ChinenyeN:

Geographically, yeah, if you draw a line midway across Igbo area, but not as a cultural division. 'True South' would be Uratta-Ngwa-Echee-Ikwere axis. Cross River and North Central aren't part of the south, but you've got some elements of them grouped along with the south. Aro for example are Cross River, but you've got them grouped with the south. Another example is Isu groups (Imo state), who are culturally North Central, but it looks like you've grouped them with the south too.

Riverine Igbo are southern Igbo by way of kinship. The Aro are right near the Cross River, and they do have some parts of Cross River culture, but so does a large part of Northern Abia state. Aro is closer related to the other groups in the south than it is to the other real Cross River Igbo that can be found in Ebonyi and some parts of Abia. The North Western Igbo would be the Cross River Igbo. Who are you counting in as North Central, because that was a very rough description to give an example?

ChinenyeN:

No. I will not entertain this your bullshit, Andre. If you seriously want to talk like this, then go find bk.babe or any of the other characters you so love to engage, but do not bring this bullshit around me. I will not entertain it. Nationalist Igbo. When will you learn that not everything is a fight?

Now, as for the discussion, I still say take your 'shame' talk and your convenience label elsewhere; go present it to people who actually care, and leave the rest of us to our independent ethnic communities (or 'clans' as you prefer to call them). My people say a koruora okho ngwhere ya akuruo isi; end of story. Enough with your bullshit.

And you cast a stone at me with this below
Don't play dumb. You know why. Stop being silly. . . but for the sake of the discussion, here is the straightforward answer below.
Mind you, this is not the first time you have insulted me in this forum.

@ Obiagu1

so why cant the esan be classified as an ethinc group? they have distinct dialects even within esan. the esan spoken in uromi is different from the one spoken in ekpoma. so?

and i don’t know how the “igbo” and “yoruba” lauguage and identity came about but the “edo” came through a particular oba of benin who named the binis – edo coz of a bini indigene called edo who i think died in the process that brought the oba to the throne. so in honour of the indigene, the oba after he assumed the throne, decided to call the binis – edo. so that was how those two identities came about and survived till this day. and that was from the top off my head on edo/bini history so it may not be perfectly correct and i don’t really care coz im not here to do any scholarly work.

however, that is why when a bini man ask you, “oviedo kpataki uwe khin?” he is not asking you if you are from edo state or part of the “edo” language group, he is asking you are you bini? cos there is nothing like ovibini or ovibenin in bini/or edo language.  not that i know of anyways. 

so since bini/or benin as corrupted by the europeans coz the empire was called benin, then all these so-called dialects that made up the empire, from the ones that are heavily laced with bini/or edo langauge to the ones that are loosely laced, are all to be called binis coz that is what the "igbos" and "yorubas" are doing.

ChinenyeN:
. . . while the 'Igbo' have forever been independent ethnic communities (what nationalistic 'Igbo' so love to call 'clans').

It's not that simple.

Andre, the only person on this forum I have insulted is EzeUche. That statement of mine that you have there in bold is not even close to an insult. It's barely close to me being brash. So don't think for a second you can equate that with your 'castrated monkey' bit. In fact, if, by any chance, the bolded quote of mine is indeed an insult, then what you said to me is indeed beyond words. I've not cast any stone at you. You know that. So stop being dramatic and don't bring that 'monkey' bit nonsense around me.

Ezeagu, are you sure we're talking about the same people, when we say Riverine? In fact, I'll just show what it seems like to me.

In terms of cultural, these are the general divisions as I understand them.
*excuse me if I'm missing some names, I don't know every group*
The South
---- Uratta, Ngwa, Ikwere, Echee, Ndoki, Asa, Most of Mbaise and Umuahia groups
Riverine
---- Oru, Orsu, Ugwuta, Njaba, Abo/Ndoni, Ekpeye, Ogba
The West
---- Ika, Agbor, Asaba, Ogwashi, etc.
The North
---- Nri/Oka, Okigwe, Isu, Enugwu, Nsukka, Udi, etc.
The East [Cross River]
---- Ohafia, Aro, Abam, Bende, Abiriba, etc.
The Northeast
---- Izii, Ezaa, Ikwo, Ngbo etc.

*I stand to be corrected though, since I don't know every group, but until then, this approximation, in terms of culture makes sense to me

ezeagu:

It's not that simple.

Would you mind explaining how the 'clan' understanding is not that simple?

