show us where the Levites paid 10% to Aaron. That will be helpful, and then just perhaps it might help you go back and revise your submissions on the other points you had raised.

Shalom.

Hi All,

I appreciate and applaud the brotherly way the conversation is progressing. Now to work;

Did Jesus pay tithes?

I doubt it, he was a carpenter by profession and not from a land owning family that I can tell. The tithe was always on agricultural/land based produce. Livestock or arable crops. It was never money, so the poor, disenfranchised etc would not be liable or considered in default.

Indeed, tithe was in part meant to cater for such. It makes little sense to demand a tithe from those whom it was meant for. Or insist on a tithe of a poor persons recipt of the tithe distribution?? Although a heartfelt freewill offering in appreciation would be kind of cute  !

Extreme?

It's extreme to claim curses accrue for not paying tithe, it's also lie.

It's extreme to claim hell for those who pay, but if you do pay as a mandatory obligation based on the law, it's very dangerous, why needlessly fall from grace.

However I'm convinced that God leads those who are seeking him. I was mandatory tithings biggest proponent. I waged war on non-payers, even those who paid, but questioned if it should be net. It was one of the first things God delivered me from as I sought Him, and I was'nt even asking about it.

If a true seeker pays a law based tithe ignorantly, I know God will deliver such a one as they seek Him.

Hell for those who knowingly warp the scriptures to enforce a mandatory tithe? That would depend on your definition of hell and it's purpose. Don't lets go there, at least not on this thread. But there is still the "falling from grace" penalty for such, no?

Could we perhaps take it further, with the following posers, or others that contributors may have?

Why don't Catholics, Anglicans, JW or others pay tithe
What is the tithe used for
Is it's use biblically prescribed
What would happen if it was eliminated and all giving became freewill and disbursement became needs based?

God bless
TV

Hi Pilgrim,

It's difficult to accept that TITHE can be 1% or 10% or that the % does not really matter

Tithe is widely known as tenth of a thing or 1/10 of something

Numbers 18:26-27 NIV version
26 "Speak to the Levites and say to them: 'When you receive from the Israelites the tithe I give you as your inheritance, you must present a tenth of that tithe as the LORD's offering. 27 Your offering will be reckoned to you as grain from the threshing floor or juice from the winepress


In as much as children of God (NT) can give to God as blessed by Him, there is no reason why it MUST be called tithe b/4 it's acceptable to God.

None of the early churches named their giving TITHE, absolutely none. Thanks

Remain blessed.

@TV01,

TV01:
Did Jesus pay tithes?

I doubt it, he was a carpenter by profession and not from a land owning family that I can tell. The tithe was always on agricultural/land based produce. Livestock or arable crops. It was never money, so the poor, disenfranchised etc would not be liable or considered in default.

My dear brother, I urge you to please go back and spend some time on this matter and not to just be cemented on one assumption, no matter how many times you think you have read it. I am begging you, because you may have no opportunity to come back and shy away from this assertion if your errors are pointed out. Let's not be too much in haste to understand issues.

TV01:
Indeed, tithe was in part meant to cater for such. It makes little sense to demand a tithe from those whom it was meant for.

My brother, try and go back and see it O. . . you may be arguing from a secular humanistic ideology and not actually seeing what is there. I am begging.

TV01:
Or insist on a tithe of a poor persons recipt of the tithe distribution?? Although a heartfelt freewill offering in appreciation would be kind of cute !

Is this now a matter of 'kinda cute' thingy that we have no interest to look into the Word? I'm just wondering.

TV01:
Extreme?

It's extreme to claim curses accrue for not paying tithe, it's also lie.

Please, please and please - go back and see that the extremum is applicable to both those arguing for and against tithes in Scripture. I have given an example already - there are so many others I could easily repost here, but I don't want to scare anyone to see what tithe-antagonists have said about their brethren.

TV01:
It's extreme to claim hell for those who pay, but if you do pay as a mandatory obligation based on the law, it's very dangerous, why needlessly fall from grace.

I don't think it is healthy to keep repeating this issue ad hominem - we have stated it since last year 2007 that it is not MANDATORY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! To keep harping on what nobody is saying is not helping the health of this discussion.


Regards.

