I've also wondelered how are murdered and someone who stole a pen would be in the same sell. Juts like in Nigeria where big thieves migrate to the rulling party and become saints while a hungry thief goes to jail without even informing his family embersbhis where about.
God is too good to do that to his creation. But then I still remember Noah's flood.
Again, a person doing good because he's waiting for reward or avoiding punishment is not doing it because he loves humanity or God. Yes simply doing it under compulsion and fear of punishment. That's why people commit all the atrocities in their youth and turn wicked born again in their old age.

Teempakguy:


1. The point of punishment is to reform behavior. Any other kind of punishment is unfair because it benefits no one, both the punisher and the punished.

You made that definition up, didn't you? You obviously don't know what punishment means.

2. The punishment is only meted out to those who die while committing them, making it possible to escape punishment after years of committing the crime, and you could get this punishment by committing the crime once! this is unfair.

The atonement for sins is always there waiting for any sinner to accept. It lasts until one's dying breath. God is merciful. What do you understand by mercy?

3. the person who is punishing people has been documented committing/abetting these crimes, this is unfair.

God is a just judge. He serves judgment to unrepentant sinners.

4. it is possible to commit these crimes without knowing the punishment and in fact, at sweeping majority of the people to be punished never knew anything. this is unfair.

We say ignorant of the law is not an excuse. You have your rules and commandments to guide you. (1 Corinthians 10:12) Therefore, whoever thinks he is standing securely should watch out so he doesn't fall. (Matthew 26:41) "Watch and pray so that you will not fall into temptation. The spirit is willing, but the flesh is weak."

5. the existence of this punishment has done nothing to reduce the crime being committed. this is unfair.

It has tremendously reduced crime. You only need to read up the carnage that happened previous centuries.

in fact, it is a waste of time, especially when it lasts forever in which case it's a colossal waste of time.

Sin separates us from God and hell is living separate from God. If you choose freely to live your life separate from God, God will grant your freedom of choice. End of story.

Hell is sadistic and vile that christians are now running aways from it. Many of them now try to give it a meaning of their own so that they can sleep comfortably at night. From saying it is a separation btw man and their God to saying is isn't really an eternal place of torture but a temporary place of torture to all what their minds can come up with .

Anybody that believes that hell is an eternal place of torture as the traditional believe puts it is a terrorist.

It baffles me when people who does not even know who God is, starts questioning the sovereignty of God. Believe it or not, God is Kabiosi- the unquestionable God. Some people here are simply empty barrels, proud and ignorant of the ways of God.
The God that I know is just and simple. There is a reward for everything you do here on earth. Life here on earth is not your end, but a passage. Just the same way, a baby life does not end in her mother womb. I repeat be careful, there is a reward for everyone.
No man would get to heaven by chance, neither would anyone found himself in hell by surprise if he or she has not been living in willful sin. You tell lies willfully, defraud, sleep with other people wives, scam people, talk rubbish just to pull down others all in the name of achieving your ambitions.
You are leaving a borrowed life, change your ways today, embrace true love for your fellow human being. Some people can destroy others in other to achieve their aim in life. Why ?
Eternity in hell is a just punishment for people who failed to make it to heaven. You can repent now, it is never too late.

thesicilian:
If you are already aware of the punishment for a crime before you still go ahead to commit it, on what basis then would you argue that the punishment is unfair?

The basis that I don't agree should suffice. If I was actually created by yahweh, then he didn't seek my permission to be created but he went ahead anyway only to subject me to unreasonable laws. Does that make sense to you?

twosquare:
Hell is not forever, neither is it for eternity. (Rev 20:14)

Another angle, please elaborate!

OneManLegion:


The basis that I don't agree should suffice. If I was actually created by yahweh, then he didn't seek my permission to be created but he went ahead anyway only to subject me to unreasonable laws. Does that make sense to you?

Did you say unreasonable laws? Can you pls mention some? Does a manufacturer seek the permission of a product before making such? God should seek your permission.

Please friend, have a change of mind. Is loving your brothers and sisters as yourself an unreasonable law? Everything about the bible is about love for God and your fellow human being.

People will go to hell,not because of the sin committed per say, but because God sent Jesus as a propitiation for mankind, but men chose their own way(religion). The original sin was dealt with by Jesus' cross.
So,be all the humanist you want,without Jesus,your efforts account for nothing.Jesus is The Big Deal.

milkymesh:
When a person commits a crime, the punishment is based upon both the severity of the crime and the person whom the crime is against.


I know that because God is just, people will suffer according to there deeds, and some will suffer longer than others. But how can you say that a just God would allow me who who stole a goat suffer the same fate as Boko Haram's Shakau who is responsible for thousands deaths?
Why should I suffer eternally for a sin I probably committed for a few weeks or years?
And how can a just God cause men to suffer torture FOREVER?
Will HE in His mercies shut his heart against those who in agony have been crying for thousands of years in hellfire asking for mercy and forgiveness??