ChinenyeN:
Ezeagu, are you sure we're talking about the same people, when we say Riverine? In fact, I'll just show what it seems like to me.

In terms of cultural, these are the general divisions as I understand them.
*excuse me if I'm missing some names, I don't know every group*
The South
---- Uratta, Ngwa, Ikwere, Echee, Ndoki, Asa, Most of Mbaise and Umuahia groups
Riverine
---- Oru, Orsu, Ugwuta, Njaba, Abo/Ndoni, Ekpeye, Ogba
The West
---- Ika, Agbor, Asaba, Ogwashi, etc.
The North
---- Nri/Oka, Okigwe, Isu, Enugwu, Nsukka, Udi, etc.
The East [Cross River]
---- Ohafia, Aro, Abam, Bende, Abiriba, etc.
The Northeast
---- Izii, Ezaa, Ikwo, Ngbo etc.

*I stand to be corrected though, since I don't know every group, but until then, this approximation, in terms of culture makes sense to me

The Cross River Igbo in your list isn't really Cross River to me, such as Ohafia and Bende and except Abiriba, those groups are strongly linked to groups in what is your 'south' is, especially Umuahia and even Mbaise. The real Cross River would be around the north east area in towns like Afikpo, Abiriba, etc, all those towns, because they aren't just people who have adopted some Cross River culture but they are rooted into it. I agree with your breakdown on the Riverine Igbo.

ChinenyeN:
Would you mind explaining how the 'clan' understanding is not that simple?

It's not as simple as "independent ethnic communities" when there's so much interconnectedness in Igboland, and also, these 'ethnic communities' can be broken down into even more ethnic communities because most Igbo groups are made up of many different village groups.

ezeagu:

The Cross River Igbo in your list isn't really Cross River to me, such as Ohafia and Bende and except Abiriba, those groups are strongly linked to groups in what is your 'south' is, especially Umuahia and even Mbaise. The real Cross River would be around the north east area in towns like Afikpo, Abiriba, etc, all those towns, because they aren't just people who have adopted some Cross River culture but they are rooted into it. I agree with your breakdown on the Riverine Igbo.

Oh okay. I get what you're saying now. I guess those communities would be like 'fringe' communities; bridges between 'culture zones', though I wouldn't say that's a reason to make some zones so inclusive.

ezeagu:

It's not as simple as "independent ethnic communities" when there's so much interconnectedness in Igboland, and also, these 'ethnic communities' can be broken down into even more ethnic communities because most Igbo groups are made up of many different village groups.

You're right. Things like this are complex. In fact, the 'not so simple' understanding can just as well be applied externally as it is internally, but it still does not compromise the idea of an 'independent ethnic community', or make the idea of the 'clan' any less real. Maybe it's just me. I just take to the 'clan' as an independent ethnic community, as opposed to the over-inclusiveness of 'Igbo'.

@ ogbuefi1

Your posts are not showing. Write to the moderator or something.

exotik:

there is no esan that an esan man will speak that i as a bini man will not understand, but you don’t see binis claiming esans are binis or vice versa, and when i listen carefully i can even understand the so-called igbanke because these languages are heavily laced with bini, even the ika is laced with bini and i can pick some words and phrases. whereas a lot of the so-called “igbos” cannot even understand each other, but people like you will continue to say the binis are a “one city” people even though the binis can understand these other languages laced with bini and some of them can understand bini. so yeah, the binis only have benin city and we will continue to cherish and keep it from deluded “anioma igbos” and likeminded people like you. so igbuefi pass that message to “your people” who are still in benin and tell them to pack and stay the fvck out. please.

Interesting.

exotik:

@ Obiagu1

so why cant the esan be classified as an ethinc group? they have distinct dialects even within esan. the esan spoken in uromi is different from the one spoken in ekpoma. so?

and i don’t know how the “igbo” and “yoruba” lauguage and identity came about but the “edo” came through a particular oba of benin who named the binis – edo coz of a bini indigene called edo who i think died in the process that brought the oba to the throne. so in honour of the indigene, the oba after he assumed the throne, decided to call the binis – edo. so that was how those two identities came about and survived till this day. and that was from the top off my head on edo/bini history so it may not be perfectly correct and i don’t really care coz im not here to do any scholarly work.

however, that is why when a bini man ask you, “oviedo kpataki uwe ghin?” he is not asking you if you are from edo state or part of the “edo” language group, he is asking you are you bini? cos there is nothing like ovibini or ovibenin in bini/or edo language.  not that i know of anyways. 

so since bini/or benin as corrupted by the europeans coz the empire was called benin, then all these so-called dialects that made up the empire, from the ones that are heavily laced with bini/or edo langauge to the ones that are loosely laced, are all to be called binis coz that is what the "igbos" and "yorubas" are doing.

