Sometimes i wonder if some people have any brains at all or they are just pre -programmed robots who are not capable of thinking beyond what they have been indoctrinated to believe. The topic asks if it is sinful to take alcohol? whilst there is no where in the bible that it is described as a sin and our ultimate example Jesus christ was documented as a wine drinker/ producer some people would still go to great lenghts to force the opinions of their pastors into the scriptures. Sometimes i wonder why God bothered to give some people brains when they have sworn NEVER to use it.

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What do you want me to comment about in Numbers 28v7, that place says 'drink offering' twice. You wan chop drink offering or burnt offering? Some people have tried to knowingly/unknowingly mislead us to think Jesus was an alcoholic, a winebiber, one who loved intoxicating wine. That's why we've talked about wine NOT ALWAYS refering to intoxication.
That Jesus took ALCOHOL is based on shaky dreamy probability. Do you have an idea of the volume of wine that was to be taken at passover/Supper? Do you have an idea of the volume of wine that was produced in cana. Common, Jesus is the Holy Son of God, not nigerian breweries. He will never 'lead others into temptation', it's not in Him. It is blasphemy to assert so.
I just loaded and saved your page rabzy, I'll read it. It's good if you went through the previous link as well and the 'Jesus and wine' chapter link. Regards

do you have an idea of the number of people in attendance at the wedding? do you have an idea of the alcoholic content of the wine? do you have an idea how many days the feast lasted? do you have an idea if all the wine was drunk at the wedding and on a single day?

1 Corinthians 11:20-22 (American Standard Version)

20 When therefore ye assemble yourselves together, it is not possible to eat the Lord's supper:

21 for in your eating each one taketh before other his own supper; and one is hungry, and another is drunken.

22 What, have ye not houses to eat and to drink in? or despise ye the church of God, and put them to shame that have not? What shall I say to you? shall I praise you? In this I praise you not

1 Corinthians 11:20-22 (English Standard Version)
20When you come together, it is not the Lord’s supper that you eat. 21For in eating, each one goes ahead with his own meal. One goes hungry,(A) another gets drunk. 22What! Do you not have houses to eat and drink in? Or do you despise(B) the church of God and(C) humiliate those who have nothing? What shall I say to you? Shall I commend you in this? No, I will not.

why did paul say this if people were not getting drink at the passover, he said they have houses were they can indulge in eating and drinking if they want, why defile the house of God. This is clear example that the wine used for passover can intoxicate, paul did not condemn the wine or the type of wine but the attitude, the action the gluttony and drunkeness

Num 28:7
The one male lamb you will render up in the morning, and the other male lamb you will render up between the two evenings, 5 together with the tenth of an e′phah of fine flour as a grain offering moistened with the fourth of a hin of beaten oil; 6 the constant burnt offering, which was rendered up at Mount Si′nai as a restful odor, an offering made by fire to Jehovah, 7 along with its drink offering, the fourth of a hin to each male lamb. Pour out in the holy place the drink offering of intoxicating liquor to Jehovah.
Numbers 28:4-7 (New International Version)
4 Prepare one lamb in the morning and the other at twilight, 5 together with a grain offering of a tenth of an ephah [a] of fine flour mixed with a quarter of a hin [b] of oil from pressed olives. 6 This is the regular burnt offering instituted at Mount Sinai as a pleasing aroma, an offering made to the LORD by fire. 7 The accompanying drink offering is to be a quarter of a hin of fermented drink with each lamb. Pour out the drink offering to the LORD at the sanctuary.

God demanded from the israelites a portion of what he gave them to symbolize their thankfulness. He demanded for part of their daily provisions, he wants them to share their menu with him, what they eat, their oil, grain, their meat and their drink (fermented), its as if he was joining them at the table. How would he ask them to give him something that is sinful and give it to him, he always demand of the best e.g their firstborn, the finest calve, the finest devotion etc. Your url said Jesus could not offer alcoholic drink when alcoholics can be tempted to indulge by just the scent, thats interesting, while the israelites are bringing fermented drink/beer/wine  to the temple could alcoholics not be tempted, while pouring this fermented drink to God, do the Israelites close their nose and perhaps their eyes.

Why ask the high priest not to take wine while officiating, if by default they are not suppose to take or even sniff it, Its like saying dont swear/lie or fight while officiating, when by default these had already been condemned.
And please dont just pick a tiny piece of what i have written and attack that, so is lees still shelter, look at the whole body of mesage i have been posting on this issue, look again at my recent posts. Before i replied yesterday i went thru the url you qouted before posting and i commented on several of the points raised and i provided another url that answered some points raised.

I have never felt a craving for wine/beer or have i ever been tipsy for over 15 years that i first took beer, i rarely take them and i have never taken excess. And i am not unique, there are billions like me, who dont get drunk, who use alcohol moderately or occasionally.

@rabzy
keep up the good work, i am solidly behind you it is actually more sinful to be deluded than to get drunk on alcohol.