The picture of God painted thought the doctrine of hellfire seems to contradict the merciful and loving God taught in the bible.

WHAT IS YOUR OPINION?

it surprised you?? I surprised too o, well if the fallen cherub lucifer and his cohorts demons and devils, especially the fallen angels that slept with women are reserved in chains and torments for thousands of years before now and yet still unloosed, well I really don't know what to say.. Because everything about the afterlife is eternal. We should just pray to enter life and do the right things so that we can have life eternal when we get to the afterlife, thanks.

milkymesh:
When a person commits a crime, the punishment is based upon both the severity of the crime and the person whom the crime is against.


I know that because God is just, people will suffer according to there deeds, and some will suffer longer than others. But how can you say that a just God would allow me who who stole a goat suffer the same fate as Boko Haram's Shakau who is responsible for thousands deaths?
Why should I suffer eternally for a sin I probably committed for a few weeks or years?
And how can a just God cause men to suffer torture FOREVER?
Will HE in His mercies shut his heart against those who in agony have been crying for thousands of years in hellfire asking for mercy and forgiveness??

The picture of God painted thought the doctrine of hellfire seems to contradict the merciful and loving God taught in the bible.

WHAT IS YOUR OPINION?

Hellfire is the creation of the religion of ur oppressors.

hopefulLandlord:
Hell always sounded like a cynical marketing ploy designed to make people afraid to leave or displease the particular sect. And it seemed to really kill empathy - 'god says they burn, they burn' doesn't make me think of someone being full of love and compassion and all that.

Eternal punishment for finite transgressions always seemed abusive to me. How can someone look at the idea of a being who would condemn people to that and call it love?

Even when I was a Christian Hell was just too weird for me to accept. Infinite punishment for finite offenses is an eye for an eye on steroids. Punishing people for disobeying nit-picky rules makes God an abusive parent. One reason often given for punishment is to teach the offender not to offend again, but if punishment is eternal then how can the offender benefit from this teaching? Jesus is supposed to be into forgiveness but forgiveness shouldn't involve eternal suffering. Hell isn’t redemptive, it isn’t leading to repentance, it’s simply pain for pain’s sake.

I love this quote: “Heaven and hell seem out of proportion to me: the actions of men do not deserve so much.”

and of course I get the rationalisation of hell by Christians saying its moral accountability and saying bad people go to hell;
that's nonsense and they know it!!!

If Yahweh is real and omniscient, that means he already decided that we're going to hell before he even created us. But if this omniscient deity allows for deathbed conversions, then it doesn't matter what kind of life you lead. You could be a brutal dictator who massacred tens of millions of people, yet still get into heaven if you tell Jesus you're sorry. Your victims could all go to hell for eternity if they never repented. That's how bleeped up Christian morality is.

Maybe Christians can answer a few questions for me. The Bible says that there is ONLY ONE way to get into Heaven: by accepting salvation through Jesus.

So it follows that the Christians who ran the Nazi death camps can get into heaven. But their 6 million Jewish victims must burn for all eternity in the pits of Hell. I've talked to many Christians about this and they just pretty much accept it.

My questions are:

1. How f***ed up do you have to be to believe Nazis can go to Heaven but their 6 million Jewish victims must burn? That's just sick. But Christians believe it. What the f*** is wrong with you people?

2. Why would ANYONE willingly worship a god that would act like that? Is it just a fear thing (better known as cowardice)? And

3. Even if you get into Heaven what makes you think you'll be safe with a psycho god like that running the place? What's to stop your god getting a wild hair up his ass one day and sending Christians to a place so bad it makes Hell look like an ice cream parlor? He used to like the Jews too. Or so the story claims. What makes you think you're safe?

Hell is designed originally for satan & fallen angels and by extension anyone without God.

Hell is not 'you steal a biro and gbam you are in hell' (although, if you die stealing the biro, you are hell bound) else everybody would end up in hell; we are all full of sin and work out or salvation daily hence the Bible admonishes us to watch and pray always.

God cannot see sin hence no unrepentant sinner can enter heaven and eternity without heaven is hell. He even forsook Jesus while he was carrying the sins of the world.

Same argument can be used for heaven; what can finite man do to merit eternity in heaven?

1. Nazis will go to heaven if they repent; the Jews will go to hell if they did not forgive the Navis. Tough, but that's it.

Did God claim to stop liking the Jews?

am4truth:


Did you say unreasonable laws? Can you pls mention some? Does a manufacturer seek the permission of a product before making such? God should seek your permission.

This, right here, is one of the biggest issues I have with religions: confusion. Do we have freewill or not? If we do, then don't punish us for our choice; if not, don't make us engage in this charade then.

