Welcome, Guest: Join Nairaland / LOGIN! / Trending / Recent / New
Stats: 2,756,984 members, 6,551,778 topics. Date: Friday, 22 October 2021 at 09:49 PM

Open Letter To Seun And Politics Section Moderator(s) - Politics (11) - Nairaland

Nairaland Forum / Nairaland / General / Politics / Open Letter To Seun And Politics Section Moderator(s) (12151 Views)

The Moderator(s) On Politics Section Are So Lazy / Moderator(s) Why Did You Lock This Thread...https://www.nairaland.com/1363216/b ? / Moderator/s In Chief: Operation Nigeria Makeover (2) (3) (4)

(1) (2) (3) ... (8) (9) (10) (11) (12) (Go Down)

Re: Open Letter To Seun And Politics Section Moderator(s) by Afam(m): 11:41am On Dec 30, 2009
Katsumoto:

Afam,

We are all here to share opinions, educate, and learn at the same time. Why do you continue to call it justification even when I have condemned the unjust killings?

It is not a secret that the Igbos were doing very well in the North. I suspect, going by the trends that I have observed in my lifetime, that the Northerners would have been envious of the success of the Igbos. I am not sure if I have heard of a call to kill the Igbos and take their properties but I can not doubt that it is true. The question I have for you is this, 'was the call before or after the first coup?'.

Before the coup.

Katsumoto:

If there was a call to kill the Igbos, why did they remain in the North, why were they not protected? Why are there still so many Igbo people in the North today? The North has not changed much since the 60s; if anything, they strike at southerners for the most flimsy excuses.

This is the problem. When the Igbos want out Nigeria will not let them go. When they try to survive by setting up businesses in regions outside their own people wonder why they have to go to other regions to do business. I guess this answers your questions.

I am sure if you conducted a survey today and ask Igbos anywhere in the world if they would want a separate nation you would find out that the majority would answer in the affirmative due to the many injustices, unequal opportunities and deliberate stagnation of the typical progressive nature of the Igbos.

Now, can Nigeria allow them to go? If yes, then they should. If no then they should stop wondering why they are complaining.

Katsumoto:

Now a question for the Igbo chaps; Dede, Afam, OnlyTruth, and others
Does a coup carried out by predominantly eastern officers targeting non-igbo political and military elite appear to have an objective of making the Igbo the predominant power brokers in Nigerian politics and military circles? Please be objective, we all seem to be educated and enlightened individuals. I have repeatedly admitted that the Igbos were targeted unjustly and that the massacres can be called genocide.

Igbo chaps? I will attempt to answer your question when you leave out the Igbo chaps stuff as that was not necessary. I do not even know your tribe but it does not affect our discussions so you can do without labeling people.
Re: Open Letter To Seun And Politics Section Moderator(s) by Katsumoto: 11:46am On Dec 30, 2009
Afam:


Igbo chaps? I will attempt to answer your question when you leave out the Igbo chaps stuff as that was not necessary. I do not even know your tribe but it does not affect our discussions so you can do without labeling people.

I meant no disrespect by that; I apologise if you take offence. Igbo is not derogatory and neither is chaps.
Re: Open Letter To Seun And Politics Section Moderator(s) by Katsumoto: 11:54am On Dec 30, 2009
Afam:


This is the problem. When the Igbos want out Nigeria will not let them go. When they try to survive by setting up businesses in regions outside their own people wonder why they have to go to other regions to do business. I guess this answers your questions.

I am sure if you conducted a survey today and ask Igbos anywhere in the world if they would want a separate nation you would find out that the majority would answer in the affirmative due to the many injustices, unequal opportunities and deliberate stagnation of the typical progressive nature of the Igbos.

Now, can Nigeria allow them to go? If yes, then they should. If no then they should stop wondering why they are complaining.


I agree with you. I have advocated previously on this forum that any region that does not feel a part of the nation should be allowed to go. Secession or disintegration should be part of any discussion or SNC. I am however of the opinion that we should strike at the heart of our problems and consequently be rid of the ills in our society.

There is a reason for this. Igbos are good at certain industries, Yorubas are good at certain things, the same for the Ijaws, hausas, Tivs, etc. If we iron out our difference, Nigeria will be better for it. Divided we fall. But to summarise, if one region wants to continue to deliberately marginalise other regions, then we should be free disintegrate Nigeria.

If the Igbos are periodically massacred for living and engaging in profitable enterprise in other regions of Nigeria, then I can not be-grudge them for wanting out.
Re: Open Letter To Seun And Politics Section Moderator(s) by BrutusOne: 12:04pm On Dec 30, 2009
@Oga Afam, no vex about the "Igbo Chap", I am sure Oga Katsumoto didn't mean anything by it.

This is the problem. When the Igbos want out Nigeria will not let them go. When they try to survive by setting up businesses in regions outside their own people wonder why they have to go to other regions to do business. I guess this answers your questions.

I am sure if you conducted a survey today and ask Igbos anywhere in the world if they would want a separate nation you would find out that the majority would answer in the affirmative due to the many injustices, unequal opportunities and deliberate stagnation of the typical progressive nature of the Igbos.
[size=6pt][/size]

Does this mean the Igbos have out-grown Igboland in terms of development/advancement, and that the Nigerian State is stagnating their ability to expand? If this is the case how does succession solve that problem? Please excuse my ignorance.
Re: Open Letter To Seun And Politics Section Moderator(s) by Katsumoto: 12:10pm On Dec 30, 2009
BrutusOne:

@Oga Afam, no vex about the "Igbo Chap", I am sure Oga Katsumoto didn't mean anything by it.

This is the problem. When the Igbos want out Nigeria will not let them go. When they try to survive by setting up businesses in regions outside their own people wonder why they have to go to other regions to do business. I guess this answers your questions.