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Rabzy,
Talking about wine, you said that the scriptures 'IN SO MANY PLACES' is talking about avoiding excesses. No sir, most places wine is referred to in the negative. Unfortunately, you've failed to see that the word wine(/its equivalent in other languages) was used to describe both fermented and unfermented drinks. The juice of the grape(commonly called wine in scripture) could be taken but not in excess. These people were not as scientifically inclined as many are today. Unfermented wine wasn't full proof immune to fermentation. There was a thin line and ALl jews were careful not to take wine in excess. They were obviously learning from mistakes of others before them. They were not presumptous and their history had no respect for old wine,which was widely agreed to be intoxicating. It's the same lesson you should learn. Don't desire alcohol, abstain from all appearances of evil.

Bros, did you read my post, no respect for old wine? God is giving you aged wine, the url i sent brilliantly answered the issue of grape juice, God said 'pour that appearance of evil on my altar as a drink offering' are you condemning God? are they to keep the 'appearance of evil' in their house. Why cant the 'juice of grape' not be taken in excess if its okay, why cant the scriptures ask us not to take water in excess too, (a woman died from a drinking water contest in the US.

“Who has woe? Who has uneasiness? Who has contentions? Who has concern? Who has wounds for no reason? Who has dullness of eyes? Those staying a long time with the wine?

Proverbs 23:29-31 (Young's Literal Translation)

29Who hath wo? who hath sorrow? Who hath contentions? who hath plaint? Who hath wounds without cause? Who hath redness of eyes?

30Those tarrying by the wine, Those going in to search out mixed wine.

31See not wine when it showeth itself red, When it giveth in the cup its colour, It goeth up and down through the upright.
                 
       that place is talking about excess, is it the non-alcoholic juice of grape that causes that?,

New world translation
20 Do not come to be among heavy drinkers of wine, among those who are gluttonous eaters of flesh. 21 For a drunkard and a glutton will come to poverty, and drowsiness will clothe one with mere rags.

Proverbs 23:20-23 (New International Version)

20 Do not join those who drink too much wine
      or gorge themselves on meat,

21 for drunkards and gluttons become poor,
      and drowsiness clothes them in rags.

Is it the non-alcoholic grape of juice taken in excess that makes someone become a drunkard, is it what makes one become addicted and spend all his money on it until he becomes poor?

29 Who has woe? Who has sorrow?
      Who has strife? Who has complaints?
      Who has needless bruises? Who has bloodshot eyes?

30 Those who linger over wine,
      who go to sample bowls of mixed wine.

31 Do not gaze at wine when it is red,
      when it sparkles in the cup,
      when it goes down smoothly!

32 In the end it bites like a snake
      and poisons like a viper.

33 Your eyes will see strange sights
      and your mind imagine confusing things.

34 You will be like one sleeping on the high seas,
      lying on top of the rigging.

35 "They hit me," you will say, "but I'm not hurt!
      They beat me, but I don't feel it!
      When will I wake up
      so I can find another drink?"

is it the non-alcoholic grape of juice that makes you not know where you are or makes you numb to pain, does it make you addicted, such that you seek for more.

Proverbs 20:1 (New International Version)

Proverbs 20
1 Wine is a mocker and beer a brawler;
      whoever is led astray by them is not wise
Proverbs 20:1 (New American Standard Bible)

Proverbs 20
On Life and Conduct
   1(A)Wine is a mocker, (B)strong drink a brawler,
 
Proverbs 20
1Wine is a mocker, strong drink is raging: and whosoever is deceived thereby is not wise.
      And whoever is intoxicated by it is not wise
Proverbs 20
1 Wine is a mocker and beer a brawler; whoever is led astray by them is not wise
Proverbs 20:1 (Contemporary English Version)
Proverbs 20
1It isn't smart to get drunk!
  Drinking makes a fool of you
  and leads to fights
Proverbs 20:1 (New Living Translation)
Proverbs 20
1 Wine produces mockers; alcohol leads to brawls.
     Those led astray by drink cannot be wise

Note that it did not say, whoever takes it is a fool or not wise, but who ever is foolish to be led astray/deceived by it, and it is not evryone that is led astray. why did it not just say Whoever takes it.

Titus 2:2-3 (New Living Translation)
3 Similarly, teach the older women to live in a way that honors God. They must not slander others or be heavy drinkers.[a] Instead, they should teach others what is good
Titus 2:3 (New Century Version)
3 In the same way, teach older women to be holy in their behavior, not speaking against others or enslaved to too much wine, but teaching what is good.
Titus 2:3 (King James Version)
3The aged women likewise, that they be in behaviour as becometh holiness, not false accusers, not given to much wine, teachers of good things

does the juice of grape also enslave, what exactly in it enslaves people?

Please my brother, thank God we can search the scriptures ourselves and see the truth for ourselves.
Do you know that william tyndale was burned at the stake by the church, because he wanted common men to read the scriptures for themselves and not just what the clergy dishes out. Even all their titles, senior pastor, most senior pastor, arch bishop, father, revrend father, his eminence, his holiness, Daddy, where did all that come from? They have placed themselves on a pedestal of Highness and have become 'semigods' 'man of God' even if you air a diferent opinion or contest what they say, its the laymen that would scream 'dont commit sin o' its the man of God, you are doubting'. Even Jeremiah, Hosea, Habakuk, they questioned God, they doubted him. Pls these are just my other thots lets stick to the topic.

Pls i want sincere honest answers and not a condescending, holier-than-thou preacher's message. I am not, i repeat i am not a slave to alcohol, so pls dont ask me to shun all 'appearance of evil'. i know the evils God ask us to avoid very well and i do my best to avoid them, not the unecessary burdens some wants to place on us. Stick to the scriptures.

