natasha:

some white garment churches in Nigeria known for being very fetish in nature do the same thing in service.

Tell me what exactly you mean by "fetish".

@ natasha

girls who attend other churches sleep around. if u r not satisfied by now , u never will. If u want answers, why not delve more into the religion by reading ..since u no one has answered ur questions.

I didn't even read that part. Natasha is very funny o. So she means other girls that go to other churches too don't sleep around? As far as I am concerned, morality is a thing of the mind and should not be judged by the church one attends.

My point exactly?

[Insert Quote
so far no one has answered the question asked in this forum. All that is been said is that the ROman catholic church was the first church and that they believe in born again.
My questn is:
Why do u burn candles and incenses while service is on? sorry to say this, but some white garment churches in Nigeria known for being very fetish in nature do the same thing in service.
I do not also believe that the catholic church believe in being bron again, because their girls go around sleeping with every tom, privates n harry and come to church for confession on saturday. that i think encourages sin.
Finally, the Mary issue, Why do u pray through mary. Jesus said we should pray to God in his name not through mary.

Please i want real answers and not debunking comments or someone telling me to read some history written in Latin/quote]

Eddy Tells:

My point exactly?

You only hear/read what you want to hear/read.

Let us just formalise this debate so that we can come to a unrefutable conclusion.
First: give a [b]precise [/b]definition of what Born Again [/i]is
Second: examine whether or not the Catholic version of being [i]Born Again is the same as yours. If so, then you can discuss. If not: you're talking about different things and a debate is pointless
Third: If the futility of the debate would be established, this would not mean that either definition is better, only that you're talking about different things.

If u read my previous posts u will see that i gave a clear and precise definition. Am yet to see a catholic give me what their definitions state. They only base theirs on mine and say "thats what we know too. Let them say it

If you mean this post: https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria/topic-2894.0.html#msg98817 , then true Catholics are born again as well. Case closed.

Whew     I'm doing some catching up  

Ran through this thread pretty fast but I did pick up some things:

Let us just formalize this debate so that we can come to a irrefutable conclusion.
First: give a precise definition of what Born Again is

Jesus said:
Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.
Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

You either live in the flesh or Live in the Spirit ...in the world but not of the world.

All I can add to the subject of this thread is this:

The only thing Mary said for us to do is this:
Joh 2:5
His mother saith unto the servants, Whatsoever He saith unto you, do it.

and Jesus said this:
Mt 23:9
And call no man your father upon the earth: for one is your Father, which is in heaven.

and Jesus said this:
Joh 16:23
And in that day ye shall ask me nothing. Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whatsoever ye shall ask the Father in my name, he will give it you.
Joh 16:26-27
At that day ye shall ask in my name: and I say not unto you, that I will pray the Father for you:
For the Father himself loveth you, because ye have loved me, and have believed that I came out from God.

Sounds like the Father wants a relationship with us ...with no go-betweens.  
But...
Joh 4:24
God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.

I am not a bible guru, but I'm sure there is a bible passage that says the gift of the holy spirit is different for different people...speaking in tongues, healing etc

There is such a passage but it was written by Saul/Paul and I don't read him anymore...
and I wouldn't take much stock in what he "knows"... in Revelation all his churches were judged and found lacking ...
plus, it is obvious ...

Ac 15:7
And when there had been much disputing, Peter rose up, and said unto them, Men and brethren, ye know how that a good while ago God made choice among us, that the Gentiles by my mouth should hear the word of the gospel, and believe.

Ac 4:19
But Peter and John answered and said unto them, Whether it be right in the sight of God to hearken unto men more than unto God, judge ye.

Love this:

Note the double-whammy: 1. God told the people to spend the tithe money on themselves --- not to give it to some pastor; 2. God told the people to spend tithe money to buy alcohol among other things.

My philosophy is simple, everything in moderation. Aside from that, it is common sense...abi?

The summary is this: the Bible is against drunkenness but does not make a general prohibition of drinking alcohol

Those who were warned to stay away from alcohol turned out to be great men of their time.

Jesus Christ Himself drank alcohol, which is why some people abused Him as a "wine-bibber"; if what He drank was not alcoholic, the accusers would not have been able to make the abuse

I totally agree with everything said here  


Now the best for last !!  

