Krayola2:

@ davidlyan

haha. olodo rabata. Listen, if the afterlife, the fate of all mankind, was that important i doubt we'll have to be looking so hard to find it in the old testament. It developed later, and I have shown that to you. The rest na story.

we are not "looking so hard to find it", infact i've already shown you 2 CLEAR CUT EXAMPLES. you're struggling so hard not to see it because you desperately do not want to believe it. Your loss dude.

SoWhat77:

Yes Elijah did ascend up to "the heavens" but not into heaven. Heaven is a spirit realm and one must die first and be resurrected in "spirit form" in order to enter into heaven.( 1Corinthians 15:50) The occurrence regarding Elijah was not him being taken to heaven but him being carried off to another place on earth. As it said in 2Kings 2:16 where it said the spirit of Jehovah may have picked him up and thrown him upon one of the mountains or valleys.

It even states later in 2 Chronicles 21:12- Eventually there came a writing to him from Elijah. If Elijah had been taken to heaven he would not have later been able to write a letter to Jehoram.

I realize that some Cristians believe that the rapture is sort of an escape plan that is going to happen to faithful Christians when the end comes however only a select few are going to be given the gift of spiritual bodies and life in heaven ruling with Jesus Christ as king and that is found at Revelation 14:1-3. This group is often referred to as the "little flock". It says -I saw and look! The lamb standing upon Mt Zion and with him a hundred and forty four thousand having his name and the name of his Father written on their forheads. And they are singing as if a new song but the hundred and forty four thousand who have been bought from the earth.

So what of the rest of the faithful Christians? Well they are going to inherit the earth. A earth that will be free of wicked people and people that refuse to  believe that God is the rightfull ruler of the earth and all humans on it. That scripture can be found at Psalms 37:9,11- It says For evildoers themselves will be cut off, but those hoping in Jehovah are the ones that will posses the earth.10.And just a little while longer and the wicked on will be no more, and you will certainly give attention to his place and he will not be11. But the meek ones themselves will possess the earth and they will indeed find their exquisite delight in the abundance of peace.

What is she saying? Where did you find that unbiblical nonsense?

It is in the "bible".

I quoted the scriptures. If it is nonsense then you are saying the bible is nonsense because it is in the bible.

Another thing, before you dismissed it is nonsense did you look up the scriptures that supported that? Or did you just assume that it sounded crazy so it must be?

Before dismissing this please take a look at these other scriptures that support

Mathew 5:5- Blessed are the meek ones for they shall inherit] the earth.

Psalms 37:29 -The rightous shall possess the land and dwell forever upon it

1st Corinthians 15:50- Flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God

Revelations 20:6 - They shall be preists of God and of Christ and they shall reign with him a thousand years. (these are the 144,000) And they will reign with Christ over earthly humans. The humans the bible spoke of at Mathew 5:5

Again Proverbs 2:21- The upright will inhabit the land (or dwell on earth in some bibles), and men of integrity will remain in it.

Lastly 1 Thessilonians 4 :17 And we Christians cuaght away to heaven shall always be with the Lord.

The bible talks about what will happen to two diffrent groups of Christians. The ones that will inherit the earth and the ones that will be given the gift of a life in heaven. Look in your bible if you doubt these scriptures

SoWhat77:

It is in the "bible".

where pls?

SoWhat77:

I quoted the scriptures. If it is nonsense then you are saying the bible is nonsense because it is in the bible.

no, such JW nonsense isnt in the bible . . . show us pls.

SoWhat77:

Another thing, before you dismissed it is nonsense did you look up the scriptures that supported that? Or did you just assume that it sounded crazy so it must be?

Before dismissing this please take a look at these other scriptures that support

Mathew 5:5- Blessed are the meek ones for they shall inherit] the earth.

Psalms 37:29 -The rightous shall possess the land and dwell forever upon it

1st Corinthians 15:50- Flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God

Revelations 20:6 - They shall be preists of God and of Christ and they shall reign with him a thousand years. (these are the 144,000) And they will reign with Christ over earthly humans. The humans the bible spoke of at Mathew 5:5

Again Proverbs 2:21- The upright will inhabit the land (or dwell on earth in some bibles), and men of integrity will remain in it.

Lastly 1 Thessilonians 4 :17 And we Christians cuaght away to heaven shall always be with the Lord.