I am sure if you conducted a survey today and ask Igbos anywhere in the world if they would want a separate nation you would find out that the majority would answer in the affirmative due to the many injustices, unequal opportunities and deliberate stagnation of the typical progressive nature of the Igbos.
[size=6pt][/size]

Does this mean the Igbos have out-grown Igboland in terms of development/advancement, and that the Nigerian State is stagnating their ability to expand? If this is the case how does succession solve that problem? Please excuse my ignorance.

I don't think that is what he meant. I think he meant that any Nigerian should be free to set up enterprise anywhere in the country that he/she is a citizen of. What remains indeterminate is whether the Igbos would or would not carry on trading in the other regions (If there is no Nigeria) post secession or disintegration.
Re: Open Letter To Seun And Politics Section Moderator(s) by Afam(m): 12:16pm On Dec 30, 2009
Katsumoto:

I meant no disrespect by that; I apologise if you take offence. Igbo is not derogatory and neither is chaps.

No wahala.

Katsumoto:

I agree with you. I have advocated previously on this forum that any region that does not feel a part of the nation should be allowed to go. Secession or disintegration should be part of any discussion or SNC. I am however of the opinion that we should strike at the heart of our problems and consequently be rid of the ills in our society.

There is a reason for this. Igbos are good at certain industries, Yorubas are good at certain things, the same for the Ijaws, hausas, Tivs, etc. If we iron out our difference, Nigeria will be better for it. Divided we fall. But to summarise, if one region wants to continue to deliberately marginalise other regions, then we should be free disintegrate Nigeria.

If the Igbos are periodically massacred for living and engaging in profitable enterprise in other regions of Nigeria, then I can not be-grudge them for wanting out.


I believe that a bigger nation would benefit everyone rather than balkanization of the country on the condition that fair play, justice and equity must be respected.

However, let us remember that we are not yet a nation hence the mutual mistrust amongst ethnic groups. Throw in the events between 66 - 70 and the deliberate plan to twist the facts and you get a dangerous scenario.

No one can undo what was done in the past but acknowledgement would help a great deal towards healing the wounds. I doubt if any Igbo man or woman wants to get paid for the massacres. Just acknowledgement and for once let the facts be respected.

A regular truth and reconciliation type of arrangement would help in this regard.

After all before the coup most of the officers had mentors from other regions and people trusted themselves irrespective of tribe.

I must agree that the coup created problems due to the execution but that can never justify the senseless killing of tens of thousands of people whose crime was  just being Igbos or from the then Eastern region.

The counter coup targeted officers and soldiers from Eastern region and most of the victims were even butchered in the prisons and you won't hear Igbos complaining about that because in the real sense it was a counter coup and meant to pay back in kind so to say.

But to kill innocent civilians who were friends, colleagues, neighbors etc based on what some soldiers did? I refuse to believe that anyone can justify that.

In fact, the very fact that it cannot be justified is the sole reason for the twisting of the facts concerning what happened. But, how long can you tell a lie? One day, the lie will collapse and wounds that should have been healed long ago would reopen as if they are fresh wounds.
Re: Open Letter To Seun And Politics Section Moderator(s) by Katsumoto: 12:22pm On Dec 30, 2009
Afam:

No wahala.

I believe that a bigger nation would benefit everyone rather than balkanization of the country on the condition that fair play, justice and equity must be respected.

However, let us remember that we are not yet a nation hence the mutual mistrust amongst ethnic groups. Throw in the events between 66 - 70 and the deliberate plan to twist the facts and you get a dangerous scenario.

No one can undo what was done in the past but acknowledgement would help a great deal towards healing the wounds. I doubt if any Igbo man or woman wants to get paid for the massacres. Just acknowledgement and for once let the facts be respected.

A regular truth and reconciliation type of arrangement would help in this regard.

After all before the coup most of the officers had mentors from other regions and people trusted themselves irrespective of tribe.

I must agree that the coup created problems due to the execution but that can never justify the senseless killing of tens of thousands of people whose crime was  just being Igbos or from the then Eastern region.

The counter coup targeted officers and soldiers from Eastern region and most of the victims were even butchered in the prisons and you won't hear Igbos complaining about that because in the real sense it was a counter coup and meant to pay back in kind so to say.

But to kill innocent civilians who were friends, colleagues, neighbors etc based on what some soldiers did? I refuse to believe that anyone can justify that.

In fact, the very fact that it cannot be justified is the sole reason for the twisting of the facts concerning what happened. But, how long can you tell a lie? One day, the lie will collapse and wounds that should have been healed long ago would reopen as if they are fresh wounds.

I agree with the above but do not understand the text in bold; please expantiate further. What facts were twisted and who twisted the facts? I may know what you are talking about but I am not certain.
Re: Open Letter To Seun And Politics Section Moderator(s) by BrutusOne: 12:25pm On Dec 30, 2009
Katsumoto:

I don't think that is what he meant. I think he meant that any Nigerian should be free to set up enterprise anywhere in the country that he/she is a citizen of. What remains indeterminate is whether the Igbos would or would not carry on trading in the other regions (If there is no Nigeria) post secession or disintegration.

Thanks for the clarification - {Re: Bold} . . .was my quandary too.
Re: Open Letter To Seun And Politics Section Moderator(s) by Afam(m): 12:50pm On Dec 30, 2009
Katsumoto:

I agree with the above but do not understand the text in bold; please expantiate further. What facts were twisted and who twisted the facts? I may know what you are talking about but I am not certain.

Twisted facts

1. The first coup was an Igbo coup

2. No Igbo officer died in the coup

3. There was no massacre of innocent Igbo men. women and children especially in the Northern parts of the country

4. That Ironsi (who foiled the coup and jailed the coupists) was spared by the coup planners.

These are some of the twisted facts.
Re: Open Letter To Seun And Politics Section Moderator(s) by OEO: 1:08pm On Dec 30, 2009
If only you know ElRazur very well, you will not be adking such a question. He is a skeemer of the highest order.