The Very Good Wine

"When the ruler of the feast had tasted the water that was made wine, . . . [he] called the bridegroom, And saith unto him, Every man at the beginning doth set forth good wine; and when men have well drunk, then that which is worse: but thou hast kept the good wine until now" (John 2:9-10).

The Lord Jesus performed many miracles during His brief ministry on Earth, and it seems rather surprising that the beginning of miracles (John 2:11) in His earthly ministry was to transform water into wine at a wedding feast in Galilee.  It was quite a large amount of wine--six large waterpots full, "containing two or three firkins apiece" (John 2:6).  Since a firkin is about ten gallons, Jesus created approximately 150 gallons of wine to give to a group of celebrants who already had "well drunk" (John 2:10),--that is, literally, were drunk.

But would Jesus really do something to increase the intoxication of a crowd of people who were already drunk? Would He really disregard such Scriptures as Habakkuk 2:15. "Woe unto him that giveth his neighbour drink, . . . and makest him drunken also, . . ." (among many others). He Himself had rebuked drunkenness (e.g., Luke 21:34), so this would be completely out of character.

But wine never becomes intoxicating until the decay process of fermentation has done its work.  The wine He created was probably the same as "the fruit of the vine" that we shall drink "new" with Him in His "Father's kingdom" (Matthew 26:29).  The Greek word oinos can apply either to the decayed, fermented liquid that intoxicates or to the healthful juice fresh off the grape vine, depending on context.  And this wine He made was good wine, just as everything He had created was "very good" (Genesis 1:31) in that ultimate beginning of miracles when first He "created all things" (Revelation 4:11). HMM

Olaadgbu would you stop spewing out this crap? there is absolutely NO way "fruit of the vine" would be described as better than mature alcoholic wine. Every one knows that wine gets better with age and any illeterate would tell you that wine that is not yet propely aged[fermented] is very poor quality wine and can NEVER be described as good wine. You really have a demonic passion for forcing your illogical and silly opinions into scripture.

OLAADEGBU:

But wine never becomes intoxicating until the decay process of fermentation has done its work. The wine He created was probably the same as "the fruit of the vine" that we shall drink "new" with Him in His "Father's kingdom" (Matthew 26:29). The Greek word oinos can apply either to the decayed, fermented liquid that intoxicates or to the healthful juice fresh off the grape vine, depending on context. And this wine He made was good wine, just as everything He had created was "very good" (Genesis 1:31) in that ultimate beginning of miracles when first He "created all things" (Revelation 4:11). HMM

Imagine you even used the word probably which indicates you are not even sure yet you have been arguing rubbish for weeks on this topic. You sincerely need to stop forcing your opinion into scripture the fact tht you don't like alcohol iss not enough reason for Jesus to disapprove of it.

Oladeegbu, the man in charge of the feast was not refering to the crowd in the marriage feast, he was just referring to what people would normally do.
why would Jesus even give wine or grape juice to people who are already drunk, why did he not just ask them to go home in the drunken state, they would need sleep more than anything.
Whatever number of gallons that were provided, do you know the number of people at the feast, do you know the alcohol content of the wine, do you know how many days the feast lasted.
would you say your the drink you provided at a feast is not enough when a considerable number of your guests are drunk, Would Mary have said the wine was not enough if people have already drank to stupor, does that not imply that there were several people or considerable number of people would have had nothing to drink.

Think brother, think for yourself and search the scriptures, answer these questions honestly and answers the ones i asked in my previous posts?

Hi,rabzy. I'm not able to reply your posts as I may wish,cos I'm not using my computer but my phone this period and that may be so for a while. Nonetheless,lets see.
Lees is dregs,remains, sediments or deposits. It doesn't always have to be of FERMENTED WINE. Fresh grape juice can have sediments as well. You can try it on your own,possibly with squeezed orange in a cup. Forget dico and co, you'll see lees/remains settled in the cup. If you insist anyway that the wines on the lees Must be alcoholic, well the Isaiah 25v6 passage says WELL REFINED. The wine is refined/purified/treated. i.e it's the purest thing around. I don't see even the remotest possibility of drunkeness adver Jesus comes. It's Jesus we're talking about here,not Mo'. I'll say more on that later though

Kunle stop wondering, not everyone is insolent and insubordinate. There are believers who 'obey them that have rule over' them. Whatever your feelings, God approves of it so mind your business.
You have failed to realize that the word 'wine' was and is used to refer to BOTH fermented wine and other drinks, too bad. It does not take a 1st class student to know that 'oil' in the Bible doesn't always have to be palm oil, 'bread' doesn't always have to be what we call bread today, 'meat' does not always have to be what we call meat today, and the same applies to wine. It's common sense,it doesn't require greek scholarship. To assume that wine is always your preconceived definition of ALCOHOL, shows who really cannot think outside the LITTLE box.

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Kunle stop wondering, not everyone is insolent and insubordinate. There are believers who 'obey them that have rule over' them. Whatever your feelings, God approves of it so mind your business.
You have failed to realize that the word 'wine' was and is used to refer to BOTH fermented wine and other drinks, too bad. It does not take a 1st class student to know that 'oil' in the Bible doesn't always have to be palm oil, 'bread' doesn't always have to be what we call bread today, 'meat' does not always have to be what we call meat today, and the same applies to wine. It's common sense,it doesn't require greek scholarship. To assume that wine is always your preconceived definition of ALCOHOL, shows who really cannot think outside the LITTLE box.