The bible talks about what will happen to two diffrent groups of Christians. The ones that will inherit the earth and the ones that will be given the gift of a life in heaven. Look in your bible if you doubt these scriptures

typical JW nonsense . . . and i'm sure you've been snooping around to see the houses you will inherit in this "earth" right?

@davidylan

haha. . .its funny how her numerous direct and literal verses from the same bible are JW nonsense. But your two CLEAR CUT contrived examples are correct.

On the whole of google you can't find anything on Judaism (that isn't from a christian website) to back up ur claim that Jews believed in rapture . That Elijah was taken up into the heavens does not equate to Jews believing in rapture. One incident of something is not the same as the entire mankind. Jews believed Elijah (who never even died) was coming back to fore-run the messiah. . .some even thought he was John the Baptist .  They didn't think he had gone to heaven in that sense. If there was a heaven and hell fire that was man's fate, I REPEAT, you think God would have mentioned it in all his numerous appearances and speeches to the people of Israel (Abraham, Joseph, Moses, David, etc). Stop imposing your theology on the Torah. Pharisees did it, the Gospel writers did it, and we still haven't finished sorting thru their mess. Deluded clowns like you just keep piling on more and more mumbo jumbo by the minute.

Plaese, Mr. "final authority on the bible", explain why all those verses she quoted don't speak to the fate of mankind, but the ones you quoted do.

The fact that u dismiss anything that comes ur way shatters all ur credibility. U're just a deluded shithead without the slightest clue.

I am sorry but there is no need to snoop around for anything in this system of things because these things now are temporary and will not last. The bible states that in the new earth no man will build and another take occupancy(Isaiah 65 :21,22). Life on the new earth will be fare for ALL humans and no human will have to do without like the present system of things. It also says that[b] in the new earth the former things will not come to mind (Isaiah 65:17)[/b]

The earth and everything of the past will be gone. Jehovah God says he he will be making ALL things new (Revelation 21:5)

I do not want to argue with you about scriptures. I can only hope and pray on our behalf that God will open your eyes to the truth. He is a God of love and does not wish for one single person to be destroyed on the day of his wrath(2 Peter 3:9) However Satan does want humans to be destroyed. That is what is to blame for all of this confusion regarding religion and even peoples blindness to the facts, for Revelation 12:9 says that Satan and his demons are in the vicinity of the earth and they are misleading the entire inhabited earth. Look in your bible and you will find the quoted scriptures. Jehovah wants everyone to know the truth and the scriptures are there waiting for you to examine.

Haba people, try and make it easy for us to read now. Em lets first define what rapture is and the events of the rapture, then the biblical passages follow.

The rapture is generally understood as the second coming of Christ which was described as a single event. This idea was then developed into a two stage process, and several passages strung together to support it.This 2nd view is the one the lady in the video speaks against. She explains that the verses used have little or no relationship with each other, and that this expectation is not consistent with what the biblical narratives actually describe to christians. (Note. the lady does not say anything against the traditional understanding of the 2nd coming of christ, but the idea that people will be snatched away from the earth for 7 years)


I went further to try to explain how that whole idea of an apocalypse type thing got into Jewish belief. . . they never believed any such thing to begin with. and then our bible lord, my davidlylan, proceeded to invent new Jewish theology for the sake of his bugged out perspective.


The bible verses have been posted by davidylan and Jesoul several times already.

Krayola2:

@davidylan

haha. . .its funny how her numerous direct and literal verses from the same bible are JW nonsense. But your two CLEAR CUT contrived examples are correct.

Here is the simple reason why: the two examples i gave are not theological jingoism . . . i simply QUOTED THE BIBLE VERBATIM. You have a choice to reject the witness of the bible.
Meanwhile our JW poster has done two things they are very good at - misquoting bible passages to support spurious theology and cooking up her own doctrines that have no standing in the bible.

Krayola2:

On the whole of google you can't find anything on Judaism (that isn't from a christian website) to back up ur claim that Jews believed in rapture .

The jewish belief in the rapture wasnt what we were debating . . . i'm tired of people shifting the goalposts when their lies fall flat. You were specifically seeking for ANY biblical proof that the jews even believed in an afterlife or why God didnt mention heaven or hell so much in the OT. Infact according to you, the bible didnt start talking of heaven or the apocalypse until the book of Daniel (alleging that this was because of the influence of Greek culture) . . . well you were WRONG!

