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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=frqIH5eATWg&hl=en&fs=1&[/flash]



Doctrinal history

The concept of the rapture, in connection with premillennialism, was expressed by the American Puritan father and son Increase and Cotton Mather. They held to the idea that believers would be caught up in the air, followed by judgments on the earth and then the millennium. [4][5] The term rapture was used by Philip Doddridge (1738) and John Gill (1748) in their New Testament commentaries, with the idea that believers would be caught up prior to judgment on the earth and Jesus' Second Coming. The concept of a pretribulation rapture was articulated by Baptist Morgan Edwards in an essay published in 1788 in Philadelphia.[6]

John Nelson Darby, considered the father of dispensationalism, first proposed the pretribulation rapture in 1827.[7]. This view was accepted among many other Plymouth Brethren in England. Darby and other prominent Brethren were part of the Brethren Movement which impacted American Christianity, primarily through their writings. Influences included the Bible Conference Movement, starting in 1878 with the Niagara Bible Conference. These conferences, which were initially inclusive of historicist and futurist premillennialism, led to an increasing acceptance of futurist premillennial views and the pretribulation rapture especially among Presbyterian, Baptist and Congregational members [8]. Popular books also contributed to acceptance of the pretribulation rapture, including William Eugene Blackstone's book Jesus is Coming published in 1878 and which sold more than 1.3 million copies, and the Scofield Reference Bible, published in 1909 and 1919 and revised in 1967.
The Catholic and Orthodox churches as well as the Reformed denominations have no tradition of a preliminary return of Christ and reject the doctrine, in part because they cannot find any reference to it among any of the early Church fathers and find its biblical foundation weak.[9]. Some also reject it because they interpret prophetic scriptures in either an amillennial or postmillennial fashion.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rapture

It would be easier for micheal jackson to moonwalk through the eye of a needle for his fans than for the son of man to return for his deluded followers.

It would be easier for micheal jackson to moonwalk through the eye of a needle for his fans than for the son of man to return for his deluded followers.

People never know the origins of what they believe. As long as some guy on a pulpit quotes the bible when he tells them about it, then it is true as far as they are concerned.

Quran 40:68
It is He (ALLAH) who gives life and causes death. And when He decides upon a thing He says to it only 'BE' and it is'


knowledge hath come to you, be wise and choose the right path of the Almighty

Rapture is a pentecostal invention ,it has no bibilical backing.

chukwudi44:

Rapture is a pentecostal invention ,it has no bibilical backing.

Word!!


BIBLICAL SCHOLARS ARE UR FRIENDS!!!!!  EMBRACE THEM!! STOP DISMISSING THEM. PLEASE, CHRISTIANS!!!

See them with there yaya replies, u all are saying that cus u know for sure that u are not going to be Raptured.

nuffin like rapture. . . its all bloody lies

I asked this question a long time ago, no one bothered to answer, people are always more comfortable not asking what they believe in. Cognitive dissonance.

Chris thats why i never start threads in this section. Once they see it's an atheist asking the questions nobody is gonna even open the thread. They're so insecure in their delusions.

Life goes on, go on with all your sinful ways of Life and wait if Rapture or end time is real.

Perhaps the actual term "Rapture" is not written in scripture but the concept of it is as clear as day and any so-called scholar who denies it is smoking something illegal. There are many other 'scholars' who disagree with the 'expert' in that clip.


And how can anyone, anywhere, ever in the history of the world prove with tangible, undeniable certainty that the Rapture will not happen?    This is an issue of faith in something that cannot be proven either way until the said event either happens or continues to not happen and the world ends in some way.

Atheists and other non-christians make the huge mistake of always trying to prove, study, determine, analyze, debunk biblical issues (rapture, tongues, salvation, trinity, resurrection etc) with secular reasoning. The bible is read, believed and accepted by FAITH alone! and salvation is a personal walk that cannot be transfered to another for verification or rejection. How hard is this to understand?

Rapture is a term applied to misunderstood scriptures.

I think it was invented in the 1800s.No one,including the

Reformers,believed any such nonsense for 1800 years.

Gods people lay down thier lives for him-they dont fly away

into the air at the first sign of trouble.

JeSoul:

 Perhaps the actual term "Rapture" is not written in scripture but the concept of it is as clear as day and any so-called scholar who denies it is smoking something illegal. There are many other 'scholars' who disagree with the 'expert' in that clip.

Don't u think that type of rhetoric can be identified with fundamentalism?