Forget all this crap you are writting and all your attempts to twist the word and force your conceited opinion into it, just show me one single scripture that says christians should consume wine or alcohol in the bible and i would sheath my sword. we have already showed you several which shows that the consumption of alcohloic wine was a normal practice amongst Jesus, his disciples and the early church. Reminds me of our debate on the false doctrine of tithes which after several months of ranting you were unable to justify based on sound scriptural references. You guys just have to learn that you cannot continue to twist scripture and force your opinions into it even if your poorly trained pastors tells you so. I know most of them lie on the holy spirit when they twist scripture to justify their lapses but that was in the past knowledge is so easy to acquire these days.

Rabzy,what sort of questions are you asking me? Do I know the number of people at the wedding? Do you also know? It is not stated,but I think it is absurd to imagine that they were probably in their thousands, that the whole of Galilee,Cana and more were present as your url suggests. Brother it was a wedding,not a crusade. Everybody knows wedding, we don't need books and rabbis to inflate 'possible' wedding population. Do I have an idea of the alcoholic content? Do you for sure? Do I have an idea of how many days the feast lasted? It is not stated or do you? We're told SOME not all marriage feasts last up to 3-7 days. One thing we're sure of is,this was not the beginning of the feast whether 1hour or 1year.

Why is it that you people build your alcohol points on negatives. Now you're quoting 1Cor 11 to support you!, that's funny. The Spirit of God through Paul was correcting the corinthians and condemning their actions, but here you are, using their condemned actions to support alcohol. You want to lay your foundations on the carnal corinthians, who couldn't receive spiritual meat, who were committing fornication with their in.laws? Whose actions usually suprised the Spirit. What?
Look at it again, 1Cor11 v17 says 'I praise you NOT'. Why is it that rabzy is the one praising them and saying it is a clear example of 'wine used for passover.' v20 said they were NOT eating the Lord's supper, v21 says his own supper. They were eating their own supper, not the Lord's. v22 says the suprised WHAT?

This is english,you understand I'm sure. You don't need Ph.d or greek scholarship to understand these. The corinthian practise was wrong, it wasn't worthy of praise/emulation. They were in no way clear example. The clear example is Christ and that's who 1Cor 11v23 points to. That reminds me, do you know that the Jewish passover had nothing to do with wine? Exodus 12 says it is the lamb,with unleavened bread and bitter herbs.
As you may have seen, Exodus 12v15 says they were to eat unleavened bread and PUT AWAY leaven OUT of your houses. Exodus 13v7 repeats that leaven must not be seen in all your quarters. Leaven is yeast and it is what was/and is used to make fermented wine. Infact Ex 12v19 and co says intake of leaven products during passover could lead to 'drastic' measures. Any wine taken could not have been leavened/fermented.

Numbers 28 is talking about sacrifices/offerings,all which point to Christ Jesus, not to God's table manners as you suggested. It is an offering/sacrifice, for atonement, to be poured like blood was poured. It was all concerning Christ, not about us sharing menu with God or God joining us at table. And when we come to Christ our passover/offering, He shows us the way,for He is the Way.
The bible records that after supper Jesus took the cup and gave them. Matthew 26v29 describes its content as 'this fruit of the vine.' every sincere person knows that the fruit of the vine is grapejuice, and also the passover room could not contain leavened products like fermented wine. And then Jesus 'clothes' the cup with NEW as if to give full proof that this cup's content is NEW. He symbolizes it as NEW testament and He says He'll not drink until He drinks it NEW in the kingdom to come.

Continued ASSUMPTION, under unlicensed probability, that the wine used at the Lord's supper was fermented wine, has no biblical support. It is this NEW fruit of the vine that Jesus promises to drink in the kingdom age, not some FERMENTED wine on the lees.
Now for you to assume that BILLIONS of people take alcohol without getting drunk is insincere and without base. BILLIONS?Are you talking about humans or animals. You're not aware of the sorry rate of drunkeness all over the world and its effects? Spare us this cock and bull abeg.

The use of alcohol for passover was practise that was later introduced long before Jesus came, even the grape juice you were talking about was not there at the begining, so dont harp about that, Jesus could as well have left it out then, so he was following a general custom which was not wrong. The case of drunkeness during the passover meal was a proper opportunity for paul to admonish the christians to stop taking alcohol outrightly buy he did not. The accusation of drunkeness that peter refuted was a perfect opportunity to declare ALCOHOL IS A SIN, but he did not, The Scriptures keep warning and condemning the effects of drunkeness, i have asked you again and again why talk about EXCESS when even a little is a SIN.

To say that am praising them is a lie, which you did on purpose to malign me, the discussion was about the substance used not on their conduct,well i forgive you.

Then I don’t know where you found out that lees refer to any deposit/residue, (petrol residue, paint residue, Juice residue) No it is used for residues that are left during the aging of wine. Grape juice cannot have such residue except it is undergoing fermentation, if you squeeze out grape juice or orange juice, those things that immediately go to the bottom are just the seed particles or the fibres, when it is referred to as lees it connotes fermentation. That is why the Bible verses also use well-aged wine.
Lees refers to deposits of dead yeast or residual yeast and other particles that precipitate, or are carried by the action of "fining", to the bottom of a vat of wine after fermentation and aging. The yeast deposits in beer brewing are known as trub. However, yeast deposits from secondary fermentation of beer are referred to as lees.

