JeSoul:

   Now you're mixing things or as Daviddylan likes to say "shifting the goalpost". So are you saying you accept Jesus coming back but not the 7 year tribulation? Is this your whole problem? I'm inclined to think otherwise cos if this were the case you would not have titled the thread the way you did.

wtf are u talking about? I titled a thread, and posted a video. The thread was about the video. I don't believe Jesus is EVER coming back. But thats another debate. The lady was talking about a 2 part rapture, thats what the thread is about. U were talking about the traditional understaning of rapture. I thought we just cleared that up. No?

JeSoul:

The traditional understanding/definition of the rapture is the coming back of Jesus and instant taking away of the saints, and meeting Jesus in the clouds. If your beef is with the tribulation why attack the "rapture"?  

The word "rapture" does not exist in the bible. It is not once used to describe the second coming of Jesus. So, the problem was with the meaning of rapture, because we thought it to mean two different things. Chris cleared it up. . .why keep flogging a dead horse, are u trying to resurrect it? 

JeSoul:

 I have kindly asked you to give us your interpretation of the 2 verses, you ignored all my requests. I have asked for the evidence you asserted existed at the begining of our convo - you are yet to give me anything concrete besides "go and read this book or article".

Like I said, when people dismiss stuff they have not seen, it shows they are not interested in changing their point of view. I want to show you that the Bible, as is, has been tainted, and that Christianity is based on a tainted document. If u refuse to go and look it up, u WILL never take me seriously. And like I said I'm not interested in a one way debate; Where u keep coming a and raising hell when u do not get a response, and then u ignore anything i tell u and dismiss it when u have no idea what it is. I won't speak on this again cause this is th 3rd time i said it in my last few posts.

JeSoul:

 So a non-christian who doesn't believe in God and the bible is suddenly the authority on what the events of "Rapture" should be? Why is her version/definition of the rapture the right one and what we christians believe the wrong one?

I'm not an authority on the Bible. But the bible has been used to describe a 2 part rapture. I do not have to be a christian to know that is bullshit.   Can we discuss the issues and stop this personal character assassination? I can be condescending too, u know?

JeSoul:

Anyways, I better understand you seeing that you've adopted her version of the what the rapture is. If your (her) whole beef is with the 7 year tribulation then clearly state that - and not title a video "Debunking the Rapture" like you've both suddenly been granted level 9 access to previously unavailable evidence to support your beliefs.

Holy shit!! I dont believe in any rapture. Not even the one the lady agrees with. It was about how the bible is used to make up stuff that was not intended by Jesus.

[/quote]

I said this
[quote]
The point I was making with Judaism was how the whole idea of a resurrection and afterlife came into being. It was a foreign idea that was popular when Jesus and Paul were growing up. It was taught in synagogues, but it wasn't really part of their doctrine. I was tryin to make a bigger point about how ideas are picked up, become popular, and take a new life form of their own.

By "their" I meant Jewish doctrine. I think that is where the confusion is (and i should have been clearer). I meant that Judaism doctrine does not believe human are going into the heavens and disappearing or any such thing.


Jesoul.  .This is the last week of school and I have exams all next week. I have tonnes of papers to hand in and all kinds of work to get done which is why I'm not replying ur posts on time. I'm not avoiding you, its just a crazy time. I probably won't check into the forum again today cause its a big distraction.

lol, you've mixed so many things in the above post I think you should just go 'head and focus on your school & work, when you have more disposable time, holla @your girl aight? We can continue this some other time.

@ Marlbron

Hmm, interesting, Let us take it one by one

Meet him in the air and so shall we ever be him. So you will be with Christ suspended in the air for ever! Good for you my friend, but I don't think that will happen as the air is actuall the world. You will meet with him and be with him in the world.

Its obvious we won't remain in the air. The bible says we will meet Him in the air. The phrase "so shall we ever be with the Lord" does not mean we will be with Him in the air forever. I mean if I were to say to my wife, "honey I will meet you in Los Angeles, and so shall we spend the rest of our lives together" Does that mean it has to be in Los Angeles?

2. Yes, the bad guys will be punished. Remember we are not told that the punishment will occur immediately he arrives. There will be some time lapse before he is revealed. That was why he compared it to the days of Noah.

Time lapse? I am talking about His return, and how the bible has described that return, and what is expected when He returns. Don't confuse the signs of His second return with the actual return itself.