The doctrine of the rapture did not become relevant UNTIL AFTER the death and resurrection of Christ . . . that does not mean that heaven or hell didnt exist prior to that. One of Christ's parables even talked about Abraham in paradise and the rich man in hell. If the jews did not believe in an afterlife i'm sure Christ's parable would have been seriously questioned by those who heard that parable. Its impossible for Christ to have talked about Abraham in paradise if the Jews didnt understand what paradise was or whether dead people even went anywhere in the first place.

Krayola2:

That Elijah was taken up into the heavens does not equate to Jews believing in rapture.

But it does puncture holes in your false theory that the jews didnt believe in an afterlife until the book of Daniel.

Krayola2:

One incident of something is not the same as the entire mankind. Jews believed Elijah (who never even died) was coming back to fore-run the messiah. . .some even thought he was John the Baptist . They didn't think he had gone to heaven in that sense.

this is stupid . . . did the Jews also believe Enoch or Abraham was coming back to forerun the Messiah too?
Saul used a witch to call up the spirit of Samuel . . . why would he do that if they had no knowledge of an afterlife for the dead?

Krayola2:

If there was a heaven and hell fire that was man's fate, I REPEAT, you think God would have mentioned it in all his numerous appearances and speeches to the people of Israel (Abraham, Joseph, Moses, David, etc).

This argument is porous and i have already dealt with it. I get bored with clueless who continuously recycle the same foolish argument all the time even after you've answered it.

Krayola2:

Stop imposing your theology on the Torah. Pharisees did it, the Gospel writers did it, and we still haven't finished sorting thru their mess. Deluded clowns like you just keep piling on more and more mumbo jumbo by the minute.

What is utterly ridiculous is that this is precisely what you are doing by this thread. You're imposing your own flawed and degenerate thinking on the torah . . . when others debunk your false allegations you start accusing them of "imposing their theology on the torah"? How convenient.

Did you not IMPOSE your own theology on the torah when you falsely claimed that Daniel's prophecies on the apocalypse and afterlife where only because of Greek influence? Is that what the torah told you Daniel based his prophecies on?

I notice you disgraceful hypocrite have tried all the tricks in the book not to respond to JeSoul's verses . . . you were CRYING SO LOUDLY for the verses EVEN AFTER she had posted them . . . i reminded you that she had, she has since reposted them AGAIN yet you keep running and LYING!

Krayola2:

Plaese, Mr. "final authority on the bible", explain why all those verses she quoted don't speak to the fate of mankind, but the ones you quoted do.

The fact that u dismiss anything that comes ur way shatters all ur credibility. U're just a deluded shithead without the slightest clue.

You just described yourself unfortunately.

haha . . olodooooo rabata, oju eja lo mo je!! oo ni lo paper, slate lo ma lo!!

Krayola2:

haha . . olodooooo rabata, oju eja lo mo je!! oo ni lo paper, slate lo ma lo!!

what a shame.

hahaha. . . I'm still waiting for you to show me how Enoch "ascended into heaven", and how that means the rest of the world will too.

IGNORAMUS!!!  When you get to church tomorrow, u betta go and and start asking ur bastard pastor for answers. . the guy just dey sell u jagba jantis. .u better open ur eyes, clown!!

Krayola2:

hahaha. . . I'm still waiting for you to show me how Enoch "ascended into heaven", and how that means the rest of the world will too.

You dont have to believe it . . . are you being forced to? And when did that become the topic of debate? Are you done with JeSoul's request? when you tools of the devil are cornered with your own falsehood you start blabbing and struggling desperately to change the subject.

The bible is "jagbajantis" and you're here foaming in the mouth over it? Makes no sense.

haha. . me, cornered? Je seoul was making circular arguments and i decided to get out of it.

I don't believe this crap, but at least i understand it. Learn more ABOUT the bible. . instead of just reading from it. Ur pastor will never tell u the truth. Ur money keeps him paid.

You guys should cut this out abeg, I hate seeing good threads like this derail, all this confrontation will not work abeg abeg una.

haha. . chris. u know this aint my style. . but this gay won't just get off my dikc. wetin man go do?