@sarmy,

sarmy:
Hi Pilgrim,

It's difficult to accept that TITHE can be 1% or 10% or that the % does not really matter

Tithe is widely known as tenth of a thing or 1/10 of something

Numbers 18:26-27 NIV version
26 "Speak to the Levites and say to them: 'When you receive from the Israelites the tithe I give you as your inheritance, you must present a tenth of that tithe as the LORD's offering. 27 Your offering will be reckoned to you as grain from the threshing floor or juice from the winepress

Lol. . . okay, since you and FifiO and a few of us are often making a mistake here, I'll come back and share. The verse that Fifio (and the rest of us) have been looking for is verse 28 of Numbers 18.

That is why I have been holding on for now. I'll reply soonest. Cheers.

@sarmy,

Okay. . . I've just a few moments to while away; so here:

sarmy:
It's difficult to accept that TITHE can be 1% or 10% or that the % does not really matter

So, what in your view is TITHE? I have no problem seeing what it is in Scripture; and I don't think that I have so far been saying that it doesn't matter. What I have done so far are two things:

(a) refrain from staying on a particular percentage (1% or 10%)-
because that is not what is paramount in the tithes.

(b) engage on the meaning of tithes, rather than just seeing
only a traditional definition of it as "10%".

If people say it doesn't matter, I won't (and haven't) pushed the matter - because I know for sure they would still come back sooner than later to say it is difficult to see it any other way. That is why I have simply tried to leave matters in God's hands and let Him show us what we are not seeing. . . afterall, we all learn from each person's contribution.

sarmy:
Tithe is widely known as tenth of a thing or 1/10 of something

No wahala. . . as you continue to study it, you will come to see things and then I wonder what you would say later on.

sarmy:
Numbers 18:26-27 NIV version
26 "Speak to the Levites and say to them: 'When you receive from the Israelites the tithe I give you as your inheritance, you must present a tenth of that tithe as the LORD's offering. 27 Your offering will be reckoned to you as grain from the threshing floor or juice from the winepress


In as much as children of God (NT) can give to God as blessed by Him, there is no reason why it MUST be called tithe b/4 it's acceptable to God.

No wahala. . there's no reason why anyone would want to call it any other term and still be vexed by it. We are now used to the recurring phrase "just give". . as we get along we shall see how very misleading such a concept is. For now, I won't push the matter.

sarmy:
None of the early churches named their giving TITHE, absolutely none. Thanks

NONE of the early churches named their giving by any term - go and read it and find any. Again, none of the early churches used the terms we use to speak about so many things in Christianity - and we still believe in and practise those things, NO?

I've appealed, dear brother. . as long as we keep searching for names, terms, %, frequency, LAW, etc about this matter, the further it will continue to confuse us until we set our eyes beyond those ordinary matters and seek the real meaning of what we are discussing. Does it not have any meaning at all? If not, end of story - we can as well throw the whole thing over the bridge and live as we choose, No?

Blessings.

Okay, good people. . . I've had a good laugh, and I was not supposed to do so. Please forgive me - knowledge is given to us by God to help one another, and not dampen the spirits of our loved ones. Would you be gracious to pat this silly pilly on the head (even konks sef are welcome)!

First, FifiO. . no vex - I wanted you to go back and see the verses again and study it closely before drawing that inference. The verse you were actually looking for was verse 28 of Numbers 18, which you did not quote. Yes, indeed: the Levites gave a part of the heave offering to Aaron the priest, but have you checked carefully what they gave? You said it was 10%, and explained that as -

"which was 1% of what the isrealites gave to him (Num 18:26-27)"

That was why I asked if 1% was the same as 10%? We may say that they could be the same; and so we would be making the mistake of assuming that it was either 1% or 10% . . or we are not sure. Ah, someone might say, it was 1% when considered from Aaron's point of view - my question would be: would Aaron be counting that as Israel's tithes or as the tithes of the Levites? No matter how one slices it, where exactly is the 1% and 10%?

As far as the real value is concerned, I'll come back again and point out where they are - still in that Numbers 18, which you probably missed and therefore assumed that we expounge the idea of any 'hallowed' part in all the offering. No wahala, I'll try to come back and quote them out.

Regards.

Pilgrim1
itz bin ages can u come 2 yahoochat now?