Normally the wine is transferred to another container (racking), leaving this sediment behind. Some wines, (notably Muscadet), are sometimes aged for a time on the lees (a process known as sur lie), leading to a distinctive yeasty aroma and taste. The lees may be stirred (batonnage in French) in order to promote uptake of the lees flavor.
[LEEZ] The heavy, coarse sediment that accumulates during fermentation and aging. Lees primarily consists of dead yeast cells and small grape particles that fall to the bottom of the fermentation tank or barrel. In most cases, this sediment is separated from the wine through racking. Sometimes the wine is left in contact with the lees in an attempt to develop more flavor. See also sur lie

I agree that grape Juice when harvested does not intoxicate, but do you know how long it takes for fermentation to start? SIX HOURS. How many people do you think would have access to such unfermented grape juice? Most probably just the harvester and then he would have to drink all he has harvested that same day, he wont be able to sell. How would the whole nation of Israel be able to have access to fresh grape juice constantly, that means they cant buy such at the market, how long do you think harvesting the juice, transporting them home, putiing them in jars, transporting to the market and selling all your grape juice would take. SIX Hours, 24 Hours, days perhaps weeks, answer that yourself.

When you say fresh grape juice, remember you are talking about time which is relative, therefore relative to what, of course relative to well preserved wines/well aged wines that could be kept for months. So a day old wine could be fresh, a three day old wine could also be fresh, if it has not lost the sweet taste of grape. But it does not mean it cant intoxicate, and that is why the Bible warned against taking excess of both the old wine and the sweet wine/new wine in the following verses

Hosea 4:11 (New King James Version)
The Idolatry of Israel
    11 “ Harlotry, wine, and new wine enslave the heart.
Hosea 4:11 (English Standard Version)
11whoredom, wine, and new wine,
   which(A) take away the understanding.
11 to prostitution;
       old wine and new wine
       take away their understanding. (Today’s new international version)
Hosea 4:11 (King James Version)
11Whoredom and wine and new wine take away the heart.

You need to ask yourself why was new wine also specifically mentioned, how does new wine take away understanding just like 'wine' or old wine as you say.

Why did the scriptures say it was going to give us well-oiled dishes and well-aged wine. Maybe not Billions (and you dont have to be sarcastic about the numbers, or implying whether i meant animals, you are insultive and you don't have to be) of people take alcohol everyday, but am sure millions worldwide take alcohol and we dont pick millions on the street, so there must have some self control in some people if not most. Brother (i dont think you really see me as a brother, am sure am more like someone condemn to you), people can take alcohol without getting tipsy or drunk. my secondary school biology even teaches that our food finally turns to alcohol before it is absorbed (am not an expert on that, but i think i remember that).

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Why is it that you people build your alcohol points on negatives. Now you're quoting 1Cor 11 to support you!, that's funny. The Spirit of God through Paul was correcting the corinthians and condemning their actions, but here you are, using their condemned actions to support alcohol. You want to lay your foundations on the carnal corinthians, who couldn't receive spiritual meat, who were committing fornication with their in.laws? Whose actions usually suprised the Spirit. What?
Look at it again, 1Cor11 v17 says 'I praise you NOT'. Why is it that rabzy is the one praising them and saying it is a clear example of 'wine used for passover.' v20 said they were NOT eating the Lord's supper, v21 says his own supper. They were eating their own supper, not the Lord's. v22 says the suprised WHAT?

I have consistently scriptures several time more than you do and i have quoted thru the whole sections of the Bible and from different translations.
The verses that put alcohol in a good light, you conveniently said it is non-alcoholic grape juice/sweet wine and not fermented wines,
The verses that put alcohol in bad light is actually talking about excesses with wine, not wine in itself.

I said it would have been far easier for the Bible to categorically say dont take old wine or fermented wine, but it didnt, rather it says God would give us well-aged wine.
Remember God specifcally forbade some meat for the israelites, giving examples species by species, types by type, even saying you can eat this specie but dont eat the one that has this particular feature, if he could go into details for birds and animals, why did he not say 'wine after fermentation should not be taken, simple as ABC). Have you thot about that?

oladeegbu said the bible was condemning excesses with non-alcoholic sweet wine/new wine/grape juice and i quoted several scriptures where it show sweet wine/new wine and grape juice (yes, because it can be partially fermented after 6 hours and well fermented after days, you dont honestly think everybody has access to it in hours, or the farmers that store their 'fruit of wine' after harvesting dont take them after it is a day old/ or partially fermented), no comments from you.

Where paul said 'take a little wine (note it did not say new wine) for your stomach' would that be putting wine in a negative light or positive.

I think you are the one being mischievous, am not a drunk and i have never being drunk, but i know the truth and it sets people free from pharisee-like rigidity, who put unnecessary burden on the common man and created their own set of rigid rules about fasting, sabbath, tithes, dedication of gifts to God as against taking care of ones parents etc.

Well am going to list some other verses and ask you to ponder on them?