More power to your wrist! ride high!
Re: Open Letter To Seun And Politics Section Moderator(s) by ElRazur: 1:13pm On Dec 30, 2009
^^^^

Re: Open Letter To Seun And Politics Section Moderator(s) by Katsumoto: 1:46pm On Dec 30, 2009
Afam:

Twisted facts

1. The first coup was an Igbo coup

2. No Igbo officer died in the coup

3. There was no massacre of innocent Igbo men. women and children especially in the Northern parts of the country

4. That Ironsi (who foiled the coup and jailed the coupists) was spared by the coup planners.

These are some of the twisted facts.

I agree with number 2 and 3 but I disagree with the rest. Look at the lists below.

Coup plotters
Major Emmanuel Ifeajuna - Igbo
Major Patrick Chukwuma Kaduna Nzeogwu - Mid-west Igbo
Major Tim Onwuategwu - Igbo
Major Don Okafor - Igbo
Major Chris Anuforo - Igbo
Major Humphrey Chukwuka - Igbo
Major Adewale Ademoyega - Yoruba
Captain Emmanuel Nwobosi - Igbo
Captain Ben Gbulie - Igbo
Captain Oji - Igbo
Some argue that Kpera was a Northern soldier but he was not an officer nor was he high command.
Add to the list above Major Obienu who did not turn up on the morning of the coup.


Victims in red and italic below
Alhaji Abubakar Tafawa Balewa – PM North
Sir Ahmadu Bello Gov Northern Region
Chief Samuel Ladoke Akintola Gov Western Region
Chief Festus Okotie-Eboh Finance Minister Mid-west


Major-General Johnson Aguiyi-Ironsi GOC – Nigerian Army East: Igbo
Commodore Joseph Wey Commanding Officer – Navy Mixed Yoruba/eastern minority
Brigadier Samuel Ademulegun CO – 2nd Brigade – Kaduna West: Yoruba
Brigadier Zakariya Maimalari CO – 1st Brigade – Lagos North: Kanuri

Brigadier Babafemi Ogundipe Nigerian military attaché in London West: Yoruba
Colonel Kur Mohammed (Acting) Chief of Staff at Army HQ –North: Kanuri
Colonel Ralph Shodeinde Deputy-Commander, NMTC: Kaduna West: Yoruba

Colonel Robert Adeyinka Adebayo Attending a course in London West: Yoruba
Lt-Colonel Yakubu Gowon Preparing to take over command of the 2nd battalion North: Angas
Lt-Colonel Francis Fajuyi (was on leave in his home town of Abeokuta during the coup) CO 1st Battalion – Enugu West: Yoruba
Lt-Colonel Hilary Njoku CO – 2nd Battalion – Lagos East: Igbo
Lt-Colonel George Kurubo CO – 3rd Battalion – Kaduna East: Rivers
Lt-Colonel Abogo Largema CO – 4th Battalion – Ibadan North: Kanuri
Lt-Colonel Chukwuemeka Odumegwu Ojukwu CO – 5th Battalion – Kano East: Igbo
Lt-Colonel James Pam Adjutant-General of the Nigerian Army North: Birom
Lt-Colonel Arthur Unegbe Quartermaster-General  Mid-West: Igbo

Lt-Colonel Ime Imo CO – Lagos Garrison East: Igbo
Major Hassan Usman Katsina CO – 2nd Reconnaissance squadron – Kaduna North: Fulani
Major John Obienu CO – 1st Reconnaissance squadron – Abeokuta East: Igbo
Major Adegoke - Not sure of his command - West: Yoruba

It remains unclear why Unegbe was killed but some argue that he was killed because of his closeness to Maimalari. Adebayo and Ogundipe were overseas, so we can not speculate whether they may have been killed or not. Fajuyio was on leave in Abeokuta; again we can not speculate on what could have become of him. Some argue that he sympathised with the plotters.
Ironsi jailed the coupists but he failed to court-martial them. That was the first statement made to him by Danjuma when the Northerners struck back in July. These are the facts; let everyone reach their own conclusions.
Re: Open Letter To Seun And Politics Section Moderator(s) by Afam(m): 4:20pm On Dec 30, 2009
1. The first coup was an Igbo coup

2. No Igbo officer died in the coup

3. There was no massacre of innocent Igbo men. women and children especially in the Northern parts of the country

4. That Ironsi (who foiled the coup and jailed the coupists) was spared by the coup planners.

Ok, you disagree with nos 1 and 4 above based on your response.

I also appreciate your preference for facts so we will base our agreements or disagreements on them, not speculation, abi?

1. The majority of the coup planners were Igbos with officers from other parts of Nigeria that are non Igbos.

A simplistic conclusion would be that the Igbos planned the coup but would this line of argument stand any serious scrutiny when officers (not even mentioning soldiers who were armed while Nzeogwu was not when he led them into the palace and these people were informed about what they were about to do) from other tribes took part in the coup?

2. These officers never represented the Igbos as they were career officers just as you have bankers today and as such claiming that they represented the Igbos is another blatant lie that should not be allowed to stand any day.

Do we now label arrested armed robbers for instance as representing the tribe majority of them represent based on simple arithmetic?

3. It is a well known fact that the Igbos (outside the military) were doing well in different sectors and as such do not need anyone to carry out a coup to help them in anyway. This is another important point that is being overlooked. Why would a people that are doing well want bloodshed to continue doing well?

The reality is that anyone that is doing well will likely lose out in any war so the actions of some of the officers cannot be said to help the Igbos in any form.

4. Ironsi not court marshalling the coupists cannot be equated to being part of the coup even though he foiled it and imprisoned the coup plotters.

May I also remind you that even in the military then the issue of coup was new as that was the very first coup so i doubt if there was any precedence for him to reference so as to kill them for people to stop alleging the coup plotters spared him.