Hi lelele,

I owe you a lot of apologies - and I'll explain when I light up at YIM. Thanks for being so patient with me.

pilgrim.1:
Hi all,

I am almost falling off my chair with these games I read here. Maybe people have to go back a few pages and re-read issues before making anything redundant.

What actually amazes me is that after arguing back and forth, we all now come back condenscending to the very same highlights we have tried to once ridicule. I only went into detail because I knew it would come back to this same point: "we are all agreed". May I ask: agreed on "what", precisely?

Hehe Pilgrim it's okay sis, don't get defensive cos I wasn't taking a shot at you with my "redundant" comment  . From my vantage point, you all agree on this:

1. Tithing is permissable, but not mandatory - and like most opponents, opposition is to those that would make it mandatory, not tithing per se
3. It cannot be justified/enforced under the law

These we can all agree on, abi I'm wrong?  

Now as for the "extremes" that you mentioned, I do agree with you its wrong to take either end of the spectrum. And I suppose part of your gripe is to get a few others to accept that?  
 

It is not recently we began to state that tithing or any kind of giving in the NT is not made mandatory to anyone. We kept saying so on so many pages - but NO, our friends were too occupied with their own tradition to even listen at any point.

A few of us recognized that from following this very animated thread for pages now , part of why I said things were being repeated, its just that with the sheer volume of other points being raised the essence of that fact has been lost n buried and given way to regressing to 10% or 1% or this offering or that offering.
   Discussion is good and profitable, I can tell you many will benefit from the in-depth analysis you and others have done. To simple ol' me, we're complicating this issue much more than it really is - 2Cor 9 could not have said it better:
Remember this: Whoever sows sparingly will also reap sparingly, and whoever sows generously will also reap generously. Each man should give what he has decided in his heart to give, not reluctantly or under compulsion, for God loves a cheerful giver.

Blessings.
_{Fifio see as you pulled me into this discussion eh}

@Pilgrim
I've appealed, dear brother. . as long as we keep searching for names, terms, %, frequency, LAW, etc about this matter, the further it will continue to confuse us until we set our eyes beyond those ordinary matters and seek the real meaning of what we are discussing. Does it not have any meaning at all? If not, end of story - we can as well throw the whole thing over the bridge and live as we choose, No?

I'm trying very hard to see beyond the ordinary, especially from your perspective, reason why I kept coming back to you.

It seems you've got a kind of revelation of it and also trying very hard to explain it. Is there a mystery to that name tithe and from your perspective, how do you define tithe (I'm sorry if this has been mentioned b/4)

Hi Sis' P,

pilgrim.1:
My dear brother, I urge you to please go back and spend some time on this matter and not to just be cemented on one assumption, no matter how many times you think you have read it. I am begging you, because you may have no opportunity to come back and shy away from this assertion if your errors are pointed out. Let's not be too much in haste to understand issues.

It was always on farm produce, not on money. There was a clause about converting to money for long journeys, but it was not based on monetary income.

I won't shy away. I believe it's necessary to state ones position clearly and clarify if required, which I'm happy to do. If undecided or in doubt, one should also say so. However, if you can show differently, I'm all ears.

pilgrim.1:
My brother, try and go back and see it O. . . you may be arguing from a secular humanistic ideology and not actually seeing what is there. I am begging.

Please feel free to correct - as opposed to assert - if I am. Don't beg, just show. As mentioned, I'm all ears.

pilgrim.1:
Please, please and please - go back and see that the extremum is applicable to both those arguing for and against tithes in Scripture. I have given an example already - there are so many others I could easily repost here, but I don't want to scare anyone to see what tithe-antagonists have said about their brethren.

The discussion has always been about an obligation to tithe. I don't recall - although I may be wrong - anyone who was against tithing attaching curses to the practise. Not on this thread anyway.

However, I stand by the fact that, making tithing an obligation and doing so on the basis of the mosaic law could be very dangerous. And to knowingly enforce tithing on that basis cannot be condoned or considered merely extreme.

God bless
TV

@sarmy,

sarmy:
I'm trying very hard to see beyond the ordinary, especially from your perspective, reason why I kept coming back to you.