I still don't see why Esan should be an ethnic group. In Igbo, many clans can further be broken down if we really want to isolate languages. This to me are mere dialects.

From what I understand from the bolded, Edo should be under Bini if a word has to be used for the group; and you are right, the Igbo and Yoruba grouped every related language (mutually intelligible) and culture under them.

iguefi, it seems u are earger to post and repeat your diatribe that u didn't even read what said. i never said the benin occupation was for 3yrs, i said civil war last three yrs. and only argued that the biafrans did not pull off the "occupation" without taking lives and further intimidation of the binis. but why wont your eye-witnesses not say otherwise? that is why they are "your" eye-witnesses. but it is like nato is telling the world that they have not killed a single civilian in libya so far and that gaddafi is the only one killing civilians. and u think any sane person believes that? i won't be surprised if an idiot like u believes though.

but anyway u conveniently dodged how the so-called igbanke is a bini dialect. my dads mechanic was igbanke with a proper bini name and whenever he spoke the language we could understand him but no, to u igbanke is anioma and igbo. bini will give u the igbanke now, u still won't leave us alone. 

back then, when it was benin-delta making bendel state and we were all proud bendelites and the yorubas knew us as omo'bendel, people like u said it was benin that is drawing deltans back so u want your own state. u got it and thot the benins won't survive without u, yet there still more deltans in edo than edos in delta state. now it is anioma u want, and want igbanke to be part of it, u will get that now u still won't leave benin alone. wetin benin do una? na so una like us? and then i'm sure u will say oredo, uselu, ovia are all  part of ndi'igbo. na god go punish u.

it seems u like putting words together so go put all your thoughts together and so go write a book and publish it. maybe i will buy and read coz i really don't take u internet advocates seriously cos all u do is talk and won't do a damn thing in real-life.

@obiagu,
so break them down and let's see all the 300 languages/tribes in nigeria. at least bini has broken theirs down why can't igbos? bini could easily call all the languages/dialects/or whatever u want to call it  in edo state and environs bini but they haven't.

the "igbo" and "yoruba" language/identity are contemporary languages/identities anyways but u guys will never admit.

but good luck with claiming every tribe want to claim coz binis don't care coz we can identify ourselves and don't need anyone to do it for us.

Olaudah Equiano and other Igbo people exported to the new world wrote that they were Iboe or Eboe as early as the 18th century. Some Igbo people who began to see themselves as separate from others is a recent phenomenon (post Nigeria crisis).
I think that of Yoruba may be recent because during the Yoruba civil wars of the 19th century, they never recognised one another as Yoruba.

exotik:

@obiagu,
so break them down and let's see all the 300 languages/tribes in nigeria. at least bini has broken theirs down why can't igbos? bini could easily call all the languages/dialects/or whatever u want to call it  in edo state and environs bini but they haven't.

the "igbo" and "yoruba" language/identity are contemporary languages/identities anyways but u guys will never admit.

but good luck with claiming every tribe want to claim coz binis don't care coz we can identity ourselves and don't need anyone to do it for us.

Guy you are 4king up!Esan is in no way a Bini dialect.Infact Esan is bigger than Bini.Bini,Esan,Etsako,Urhobo and Isoko all speak different brands of language rooted in Edo and not Bini.Calling Esan a Bini dialect is like calling Ngwa an Abiriba dialect.You all are Edo.

The case of Igbo is quite difficult because there is nobody called Igbo.Igbo is just a coinage used in addressing various loose clans that spoke related languages.Yoruba is not much different from Igbo if not that Oyo somehow conquered all of them and influenced their structure.

One interesting postulation that you never knew is that an estimated one out of five Igbo or Yoruba has Edo roots but dislinked from Edo because of Benin past Obas highhandedness.

If anything "Yoruba" identity is stronger because of the shared belief in Oduduwa as forefather, or founder of the modern Yorubas. But it's safe to say that the neither the Igbos nor the Yorubas saw themselves as one, united, people before colonization.

abagoro:

Guy you are 4king up!Esan is in no way a Bini dialect.Infact Esan is bigger than Bini.Bini,Esan,Etsako,Urhobo and Isoko all speak different brands of language rooted in Edo and not Bini.Calling Esan a Bini dialect is like calling Ngwa an Abiriba dialect.You all are Edo.