3. I notice you are confused about the 1000yrs and the first ressurrection. Let me explain. After Christ died, he started ruling.

He is not yet King of Kings so He cannot rule. Now He is High Priest making intercession and making atonement in the heavenly judgment.

The 1000yrs reign started with the death of the disciples and faithfuls who were killed. The 1000yr reign was from the heavens and we are past that stage now.

Its obvious you're clueless. Revelation 20 says that the 2nd resurrection comes at the end of the 1000 years. Obviously the 1st resurrection begins the period.

Remember he said that all powers were given to him in heaven and on earth. For you to be qualified for the first ressurection, you first must die with him (be baptized of the holy spirit: when you are dipped in the water you are dead in him, when you leave the water, you ressurrect in Him). When you have been baptized subsequent physical death has no hold on you . If you die before his coming, it means little as you will surely regenerate when he appears. When you regenerate, you will not be overtaken by the 2nd death.

Don't make an issue about what we already know. We are discussing the 2nd return and the events that will occur when He returns. The events themselves is a means of dispelling any myths about what the rapture is.

3. It is wrong doctrine to say the earth will be empty of humans. Christ went to great pains to tell us how the end will look like , including giving us signs and telling us that two people will be together, one will be taken and the other lrft. He is simply saying that the evil ones will be elliminated from the world. Note he did not say Christians or Muslims or aetheist, He only classified two classes of people. the righteous and the unrighteous. The righteous have a reward, they inherit the earth.

That matthew 24 passage concerning two in bed is a most mis-understood text. Let me show you why. Matthew 24 is based on two separate themes. One on the second coming of Christ and the appropriate signs, and the other theme that deals with the destruction of Jerusalem and the signs that will precede it.

Jesus used Noah's flood as a parallel illustration to explain what it will be like in the last days just as it was before the flood destroyed the wicked back then.

The key words are "taken" and 'left" , Now who was "taken" by Noah's flood? The wicked or the righteous? The wicked of course! Now who were left by the flood? The righteous of course!

When Jesus comes He will find two classes of people. The righteous, and the wicked. In this case it will be the righteous that will be left, and the wicked that will be taken. You may ask how would the wicked be taken? Its simple the bible didn't say how, but based on the parallelism given by Jesus, it would become logical that the wicked will be taken by the destruction that attends Jesus' coming, just as how the wicked back then were taken by the flood. Now how are the righteous left? Its simple, they are left alive, or they have remained alive.

Notice that the words "left' and "remain" mean the same thing, and that is why Paul used the very word "remain, " to describe the chosen ones when Jesus returns speaking of the destruction. Listen:

1 Thes. 4:16,17 "For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: 17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord."

Paul here is alluding to who will physically survive Christ's advent, and that is the righteous living. The wicked will be struck down by the glory of Christ. Another way to put the phrase "alive and remain" is "remain alive"

4. He comes as a thief in the night. A thief does not come with noise.

Two different passages with different contexts. Coming as a thief in the night means that there would be some who will be taken unawares. A thief doesn't make it known when he is coming. Point number 2 is that Paul is addressing the physical characteristics of Jesus' second coming. It will be visible, and well as audible. You dare not use one passage with a totally different meaning to nullify another passage with a totally different truth. You just don't play with God's words that way. I expect better!

"Its obvious we won't remain in the air. The bible says we will meet Him in the air. The phrase "so shall we ever be with the Lord" does not mean we will be with Him in the air forever. I mean if I were to say to my wife, "honey I will meet you in Los Angeles, and so shall we spend the rest of our lives together" Grin Does that mean it has to be in Los Angeles?"

But where is the air? You have wrongly assumed that the air means heaven, which is not scriptural. You have to take the scripture in the light of other scriptures and the overall intent of God. He created your forebearers on earth to live forever. The devil caused man to sin, leading to the sacrifice of a perfect blood- Christ. After that sacrifice, what gives?

Time lapse? I am talking about His return, and how the bible has described that return, and what is expected when He returns. Don't confuse the signs of His second return with the actual return itself.



Oga, there is a time lapse. It is clearly written in your scriptures. It is captured in all the synoptic gospels. Read Mathew 24: 30 - 34. Take note that after gathering his elects, the end is still not yet come! These are Christ's exact words not mine. That explains the fact that he comes like a thief. Your becoming a member of his kingdom is by him calling you (by election),. That also expalins the linkage to the days of noah.