Krayola2:

haha. . me, cornered? Je seoul was making circular arguments and i decided to get out of it.

I don't believe this crap, but at least i understand it. Learn more ABOUT the bible. . instead of just reading from it. Ur pastor will never tell u the truth. Ur money keeps him paid.

I laugh in derision. You ASKED SPECIFICALLY for bible verses . . . even AFTER JeSoul had posted them (apparently it was your assumption that she would not find them!) . . . well she did, even went as far as reposting them and asked for your explanation of those verses based on the putrid lies your "theologian" in the video was making up. You couldnt . . .

Its no surprise, atheists come here pretending to be seeking "asnwers" . . . provide them and they either run away, try to dance around it, change the subject entirely or insult you.

What do you know about the bible? Have you learnt it like you suggest i shld? If you did you would have known those verses you were asking JeSoul for.

Pathetic.

Chrisbenogor:

You guys should cut this out abeg, I hate seeing good threads like this derail, all this confrontation will not work abeg abeg una.

the thread derailed when the OP found out he couldnt force his lies through.

Krayola2:

haha. . chris. u know this aint my style. . but this gay won't just get off my dikc. wetin man go do?

Sorry, i wont sit by and watch frauds peddle lies against the bible. I know you guys prefer it when you're the one bleating for proof.

the thread derailed when the OP found out he couldnt force his lies through.

yeah, thats why Jesoul and i were doing just fine till ur dumb ass showed up. Jesoul and i disagreed strongly and not one insult came out of it. Fukn idiot.

Sorry, i wont sit by and watch frauds peddle lies against the bible. I know you guys prefer it when you're the one bleating for proof.

Sorry? be sorry for yourself o . . look at this clown. i gave u the whole of google to pick ur source from and u cant find anything to support ur clown theology. Who the fukc are u kiddin? u think the people readin are as dumb as u?

Krayola2:

yeah, thats why Jesoul and i were doing just fine till ur dumb ass showed up. Jesoul and i disagreed strongly and not one insult came out of it. Fukn idiot.

I havent insulted you EVEN ONCE on this thread. If you're looking at the insults pls search your own posts . . . the only thing i did "wrong" was to point out the glaring fact that you have been lying all along on this thread, misrepresenting the bible and trying to pull the wool over our eyes with long nonsensical posts that say exactly nothing.

No you and JeSoul werent "doing just fine" . . . you were too busy dodging her questions until she got fed up and left.

Krayola2:

Sorry? be sorry for yourself o . . look at this clown. i gave u the whole of google to pick ur source from and u cant find anything to support ur clown theology. Who the fukc are u kiddin? u think the people readin are as dumb as u?

I dont need google to support my "theology". I only need produce verses from the bible.

I repeat again - many of you would not be here if google did not exist to assist your false knowledge.

The bible says you will be able to tell what kind of tree it is by the fruit it produces. If you were really doing what the bible asked of you David you would be out preaching about God and his Kingdom and the gran promises he has in store for humans. We are supposed to follow Jesus's example and go forth preaching and teaching. I don't recall anywhere in the bible where Jesus became disgusted at his followers for asking questions.

Also I have quoted from the bible directly but you continuously ignore the scriptures I post and say I am promoting bible falsities. Please open your heart and ask God to show you for himself. I am only a human, a student of the bible, who like you is trying to draw closer and closer to God. Pray and ask him to reveal to you the truth.

@davidylan

anywAys, this yelling shit is getting tired. I apologize for the insults.  I didn't avoid any questions. I explained everything and asked her to check out some stuff herself. I can't make her do anything. I already told u this stuff is more complicated than any post i could possibly make.

But I think this is what has come out of this so far. You used Enoch and Elijah to support an Afterlife theory. If your pastor taught you that he owes you an explanation, and if he can't give u one I suggest u get up and leave his church. God bless you. u revouir  

SoWhat77:

The bible says you will be able to tell what kind of tree it is by the fruit it produces. If you were really doing what the bible asked of you David you would be out preaching about God and his Kingdom and the gran promises he has in store for humans. We are supposed to follow Jesus's example and go forth preaching and teaching. I don't recall anywhere in the bible where Jesus became disgusted at his followers for asking questions.

Again stop with the nonsensical moral equivalence.