Krayola2:

Don'y u think that type of rhetoric can be identified with fundamentalism?

  Perhaps. It was moreso my _{perhaps poor} attempt at sarcasm.

What I should've said is that you can find reputable scholars on both sides of the debate. It just irks me when any of such scholars is so bold & brazen enough as to state their chosen side as the 'right one' with absolute certainty - especially when they cannot prove it.

JeSoul:

And how can anyone, anywhere, ever in the history of the world prove with tangible, undeniable certainty that the Rapture will not happen?    This is an issue of faith in something that cannot be proven either way until the said event either happens or continues to not happen and the world ends in some way.

Atheists and other non-christians make the huge mistake of always trying to prove, study, determine, analyze, debunk biblical issues (rapture, tongues, salvation, trinity, resurrection etc) with secular reasoning. The bible is read, believed and accepted by FAITH alone! and salvation is a personal walk that cannot be transfered to another for verification or rejection. How hard is this to understand?

It isn't about proof. Its about looking at the evidence thoroughly. And most people have not done that. It is natural that people dismiss ideas they disagree with, and embrace those they do agree with. But the question you need to be asking is, "maybe i'm right, but what if these people are on to something. Maybe I should check it out. Maybe I should listen to their arguments, and do the hard work of checking it out myself". If u have done that, fine. But if you haven't done that, how can u then honestly say that u have made an informed decision?

Krayola2:

It isn't about proof. Its about looking at the evidence thoroughly. And most people have not done that.

   If your beef is with zombie religionists, then so is mine. No one should be blindly dancing along to a tune of which they don't know the lyrics.
  but if you're putting up your feet on the idea that there's 'evidence' to support the idea the rapture is fictional, permit me to say that ground is highly unstable.

  How in the world does anyone go about collecting "evidence" that the rapture is not real?  please educate me cos I'm just slightly confused on this. Where is this evidence but more importantly what is this evidence? The only evidence I've ever come across are the opinions of scholars. And even if there were evidence in opposition to the rapture, it doesn't by any stretch of the imagination amount to an ounce of absolute certainty.

The bible does talk about a massive departure event (whether once or 50 times makes no difference) that has come to be termed the rapture. This is enough for those of us who have chosen to believe in it whether there is 'evidence' or not.

JeSoul:

   
The bible does talk about a massive departure event (whether once or 50 times makes no difference) that has come to be termed the rapture. This is enough for those of us who have chosen to believe in it whether there is 'evidence' or not.

Can you please quote these Bible verses. I just want to see what exactly u are referring to.

You have to remember that the Bible isn't one book, but a bunch of different books, written by different people at different times. So just because a phrase appears in two or more different parts does not mean it is referring to the same thing.

@tudor
My brother I know, wetin man go do Krayola is still new so they will still answer his threads for now.
@Jesoul
I beg to differ on this one, I will let you go on with your main debate with K but I just wanted to chip in that there will always be people on the other side of the fence regardless of whether what they believe in has any element of truth. The rapture, trinity, Jesus as God and all that have people on the other side of the fence, what side you choose depends on the evidence that is out there and after you study the verses in whatever case you come up with whether you agree or not. The important thing is that the arguments of the other side be at least looked into no?

Krayola2:

Can you please quote these Bible verses. I just want to see what exactly u are referring to.

1 Thess 4:16-17 "For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever.

1 Cor 15:51 "Behold, I tell you a mystery: We shall not all sleep, but we shall be changed - in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet."

There are a couple others but not as direct as the verse above.

You have to remember that the Bible isn't one book, but a bunch of different books, written by different people at different times. So just because a phrase appears in two or more different parts does not mean it is referring to the same thing.

If that's the approach you're going to adopt in dealing with biblical issues then you must throw the baby out along with the bath water, because Scriptures do not stand alone by themselves. They are all related, constantly refer to each other, and are understood in light of each other and must be read in harmony with each other to get to the true and more importantly intended meaning of the one author - God.

Chrisbenogor:

@Jesoul
I beg to differ on this one, I will let you go on with your main debate with K but I just wanted to chip in that there will always be people on the other side of the fence regardless of whether what they believe in has any element of truth. The rapture, trinity, Jesus as God and all that have people on the other side of the fence, what side you choose depends on the evidence that is out there and after you study the verses in whatever case you come up with whether you agree or not. The important thing is that the arguments of the other side be at least looked into no?