5. Ojukwu never attacked anyone from the first coup to the second counter coup and up to the declaration of Biafra 3 days after Gowon created some states in order to weaken the Eastern region by using divide and rule hence the issue of abandoned properties and carving out of large portions of Igbo land and giving them to Rivers state.

So, Ojukwu in reality defended the Eastern region after declaring Biafra when Nigeria waged a war with the region.

I am glad that we are airing our opinions on these based on facts so that those who are not aware will be aware instead of the hate that is being spread from generation to generation based on lies and speculations of what the Igbos represented or what they did.

We must move ahead but not without setting the records straight and those responsible accepting responsibilities of their actions or inactions.

Bottom line is that the killing of over 30,000 Igbo people by their neighbors and colleagues cannot be justified anytime any day.
Re: Open Letter To Seun And Politics Section Moderator(s) by Katsumoto: 5:29pm On Dec 30, 2009
Afam:

Ok, you disagree with nos 1 and 4 above based on your response.

I also appreciate your preference for facts so we will base our agreements or disagreements on them, not speculation, abi?

1. The majority of the coup planners were Igbos with officers from other parts of Nigeria that are non Igbos.

A simplistic conclusion would be that the Igbos planned the coup but would this line of argument stand any serious scrutiny when officers (not even mentioning soldiers who were armed while Nzeogwu was not when he led them into the palace and these people were informed about what they were about to do) from other tribes took part in the coup?

The soldiers were unaware of their mission until they got to Sardauna's house. Without the time to think and reach a concensus, they couldn't have disobeyed a superior officer. Nzeogwu was not only superior to them in rank, he was the top instructor at the NMTC. Even in Nigeria today, people do things that they do not agree with are afraid of a backlash from superiors.

Afam:

2. These officers never represented the Igbos as they were career officers just as you have bankers today and as such claiming that they represented the Igbos is another blatant lie that should not be allowed to stand any day.

Do we now label arrested armed robbers for instance as representing the tribe majority of them represent based on simple arithmetic?

My opinion is that the plotters had different objectives. Nzeogwu (a man I idolised growing up) was the only one completed his objectives. I believe that he might have had noble intentions; I think he was genuinely concerned about the situation in the country. Ifeajuna and Onwuategwu, in my opinion had Igbo motives. I say this because of the manner in killing targets. Ifeajuna killed Maimalari, Largema, Balewa. Onwuategwu killed Shodeinde and his pregnant wife as well as Ademulegun. They could all have been arrested. Mohammed, Balewa, and Okotie-Eboh were also killed when it was obvious that the coup was going to fail.

You also take into consideration that Ifeajuna was Zik's cousin. Zik was president and was warned by Ifeajuna. Zik went on holiday leaving his government at the mercy of the plotters. This act alone COULD point at an Igbo agenda. Then take the case of Nwafor Orizor who was the Senate President and acting President who willingly handed over power to Ironsi. Please bear in mind that I am only playing devil's advocate with this line. I can not categorically conclude that there was an Igbo agenda, although I am deeply suspicious of Ifeajuna.

Afam:


3. It is a well known fact that the Igbos (outside the military) were doing well in different sectors and as such do not need anyone to carry out a coup to help them in anyway. This is another important point that is being overlooked. Why would a people that are doing well want bloodshed to continue doing well?

The reality is that anyone that is doing well will likely lose out in any war so the actions of some of the officers cannot be said to help the Igbos in any form.

Yes the Igbos were doing well in all spheres of life in post independence Nigeria; no one can argue with that. But with Igbo people in charge of the military and government, they would have had an added advantage; in business, it is called a competitive advantage. With a less educated populace, the Hausa/Fulani have used this advantage in the past to appoint less qualified Northerners to lucrative positions. We are all aware of this as Nigerians.

Afam:


4. Ironsi not court marshalling the coupists cannot be equated to being part of the coup even though he foiled it and imprisoned the coup plotters.

May I also remind you that even in the military then the issue of coup was new as that was the very first coup so i doubt if there was any precedence for him to reference so as to kill them for people to stop alleging the coup plotters spared him.
I did not infer that Ironsi was part of the coup; it was an argument used by Danjuma, Martins Adamu, and Murtala to kill Ironsi. Yes coup plotting was new to Nigeria but I think Ironsi should at least have done something. The Northern elite were openly pressuring Murtala to do something. Everyone in Nigeria knew there was going to be a revenge coup, yet Ironsi did nothing. He did not protect his people or himself. I am sure that there must have been something in the Constitution about treason or conduct of officers. He could have used that to kill the plotters. That would have gone a long way in pacifying some people. It may not have stopped the revenge coup according to the call to kill Igbos you referred to earlier.

Afam:


5. Ojukwu never attacked anyone from the first coup to the second counter coup and up to the declaration of Biafra 3 days after Gowon created some states in order to weaken the Eastern region by using divide and rule hence the issue of abandoned properties and carving out of large portions of Igbo land and giving them to Rivers state.

So, Ojukwu in reality defended the Eastern region after declaring Biafra when Nigeria waged a war with the region.

Now Ojukwu's conduct before the war was something to be proud off. His actions were noble and pure. He had a lot to lose with war yet he stood to defend his people. Ojukwu pleaded with Ogundipe not to resign and challenged the choice of Gowon as HOS. He argued that the most senior officer, Ogundipe, should be HOS. He also pressed for the recruitment of Yoruba soldiers to fill positions in Lagos rather than Northern soldiers. It was a lack of support for Ogundipe that allowed the coup of July 66 to succeed. Ojukwu chose to defend his people. I only question his strategy but that is not for this thread.

Afam:


I am glad that we are airing our opinions on these based on facts so that those who are not aware will be aware instead of the hate that is being spread from generation to generation based on lies and speculations of what the Igbos represented or what they did.

We must move ahead but not without setting the records straight and those responsible accepting responsibilities of their actions or inactions.

Bottom line is that the killing of over 30,000 Igbo people by their neighbors and colleagues cannot be justified anytime any day.