The case of Igbo is quite difficult because there is nobody called Igbo.Igbo is just a coinage used in addressing various loose clans that spoke related languages.Yoruba is not much different from Igbo if not that Oyo somehow conquered all of them and influenced their structure.

One interesting postulation that you never knew is that an estimated one out of five Igbo or Yoruba has Edo roots but dislinked from Edo because of Benin past Obas highhandedness.

The bolded is not true. What roots are you talking about? Is it residing in or around Bini or influenced by Bini?
If you say 1 in 5, considering the population of Yoruba and Igbo, then we're talking about approximately 10 million here while Edo itself is a mere 3.5 million or less.

lakal:

If anything "Yoruba" identity is stronger because of the shared belief in Oduduwa as forefather, or founder of the modern Yorubas. But it's safe to say that the neither the Igbos nor the Yorubas saw themselves as one, united, people before colonization.

Some Yoruba clans don't believe in Oduduwa.

exotik:

@obiagu,
so break them down and let's see all the 300 languages/tribes in nigeria. at least bini has broken theirs down why can't igbos? bini could easily call all the languages/dialects/or whatever u want to call it  in edo state and environs bini but they haven't.

the "igbo" and "yoruba" language/identity are contemporary languages/identities anyways but u guys will never admit.

but good luck with claiming every tribe want to claim coz binis don't care coz we can identity ourselves and don't need anyone to do it for us.

Igbo identity/language contemporary? Guy, just say what you know. Yoruba identity could be contemporary but not Igbo. Igbo as a word and as a name of a people is as ancient as the people themselves.

The one in red is uncalled for because it's an insult. Who are we claiming? Claiming Bini or claiming Urhobo or claiming Ibibio as Igbo?

Hmm, interesting.

@exotik
Did you just say there is nothing like Yoruba Then how do we explain the Oyo empire + Dahomey empire that was conquered by the Yorubas? I am waiting!!!

@ Andre
You are playing the devil's advocate. Well, you know the truth. The word Ndigbo is a term used to coin a ethnic groups with a similar languages. To some extent, the Yoruba was the same since after the inter-civil war and the collapse of the empire, different kingdoms emerged and were independent.

Obiagu1:

Some Yoruba clans don't believe in Oduduwa.

Please proved an example with evidence!

Obiagu1:

Igbo identity/language contemporary? Guy, just say what you know. Yoruba identity could be contemporary but not Igbo. Igbo as a word and as a name of a people is as ancient as the people themselves.

The one in red is uncalled for because it's an insult. Who are we claiming? Claiming Bini or claiming Urhobo or claiming Ibibio as Igbo?

You have to admit, that was funny!!!

jason123:

You have to admit, that was funny!!!

Yeah, Yoruba is mainly associated with, I think, Oyo whereas Igbo in towns' names is scattered all over Igboland from North to South and from East to West.

Obiagu1:

Yeah, Yoruba is mainly associated with, I think, Oyo whereas Igbo in towns' names is scattered all over Igboland from North to South and from East to West.

If you said Oyo empire not just Oyo, then yes. Why because even the Anagos that are from Dahomey can more or less be classified as Yorubas since they were conquered.
Now about Igbo land. How do we know who is Igbo Why can't, let's say, Uhrobo be Igbo Ndigbo is a convenient name for loose clans or ethnic groups in the Eastern region. The "Igbo" identity became strong recently because of Nigeria. There was never an "Igbo" in history. The past "Ndigbo" history was with reference to individual clans not as a collective group. Same with the Yorubas after the "inter-civil war".

Obiagu1:

Yeah, Yoruba is mainly associated with, I think, Oyo whereas Igbo in towns' names is scattered all over Igboland from North to South and from East to West.

Very true -- there is Igbo-Ukwu, Akwukwu Igbo, Igbuzo, Amaigbo.


However, some Igbo (or Igbo-speaking) subgroups saw the word "Igbo" as an insult and didn't use it for themselves,

Obiagu1:

Some Yoruba clans don't believe in Oduduwa.

Not true, the Ijebus believe that they are indigenous, but their oral history also involves Oduduwa coming to the land.