This issue about the Holy Trinity is actually quite funny. If you go back to earlier sources, prior to the establishment of the Catholic Church, especially in the Gnostic Gospels, the trinity is more than the union of father, son and holy spirit. It is the unity of the masculine (father), feminine (spirit) and intermediary (son). The original Hebrew term for ghost was ruah, which is definitely feminine. During the council of Nicea, ruah was translated into the Greek pneuma, which is gender neutral.
Islam, which had access to Original Christian text that were either burned or lost by the Catholic Church made a correct interpretation (?) of the Trinity as a unity of God-Jesus-Mary.

Close...but no cigar    

The Trinity is indeed Father, Son and Holy Ghost/Spirit as a Unity of God/Jesus/Holy Spirit

If you don't believe me go back to the first chapters of Genesis... a brief summary:

Ge 1:27-28
So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him (one); male and female (combined) created he them (many).
And God blessed them(many), and God said unto them (many), Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth

Ge 2:18
And the LORD God said, It is not good (before this He said everything was good, very good...) that the man should be alone; I will make him an help meet (comforter) for him.

Ge 2:23-24
And Adam said, This is now bone of my bones, and flesh of my flesh: she shall be called Woman, because she was taken out of Man.
Therefore shall a man leave his father and his mother, and shall cleave unto his wife: and they shall be one flesh.

Ge 3:15-16
And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.
Unto the woman he said, I will greatly multiply thy sorrow and thy conception; in sorrow thou shalt bring forth children and thy desire shall be to thy husband, and he shall rule over thee.

Ge 3:20-21
And Adam called his wife's name Eve; because she was the mother of all living.
Unto Adam also and to his wife did the LORD God make (make, not go and kill animals to make but He made them with a verbalize thought ) coats of [b]skin[/b]s, and clothed them. (They were made in the "image" of God but God is Spirit ...so...they were spirit ...but ... now clothed in "skin" after the sin of not believing what God said they now lived in the flesh and not the Spirit ... nd Woman was re-named Eve, which is "mother of all living" the same as the Holy Spirit is to us ...  Take some time and study and God will show you His Truth...

God is Love and He Loves Us   Turn and embrass Him  

Your Friend from Michigan USA
RhodaRose

RhodaRose:


Now the best for last !!

This issue about the Holy Trinity is actually quite funny. If you go back to earlier sources, prior to the establishment of the Catholic Church, especially in the Gnostic Gospels, the trinity is more than the union of father, son and holy spirit. It is the unity of the masculine (father), feminine (spirit) and intermediary (son). The original Hebrew term for ghost was ruah, which is definitely feminine. During the council of Nicea, ruah was translated into the Greek pneuma, which is gender neutral.
Islam, which had access to Original Christian text that were either burned or lost by the Catholic Church made a correct interpretation (?) of the Trinity as a unity of God-Jesus-Mary.

Close...but no cigar
[SNIP]

You have not really made the case against my position. Is anything I said factually incorrect? Did the early Christian Churches not interpret the trinity as I posted before?

You have not really made the case against my position. Is anything I said factually incorrect? Did the early Christian Churches not interpret the trinity as I posted before?

Opps

I should have been more specific, sorry.

No, your position was fine, I meant the early Christan (Catholic) Churches were close but no cigar. The feminine part of the "trinity" was not Mary but the Holy Spirit.

Your Friend in Michigan USA
RhodaRose

RhodaRose:

Opps

I should have been more specific, sorry.

No, your position was fine, I meant the early Christan (Catholic) Churches were close but no cigar. The feminine part of the "trinity" was not Mary but the Holy Spirit.

Your Friend in Michigan USA
RhodaRose

Now I understand your position and I agree with it. The Catholic Church (after the establishment in the Roman Empire) used Mary as a sort of stand in for the divine feminine. They actually wanted to get rid of the whole trinitarian thinking, but were not capable of doing so, as it was well established, both in the existing Churches as in similar pagan and gnostic rituals.

Actually, it is true that the use of Mary as the divine feminine is a misrepresentation by Islamic scholars, because they took what they saw (the Mary cult) and assumed that that's where the feminine part of the trinity (in their sources) was coming from.

lioness:

Sorry, lioness ... I'm @ it again

Forget about ''Born again'' in the Nigerian context.
It is not Church or denomination that clothes you with righteousness.
Just go ahead and love your enemies more than yourself.
Give and share all that you have with the least of your ''brothers/sisters''
That should be your yardstick for holiness and seeing God.
An uphill task you will say.
May God shine his light upon you in Jesus name................
Say Amen to that.

Conscience, you said

It is not Church or denomination that clothes you with righteousness.