I agree with you again that the killing of 30,000 Igbo people was not justified. In a situation involving rational people, the July plotters should have only killed the January plotters and not even the other innocent officers. But we don't always deal with rational people and that is life. As a strategist, If I were Murtala, I may not have killed the innocent Igbo/ Eastern officers (those who did not take part in the January coup) but I certainly would not have left them in the Army (even as civilians, they can still pose a danger).

"Men ought either to be indulged or utterly destroyed, for if you merely offend them they take vengeance, but if you injure them greatly they are unable to retaliate, so that the injury done to a man ought to be such that vengeance cannot be feared."
Niccolo Machiavelli
Re: Open Letter To Seun And Politics Section Moderator(s) by Afam(m): 5:48pm On Dec 30, 2009
Thanks for your response. You helped to explain other salient issues I left out and that will benefit all the parties.

As regards your comments with words like "COULD" or "THINK" I would reply thus - let us stick to the facts as we cannot think or claim to know what some of the participants had in mind and more importantly the Igbos never needed the military to help them progress as they were already doing well.

Comparing a possible military induced Igbo advantage to the current style where excellence is being sacrificed at the altar of mediocrity by having incompetent people appointed into office is a collective insult on the Igbo people as such never existed.

However, the Machiavelli quote could also be used by the Igbos that survived the massacres to kill non Igbos and I am sure no one would justify that. So, while some famous quotes may sound cool, in reality the acceptance could be catastrophic.

No one has monopoly of violence and I am sure that for the simple fact that you still find Igbos in all parts of Nigeria including where their brothers and sisters were massacred in the past without any reason goes to show that the Igbos do not harbor hate otherwise they would not venture into non Igbo states.

All the Igbos want are justice, fair play, equality and honesty. Let the best man win. No magomago, no wuruwuru QED.
Re: Open Letter To Seun And Politics Section Moderator(s) by Katsumoto: 6:11pm On Dec 30, 2009
Afam:

Thanks for your response. You helped to explain other salient issues I left out and that will benefit all the parties.

As regards your comments with words like "COULD" or "THINK" I would reply thus - let us stick to the facts as we cannot think or claim to know what some of the participants had in mind and more importantly the Igbos never needed the military to help them progress as they were already doing well.

Comparing a possible military induced Igbo advantage to the current style where excellence is being sacrificed at the altar of mediocrity by having incompetent people appointed into office is a collective insult on the Igbo people as such never existed.

However, the Machiavelli quote could also be used by the Igbos that survived the massacres to kill non Igbos and I am sure no one would justify that. So, while some famous quotes may sound cool, in reality the acceptance could be catastrophic.

No one has monopoly of violence and I am sure that for the simple fact that you still find Igbos in all parts of Nigeria including where their brothers and sisters were massacred in the past without any reason goes to show that the Igbos do not harbor hate otherwise they would not venture into non Igbo states.

All the Igbos want are justice, fair play, equality and honesty. Let the best man win. No magomago, no wuruwuru QED.

Afam, na everything be insult to Igbo people? grin grin grin grin grin Agreed that the current system is mediocre but an advantage is an advantage.

I accept your comment on the quote; anyone can decide on an agenda of retribution. I think most people, and not just the Igbos, want justice, fair play, equlity, and honesty in Nigeria; but how many are willing to work for it?

I think we have debated this issue at length, perhaps we should always refer anyone to this thread whenever the issues of the 60s are mentioned. I hope others can also add to this thread.

Thanks for your contribution Afam.
Re: Open Letter To Seun And Politics Section Moderator(s) by Afam(m): 6:16pm On Dec 30, 2009
@Katsumoto,

Thanks for your comments.

Please, do not misunderstand me, I don't see everything as insult to the Igbos, I only point out what can be proven especially the glaring ones.

Do have a fruitful new year ahead.

Many thanks for your time.
Re: Open Letter To Seun And Politics Section Moderator(s) by Katsumoto: 6:57pm On Dec 30, 2009
Afam:

@Katsumoto,

Thanks for your comments.

Please, do not misunderstand me, I don't see everything as insult to the Igbos, I only point out what can be proven especially the glaring ones.

Do have a fruitful new year ahead.

Many thanks for your time.
I wish you the same my brother.
Compliments to everyone on the thread; I pray that God will heal the pains and the rifts of the years gone by and that our nation will rise and be recognised amongst the league of nations.
Re: Open Letter To Seun And Politics Section Moderator(s) by Onlytruth(m): 8:15pm On Dec 30, 2009
@Katsumoto
^^^^

Just before the Kumbaya, you side-stepped the fact that the killings of Igbo civilians (the pogrom proper) was not conducted by military personnel of the north or elsewhere. It was conducted by civilians -neighbors killing neighbors. I believe that is at the heart of the discourse. I don't really care much about northern soldiers killing Igbo politicians and soldiers. Igbo civilians never participated in anything in January 1966. So, how come civilians in the north and west descended on their Igbo neighbors in an or.g.y of killing? That is at the root of the whole national question. The Machiavelli quote is really unfortunate and out of context. That question could help prognosticate a possible repeat. Are Igbos safe in Nigeria? What will trigger the next killings?
Re: Open Letter To Seun And Politics Section Moderator(s) by nduchucks: 8:54pm On Dec 30, 2009
Onlytruth:

@Katsumoto
^^^^

Just before the Kumbaya, you side-stepped the fact that the killings of Igbo civilians (the pogrom proper) was not conducted by military personnel of the north or elsewhere. It was conducted by civilians -neighbors killing neighbors. I believe that is at the heart of the discourse. I don't really care much about northern soldiers killing Igbo politicians and soldiers. Igbo civilians never participated in anything in January 1966. So, how come civilians in the north and west descended on their Igbo neighbors in an or.g.y assembly of killing? That is at the root of the whole national question. The Machiavelli quote is really unfortunate and out of contest. That question could help prognosticate a possible repeat. Are Igbos safe in Nigeria? What will trigger the next killings?