5Wake up, you drunkards, and weep! Wail, all you drinkers of wine; wail because of the new wine, for it has been snatched from your lips

5Awake, ye drunkards, and weep; and howl, all ye drinkers of wine, because of the new wine; for it is cut off from your mouth.
King James Version (KJV)
5Awake, ye drunkards, and weep, And howl all drinking wine, because of the juice, For it hath been cut off from your mouth.
Young's Literal Translation (YLT)

Also i want you to consider this, the levites in Israel dont have farmland, they were not given any land inheritance, so the whole nation has to feed the levites by giving them a tenth of what God has blessed them with, grains, oil, sweet wine etc. Then the levites are also to take a tenth of what they were given and give this to God.
(2 Chronicles 31:4-5) 4 Furthermore, he said to the people, the inhabitants of Jerusalem, to give the portion of the priests and of the Levites, in order that they might adhere strictly to the law of Jehovah. 5 And as soon as the word broke forth, the sons of Israel increased the firstfruits of the grain, new wine, and oil and honey and all the produce of the field, and the tenth of everything they brought in abundantly. . .

Are the israelites allowed to rest after a hard day of harvesting their crops and grape juice, before they embark on the journey to the temple or wherever they were to present their tithes or are day to rush down so as to prevent the grape juice from being fermented.
How many days do you think it would take for the israelites to bring their produce from the farm, travel from their cities to where they could present these gifts to the priests, then for the priests in charge to share these to the whole tribe of Levi?
What kind of Wine do levites, who get their wine from those brought by the rest of the nations take, is it fresh grape juice or fermented grape juice?
Can the levites take the new wine to their wives and children at home, would the ones taken home also be fresh grape juice? (am finding it really hard not to laugh if your answer would be 'yes fresh grape juice/unfermented sweet wine/miraculous grape juice that dont get fermented)
How long do you think the grape Juice/new wine would remain unfermented? would the levites throw away their now fermented grape juice?
The remaining nine parts that were not presented to the levites, are they to consume them immediately on the farm or drink it immediately they get home so that it wont ferment, can they offer a visitor the wine after some days, can't they sell part of it days or weeks later at the market or are these thrown away?.

The israelites of course brought new wines from their vineyards, but they were in varying states of fermentation.

Nehemiah 10
37And the beginning of our dough, and our heave-offerings, and the fruit of every tree, of new wine, and of oil, we bring in to the priests, unto the chambers of the house of our God, and the tithe of our ground to the Levites; and they -- the Levites -- have the tithes in all the cities of our tillage;
38and the priest, son of Aaron, hath been with the Levites in the tithing of the Levites, and the Levites bring up the tithe of the tithe to the house of our God unto the chambers, to the treasure-house;
Young's Literal Translation (YLT

37 Moreover, we will bring to the storerooms of the house of our God, to the priests, the first of our ground meal, of our grain offerings, of the fruit of all our trees and of our new wine and oil. And we will bring a tithe of our crops to the Levites, for it is the Levites who collect the tithes in all the towns where we work.
38 A priest descended from Aaron is to accompany the Levites when they receive the tithes, and the Levites are to bring a tenth of the tithes up to the house of our God, to the storerooms of the treasury.
New International Version - UK (NIVUK.

Nehemiah 13:12
All Judah brought the tithes of grain, new wine and oil into the storerooms.
New International Version - UK (NIVUK)

Lets assume the Israelites could bring the fresh wine/grape juice from their vineyard straight to the temple, present it to the priests, collect into jars and finally being put into store houses. HOW LONG WOULD THE FRESH WINE REMAIN UNFERMENTED IN THE STORE HOUSES OF THE LORD. WHY WOULD THE LORD ALLOW SUCH 'an appearance of evil or outright evil in his house'.

From all obvious reasons, fresh totally unfermented grape juice is a rarity, would be very scarce, for a commodity that is sold in the market, it would be hard to find any in the market. Of course you could get partially fermented grape juice or even if you get really fresh unfermented wine, what does the merchant do to the wine the next day or some days after, would they throw it away, after all the effort of planting, harvesting.
Did the law tell them to throw away their wine after a few days, like they do when their garments, utensils become unclean from touching unclean things.

Brother it is beyond sense, and totally absurd to think, it was a sin for the israelites and the early christians to take wine/fermented grape juice. Ans in any case they never said they don't.

Have a wonderful day, image123.

Image123:

Forget dico and co, you'll see lees/remains settled in the cup. If you insist anyway that the wines on the lees Must be alcoholic, well the Isaiah 25v6 passage says WELL REFINED. The wine is refined/purified/treated. i.e it's the purest thing around. I don't see even the remotest possibility of drunkeness adver Jesus comes. It's Jesus we're talking about here,not Mo'. I'll say more on that later though

Like i said in my earlier posts, that is not lees, lees have specific usage, not just when you squeezed grape juice into a cup, seeds will settle, unbroken juice will settle, orange fibre will settle. Lees is the settlement after hours of storage as a result of fermentation, it has to do with settlements that occur after the irreversible chemical change caused by fermentaion.