Please friend, have a change of mind. Is loving your brothers and sisters as yourself an unreasonable law? Everything about the bible is about love for God and your fellow human being.

I wish loving others were the only rules. Your religion depicts a genocidal, partial, petty god and tells me to worship it? Why is he so thirst for our worship? Is he suffering from low self esteem? Check your bible, on countless occasions did he order genocide by asking the Israelites to completely annihilate other nations because they serve other gods (remember the moabites, jebusites, amorites, amalekites etc?) and allowed the needless torment of a good man as well as the murder of his children in order to prove his loyalty to his arch-enemy (remember Job?).

It's been quite a long time since I've seen nonsense like this. Let's pick this apart, shall we?

9inches:

You made that definition up, didn't you? You obviously don't know what punishment means.

I never defined punishment in the post you quoted. I only stated the objective of punishment. I clearly stated "the point of punishment . . ." how could you miss this?

The atonement for sins is always there waiting for any sinner to accept. It lasts until one's dying breath. God is merciful. What do you understand by mercy?

The emboldened is literally a paraphrase of what you quoted, all you did was repeat gist of what I typed. and yes, that's why it's unfair, it almost a lottery ticket of who gets to die saved by the right God, it's so messed up that someone like shekau could make heaven by simply converting and this argument could get you to hell.


the rest of the post is just brainwash jabber. however, it's interesting that you should ask me what mercy is, I'll tell you what mercy is not, burning 90% of your own creation for eternity, due to finite crimes.

God is a just judge. He serves judgment to unrepentant sinners.

you have been brainwashed. Kim jong un must also be a just president, he serves judgement to unrepentant North Koreans. what boring logic.

We say ignorant of the law is not an excuse. You have your rules and commandments to guide you. (1 Corinthians 10:12) Therefore, whoever thinks he is standing securely should watch out so he doesn't fall. (Matthew 26:41) "Watch and pray so that you will not fall into temptation. The spirit is willing, but the flesh is weak."

I wasn't talking about me. I was talking about the millions of people who have died without knowing anything about Christianity. these people are called unbelievers, and if Christianity right, they're definitely in hell right now, wondering what the hell went wrong.

It has tremendously reduced crime. You only need to read up the carnage that happened previous centuries.

You are not only brainwashed, but ignorant. Crime and carnage has almost zero correlation with religion, in fact, religion has caused several wars and crimes against humanity, before and after, all through human history. peace is gained by civilization, which is a product of science, not religion.

Sin separates us from God and hell is living separate from God. If you choose freely to live your life separate from God, God will grant your freedom of choice. End of story.

Now you're a liar as well, hell is clearly described as fire, a place of torment and suffering, Separation from God already happened in the garden of eden and hell is the punishment for not running back to stroke his ego. a stupid, pointless and psychotic punishment.

Teempakguy:
It's been quite a long time since I've seen nonsense like this. Let's pick this apart, shall we?I never defined punishment in the post you quoted. I only stated the objective of punishment. I clearly stated "the point of punishment . . ." how could you miss this?

The point of punishment is not what you stated it to be. Period. You were making a subjective assertion which is objectively incorrect.

The emboldened is literally a paraphrase of what you quoted, all you did was repeat gist of what I typed. and yes, that's why it's unfair, it almost a lottery ticket of who gets to die saved by the right God, it's so messed up that someone like shekau could make heaven by simply converting and this argument could get you to hell.

Yes, Shekau and even Hitler, if repented and obtained forgiveness and salvation which God offers for all, would stand a chance of making heaven. ALL their sins would be forgiven. Do you even know the meaning of forgiveness?

the rest of the post is just brainwash jabber. however, it's interesting that you should ask me what mercy is, I'll tell you what mercy is not, burning 90% of your own creation for eternity, due to finite crimes.

God does not predetermine anybody to go to hell. He gave man the gift of life and free will to choose what he wants to do. Which means hell is God's complement to the reality of human freedom and the dignity of human choice. If you choose to live your life separate from God, he's not going to drag you to heaven against your will. He will grant your wish and you will live separate from him (that would be hell). It has everything to do with freewill. There's no clear idea of heaven and hell in the bible (it is also described as a place of darkness), just so you know.

CS Lewis in his book 'the great divorce', writes about people in heaven going to hell and bringing people out of hell to heaven. As soon as those people get near heaven, they were like 'oh wait a minute... living in the presence of God? No thank you. We don't want it'

Lewis goes on to say that to be forever cut off from God’s presence, eternally unable to know God’s love and mercy, would be a torture best described by being burned ceaselessly by fire. To be totally separated from other creatures, to be wholly and increasingly self-absorbed, makes that self smaller and smaller, and ultimately will result in the person ceasing to be a self. To someone who has been wholly centered on self, having that self cease to exist would be the ultimate possible loss, a horror describable for us, only through images of physical destruction. The torture of separation and the terror of ceasing to exist are better seen not as punishments imposed by God, but as the natural and inevitable outcome of choices humans themselves make and attitudes they themselves develop.

you have been brainwashed. Kim jong un must also be a just president, he serves judgement to unrepentant North Koreans. what boring logic.