The bolded is a silly and dumb question. Soldiers killed off their revered leaders in a matter of 1 day, civilians reacted to the killngs, and you ask such a dumb question.
Re: Open Letter To Seun And Politics Section Moderator(s) by Katsumoto: 8:58pm On Dec 30, 2009
Onlytruth:

@Katsumoto
^^^^

Just before the Kumbaya, you side-stepped the fact that the killings of Igbo civilians (the pogrom proper) was not conducted by military personnel of the north or elsewhere. It was conducted by civilians -neighbors killing neighbors. I believe that is at the heart of the discourse. I don't really care much about northern soldiers killing Igbo politicians and soldiers. Igbo civilians never participated in anything in January 1966. So, how come civilians in the north and west descended on their Igbo neighbors in an or.g.y assembly of killing? That is at the root of the whole national question. The Machiavelli quote is really unfortunate and out of contest. That question could help prognosticate a possible repeat. Are Igbos safe in Nigeria? What will trigger the next killings?

OnlyTruth don come again with wahala oooooo.   grin grin grin grin grin grin grin grin grin grin grin grin
When I said that the killing of innocent Igbos was unjustified, I knew perfectly well that the killings were carried out by civilians. Whether the killings were carried out by civilians or soldiers, it was deplorable none the less. I am aware that most of the killings took place in the North and I have heard that there were events in the west as well but is documented to a lesser extent.
If you look at Nigeria today, even with the rivalry between the Yorubas and the Igbos, it hardly descends to loss of life. Igbos will always be safe in the west because Yorubas will be the last to fight; they like party too much.  grin grin grin grin grin grin

I am sorry that you take offense to the Machiavelli quote but I do not think it is out of context. Machiavelli is used as a reference in Strategy courses in Business Schools and military academies. They do not use it to encourage action; rather they use it to encourage people to think through their actions rationally before carrying them out because you can not tell how far the other person will go. That is the context in which I use it. I do not use it to justify the attempted annhilation of a people.

The people massacred should be remembered and some sort of monument built in remembrance. The only question I have is, 'are Nigerians matured enough to have it as just a remembrance or will they use it to justify evil actions in the future?'. In my opinion, the climate is not right at the moment. There are still a lot of issues in Nigeria to be resolved and I do not think that we have the right kind of sincere leaders to push for it. Please let me know if I have not adequately addressed the issues raised by you.

Something else that I have noticed. Football was the best and only sphere of life gluing Nigeria together. I think Nigerians are integrating better these days. There are a lot of inter-tribal marriages. There is collaboration in films, music, and other arts amongst all the tribes. These positive changes will help in better cohesion in the future. Southerners should stop looking down on Northerners; the Northerners have been failed more by their leaders than the southerners have been failed by their leaders. The south must push for the education and enlightenment of the North. Once that happens, Northerners would be able to think and act for themselves rather than depending on the words of some mischief makers.
Re: Open Letter To Seun And Politics Section Moderator(s) by Katsumoto: 9:03pm On Dec 30, 2009
ndu_chucks:

The bolded is a silly and dumb question. Soldiers killed off their revered leaders in a matter of 1 day, civilians reacted to the killngs, and you ask such a dumb question.

Where have been all the while? Have you been following this discourse?
Re: Open Letter To Seun And Politics Section Moderator(s) by Onlytruth(m): 9:11pm On Dec 30, 2009
ndu_chucks:

The bolded is a silly and dumb question. Soldiers killed off their revered leaders in a matter of 1 day, civilians reacted to the killngs, and you ask such a dumb question. 

Dumb question for a mass murdering Almajiri

Katsumoto:

Where have been all the while? Have you been following this discourse?

He has been watching from the safety of his spiderhole in Mutallab-land  grin
Re: Open Letter To Seun And Politics Section Moderator(s) by Onlytruth(m): 9:18pm On Dec 30, 2009
Katsumoto:

Something else that I have noticed. Football was the best and only sphere of life gluing Nigeria together. I think Nigerians are integrating better these days. There are a lot of inter-tribal marriages. There is collaboration in films, music, and other arts amongst all the tribes. These positive changes will help in better cohesion in the future. Southerners should stop looking down on Northerners; the Northerners have been failed more by their leaders than the southerners have been failed by their leaders. The south must push for the education and enlightenment of the North. Once that happens, Northerners would be able to think and act for themselves rather than depending on the words of some mischief makers.


I completely disagree with you on the bolded points. Since as far back as I can remember, the north has enjoyed all types of educational preferential treatment and financial support from the federal government. None of those efforts helped move the north away from Islamic to western education. We don't owe them anything. If I can contribute to scholarship schemes for the poor peoples of my town in Igboland, the northerners who have stolen lion shares of Nigeria's money should be able to do far more for their people.
Re: Open Letter To Seun And Politics Section Moderator(s) by nduchucks: 9:23pm On Dec 30, 2009
Katsumoto:

Where have been all the while? Have you been following this discourse?

I have been enjoying your conversation with Afam and I must say that I appreciate its mature nature.

While the Araba killings in question were deplorable by any standard, it is quite obvious that it was triggered by the coup, marked by the killing of leaders from the North and West, as you pointed out.  

Onlytruth, in his infinite dumbness decided to ask a stupid question and I felt compelled to straighten him out.  Onlytruth is a seccesionist who is not interested in reason or facts - he is what my friends would calll olodo rabata. dan iska

Happy New Year in advance.
Re: Open Letter To Seun And Politics Section Moderator(s) by Katsumoto: 9:28pm On Dec 30, 2009
Onlytruth:

I completely disagree with you on the bolded points. Since as far back as I can remember, the north has enjoyed all types of educational preferential treatment and financial support from the federal government. None of those efforts helped move the north away from Islamic to western education. We don't owe them anything. If I can contribute to scholarship schemes for the poor peoples of my town in Igboland, the northerners who have stolen lion shares of Nigeria's money should be able to do far more for their people.