Isaiah 25:6 also call it well-aged wine, which tallys perfectly with the lees or dregs under the well aged wine. Well-refined is qualifying the well-aged wine, i.e the fermented wine is decanted or drained out of their jars, and all sediments/lees or other particles are then refined, drained. filtered out leaving the clear, fine choice wine, nobody wants to take dregs/nor wood particles from the jar or stones along with their wine, or can you filter the alcohol out of the well-aged wine. Its just the impurities that could have been a product of fermentation/harvesting/particles from the environment that are filtered or refined from it.

Please be real, brother.

KunleOshob:

@rabzy
keep up the good work, i am solidly behind you it is actually more sinful to be deluded than to get drunk on alcohol.

Hello Kunle, thanks for your message, i should have said hi before now, but i get so wrapped up with replying image123, that i could hardly think of saying hello. I hope you are fine, do you honestly discussed tithe issue with image123 for months, men una try o. I dont think i can continue this beyond a few more days, i have virtually gone thru the whole bible checking out where it mentioned wine/sweet wine etc, just to find our the context and the message behind it.
Tithing has become a big scam for pastors and to think that it was a mosaic law arrangement meant for non-working levites, who dont become stupendously rich from the proceeds, except those that the Bible condemn for stealing such in the temple, and to know that the apostles never asked any christian to bring tithes to them, in fact many of them work for themselves and fend for themselves. They only sometinmes accept voluntary contributions for their daily needs, whenever they are unable to provide such for themselves or someone just wants to show appreciation to them. Not these men that amass so much wealth that a thieving bank director would even envy.

I dont think you get drunk too, so its not as if we are justifying our debauchery.
Cheers man

rabzy:

I dont think you get drunk too, so its not as if we are justifying our debauchery.
Cheers man

Was just kidding i am strongly against excessive consumption of alcohol/ drunkeness how ever i find twisting of biblical facts even more nauseating.

rabzy:


I think you are the one being mischievous, am not a drunk and i have never being drunk, but i know the truth and it sets people free from pharisee-like rigidity, who put unnecessary burden on the common man and created their own set of rigid rules about fasting, sabbath, tithes, dedication of gifts to God as against taking care of ones parents etc.

The above highlighted phrase is simply spot on and i simply love it in infact i would hence forth include it in my vocabulary. Isn't it amazing that 2000 years on after Jesus came to redeem us from this rigidity our so called men of God[mordern day pharisees] are still holding on to it. They even hold on to defunct laws like tithes and seed sowing whilst they ignore the weightier matters of the law laws which Jesus established which is to show love to others. Are these people really following christ or they are just using his name to love-vendor their trade

Rabzy,the point is not that 'ALCOHOL for passover was later introduced',the point is that passover didn't include wine(fermented or unfermented). If any wine was drank,it couldn't be fermented because nothing yeasted was permitted. If the corinthians drank fermented wine(which is not stated), well they were wrong. And you did praise the corinthians. For heaven's sake,you said the corinthians were CLEAR EXAMPLES.(What is praise? To admire,complement). How can you say Jesus was following a general custom. It was not a general custom to use fermented wine for passover, the Bible doesn't show that, and Jesus came to fulfill the law. The law says nothing fermented/leavened/yeasted for the seven days of passover.
And you say I was insultive,how? Well I'm very sorry. But you're the one who has called me a pharisee,mischievous,condemner,sarcastic,demonizer.Such accusations hardly moves me.My mentors(like Jesus) were hardly moved. What you said was that billions of people are like you,that they don't get drunk(at least not in the past 15yrs). Its the end of post 193. I don't condemn you,it's not my job.

Drinking alcohol is not bad but abusing
it is

Image123:

And you say I was insultive,how? Well I'm very sorry. But you're the one who has called me a pharisee,mischievous,condemner,sarcastic,demonizer.Such accusations hardly moves me.My mentors(like Jesus) were hardly moved. What you said was that billions of people are like you,that they don't get drunk(at least not in the past 15yrs). Its the end of post 193. I don't condemn you,it's not my job.

If Jesus was truly your mentor then you would be more interested in keeping his commandments to help the poor than your pastors commandents to tithe and sow seeds in his church which were NEVER part of Jesus teachings and were actually part of the dogma he fought against. Also you would not engage in twisting scripture to prove your delusions as it is quite obvious that Jesus who you claim to be your mentor used to consume alcoholic wine{luke 7:33-34} no matter you try to twist that scriptutre or wave it aside

Rabzy and co,
It's rather obvious that you didn't read the link/book that I referred you to OR you read it and fermented it. Are you aware that wine can be kept from fermenting? Are you aware that grape juice doesn't naturally become what you call 'wine',it has to be induced to become 'wine'. Grape juice that is left to naturally ferment becomes vinegar,not fermented wine. There is something called food preservation, grape juice was preserved. They couldn't preserve as efficiently as we can in the modern world,but they did preserve. And that's why they were always extra careful not to take too much of wine(even new) because their wineskins were not labeled non-alcoholic or 4% alcohol content or such like,as we can label today. Wine was always in danger of fermenting,just like fish is in danger of spoiling. But it could be preserved to an extent for decent periods. It was not COMMON/normal to be drunk in Israel,it was gentiles and lawless jews who had respect for old wine. Jews always cherished new wine ahead of any other.
Lees is insoluble matter that settles from A LIQUID,especially from wine;sediments;dregs.
It says especially,NOT always. Insoluble matter also settles from orange juice, fresh grape juice, crudeoil, fermented wine and many other LIQUIDs. It doesn't have to be only from FERMENTED wine.