It seems you've got a kind of revelation of it and also trying very hard to explain it. Is there a mystery to that name tithe and from your perspective, how do you define tithe (I'm sorry if this has been mentioned b/4)

There's nothing to be apologetic about. The one thing I've often drawn the attention of the reader to is what has been highlight in yours. The other question you raised will be answered subsequently.

Blessings.

JeSoul:
Hehe Pilgrim it's okay sis, don't get defensive because I wasn't taking a shot at you with my "redundant" comment . From my vantage point, you all agree on this:

These we can all agree on, abi I'm wrong?

Now as for the "extremes" that you mentioned, I do agree with you its wrong to take either end of the spectrum. And I suppose part of your gripe is to get a few others to accept that?
A few of us recognized that from following this very animated thread for pages now , part of why I said things were being repeated, its just that with the sheer volume of other points being raised the essence of that fact has been lost n buried and given way to regressing to 10% or 1% or this offering or that offering.

@Jesoul,

Lol, I wasn't trying to be defensive about anything; nor was I trying to make anyone bend to my persuasions or just "accept" anything. I believe there's a balance on this matter, and that's what I've been trying to share. If going into details was sort of making the discussion cumbersome, perhaps I should just let it be until much, much later.

Blessings.

sarmy:
It seems you've got a kind of revelation of it and also trying very hard to explain it. Is there a mystery to that name tithe and from your perspective, how do you define tithe (I'm sorry if this has been mentioned b/4)

Yes 0! All this talk of deeper meaning, allowing God to show us what we are not seeing, hallowed part etc etc. This would suggest a revelation of sorts or at least an insight/understanding that we are not seeing.

But no problem. I would therefore request that you share! If you cannot share for some reason, why go there? If it's divine say so, if you cannot reveal it, advise. If it's your own study or by dint of scholarship, again, I would exhort you to share. If you recieved it from someone, pray tell and reveal your source and provenance. But why keep us in suspense or attempt to spiritualise it?

A true revelation would be bourne out by scripture. Easily, logically, unambiguously, obviously even. After it had been pointed out and it would leave no room for gainsaying. If by sound scholarship, again any postulation would stand on it's own merits, fit well with scripture and not jar with other doctrine.

And I don't think balance is a big issue here. The discussion has not revolved around "exreme positions". It's the meaning, basis, validity, practicality, use, scriptural narrative, examples, form and many other things that have been chewed on and mulled over on this thread.

We eagerly await this revelation/insight/scholarship piece/teaching .

Hi TV01,

TV01:
Yes 0! All this talk of deeper meaning, allowing God to show us what we are not seeing, hallowed part etc etc. This would suggest a revelation of sorts or at least an insight/understanding that we are not seeing.

But no problem. I would therefore request that you share! If you cannot share for some reason, why go there? If it's divine say so, if you cannot reveal it, advise. If it's your own study or by dint of scholarship, again, I would exhort you to share.

If all these are mere symptoms of a restlessness you should clearly say so. How many times do you have to keep harping on issues like this as if you are largely unware that they have been dealt with? This is why tedious repetitions are not helping this discussion - I already have shared on these matters, and posted links in direct response to your own queries:

       https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria/topic-272.1312.html#msg2908410

       https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria/topic-272.1344.html#msg2918203 (repetitions)

       https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria/topic-272.1376.html#msg2918691 (summary outline)

       https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria/topic-272.1376.html#msg2921847 (again detailed)

       https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria/topic-272.1376.html#msg2922746 (reiterated)

      https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria/topic-272.1216.html#msg2884413

      https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria/topic-272.1248.html#msg2885787 (succinct here)

      https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria/topic-272.1248.html#msg2888222 (reiterated)

      https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria/topic-272.1248.html#msg2888480 (addressed again)

      https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria/topic-272.1248.html#msg2888555 (again outlined)

If after sharing on all these repeated queries and people simply are not interested, it is not a worry at all - I have often said that I wasn't "trying to make anyone bend to my persuasions or just accept anything".

The least I expected anyone to do was go to those same references from Scripture that I offered and show that what I pointed out was not even written in those texts - is that too much to ask? Instead of dismissing them out of hand and then resort to all this euphemistic games, one would have expected issues are discussed as we find them in the Word. If people are not willing to do so, I have offered to just let the matter be for the meantime.

Regards.