But this is the problem Chris, what evidence is there in favor of or in opposition to the rapture? besides the personal opinions of some scholars? All we have is the written word of this said event in the bible that one can either choose to believe in or not.

Rapture, like trinity, is another hoax the xtians believe in.

See, the word of God is not difficult. Its not a mystery or something that cant be understood.

You dont make meaningless and senseless claims and tell us we cant understand because we are not christians or "not filled with the spirit". . .

Total Rubbish. . .!

See, the word rapture is not existent in the bible

Jesus never preached rapture. . .that people will disappear and all that bollocks. . .! Eyin lemo. . .if una like make una dis appear. . .

The fact remains that man will die, man will be buried and man will be ressurected to give account.

Plus those that disappeared and those that didnt, we will all give account!!!!

You guys need to start thinking straight and its high time u start questioning the crap called bible. . .

JeSoul:


1 Thess 4:16-17 "For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever.

1 Cor 15:51 "Behold, I tell you a mystery: We shall not all sleep, but we shall be changed - in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet."

There are a couple others but not as direct as the verse above.
If that's the approach you're going to adopt in dealing with biblical issues then you must throw the baby out along with the bath water, because Scriptures do not stand alone by themselves. They are all related, constantly refer to each other, and are understood in light of each other and must be read in harmony with each other to get to the true and more importantly intended meaning of the one author - God.

Now, are these the words of God Almighty or the words of a reporter?

What the OP is doing isnt a shock to me. Infact of late i have been going through several of the "doctrines" and heresies of what many now call the "emergent church" . . . a new breed of "christianity" built largely on human philosophy.

this is not new . . . infact Tony Jones is another "pastor" who claims that original sin doesnt exist even though the bible says - Eph. 2:1   And you were dead in the trespasses and sins 2 in which you once walked, following the course of this world, following the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that is now at work in the sons of disobedience— 3 among whom we all once lived in the passions of our flesh, carrying out the desires of the body and the mind, [size=14pt]and were by nature children of wrath[/size], like the rest of mankind.

Phyllis Tickle tells us that sola sciptura is nonsense even though the bible says - 2 Tim 3:16 [size=14pt]All Scripture is breathed out by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness[/size], 17 that the man of God may be competent, equipped for every good work.

Brian Mclaren and Dominic Crossan say that Christ's death on the cross was not for our sins but to fight cruelty and injustice . . . "pastor" Ed Bacon came on Oprah show to say that homosexualism is a GIFT of God even though the bible is pretty clear that - Leviticus 18:22 You shall not lie with a male as with a woman; it is an abomination. i can go on and on quoting anti-biblical leaders of "emergent" churches who have started to teach damnable heresies.

What is however sad though is ignorant and revulsive comments like this -

Krayola2:

People never know the origins of what they believe. As long as some guy on a  pulpit quotes the bible when he tells them about it, then it is true as far as they are concerned.

But does Krayola himself understand the origin of his own beliefs? What proof does he have that the woman he quoted was correct and the bible wrong? Did he take the time to verify that indeed the concept of the rapture isnt in the bible? Or is he basing his entire belief on one video from an unknown and then turning around to accuse others of doing the very same thing?

Again i continously see ridiculous comments such as this -

javalove:

Rapture, like trinity, is another hoax the xtians believe in.

Now while this is beautiful couched here masquerading like a sincere critic of the bible, it actually isnt. The concepts of the "rapture" and "trinity" completely destroy the veracity of the quran . . . it is thus incumbent on the irrational muslim to disbelieve this . . . it doesnt matter even if you opened the bible and showed him the truth. The bible wasnt written in English . . . how someone expects to find EXACT modern day words describing things in the bible is beyond me.

For instance the bible NEVER ONCE mentions rice . . . shld we then assume that rice does not exist?

Again i see more absurdities with posts like this -

Krayola2:

It isn't about proof. Its about looking at the evidence thoroughly. And most people have not done that.

Now besides the one video he posted . . . what other evidence did this poster "thoroughly" look at before coming to his conclusions?

davidylan:

Now besides the one video he posted . . . what other evidence did this poster "thoroughly" look at before coming to his conclusions?

  I have been asking since my first post.

minute:

Rapture is a term applied to misunderstood scriptures.

I think it was invented in the 1800s.No one,including the

Reformers,believed any such nonsense for 1800 years.

Gods people lay down thier lives for him-they dont fly away

into the air at the first sign of trouble.