By the way, Jesus has told us the kind of wine to be drank at the kingdom age. It's repeated through I think 3 of the gospels,it is the fruit of the vine that will be drunk and it is NEW. I'll rather believe Jesus, He knows what He's talking about.

Image123:

Rabzy and co,
It's rather obvious that you didn't read the link/book that I referred you to OR you read it and fermented it. Are you aware that wine can be kept from fermenting? Are you aware that grape juice doesn't naturally become what you call 'wine',it has to be induced to become 'wine'. Grape juice that is left to naturally ferment becomes vinegar,not fermented wine. There is something called food preservation, grape juice was preserved. They couldn't preserve as efficiently as we can in the modern world,but they did preserve. And that's why they were always extra careful not to take too much of wine(even new) because their wineskins were not labeled non-alcoholic or 4% alcohol content or such like,as we can label today. Wine was always in danger of fermenting,just like fish is in danger of spoiling. But it could be preserved to an extent for decent periods. It was not COMMON/normal to be drunk in Israel,it was gentiles and lawless jews who had respect for old wine. Jews always cherished new wine ahead of any other.
Lees is insoluble matter that settles from A LIQUID,especially from wine;sediments;dregs.
It says especially,NOT always. Insoluble matter also settles from orange juice, fresh grape juice, crudeoil, fermented wine and many other LIQUIDs. It doesn't have to be only from FERMENTED wine.

So i guess it was grape juice Jesus was accused of being drunk with in luke 7:33-34

Isaiah 5v22 says WOE to those who are mighty to drink wine i.e wine heroes,wine champions,the ideal 'winers',shining examples,guarantors,advocates. Proverbs says 'It is NOT FOR kings to drink wine.' Proverbs 20v1 says 'wine is a mocker.' It ridicules you. We are warned so much to be sober(a direct opposite of drunk), we're told to be controlled by God's Spirit,not by wine. Proverbs 23v32 tells us that wine bites like a serpent and adder at last. Scripture is filled with a plethora of examples of people who got drunk. What else do you want? Isn't even just Proverbs 31 enough? Don't you know that these things were written for our examples, to make us perfect and fit for God? Must you have every saint harping about wine? Don't you understand that the kingdom of God is more than that,and there are more important things to dwell on.
Noah was the most righteous man in his generation,wine had no such respect. Lot was the most righteous man in his city,he couldn't control wine.kings and eminent people made terrible actions cos they could not control wine.

But billions today, according to you, or at least MILLIONS are in perfect control. No sir, let every man be wrong and God be true, wine bites at last.
At pentecost, Peter had no need to say 'Christians don't drink wine'. The ACCUSATION was ridiculous. If I follow your reasonings,I could also say 'A man accused of murder doesn't have to say I'm a christian,we don't kill.' It may be more natural for him to say 'that dead person is my wife or my friend or my child.' Its not compulsory for him to use a courtroom defence like 'I don't kill people,check up my records'. It is absurd to wake up to get drunk in any part of this planet. Even today, people go to the winehouse/beer parlor majorly in the evenings, not at the 3rd hour of the day. 120 people couldn't be drunk at that time. It was NOBLESP who concluded that the apostles were drunk at that time. It's okay for Peter to tell that to be reasonable,instead of declaring his spirituality. Why is it that its mockers that keep saying apostles are drunk and Jesus is winebiber? Why do you infer from these people, why do you stand behind them,why sit with the scornful?
Christ and christians have always been accused. Jesus was accused of madness and demon possession. The devil(accuser) is the chief behind this. He is a liar and the father of lies

At this stage i would leave image123 to his delusions i need to go take a cold bottle of beer

The OT says kings should not drink wine,it also says priests should not drink wine. It says wine should not be brought into the temple for drinking. How does that apply to us as NT believers. We're today's priests and kings,so says the Bible. It is not for kings to drink wine, leave it for the people who are ready to perish. We are the temple of God,wine shouldn't come into that temple for recreation purposes. (N.B the above wines refer to fermented wine not non.alcoholic wine)
Proverbs 14v15 says the simple/foolish believe everything,but the prudent looks well to his going. Proverbs 22v3 says the prudent man foresees the evil(AT LAST) and hides himself. The simple continues and are punished.

I've not come here saying alcohol is a sin,I should remind you that alcohol can be found even outside fermented wine. It is its right use that I've called for(like it can be used in cleaning,production,fuelling etc). I've come correcting folks who think Jesus was an alcoholic &that He endorsed alcohol consumption of any %. I've come against using the Bible to falsely defend alcoholism. That's what a forum is for, for discussion, for learning. It's not for accusations and assertions(kunleOshob's trademarks).
Kunle's talking about DISCUSSING tithes with me. Discussing? Does Kunle discuss? If he does,it's rare. He majors in loading accusations and thinking others are under spell of some scam pastors who lie under HolySpirit. He hardly addresses issues,but goes in worthless cycles. When you explain and dissolve his quotes&scripture references,he hardly refers to what you've said as right or wrong. He simply brings up another 'point',then another and another, until he comes back to the first one like you never mentioned it. He does all these with a lot of vent&condemnation,calling demons&angels against you. You see,one just have to leave him to himself,and avoid unprofitable debates/strifes/webpage abuse rant