He is not yet King of Kings so He cannot rule. Now He is High Priest making intercession and making atonement in the heavenly judgment.


Again this does not tally with what Christ himself says. "All powers is given unto me in heaven and in earth ", (Mathew 28:18-20). If all powers are his, what stops him rulling? He has to rule in heaven and on earth, at the coming of his kingdom. You have to understand that the Revelation is not arranged essentially in exact chronological order. You will miss the understanding if you assume it was[b] one event per chapter serially[/b]. Rev 20: 4. shows clearly that he saw souls that were killed for Christ at that era and they lived and reigned with Christ. That life was in the spiritual realm, that was why he saw their "souls", not their physical bodies. They were in that period priests of God, they ruled from the heavens spiritually with Christ. They were able to rule with Christ because they were lucky to be baptized of the Holy spirit, hence they earned the right for the first ressurection to heaven, therefore the 2nd death hath no hold on them. Rev 20:6. The 2nd death occurs if you are sent to hell with the judgement. It does not imply a physical death as such. In other words, they cannot go to hell! Let me also enlighten you about Ressurection. Ressurection occurs after death, it is simply the parting away of the spirit or soul from the mortal body. Some ressurrect to hell, to the abys, to the ocean, to heaven, depending on their works. I know you will now say but Christ ressurected on earth? Christ was more or less a spirit in his ressurrected body, but he had to show his disciples that he did ressurrect, to strenghten their faith. Notice that he cautioned them not to touch him as he has not ascended to his Father John 20:17. The time to get close to him physically will be when he regenerates or returns to the world the 2nd time.

[b]That matthew 24 passage concerning two in bed is a most mis-understood text. Let me show you why. Matthew 24 is based on two separate themes. One on the second coming of Christ and the appropriate signs, and the other theme that deals with the destruction of Jerusalem and the signs that will precede it.

Jesus used Noah's flood as a parallel illustration to explain what it will be like in the last days just as it was before the flood destroyed the wicked back then.

The key words are "taken" and 'left" , Now who was "taken" by Noah's flood? The wicked or the righteous? The wicked of course! Now who were left by the flood? The righteous of course!

When Jesus comes He will find two classes of people. The righteous, and the wicked. In this case it will be the righteous that will be left, and the wicked that will be taken. You may ask how would the wicked be taken? Its simple the bible didn't say how, but based on the parallelism given by Jesus, it would become logical that the wicked will be taken by the destruction that attends Jesus' coming, just as how the wicked back then were taken by the flood. Now how are the righteous left? Its simple, they are left alive, or they have remained alive.

Notice that the words "left' and "remain" mean the same thing, and that is why Paul used the very word "remain, " to describe the chosen ones when Jesus returns speaking of the destruction. Listen:[/b]

You are right that Christ made several prophecies in Mathew 24. One clearly dealt with the fate of Jerusalem which occured like 40 odd years after he died. The other was about signs of his coming, and the final one was about his coming and gathering his elects. See my explanation above. Read vs 30-31, with understanding the you will understand that there is indeed a lapse. It is also clear in Dan 7:9-14. If you read Rev from chapter 4 to chapter 5, you will notice that people were gathered on the throne of God and his Christ, in worship. These are during the release of the seals, with all the hardships on earth Rev 5 vs 16&17.


1 Thes. 4:16,17 "For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: 17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord."

Paul here is alluding to who will physically survive Christ's advent, and that is the righteous living. The wicked will be struck down by the glory of Christ. Another way to put the phrase "alive and remain" is "remain alive"


Paul's highly spiritual account should not be taken literally and should not be interpreted in conflict with what Christ said as well as what other scriptures said. If you check my earlier posts on this thread I analyzed thes 4: 16, 17. Goodluck in your search for Him, but please refrain from using words like "clueless"!

Two different passages with different contexts. Coming as a thief in the night means that there would be some who will be taken unawares. A thief doesn't make it known when he is coming. Point number 2 is that Paul is addressing the physical characteristics of Jesus' second coming. It will be visible, and well as audible. You dare not use one passage with a totally different meaning to nullify another passage with a totally different truth. You just don't play with God's words that way. I expect better!


You are right, his elect will know him and gather around him. "where the eagles are there the carcass is". The carcass is the kingdom of God, with God and his Christ present. The eagles are the elects.

My brother I am moving on. I have very little time to splits hairs with you.