Your analogy is flat-out weak. Kim Jung Un neither created justice nor right and wrong. God has shown throughout ages that although he is Supreme, he is a God of justice and also of mercy.

I wasn't talking about me. I was talking about the millions of people who have died without knowing anything about Christianity. these people are called unbelievers, and if Christianity right, they're definitely in hell right now, wondering what the hell went wrong.

The Old Testament believers went to a place of comfort and rest called “paradise” when they died, and later went heaven after Christ died. The Old Testament taught life after death and that everyone who departed from this life went to a place of conscious existence. The general term for this place was Sheol, which could be translated “the grave” or “the realm of the dead.” The wicked were there (Psalm 9:17; 31:17; 49:14; Isaiah 5:14), and so were the righteous (Genesis 37:35; Job 14:13; Psalm 6:5; 16:10; 88:3; Isaiah 38:10).

The New Testament equivalent of Sheol is Hades. Luke 16:19–31 shows that, prior to Christ’s resurrection, Hades was divided into two realms: a place of comfort where Lazarus was (Abraham’s bosom or Abraham’s side) and a place of torment where the rich man was (hell). Lazarus’s place of comfort is elsewhere called “paradise” (Luke 23:43). The place of torment is called “Gehenna” in the Greek in Mark 9:45. Between paradise and hell (the two districts of Hades) there was “a great chasm” (Luke 16:26). The fact that no one could cross this chasm indicates that, after death, one’s fate is sealed.

You are not only brainwashed, but ignorant. Crime and carnage has almost zero correlation with religion, in fact, religion has caused several wars and crimes against humanity, before and after, all through human history. peace is gained by civilization, which is a product of science, not religion.

We were not talking religion, rather God's punishment that deter people from committing atrocities. Remove God in the world and your gene pool would've ended long time ago in Auschwitz gas chamber. Your brain tells you God is responsible for the proliferation of nuclear weapons? You're a joke.

Now you're a liar as well, hell is clearly described as fire, a place of torment and suffering, Separation from God already happened in the garden of eden and hell is the punishment for not running back to stroke his ego. a stupid, pointless and psychotic punishment.

You sound like a whiner. Simply put, God won't force salvation on you. You make your choice here on earth where you would like to spend your eternity.

OneManLegion:


The basis that I don't agree should suffice. If I was actually created by yahweh, then he didn't seek my permission to be created but he went ahead anyway only to subject me to unreasonable laws. Does that make sense to you?

It doesn't. How can a manufacturer seek the consent of his product before production?! Of course that cannot make sense. The only way that can be possible is for him to travel into the future, seek permission, then return to the present to begin production. Laughable.

thesicilian:

It doesn't. How can a manufacturer seek the consent of his product before production?! Of course that cannot make sense. The only way that can be possible is for him to travel into the future, seek permission, then return to the present to begin production. Laughable.

In law of contract, there's what's called "past consideration". To put it simply, "past consideration" is an invalid payment for goods/services. Its validity is repudiated by the fact that as at the time the payment (in cash or kind) was made, the person to whom it was made had no reason to believe it was in furtherance of a contractual agreement. A perfect example is where I "dash" you a nice shirt and then, 2 weeks later, take your shoes saying I already paid for the worth of the shoe by giving you the shirt. Its invalid because you didn't expect to be charged for it.

Can you relate it to your faith now? If God says because he created us and gave us a consciousness (and that this is a favour is a good thing is debatable) we have to do whatever he says however uncomfortable or morally repugnant we find it, doesn't that suggest holding us liable for a gratuitous "favour" he did for us at a time we neither knew or agreed to his terms?

If your argument is the supreme being needs not argue with his own creations before he commands them, then why so much noise about free-will? If we have free-will then we shouldn't be punished for whichever choice we make and if we don't, they should stop all these confusing talk about a loving god who gives us free-will but will roast us forever if our exercise thereof doesn't sit well with him. That's like idi-amin who guaranteed freedom before speech but not after.

Wake up and start asking yourself the tough questions, bross.

OneManLegion:


In law of contract, there's what's called "past consideration". To put it simply, "past consideration" is an invalid payment for goods/services. Its validity is repudiated by the fact that as at the time the payment (in cash or kind) was made, the person to whom it was made had no reason to believe it was in furtherance of a contractual agreement. A perfect example is where I "dash" you a nice shirt and then, 2 weeks later, take your shoes saying I already paid for the worth of the shoe by giving you the shirt. Its invalid because you didn't expect to be charged for it.