@JeSoul

I'm doing just fine, &you?

Actually, all that I have tried to do is to grapple with some points raised at some earlier part of this thread, the way I see it now.I think I skimmed over those to arrive at my first conclusion. The point being that those who wish "to tithe" must not make a discretion call.
I see I am on my own now,  no offence taken though.
Maybe at anor time, in anor place, put differently you may see it too? or not?
Learning is a continous thing.

And I'm glad I got you in the midst of the storm, ah ah

@Pilgrim.1
my dear Sista, thanks for that. You see, I was getting worked up by the sacarsm I felt coming from yours.You see, we don't all have to agree on ALL points, or even disagree on ALL points, unless we are arguing for the sake of arguments only.

Without an iota of pride, I think I have been first to admit that these discussions have been shaping my views on "tithes". At one point I tried to sum up what I was learning from the two major views and I put that here because I believe this is a place to share.
Nevertheless, as I  continued to weigh the arguments and turn to the Bible,I found my understanding changing. You see, I am here to learn from, and share with everyone else. So, I also took the priveledge to share my Thoughts as they evolved.
No shame in saying, "look, I was at such-and-such a place but now I am here"??

Please always remember that when we put out our arguments, its for others to see, reason and come to a conclusion which we usually hope aligns with ours- not to win the arguments but because we believe our stand is corrrect and we're trying to share it for others to benefit.

No games here, we I am learning.

1% V. 10%
Not the same at all. You are not following me then? My point was that they're not the same, which is why nothing else qualifies as 'tithes' in my view, whether it be more than 10% or less. Only 10% is a tithe. (that is, assuming any one wants to follow the law of tithes, then there's no question of discretion.)

Now, I personally don't think this thing is a life and death, heaven and hell issue but that of works- see, 1Cor 3:13-15*
Under the law, do it wrong and you would have been 'robbing God'. And thats the problem with allowing discretion in because by and large, while it would be safe to give more, in that 10% would still be tithes ( as in old testament palance, I think that after giving a tithe of 10% they could also give freewill offerings in addition.) giving less would be more tacky.
The ultimate argument is that since 'tithe' is of the law, the rules of the law should apply.

Heb 18:26-27

I really thot I'D included v.28 which explains further how the tithe they gave to God was supposed to get to him c/o Aaron***

But you could have been kind enough to simply correct that, at least for the sake of someone who may want to check it out for them selves.

Anyways, Blessings!

@ TV01

Did Jesus pay tithes? Valid points you raised there. Many thanks, I didnt see that that way before. But if money was simply not in contemplation then Jesus did not pay tithes as such. The pharisees in Luke 11: 42, Matt 23:23 were rich and probably owned farms of mint, etc. The rich man too had 'estates' and possibly farms and could pay tithes of these too.
No wonder I had trouble understanding what the "best part" of my N100,000 income was!

Having reached this conclusion, then Jesus did not refuse to pay tithes, because he wanted to disobey the law of moses but it just did not apply to him. Thanks again for that insight.

Blessings!

@pilgrim
You can now see i am not the only one that has problems with your submissions, the truth is that you have said a lot on this thread but then again you have said nothing the problem being that you keep dancing around in circles and you never hit the nail on the head and if at all you have any point it is always lost in your lenghty posts. All the links(your previous posts) you provided don't say anything, they are merely form without substance and lacking in sound scriptural basis. You would have to do much better and be more precise if you are going to get your message across. Sarmy asked you a precise question which required a precise answer ( what is yout definition of tithes?) and you avoided answering the[b] very simple [/b] question, the reason being your definition of tithes obviously does not have any scriptural basis and your defining it here in concrete trems would only ridicle your position hence your decision to avoid answering.

@all members
This tithe issue is getting too much. Let the discussion end here.
This topic is becoming a fighting arena.
Peace. Stay blessed.

@KunleOshob,

Good morning. I trust you've been blessed all the while.

KunleOshob:
@pilgrim
You can now see i am not the only one that has problems with your submissions, the truth is that you have said a lot on this thread but then again you have said nothing the problem being that you keep dancing around in circles and you never hit the nail on the head and if at all you have any point it is always lost in your lenghty posts. All the links(your previous posts) you provided don't say anything, they are merely form without substance and lacking in sound scriptural basis.