AMEN and right on the mark   

Just go ahead and love your enemies more than yourself.

Love them as yourselves....   AMEN 

Give and share all that you have with the least of your ''brothers/sisters''

AMEN

That should be your yardstick for holiness and seeing God.

AMEN

An uphill task you will say.

but easy when God is behind you....  AMEN

May God shine his light upon you in Jesus name................

AMEN

Say Amen to that.

I did and I do AMEN!!!

RhodaRose

WHEW!!! I applaud each and everyone of you for showing the world that religous misunderstandings/misinterpretations do not have to end up in war with blood and dying and all that stuff. Let us all thank our god, through our own special way, for the INFORMATION HIGHWAY!!!! Now, Say Amen To THat!! There are hundreds of religous wars going on in the world today, what do you say we take up a collection and pass out some laptops and get them(The War People) on this thread. So, before anyone asks me what I am doing here, or what am I saying? Here Goes: I love all of you. I love all religions. I don't care if one religion does things differently and the other asks why are you doing it that way, it's wrong. I only care that each and everyone of you have a mind, a heart and power of how to use them. I care that at least everyone on this thread "HAS A BELIEF". Some don't. Go with your love and belief's and let others do the same. My wife is NIgerian/Christian, I am not. If she were Catholic, Muslim or whatever it does not matter. I love her until I die. We should love each other the same. If you believe in Jesus, do as he says, "Love thy neighbor".

Thank You All Again, OH, YOU do realize, this thread will go on forever as the Bible's opinions do make us Tick.

AMEN

No, Thank You, Cheechako 

Very Inspiring and please come back and post

RhodaRose

I am not a catholic, but i love their belief of purgatory. It's more lenient compared to the strict Heaven or hell concept. It's nice to know that if you pray for the dead their souls could be accepted in Heaven.

angela k:

I am not a catholic, but i love their belief of purgatory. It's more lenient compared to the strict Heaven or hell concept. It's nice to know that if you pray for the dead their souls could be accepted in Heaven.

They are actually planning to get rid of that. As they feel they can no longer maintain that non baptised infants don't go to heaven, purgatory is no longer necessary.

contradicting themselves

AS ON MY SIDE I BELIEVE THAT CATHOLICS ARE NOT BORN AGAIN ALTHOUGH IT IS THE FIRST CHURCH IN HISTORY.
THEIR WORSHIP PRACTISES IS QUESTIONABLE.THE SO CALLED FATHERS ARE VERY RICH AND THIS LEADS THEM IN ADULTERY.A FATHER IN MY COUNTRY WAS RECENTILY CAUGHT WITH A MEMBER OF PARLIAMENT IN THE WEE HOURS OF NIGHT AND IT SEEMS GOD WAS ANGRY WITH THEM THEY WERE CAR JACKED THAT MADE HEADINDS IN OUR NEWSPAPERS
WHAT HE DOING?
THEY WORSHIP MARY,PICTURES CANDLES AND THEY ARE DRUNKARD ALL THE TIME.
OKEY THE SISTERS MOLEST YOUNG BOYS AND SOME HAVE BEEN PREGNANT AND HAVE ABORTED SO WHAT IS THIS?

The fact that all those happened in ur place does not mean there are no Born-again Catholics.

I WAS GIVING EXAMPLES GOOD GUY
STOP BEING HYPOCRITE AND ITS TRUE

I never said you were lying..and pls define "hypocrite".

AMEN

You mean catholics worship pictures and candles

Oh my! Watta religion

@ munyasia,

Rightfully as Goodguy said, cos it happens in ur country does not mean it is a general xteristics of catholics. Also i don't think they worship candles and all dat.

I really dont get it. is it that the catholic church is changing from these practices or changing into these practices

Nice to belong to a "religion" that can change the rules if it suits them...

God/Allah does not now, or ever, work this way...

You be the judge... Is God/Allah in a "church" who can change the rules when THEY please...?

I think NOT

RhodaRose

wHATS DA POINT!

[Posted by: RhodaRose
Insert Quote
Nice to belong to a "religion" that can change the rules if it suits them...

God/Allah does not now, or ever, work this way...

You be the judge... Is God/Allah in a "church" who can change the rules when THEY please...?

I think NOT

RhodaRose/quote]

lioness,

The point is;

If you belong to a "church" who changes the rules to suit themselves then you are not in a "church" where the Creator is present.

RhodaRose

uhhhh i see
But is it supposed to be good or bad