I agree that some effort has been made in educating the Northerners. I do believe that they were not encouraged properly; while the southerners were competing for the best JAMB, Bar, Common entrance, etc results, the Northerners were not motivated because of the disingenous approach of their leaders. Why do you think the British did not push for the education of the North? Because they realised that they could rule indirectly through the Northerners. It was a strategy designed for selfish (British, Northern elite) ends.

I think that Nigeria would be better off with more independent northerners. With more educated northerners, the northern elite would wield less power.
Re: Open Letter To Seun And Politics Section Moderator(s) by Onlytruth(m): 9:30pm On Dec 30, 2009
ndu_chucks:

I have been enjoying your conversation with Afam and I must say that I appreciate its mature nature.

While the Araba killings in question were deplorable by any standard, it is quite obvious that it was triggered by the coup, marked by the killing of leaders from the North and West, as you pointed out.  

Onlytruth, in his infinite dumbness decided to ask a silly question and I felt compelled to straighten him out.  Onlytruth is a seccesionist who is not interested in reason or facts - he is what my friends would calll olodo rabata. dan iska

Happy New Year in advance.

And you are a duplicitous unionist who is not interested in reason or facts.
Your thieving kinsmen desperately need the union to enable you continue with your thefts. Ok, since you so much believe in the union, why not hand over the presidency to Goodluck Ebele Jonathan.
Why are you pussyfooting  
Only the gullible will continue buying your lies. Muddefukcer. angry
Re: Open Letter To Seun And Politics Section Moderator(s) by Onlytruth(m): 9:37pm On Dec 30, 2009
Katsumoto:

I agree that some effort has been made in educating the Northerners. I do believe that they were not encouraged properly; while the southerners were competing for the best JAMB, Bar, Common entrance, etc results, the Northerners were not motivated because of the disingenous approach of their leaders. Why do you think the British did not push for the education of the North? Because they realised that they could rule indirectly through the Northerners. It was a strategy designed for selfish (British, Northern elite) ends.

I think that Nigeria would be better off with more independent northerners. With more educated northerners, the northern elite would wield less power.

Does that also explain why the northern elites refuse to educate their peoples? If the answer is the affirmative, how do you think southern elites can solve such a problem? Let me tell you this, until the north sees an equally armed and irrational counterpart in the south, they would never educate their people. The northerners believe that violence will guarantee their continued domination of Nigeria. That is why an almajiri like ndu_chucks is here to defend backwardness and insult the section of the country that has ever won international respect for Nigeria. His section is "cursing" the black race. Nonsense!
Re: Open Letter To Seun And Politics Section Moderator(s) by nduchucks: 9:42pm On Dec 30, 2009
Onlytruth:

And you are a duplicitous unionist who is not interested in reason or facts.
Your thieving kinsmen desperately need the union to enable you continue with your thefts. Ok, since you so much believe in the union, why not hand over the presidency to Goodluck Ebele Jonathan.
Why are you pussyfooting  
Only the gullible will continue buying your lies. Muddefukcer. angry

The bolded portion of your statement above, exposes your lack of understanding of Nigeria and the Nigerian condition. It is quite obvious to intelligent observers that the thieving elite, who come from North, East, South, and West, are responsible for the actions in your statement above. You are unfortunately too drunk to see this obvious facts.

Mr. Jonathan should become the acting President if the conditions stipulated in the constitution are met, period. I wonder whether you have contacted your representative in the house of assembly (if you know who he is) to initiate an impeachment proceeding, if you believe Yar'Adua has committed any related impeachable offense.

Onlytruth:

That is why an almajiri like ndu_chucks is here to defend backwardness and insult the section of the country that has ever won international respect for Nigeria.

Please lookup the meaning of the word almajiri, I don't believe you know what it means. dummy. cheesy
Re: Open Letter To Seun And Politics Section Moderator(s) by Dede1(m): 9:44pm On Dec 30, 2009
Katsumoto:

I agree with number 2 and 3 but I disagree with the rest. Look at the lists below.

Coup plotters
Major Emmanuel Ifeajuna - Igbo
Major Patrick Chukwuma Kaduna Nzeogwu - Mid-west Igbo
Major Tim Onwuategwu - Igbo
Major Don Okafor - Igbo
Major Chris Anuforo - Igbo
Major Humphrey Chukwuka - Igbo
Major Adewale Ademoyega - Yoruba
Captain Emmanuel Nwobosi - Igbo
Captain Ben Gbulie - Igbo
Captain Oji - Igbo
Some argue that Kpera was a Northern soldier but he was not an officer nor was he high command.
Add to the list above Major Obienu who did not turn up on the morning of the coup.


Victims in red and italic below
Alhaji Abubakar Tafawa Balewa – PM North
Sir Ahmadu Bello Gov Northern Region
Chief Samuel Ladoke Akintola Gov Western Region
Chief Festus Okotie-Eboh Finance Minister Mid-west


Major-General Johnson Aguiyi-Ironsi GOC – Nigerian Army East: Igbo
Commodore Joseph Wey Commanding Officer – Navy Mixed Yoruba/eastern minority
Brigadier Samuel Ademulegun CO – 2nd Brigade – Kaduna West: Yoruba
Brigadier Zakariya Maimalari CO – 1st Brigade – Lagos North: Kanuri

Brigadier Babafemi Ogundipe Nigerian military attaché in London West: Yoruba
Colonel Kur Mohammed (Acting) Chief of Staff at Army HQ –North: Kanuri
Colonel Ralph Shodeinde Deputy-Commander, NMTC: Kaduna West: Yoruba