Can you relate it to your faith now? If God says because he created us and gave us a consciousness (and that this is a favour is a good thing is debatable) we have to do whatever he says however uncomfortable or morally repugnant we find it, doesn't that suggest holding us liable for a gratuitous "favour" he did for us at a time we neither knew or agreed to his terms?

If your argument is the supreme being needs not argue with his own creations before he commands them, then why so much noise about free-will? If we have free-will then we shouldn't be punished for whichever choice we make and if we don't, they should stop all these confusing talk about a loving god who gives us free-will but will roast us forever if our exercise thereof doesn't sit well with him. That's like idi-amin who guaranteed freedom before speech but not after.

Wake up and start asking yourself the tough questions, bross.

I knew you were going to finally land into the murky waters of freewill. While your argument is logically valid, it still shows certain deficiencies in terms of your grasp with the nature of freewill itself. Like the Idi Amin example you gave, no one can actually guarantee you freedom after speech, except you are a supreme ruler (even at that, stories abound in history of rulers who have been overthrown or rebelled against after certain utterances.
Freewill implies the capacity and right to choose, make decisions for your self. This ability to exercise your freewill is not to be confused with the outcome / consequences which are mainly dependent on the environment and circumstances in which it is expressed. Take for example, an ordered universe, with laws built-in to hold the entire system in place in perfect synchrony. If you as a man, who has been given carte blanche by the Creator to run the earth, decides to jump unaided from a mountain top, you may end up getting injured as you find yourself at the mercy of gravity.
Will you blame the Person who has given you the freewill, for not guiding your landing? Maybe a little.
Now along comes this same Creator and says, though I have made these laws, that the soul that sinneth shall die, that whoever breaks the hedge the serpenthurricl bite, and so on, there are now higher laws, higher dimensions, higher standards you can live by, if you are willing (again, giving you the opportunity to decide for yourself) to subscribe to this higher level. All you have to do is sign these new terms and conditions. If you sign here, you'll be protected from falling victim to the laws of the universe but if you don't, I cannot protect you from them. Is that unfair?
Is a citizen who has been displaced by a hurricane justified in suing a government that had done everything within its power to protect that same citizen from the flood?

thesicilian:

I knew you were going to finally land into the murky waters of freewill. While your argument is logically valid, it still shows certain deficiencies in terms of your grasp with the nature of freewill itself. Like the Idi Amin example you gave, no one can actually guarantee you freedom after speech, except you are a supreme ruler (even at that, stories abound in history of rulers who have been overthrown or rebelled against after certain utterances.
Freewill implies the capacity and right to choose, make decisions for your self. This ability to exercise your freewill is not to be confused with the outcome / consequences which are mainly dependent on the environment and circumstances in which it is expressed. Take for example, an ordered universe, with laws built-in to hold the entire system in place in perfect synchrony. If you as a man, who has been given carte blanche by the Creator to run the earth, decides to jump unaided from a mountain top, you may end up getting injured as you find yourself at the mercy of gravity.
Will you blame the Person who has given you the freewill, for not guiding your landing? Maybe a little.
Now along comes this same Creator and says, though I have made these laws, that the soul that sinneth shall die, that whoever breaks the hedge the serpenthurricl bite, and so on, there are now higher laws, higher dimensions, higher standards you can live by, if you are willing (again, giving you the opportunity to decide for yourself) to subscribe to this higher level. All you have to do is sign these new terms and conditions. If you sign here, you'll be protected from falling victim to the laws of the universe but if you don't, I cannot protect you from them. Is that unfair?
Is a citizen who has been displaced by a hurricane justified in suing a government that had done everything within its power to protect that same citizen from the flood?

Yes, if the hurricane was caused by the government in the first place. You have sallied your points quite lucidly and reasonably (quite surprising for a theist) however, you have failed so far to justify the orders of your God. I'm not even debating the moral rectitude of so many of his orders yet, I'm denying his right to make any laws for us at all. If I create androids which run on AI software, and I encode some rules which they may not break but they are fully capable of breaking, I can't say I have given them free-will when I intend to subject them to eternally subject them to infinite pain. That's like an adult saying to a kid, "If them born you well, go play ball". He won't actually tie the child down but if the child does play ball, he'd get a beating that would stay with him for days. That's not what free-will is. Free-will entails no curtailment of liberties before and after the exercise of choice.

He created humans (which he didn't have to), they stole the power of choice from him (It was stolen because, ironically, the free-will so touted by Christians now only arose because Adam and Eve disobeyed and ate from the tree of knowledge) and them subsequently gave them laws which they must obey on the pain of eternal torment.

You can't say the emergence and death of Yeshua was supposed to redeem people from the shackles of adhering to rigorous and unreasonable laws because Jesus himself he hadn't come to obviate the mosaic laws but to re-enforce them. Where fornication was only committed by having pre-marital sex according to the Mosaic law, with his arrival, fornication could be committed by lustfully staring at the opposite sex.