What is even worse is that people such as this claim to attend church too. When a "christian" cant even articulate what is in his/her bible, what do you expect of the sinner?

JeSoul:

But this is the problem Chris, what evidence is there in favor of or in opposition to the rapture? besides the personal opinions of some scholars? All we have is the written word of this said event in the bible that one can either choose to believe in or not.

The same you have, they interprete it as the only coming of Jesus, but that is not my point you and K can battle that one out. What I am saying is everyone feels they are right, how certain are you that your interpretation of that passage is the right one?

What is the point of providing evidence if it gets dismissed right off the bat? Rather than question what is presented, and state why u don't agree with it, and then we can go from there; u question the credibility and sincerity of the poster. U almost make it sound like I'm some evil dude sitting in my dark basement coming up with all this twisted stuff to mislead people. I have tonnes of evidence. But this stuff isn't simple stuff.   The evidence i have isn't propaganda type stuff. It is a combination of biblical studies, cross - cultural studies, archaelogy etc. where people have gone and tried to recreate the exact context in which the books were written and what was most like intended, and the other socio-political factors that might have affected the writings. You guys expect me to make one post that will just convince you about everything. That isn't possible. This is complicated stuff and we have to start from somewhere and move slowly. But as long as u are suspicious of my intentions, and are so quick to dismiss anything I say, this is pointless.

@ Jesoul, I asked you to quote the Bible verses u are talking about so that I can look into them and see what i can find, u didn't respond. How can I even make a case if I have nothing to go with. There is no mention of a rapture in the bible. U said there are bible verses that support ur belief in such an event, and I asked u to show me these verses. . . that can at least be a starting point, no?

Krayola2:

What is the point of providing evidence if it gets dismissed right off the bat? Rather than question what is presented, and state why u don't agree with it, and then we can go from there; u question the credibility and sincerity of the poster. U almost make it sound like I'm some evil dude sitting in my dark basement coming up with all this twisted stuff to mislead people. I have tonnes of evidence. But this stuff isn't simple stuff.   The evidence i have isn't propaganda type stuff. It is a combination of biblical studies, cross - cultural studies, archaelogy etc. where people have gone and tried to recreate the exact context in which the books were written and what was most like intended, and the other socio-political factors that might have affected the writings. You guys expect me to make one post that will just convince you about everything. That isn't possible. This is complicated stuff and we have to start from somewhere and move slowly. But as long as u are suspicious of my intentions, and are so quick to dismiss anything I say, this is pointless.

Sigh. Doesnt this type of obfuscationist and illogical argument bore other folks too? The OP produces a video claiming to show that the rapture isnt real, the OP apparently buys the claims then wonders why he shld have to provide evidence bolstering his position?

Krayola2:

@ Jesoul, I asked you to quote the Bible verses u are talking about so that I can look into them and see what i can find, u didn't respond. How can I even make a case if I have nothing to go with. There is no mention of a rapture in the bible. U said there are bible verses that support ur belief in such an event, and I asked u to show me these verses. . . that can at least be a starting point, no?

she already did, posts ago . . . its like you're not interested in those verses. I mean this thread is only 1 page long, less than 30 posts . . . it boggles the mind that you didnt find the verses you claimed. Dishonesty seems to be the watchword around here.

davidylan:


she already did, posts ago . . . its like you're not interested in those verses. I mean this thread is only 1 page long, less than 30 posts . . . it boggles the mind that you didnt find the verses you claimed. Dishonesty seems to be the watchword around here.

haha. I missed the posts . . i must have scrolled down the page in a hurry the last time i logged in. i will get a bible when i get home and get back at u.

Please stop being so confrontational. there is no need for it. I'm not ur enemy.

Chrisbenogor:

The same you have, they interprete it as the only coming of Jesus, but that is not my point you and K can battle that one out. What I am saying is everyone feels they are right, how certain are you that your interpretation of that passage is the right one?

No Chris, I have never claimed to have any "evidence", infact I have maintained that it is impossible to have proof concerning matters of faith & the bible.

If we want to say this is a matter different interpretation, then please tell me how you would interpret these verses: 
1 Thess 4:16-17 "For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever.

1 Cor 15:51 "Behold, I tell you a mystery: We shall not all sleep, but we shall be changed - in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet."


Now if you simply want to say you don't believe in these verses, absolutely your perogative. But to dispute that these verses aren't speaking of a momentous event and a rapture-like concept, to me reeks of intellectual dishonesty, I don't care how many phD's the scholar has.