Colonel Robert Adeyinka Adebayo Attending a course in London West: Yoruba
Lt-Colonel Yakubu Gowon Preparing to take over command of the 2nd battalion North: Angas
Lt-Colonel Francis Fajuyi (was on leave in his home town of Abeokuta during the coup) CO 1st Battalion – Enugu West: Yoruba
Lt-Colonel Hilary Njoku CO – 2nd Battalion – Lagos East: Igbo
Lt-Colonel George Kurubo CO – 3rd Battalion – Kaduna East: Rivers
Lt-Colonel Abogo Largema CO – 4th Battalion – Ibadan North: Kanuri
Lt-Colonel Chukwuemeka Odumegwu Ojukwu CO – 5th Battalion – Kano East: Igbo
Lt-Colonel James Pam Adjutant-General of the Nigerian Army North: Birom
Lt-Colonel Arthur Unegbe Quartermaster-General  Mid-West: Igbo

Lt-Colonel Ime Imo CO – Lagos Garrison East: Igbo
Major Hassan Usman Katsina CO – 2nd Reconnaissance squadron – Kaduna North: Fulani
Major John Obienu CO – 1st Reconnaissance squadron – Abeokuta East: Igbo
Major Adegoke - Not sure of his command - West: Yoruba

It remains unclear why Unegbe was killed but some argue that he was killed because of his closeness to Maimalari. Adebayo and Ogundipe were overseas, so we can not speculate whether they may have been killed or not. Fajuyio was on leave in Abeokuta; again we can not speculate on what could have become of him. Some argue that he sympathised with the plotters.
Ironsi jailed the coupists but he failed to court-martial them. That was the first statement made to him by Danjuma when the Northerners struck back in July. These are the facts; let everyone reach their own conclusions.


There is nothing on papers that says coup d’etat should mirror the federal character of Nigeria. Anybody that clings to the fact that the January 15, 1966 coup was Igbo because the plotters were predominately Igbo extractions is just being condescendingly disingenuous. What about the July 29, 1966 coup? Did the July 29, 1966 coup also mirror the federal character of Nigeria?

The lamentation about the coup being Igbo is just a ploy to derogate the action of group of people that stood up against the aggressor. It is also serves as shield in which to hide the despicable cowardice displayed in front of the aggressors.

Soldiers such as Lt. John Atom Kpera and Captain JS Jallo were implicated in the January 15, 1966 coup. However, the combined investigative panel of military and police consisted of Gowon, Usman and Yusuf made sure that coup plotters are mainly Igbo in particular and southern Nigeria in general.

The politicians and military officers you listed in red were legitimate targets for the January 15, 1966 coup plotters.

Please if I may add, Maj. Adegoke was killed during the July 29, 1966 coup. Col. Shodeinde was not only the commandant of NMTC, Kaduna but second-in-command in 1st Brigade, Kaduna.

Col. Robert Adebayo would have been marked for elimination if he was not on course in London because the Col. was the Army Chief of Staff.
Re: Open Letter To Seun And Politics Section Moderator(s) by Onlytruth(m): 9:52pm On Dec 30, 2009
ndu_chucks:


Please lookup the meaning of the word almajiri, I don't believe you know what it means. dummy. cheesy

It is synonymous with terror: mass killer, begger, illiterate, dirty, rapist, retrograde and everything else in between.
Our history amply makes that clear.
Re: Open Letter To Seun And Politics Section Moderator(s) by Katsumoto: 10:08pm On Dec 30, 2009
Dede1:

There is nothing on papers that says coup d’etat should mirror the federal character of Nigeria. Anybody that clings to the fact that the January 15, 1966 coup was Igbo because the plotters were predominately Igbo extractions is just being condescendingly disingenuous. What about the July 29, 1966 coup? Did the July 29, 1966 coup also mirror the federal character of Nigeria?

The lamentation about the coup being Igbo is just a ploy to derogate the action of group of people that stood up against the aggressor. It is also serves as shield in which to hide the despicable cowardice displayed in front of the aggressors.

Soldiers such as Lt. John Atom Kpera and Captain JS Jallo were implicated in the January 15, 1966 coup. However, the combined investigative panel of military and police consisted of Gowon, Usman and Yusuf made sure that coup plotters are mainly Igbo in particular and southern Nigeria in general.

The politicians and military officers you listed in red were legitimate targets for the January 15, 1966 coup plotters.

Please if I may add, Maj. Adegoke was killed during the July 29, 1966 coup. Col. Shodeinde was not only the commandant of NMTC, Kaduna but second-in-command in 1st Brigade, Kaduna.

Col. Robert Adebayo would have been marked for elimination if he was not on course in London because the Col. was the Army Chief of Staff. 

The July coup could not have mirrored federal character because it was clearly a revenge coup. Adegoke was killed in Jan 66 by a northern soldier who assumed that he was one of the coupists. Please see chapter 7 Oil, Politics and Violence: Nigeria's Military Coup Culture (1966-1976).

If you argue that the officers killed were eliminated for strategic reasons, why not Ironsi, Njoku, Imo who were in Lagos, Kurubo was equally in Kaduna, and Ojukwu who was in Kano. I already alluded to the possibility that Adebayo was not killed because he was not in the country. Dede, please explain to me the STRATEGIC reason why Ironsi was not killed?

Last question, was it really necessary to kill all those people?

(1) (2) (3) ... (8) (9) (10) (11) (12)

Boko Haram: Jonathan Employs Israeli Security For Aso Rock / 3 Killed, 5 Burnt In Ibadan Tanker Fire / Abuja Shoprite Closed Over Bomb Threat?

(Go Up)

Sections: politics (1) business autos (1) jobs (1) career education (1) romance computers phones travel sports fashion health
religion celebs tv-movies music-radio literature webmasters programming techmarket

Links: (1) (2) (3) (4) (5) (6) (7) (8) (9) (10)

Nairaland - Copyright © 2005 - 2021 Oluwaseun Osewa. All rights reserved. See How To Advertise. 445
Disclaimer: Every Nairaland member is solely responsible for anything that he/she posts or uploads on Nairaland.