You get my drift now, don't you?

OneManLegion:

Yes, if the hurricane was caused by the government in the first place. You have sallied your points quite lucidly and reasonably (quite surprising for a theist) however, you have failed so far to justify the orders of your God. I'm not even debating the moral rectitude of so many of his orders yet, I'm denying his right to make any laws for us at all. If I create androids which run on AI software, and I encode some rules which they may not break but they are fully capable of breaking, I can't say I have given them free-will when I intend to subject them to eternally subject them to infinite pain. That's like an adult saying to a kid, "If them born you well, go play ball". He won't actually tie the child down but if the child does play ball, he'd get a beating that would stay with him for days. That's not what free-will is. Free-will entails no curtailment of liberties before and after the exercise of choice.

He created humans (which he didn't have to), they stole the power of choice from him (It was stolen because, ironically, the free-will so touted by Christians now only arose because Adam and Eve disobeyed and ate from the tree of knowledge) and them subsequently gave them laws which they must obey on the pain of eternal torment.

You can't say the emergence and death of Yeshua was supposed to redeem people from the shackles of adhering to rigorous and unreasonable laws because Jesus himself he hadn't come to obviate the mosaic laws but to re-enforce them. Where fornication was only committed by having pre-marital sex according to the Mosaic law, with his arrival, fornication could be committed by lustfully staring at the opposite sex.

You get my drift now, don't you?

The issue has never been that I don't get your drift, its just that I do not agree with it. Yes, Jesus' standards may seem high with stricter rules, but that is because only a church without blemish is the deal now.
Again you mentioned artificial intelligence, which is man's own way of 'playing God'. Yet this same man who complains about freewill, will never truly give his own A.I creation unlimited ability to make its own decisions. You saw what happened in I, Robot and Ex Machina where the A.I ended up destroying their own makers. Thus every A.I is guided by laws, now matter how free you make it. Otherwise you create a chaotic system. It is only an unwise creator that falls prey to his own creation. Read about the Tower of Babel again. What do you think would have happened if those men had been able to building their tower to heaven? You think their plan was to go there and worship Him?
Man was made in the image of God. When God creates, He sets guiding laws in place. When man creates he deles the same too.
On a last note, I do not think it is true for you to say freewill entails no curtailment of liberties before and after the exercise of choice. This is simply because the one who is giving you the choice may not be in control, for one reason or the other, of the outcome (the after) of that choice.

thesicilian:

The issue has never been that I don't get your drift, its just that I do not agree with it. Yes, Jesus' standards may seem high with stricter rules, but that is because only a church without blemish is the deal now.
Again you mentioned artificial intelligence, which is man's own way of 'playing God'. Yet this same man who complains about freewill, will never truly give his own A.I creation unlimited ability to make its own decisions. You saw what happened in I, Robot and Ex Machina where the A.I ended up destroying their own makers. Thus every A.I is guided by laws, now matter how free you make it. Otherwise you create a chaotic system. It is only an unwise creator that falls prey to his own creation. Read about the Tower of Babel again. What do you think would have happened if those men had been able to building their tower to heaven? You think their plan was to go there and worship Him?
Man was made in the image of God. When God creates, He sets guiding laws in place. When man creates he deles the same too.
On a last note, I do not think it is true for you to say freewill entails no curtailment of liberties before and after the exercise of choice. This is simply because the one who is giving you the choice may not be in control, for one reason or the other, of the outcome (the after) of that choice.

Lmao! I wasn't even going to really expose the legions of instances of manifest absurdity in your holy book but since you're mentioning them yourself, let's analyse the ones you've mentioned. You mentioned the possibility that perhaps those laws are there and that strict in order to forestall a 'coup' orchestrated by man. So, you're admitting that your omni-powerful, omni-scient God is afraid of the power of our collective will? Besides, how do barbaric rules (like commanding someone to kill idolaters, homosexuals, rebellious kids etc) prevent us from going against him? Humanity is currently trying her hardest to create ASI (Artificial Super Intelligence) who can have the kind of intelligence we'd normally only ascribe to God. There's no one curtailing the limits of their intelligence. However, for obvious safety reasons of having a self-conscious, super sentient entity on earth with us, humans have to put all safety measures in place so that we wouldn't end up masterminding the creation of something which poses an existential threat to us. Eternity in hell doesn't serve this purpose. It's just an inconceivably malevolent and sadistic form of punishment only a psychopathic psychotic can think of and actually execute.