Kunle bros, I actually would not have wanted to reply your ideas above - because it is quite dishonest. Partisan loyalty from people who refuse to read issues is not the same thing as being honest - and that was why I had wanted to leave this issue until people confuse themselves all over again.

If you and several people do not want to see the point in my inputs, no wahala. But to come back and repeat the same things I have dealt with and then keep harping on what nobody is saying here is actually a bore. WHAT precisely were the questions? And what precisely did I not answer thereto? Even so, what have you guys actually done in going back to those Scripture references and point out that what I quoted and stated are NOT written in those verses? Has any one of you shown any such obligation to do so? No. But then you come back alleging that I have said nothing - as if those links are opening to blank pages.

KunleOshob:
You would have to do much better and be more precise if you are going to get your message across.

I have done so. I only went into detail when people stared asking a lot of questions they had carried with them for quite a while - questions which they had before I posted anything here. If the several appeals I raised that we face the Word and not the slurs went largely unheeded, what is the worry in the matter now that you assume your problems have been about what I posted? What exactly have I been saying since last year 2007?!? Is it not the same thing over and over and over again?!? People did not pay attention to them, and that is why I simply wanted to chill out and let them get as confused on the issue instead of coming back playing these euphemistic games of 'pilgrim.1 you are saying nothing!'

If it has blessed those who are always bitter about this matter, all well and good. Bitterness does not carry us anywhere - and that was the first thing I started pointing out. I find it very tedious and funny that all the while I was discussing issues from Scripture, the lot I read from you and those opposed to tithing are just repeated castigation against men who have derailed - as if that was helping your views. When I posted just one example of how very hideous antagonists can be in this matter, you guys smarted up and came back with the idea that nobody has been taking an extreme position.

One thing with me is this: I can be firm when needs be, and I'm not ashamed to state what I believe, be that ever so passionate. What I shy away from is duplicity and euphemistic games from our brethren. If we are all saying that TITHING is Christian Liberty (as TV01 graciously and aptly put it), my question is this: WHY THEN HAVE WE BEEN ARGUING at all?!? Why not let Christians who tithe to enjoy that liberty instead of using that as a platform to attack others?

I'm sorry if I sound really firm this morning: I'm not upset even then. It's just that I have offered to be left out of this games for now and concentrate on other issues. . . until such a time when occasion may invite inputs from me. If the heat rages on here, I might as well go to another thread and share why pilgrim.1 is a tither without anyone coercing her to do so.

KunleOshob:
Sarmy asked you a precise question which required a precise answer ( what is yout definition of tithes?) and you avoided answering the[b] very simple [/b] question, the reason being your definition of tithes obviously does not have any scriptural basis and your defining it here in concrete trems would only ridicle your position hence your decision to avoid answering.

I promised I was going to come back and answer that question - and I have done so in many other posts previously - that was why I clearly repeatedly posted those links!!!!! I don't shy away from questions - brief where I can help it, detailed where more questions come. if you're worried about not reading answers in mine, where have you or anonimi answered the few questions I have often asked you repeatedly?

Bros Kunle, again like I said. . . pilgrim.1 could take a chill for now so that nobody misreads me as being upset. I'm going to be very firm here because I don't think these games are helping anyone here - not you, not me, not any other. I apologise upfront if I have to be - but until you guys settle down and get to grips with your summations, just don't take any notice of me till then.

Much grace.

That was why I asked if 1% was the same as 10%? We may say that they could be the same; and so we would be making the mistake of assuming that it was either 1% or 10% . .   or we are not sure. Ah, someone might say, it was 1% when considered from Aaron's point of view - my question would be: would Aaron be counting that as Israel's tithes or as the tithes of the Levites?

I dont assume it's any thing other than 10%. You know you first raised the issue of 1% and I had to go and check it up and this is how I understood what I read:

*Isreal gave God 10% tithes
*Levite gave God 10% tithes (c/o Aaron)
*No one gave God 1%
 1% comes up only in relative terms.

No matter how one slices it, where exactly is the 1% and 10%?