In every Yoruba subgroup there is an Oduduwa connection.  In addition, the Oyo empire created a lot of cultural homogeneity, there is much less dialect variation, and there is wide acceptance of a standard language (Oyo Yoruba) as a result.

Obiagu, maybe it helps to think about it like this:

1:5 is a ratio equivalent to 20%. If you take the map of 'Igboland' and approximate Western and Riverine Igbo culture areas, you get about 20% of 'Igboland' (if not more). So approximately 1:5 'clans' has an acknowledged connection to Bini. Since people are members of their 'clan', you could easily then approximate that 1:5 Igbo have an acknowledged connection with Bini. It's not so difficult.

jason123:

If you said Oyo empire not just Oyo, then yes. Why because even the Anagos that are from Dahomey can more or less be classified as Yorubas since they were conquered.
Now about Igbo land. How do we know who is Igbo Why can't, let's say, Uhrobo be Igbo Ndigbo is a convenient name for loose clans or ethnic groups in the Eastern region. The "Igbo" identity became strong recently because of Nigeria. There was never an "Igbo" in history. The past "Ndigbo" history was with reference to individual clans not as a collective group. Same with the Yorubas after the "inter-civil war".

I meant Oyo, not the empire.

What do you mean by Ndigbo? It's Igbo and not Ndigbo. Ndigbo simply means Igbo people or what some people will write as Igbo[b]s[/b].

They were loose clans but the identity was the same all over. From the people the Europeans met in Bonny to the ones that identified themselves in the slave world eg Olaudah Equiano.
Just say what you know, never an Igbo in history Guy stop it now. Where did Igboukwu, Obigbo, or Igbouzor came from. Never Igbo in history my a.s.s.

Wrong Obiagu, the identity was nopt the same all over. The people of Bonny actually identified as 'Ngwa' to the Europeans and not 'Igbo', for example.

jason123:

If you said Oyo empire not just Oyo, then yes. Why because even the Anagos that are from Dahomey can more or less be classified as Yorubas since they were conquered.
Now about Igbo land. How do we know who is Igbo Why can't, let's say, Uhrobo be Igbo Ndigbo is a convenient name for loose clans or ethnic groups in the Eastern region. The "Igbo" identity became strong recently because of Nigeria. There was never an "Igbo" in history. The past "Ndigbo" history was with reference to individual clans not as a collective group. Same with the Yorubas after the "inter-civil war".

The Hausa City states of Kano, Zaria, Rano, Daura, Katsina, Kebbi etc fought against one another and never accepted one another as one prior to the establishment of the caliphate.
But in Today's Nigeria, Hardly do you see A Rano man disclaiming Hausa. So why does a group who were hitherto Igbo now tend to disclaim Igbo. Even since the Formation of the modern Yoruba nation, hardly do you see any of the groups opting out. It is only in Igbo that you you will find some morons who feel different.

ChinenyeN:

Obiagu, maybe it helps to think about it like this:

1:5 is a ratio equivalent to 20%. If you take the map of 'Igboland' and approximate Western and Riverine Igbo culture areas, you get about 20% of 'Igboland' (if not more). So approximately 1:5 'clans' has an acknowledged connection to Bini. Since people are members of their 'clan', you could easily then approximate that 1:5 Igbo have an acknowledged connection with Bini. It's not so difficult.

Acknowledged connection to Bini like one Eze Chima or one Akalaka left Bini?
I can tell you they were expanding Igbos driven away from Bini by Oba Awuarre; I'll not call him a tyrant because he was a great king.

ChinenyeN:

Wrong Obiagu, the identity was nopt the same all over. The people of Bonny actually identified as 'Ngwa' to the Europeans and not 'Igbo', for example.

But I didn't read the name Ngwa from the history of Bonny, rather all I saw was Eboe. Just leave this matter.

Obiagu1:

I meant Oyo, not the empire.

What do you mean by Ndigbo? It's Igbo and not Ndigbo. Ndigbo simply means Igbo people or what some people will write as Igbo[b]s[/b].

They were loose clans but the identity was the same all over. From the people the Europeans met in Bonny to the ones that identify themselves in slave world eg Olaudah Equiano.
Just say what you know, never an Igbo in history Guy stop it now. Where did Igboukwu, Obigbo, or Igbouzor came from. Never Igbo in history my a.s.s.

Well, here you go!

ChinenyeN:

Wrong Obiagu, the identity was nopt the same all over. The people of Bonny actually identified as 'Ngwa' to the Europeans and not 'Igbo', for example.