The tower of Babel signified the height of scientific and practical ignorance that all religions, particularly christianity, are enmeshed in. As at the time the Bible was compiled, the humans who didn't know any better thought the earth was flat so they reasoned one could go on building a tower that could reach up to the heavens. Your all-knowing god who should have laughed off their cute ignorance off became threatened of people that thought they could build tower to heaven! Nawa o! Where is heaven? Is it in the stratosphere? Can any building break out of our orbit? What would they breathe? If God, who created everything, didn't know any better and had to make them start speaking different languages in order to make them desist from a quest that was void ab initio anyway, what does that say about your religion and god? Doesn't that bear a suspicious resemblance to human error?

Brother, please think logically and objectively about these. Abeg. You're too intelligent to be ruled by fear of eternal damnation in a mythical fire or the promise of some imaginary heaven. Do good because it is the right thing to do. Do good because you're a humanist. Do good because you want to, not because you want to make heaven or to escape hell.

And most importantly, reject toxic ignorance and intellectual regression.
Cheers, bro.

milkymesh:
When a person commits a crime, the punishment is based upon both the severity of the crime and the person whom the crime is against.


I know that because God is just, people will suffer according to there deeds, and some will suffer longer than others. But how can you say that a just God would allow me who who stole a goat suffer the same fate as Boko Haram's Shakau who is responsible for thousands deaths?
Why should I suffer eternally for a sin I probably committed for a few weeks or years?
And how can a just God cause men to suffer torture FOREVER?
Will HE in His mercies shut his heart against those who in agony have been crying for thousands of years in hellfire asking for mercy and forgiveness??

The picture of God painted thought the doctrine of hellfire seems to contradict the merciful and loving God taught in the bible.

WHAT IS YOUR OPINION?

My dear, there's a misunderstanding here. What sends you to Hellfire is not the sin (stealing a goat or killing another human) you commit but the nature of sin

Let me try to make something clear here.

God is a Spirit, he lives in the realm of the spirit. He created us in his(Spiritual) image, and, we in Adam had his nature(Spiritual).So, with that component, we were able to connect and fellowship with Him in Eden. But, with time, Adam decided to revolt and took independence from God. He sort to be God for himself (Atheism) and live according to his own terms and conditions. He didn't need God's help or fellowship. This broke the link (spirituality) which connected him to God. He died.

The death here wasn't the death of the flesh, but that of the spirit. It's called Spiritual Death, separation from God.

When this disconnection took place, our Man's [/b]spiritual nature died too. In search of that reconnection gave rise to [b]Religion which is now ravishing humanity. (God never gave any man religion sir).

Now, Man has been trying to reach God from Adam, but he had always failed, because God never made it that way. He comes to man, not Man going to Him. When you seek Him, you shall meet another spirit, a false spirit masquerading as an Angel of light. Satan.

For this reason(Reconnection with God), Jesus came. See? Jesus came. He always has to be the one to come.

Now, why did Jesus come? It's a question, that when answered, all your confusions will be cleared.

Jesus came to act as a bridge through which we can walk on to cross back to God, but if we don't believe that He is capable of reconnecting us back to God, then we will continue to live in the darkness that we have been all along. But, if you believe, as you go (walk through him) he gives you His own life, (becos you have lost yours in Adam). His life which you take at redemption, gives you back the nature you had lost.

It is this nature that grands you access into God's kingdom when you die.

If you die without this nature, you can't access God's kingdom even if you had lived your entire life not stealing, killing or committing any sin at all, it doesn't matter. What matters is that, you don't have the new nature which can only be gotten through Christ.

This is what sends you to hell sir, not your sins.

Pls note: in the spiritual realm, there's no neutrality. There's nothing like 'am neither here or there', you MUST belong somewhere.

hopefulLandlord:
Hell always sounded like a cynical marketing ploy designed to make people afraid to leave or displease the particular sect. And it seemed to really kill empathy - 'god says they burn, they burn' doesn't make me think of someone being full of love and compassion and all that.

Eternal punishment for finite transgressions always seemed abusive to me. How can someone look at the idea of a being who would condemn people to that and call it love?

Even when I was a Christian Hell was just too weird for me to accept. Infinite punishment for finite offenses is an eye for an eye on steroids. Punishing people for disobeying nit-picky rules makes God an abusive parent. One reason often given for punishment is to teach the offender not to offend again, but if punishment is eternal then how can the offender benefit from this teaching? Jesus is supposed to be into forgiveness but forgiveness shouldn't involve eternal suffering. Hell isn’t redemptive, it isn’t leading to repentance, it’s simply pain for pain’s sake.

I love this quote: “Heaven and hell seem out of proportion to me: the actions of men do not deserve so much.”

and of course I get the rationalisation of hell by Christians saying its moral accountability and saying bad people go to hell;
that's nonsense and they know it!!!

If Yahweh is real and omniscient, that means he already decided that we're going to hell before he even created us. But if this omniscient deity allows for deathbed conversions, then it doesn't matter what kind of life you lead. You could be a brutal dictator who massacred tens of millions of people, yet still get into heaven if you tell Jesus you're sorry. Your victims could all go to hell for eternity if they never repented. That's how bleeped up Christian morality is.