A tithe means, not is,ten parts of something, or 10% of something. 1% is relative,and was actually originally raised by you. we have only tried to reply you on that ppoint.
As per the word "mandatory", I think what everyone is saying is that it is not a must that we must pay tithes.
1. Pay tithes, under the law of moses
2. Dont pay tithe, under the law of liberty

However we look at it, there will be a trying of how we have handled it, rightly or wrongly.
So those who dont believe in tithing are like " why tell us we must?- why make it mandatory?"

And those who believe in tithing any sum are like "its not mandatory to give any particular sum"

That's where it seems like everyone is saying the same thing in a disturbingly different way.
Blessings!

Dear FifiO,

FifiO:
@Pilgrim.1
my dear Sista, thanks for that. You see, I was getting worked up by the sacarsm I felt coming from yours.You see, we don't all have to agree on ALL points, or even disagree on ALL points, unless we are arguing for the sake of arguments only.

Without an iota of pride, I think I have been first to admit that these discussions have been shaping my views on "tithes". At one point I tried to sum up what I was learning from the two major views and I put that here because I believe this is a place to share.

I again apologise - you're not the only person who thought I was being sarcastic, whereas I was not being so. To share a point, soon after I made an indirect inference to your earlier input, you can't imagine the number of friends who called my attention to it, one lady even saying that she had gained soooooo much from my insight until I "messed it up with your tone". That's why I came back and apologised and offered them that I would take a chill so that others would come and share as well, since I did not think this thread was all about me to win any point anyway.

But I was calling trouble for myself for asking to take a chill. . . because so many people came back again with queries, and my dear friend even went so far as to 'konk' me with allegation of "showing off". My reply to her was simple: I would thenceforth be firm, if that would help people come back to reason that the issues being repeatedly trumped up were unnecessary.

Look again at the questions being asked: and then ask yourself in all honesty if I had ducked any single question? If on the other hand people are saying I was saying nothing at all and rather dancing around the questions, where have they gone back to those references and quoted them directly to show that the several things I highlighted were not so written there - particularly as to the meaning of the tithes rather than just the %? When I highlighted your quote of Numbers 18:26-27, I already knew the verse you were looking for; and had to come back when friends said that I was not being fair to you - which was why I posted that it was verse 28! Why? Because I cared enough to read what you were saying, go back to Scripture to check it out, and then come back online to share points based on your submission. If I did not think you were correct, I pointed it out and showed it as well; where I agreed with you, I also pointed out the same.

We can all help this very important matter by being fair to ourselves - where we agree, we do so; where we disagree, we do so. We don't have to quarrel about anything, keep harping on issues that are not even there, scuttle around queries while claiming that others are not answering our questions, and refrain from using uncouth language on any pastor who abuses the subject (for the simple reason that we are all guilty on either side of the divide with extremes). If later on, anyone is interested, I would be all too glad to share why I tithe without anyone forcing or demanding it of me.

I do hope you can forgive my tone and hope we can find a more enabling atmosphere to talk.

Shalom.

@FifiO,

FifiO:
I don't assume it's any thing other than 10%. You know you first raised the issue of 1% and I had to go and check it up and this is how I understood what I read:

*Isreal gave God 10% tithes
*Levite gave God 10% tithes (c/o Aaron)
*No one gave God 1%
1% comes up only in relative terms.

Indeed I raised the issue of 1% in relation to the idea that many people are stuck on a percentage as if that is all there is to the meaning of tithe. Why did I do so? Because in absolute terms, the Levites had no income, and that which they offered was merely 1% of the value of Israel's heave offering (both Israel and Levi had heave offering - and the part that was Israel's was simply 1% when it was waved, and not 10%). Now, since that point was not clear, I made reference to what is known as "the tithe of the tithes" in Nehemiah 10:38. We all have various understanding about this; but what or how do we translate this latter case as 10% of 10%, Fifio?

FifiO:
A tithe means, not is,ten parts of something, or 10% of something. 1% is relative,and was actually originally raised by you. we have only tried to reply you on that ppoint.

Please see the case of Nehemiah 10:38 and help us digest the 10% of 10% - which in that case was not relative, because it was not the tithes of the Levites, but the tithes of Israel that was taken into the Treasury (please go and see it). How do you make this latter case a "relative" issue if not that we would be neglecting the fact that it was actually Israel's tithes there, and not the tithes of the Levites? Is 10% of 10% still equal to 10%?