1. The bible also says - occupy till i come no? Well i'm doing just that. What are you doing here instead of preaching about God and His kingdom?

2. God has more than "grand promises in store for humans". I'm tired of "christians" whose only reason for "loving God" is to claim "grand promises". What happened to talking to others about the need to REPENT OF UNRIGHTEOUSNESS? Read through the entire gospels, Christ spends more time calling the sinner to repentance and speaks far less about "promises".

Ye seek the hands of God all the time . . . what about His face?

You dont recall a time Christ was disgusted at questions posed by His followers . . . that is completely true . . . but one thing you hypocrite forget is that those His followers were 100% faithful to the gospel even on occassions when they didnt understand it. compare that to Christ's response to mockers, scoffers and theological liars like the scribes and pharisees!

SoWhat77:

Also I have quoted from the bible directly but you continuously ignore the scriptures I post and say I am promoting bible falsities. Please open your heart and ask God to show you for himself. I am only a human, a student of the bible, who like you is trying to draw closer and closer to God. Pray and ask him to reveal to you the truth.

Yes you have "quoted the bible" . . . but half the time MISREPRESENTED IT! Dont bother about me asking for God to open my heart, its been open for a while and i've also known for ages about the false doctrine of the JW. I'm not as interested in taking you up on your heresies just yet.

I would suggest you start reading the bible ON YOUR OWN, ask Christ to help you understand it in His own way . . . many of you simply regurgitate the bible verses and the automaton explanation for it given to you by your leaders.

Krayola2:

@davidylan

anywAys, this yelling shit is getting tired. I apologize for the insults.  I didn't avoid any questions. I explained everything and asked her to check out some stuff herself. I can't make her do anything. I already told u this stuff is more complicated than any post i could possibly make.

But I think this is what has come out of this so far. You used Enoch and Elijah to support an Afterlife theory. If your pastor taught you that he owes you an explanation, and if he can't give u one I suggest u get up and leave his church. God bless you. u revouir  

Again you falsely call the afterlife issue a theory. Its not!

I asked you a specific question . . . if indeed the jews didnt believe in an afterlife . . . how come NO ONE questioned Elijah when he told them he would be taken up to heaven that day? Why didnt they scoff at him and ask if he was going crazy? What heaven was he talking about?

Sometimes all you need is simple logic, you dogmatically stick to your position because you desperately want it to be true regardless of the facts.

show me a Jewish source that uses Elijah to support an afterlife for all mankind. Jews don't just make doctrine up like Christians do. If God didn't directly tell them something, or one of their main prophets, it doesn't matter who says it they won't accept it. Thats why they didn't accept even Jesus. Rabbi's can make stuff up, but they are never accepted as official. Thats why It's so hard for u to find a Jewish source to support this claim of yours. If u could find any reliable source you would have presented it.

Krayola2:

show me a Jewish source that uses Elijah to support an afterlife for all mankind. Jews don't just make doctrine up like Christians do. If God didn't directly tell them something, or one of their main prophets, it doesn't matter who says it they won't accept it. Thats why they didn't accept even Jesus. Rabbi's can make stuff up, but they are never accepted as official. Thats why It's so hard for u to find a Jewish source to support this claim of yours. If u could find any reliable source you would have presented it.

Read the torah. I'm tired of this disgraceful attempts to dance around facts.

Here is the first question to ask - do jews believe in an afterlife? SURE THEY DO!

Why havent jews questioned the story of Elijah in the bible if they believed an afterlife was nonsense? What "jewish source" are you asking for by the way? NONE OF YOUR OWN SOURCES HAVE BEEN JEWISH!

I only provided one source. And offered you the whole of google to find any of ur own

haha. I rest my case!!

Krayola2:

I only provided one source. And offered you the whole of google to find any of ur own

haha. I rest my case!!

I read your source twice . . . i already debunked it for the nonsense it was. A "source" claiming to trawl through the torah looking for places where it talked about the afterlife . . . completely IGNORING the two glaring cases where men didnt die but went to heaven directly? lol that's enough to put that "source" in the thrash can where it belongs.

Again i repeat . . . i dont need google to build my own faith, i know without it atheists would have no argument at all since they cant reason on their own. The constant recourse to "source" isnt because you are honest about the truth but because that is the only way you can even attempt to "debate".