Maybe Christians can answer a few questions for me. The Bible says that there is ONLY ONE way to get into Heaven: by accepting salvation through Jesus.

So it follows that the Christians who ran the Nazi death camps can get into heaven. But their 6 million Jewish victims must burn for all eternity in the pits of Hell. I've talked to many Christians about this and they just pretty much accept it.

My questions are:

1. How f***ed up do you have to be to believe Nazis can go to Heaven but their 6 million Jewish victims must burn? That's just sick. But Christians believe it. What the f*** is wrong with you people?

2. Why would ANYONE willingly worship a god that would act like that? Is it just a fear thing (better known as cowardice)? And

3. Even if you get into Heaven what makes you think you'll be safe with a psycho god like that running the place? What's to stop your god getting a wild hair up his ass one day and sending Christians to a place so bad it makes Hell look like an ice cream parlor? He used to like the Jews too. Or so the story claims. What makes you think you're safe?

I will gladly take you on fully on this discussion if you'd admit that at least God exist.

Does God exists?

twosquare:
Hell is not forever, neither is it for eternity. (Rev 20:14)

Misquoting scriptures sir. Seek Knowledge. After the White Throne Judgement, whatever gets throne into the Hell which burns with fire and brime Stone, shall be forever and ever

twosquare:
Revelation judgment is Lake of Fire. The verse that you quoted talks about the Lake of fire... Mark talks about hell fire... That it can't be quenched means what it is... It can't be stopped doesn't mean it is for eternity. Revelation 20 shows the end of this prison called hell. Only God will stop it when He introduces His own punishment.

Semantics, that is what that is called in the Literally genre. Calling one thing with two different terms. Lake of fire burns eternally, Hellfire which burns eternally is also Lake of fire.

rottennaija:


Same question can be asked, is eternity with God and eternal bliss a fair reward for doing good? Even if for a short duration?

Why not then stop sinning? Do you think he it didn't pain him to give you his only son to die in your behalf? And yet, he has not brought judgements to the world yet and has given you the time to repent.

Sadly, many throughout their life time never care to take the provision. So, isn't it just that he punishes those who refuse to take up the provision?

Funniest part is, He isn't even the one punishing anyone. Hellfire was never meant to for man, it was for satan and demons. Any human who ends up there chose it.

GOD IS NOT PUNISHING ANY HUMAN WITH HELLFIRE.

tete7000:
Cc: milkymesh, hopefulLandlord

It is not fire that is real punishment for sin but eternal exclusion from God. God was in the fire with those three young men and they didn't burn. God is light and without him is darkness, the darkness of hell is therefore absence of God, absence of light. Is eternal exclusion from God a fair punishment? Yes for those who rejected God while they lived. You can't have possession of what you already denied existed by words or deeds.

God bless you sir.

Josephjnr:
Fair or not,he is unquestionable. Sometimes I imagine if being god is a political portfolio someone is voted in or out,Jehovah and Allah for no win any election again. They(if the exist) have failed us and we need new spiritual leaders (gods). Hahahaha.

God is not a Democrat.

uboma:




As an imperfect man, can you be truly free from sin?

In our thoughts, deeds and words, we do fall short of the grace either intentionally or otherwise.

no man born of woman can be truly free of sin in this wicked world

Do you what sin is?

Hiccups:

The issue of hell is more of doctrine than principle. Having said that there is no guarantee one would stay for eternity in hell, this is because God is both just and merciful the just God will have pay for your sins in hell but the merciful God will also tamper justice with mercy by ensuring you are out of hell after relatively paying for your sins.

@bolded got me. Let me say this, The mercy of God is for man while in the flesh, not when he has died and become a spirit. If God's mercy is for the Spirits, Satan would have obtained that Mercy.

The Justice of God is that God will keep his words.

Remember that God never created Hellfire for man, any man who goes there is doing that by choice.

Hellfire burns forever not for a million years an stops. In their realm of the spirit, there's no time.

Teempakguy:
of course not. but then throughout the history of Christianity, Yahweh has never really done anything that's fair or even sane. he does things that rank from downright stupid to outright disturbing, hell and it's counterpart is just one of those things.

it's the people who buy into his crap that I'm shocked by.

let me put this in another way, it's those who believe he's actually real and additionally grovel at him that I'm shocked by.

Hahahahaha. What won't i see? So Yahweh does things that are down right stupid and disturbing, yet He is not real?
Man, insanity comes in different shades.

Peacefullove:
There is no Hellfire . a dead man is not alive , only the living can experience torment .

lol. But allah promises everyone who rejects muhammed as his prophet hellfire, what are you saying here?

twosquare:
Maybe you should check my second post on the same line and thread before insulting,....

He didn't insult you. What is even termed insult in this NL sef