This was why I made a point simply to say that I am not one of those who is stuck on fastidiously shlepping the idea that tithes in all references has to be 10% every single time. I only pointed that out to enable others see beyond the % and go one to its value! people think it is the conscience of the believer that actually makes it valuable - and my response was simple: it was God Himself who places the value on it. hence, when we see it how He sees it, our perceptions will be better helped.

FifiO:
As per the word "mandatory", I think what everyone is saying is that it is not a must that we must pay tithes.
1. Pay tithes, under the law of moses
2. don't pay tithe, under the law of liberty

As anyone wishes. I have said again and again since last year that I don't argue tithes based on the LAW. Do I post you the several links to show how many times I have said so?

FifiO:
However we look at it, there will be a trying of how we have handled it, rightly or wrongly.
So those who don't believe in tithing are like " why tell us we must?- why make it mandatory?"

That's not the issue, FifiO. Those who don't believe in tithing have said very sad things about tithing and tithers - that's the issue. If antagonists have simply shared that it is only a matter of liberty, this thread would have passed on. Why refer to tithers as thieves, manipulators, fraudsters, etc just to prove that they do not believe in tithing? I still have several examples I could refer to where antagonists have said worse than the one who condemned tithers to HELL for simply tithing! What kind of attitude is that, despite the fact that those of us who tithe have been saying for ages that it is NOT compulsory?

FifiO:
And those who believe in tithing any sum are like "its not mandatory to give any particular sum"

See?

FifiO:
That's where it seems like everyone is saying the same thing in a disturbingly different way.
Blessings!

Bo, bless you and enjoy.

Dear Pilgrim,

I know how you feel and really appreciate all your efforts regarding this subject, may God continue to grant you more knowledge and wisdom, including those that have disagreed with you one way or the other, not to ridicule your submissions but so we can all make informed decisions

Some of the assertions made by Kunle were not meant to discredit your efforts but I think to enable you backup your concept of tithe with a more DIRECT scripture passages

Like some of the questions I asked you, a more direct answer to them would have gone a long way in clarifying how I understand your concept of tithe as in the following.

Please correct any of them if assumed wrongly or add more if needed, I don’t have all the passages to support them but I think at one time or the other you have done that.

1. Tithe was ordained by God pre-mosaic law (Abraham tithed)
2. To be given to those that minister to God or for God’s word propagation (Melkizedek)
3. Beyond the law, designed as a mystery so God can bless His people (Melkizedek blessed Abraham)
4. Not compulsory, but whoever needs God’s divine blessing can tap into it (Abraham / Jacob did)
5. Not necessarily 10% exactly or the percentage that matters, but quality of the proportion (the best part)
6. Other giving accepted by God but Tithe is primarily ordained by God to sustain His work and for Him to keep releasing His blessing (OT/NT alike)
7. Those who are not tithing will not be punished but they are not connected to the mystery

Reason why I said it seems like a revelation, one can not support this DIRECTLY from the scriptures but if one adds some scriptures together like you did, it’s possible to see beyong ordinary/letters and see this as NT concept of tithe.

Not many will agree with this concept and for the fact that none of the early churches directly used the word TITHE to represent any of the giving; one may assume this is another ploy to make children of God give more than ordinary just ‘giving’

I don't have any problem with this concept, since it's giving by His grace not by a do or die. Most children of God will give their best to God to show His love and goodness.

Shalom.

pilgrim.1:
That's not the issue, FifiO. Those who don't believe in tithing have said very sad things about tithing and tithers - that's the issue. If antagonists have simply shared that it is only a matter of liberty, this thread would have passed on. Why refer to tithers as thieves, manipulators, fraudsters, etc just to prove that they do not believe in tithing? <skip>despite the fact that those of us who tithe have been saying for ages that it is NOT compulsory?

It seems you are the one missing the point all this while and that explains why you have been going on & on saying the same thing over and over again.
Go through all the posts of those of us opposed to preachers (in partcular) and others in general who tell those they are in a position to influence that tithes are compulsory/obligatory/required/obedience to God/carries a curse if not done (or blessing if done).
Without mincing words and with all seriousness, any preacher who says such a thing is a fraudulent person, no matter how many miracles he claims to perform in Christ's name.
I hope the distinction is clear enough for you now.