bodejohn:

@ harakiri
What a wonderful write up you had there.
But from my observations you must have once been a very good christian.
I do not have answers to your questions but there is a simple thought process i would like you to follow
Why do we all believe that there is a supreme being called GOD?
Simple answer is we have seen many things that we think is beyond the power of mortals.
[b]If we could reason out or explain or do all the things that we believe only a God can do, won't we all be called gods?[/b]
I am a christian because i believe that there is a God, whose ways no human being cannot phantom.
I am sorry if i didn't answer your question

hackney:

God works through people and i wonder why people doubt it.
afterall ,devil is working through people all over the place.

harakiri:


(3)In the same bible, the lord was angry with the world he created and was determined to destroy his creation (how ironic ).He instructed Noah to build an arc and put pairs of all living things in that ark.To the best of my knowledge, botanists spend their entire lives collecting and identifying species of a particular organism/animal/plant.Even if he lived 2,000 years on earth, there was no way he could have been able to achieve such a feat coz there were no airplanes,buses or ships to travel across the globe to get all pairs of organisms.Are we trying to say he came down to Africa to get the African elephant and then trekked back to India to get the Indian elephant? Think about it and you'll see how ridiculous it sounds.No roads.No buses.No planes.No ships.No rockets.No internet and yet. . .

nuclearboy:

@harakiri:

Create a new thread and post your questions there! If only for those who also don't understand the issues you've raised, I will answer them.

As you have requested, the answers will be direct and straight to the point. I will NOT give ONE excuse for an answer. But you too will not then start looking for excuses

Ultrame:

You confound us all with your very logical questions Mr. harakiri, i must admit , but logic alone cannot solve the mysteries of this world my friend, even you should know that.

I think i might have an answer to question 3, who knows, it might even convince you to give (back?) your life to Jesus Christ.  But then, i might also be gravely mistaken. here it goes:

Maybe around this time, the tectonic plates (some geology here) had not drifted apart and the continents as we know it was still one massive landmass (Laurasia i think it was called ) and Mr. Noah didn't have to travel at all because all the animals and plants are on that one massive landmass. and even so it must have been frustratingly difficult to get all of them into that one ark but he did it anyway. (i wonder how he did it). good enough?

harakiri:

(1)According to the history of the bible (from Adam till the present day), the world is not older than 5000 years and yet, there are archaeological findings dating back to millions and even billions of years back.There is no mention of ancient civilizations, dinosaurs or prehistoric plant life.All that was mentioned are what we see around us today.Could you explain this discrepancy?

harakiri:

Okay. . .

(1)According to the history of the bible (from Adam till the present day), the world is not older than 5000 years and yet, there are archaeological findings dating back to millions and even billions of years back.There is no mention of ancient civilizations, dinosaurs or prehistoric plant life.All that was mentioned are what we see around us today.Could you explain this discrepancy?

harakiri:

Okay. . .
(2)In the book of Genesis, Cain killed Abel out of jealousy.He was exiled from Eden and he went to the land of Nod and married there.Can you explain who those people were coz from my recollection, at that time it was just Adam,Eve and two kids.So who are these people that were "omitted" in the story and who is this mysterious woman Cain married? Was it his sister? Or did he get married to animals?

harakiri:

(3)In the same bible, the lord was angry with the world he created and was determined to destroy his creation (how ironic ).He instructed Noah to build an arc and put pairs of all living things in that ark.To the best of my knowledge, botanists spend their entire lives collecting and identifying species of a particular organism/animal/plant.Even if he lived 2,000 years on earth, there was no way he could have been able to achieve such a feat coz there were no airplanes,buses or ships to travel across the globe to get all pairs of organisms.Are we trying to say he came down to Africa to get the African elephant and then trekked back to India to get the Indian elephant? Think about it and you'll see how ridiculous it sounds.No roads.No buses.No planes.No ships.No rockets.No internet and yet. . .

harakiri:

(4)The current bible used in Christianity today has two parts. . .the old and new testament.Now there are practices in the old testament that most churches especially Pentecostals have discontinued e.g eye for an eye, sacrificial offerings and so on.When you ask them, they tell you that Christ came and all things are washed away rendering the old testament null and void.If this is true, why then do they still revert to Malachi 3:10 when it comes to psyching up the congregation to give more offerings and tithes? Weren't all things of old washed away? The same people will tell you that no part of the bible is irrelevant and the same people choose the parts that suit them.Are they confused about who and what they are worshiping?Do they even have an idea of what they are doing?

harakiri:

(5)The god in the bible is referred to as the all knowing god. . .the omni potent, omni present and all that. If he is all these, then he should have known that Eve would be tempted by the serpent and she would fall.He should have known how his creation would go till this present day.Why then did he create man when he knew that failure was imminent? The bible says he destroyed the world once and will do it again (some call it rapture, others call it Armageddon, a few think it's both ways). Why create something and condemn it? Is the bible implying that god is confused? That he makes errors? Isn't he supposed to be the all knowing god? Explain this please.

harakiri:

(6)The people who brought us Christianity also brought guns,liquor and slave trade (i don't know about you but that doesn't sound "holy-like" to me).They superimposed their religion on the black folks as a means of control.The same people who brought us their religion don't take it as serious as we do.I might be wrong but Nigeria to the best of my knowledge is the most prayerful/religious country in the world (there is hardly any street in Lagos without at least 2 churches or fellowships) and yet, with all the abundance of religion, we are the most cold hearted people to our fellow human beings! Christianity as we know it today originated from the Catholic church whose practices are chiefly unorthodox or in plain English. . .idol worship (how else can you explain worshiping a graven image of Mary, praying to saints,kissing the rings and feet of priests and the rosary. . .all of which aren't mentioned in the bible). Christians all claim to be worshiping one god. . .why then can't a Christ Embassy worshiper spend a few Sundays at Celestial Church of Christ? Why can't a C.A.C Pastor minister in Assemblies of God? Why can't Winners Chapel members worship in K&S? Or are there different gods? Are the so called Christians confused? Please explain these few questions satisfactorily and i'll hold my peace.

harakiri:

NB : Please, don't give me the usual "god works in mysterious ways" or " the ways of the lord cannot be understood" or " do not question the lord" crap.I've heard it one time too many.

Thanks.

harakiri:

(2)In the book of Genesis, Cain killed Abel out of jealousy.He was exiled from Eden and he went to the land of Nod and married there.Can you explain who those people were coz from my recollection, at that time it was just Adam,Eve and two kids.So who are these people that were "omitted" in the story and who is this mysterious woman Cain married? Was it his sister? Or did he get married to animals?

harakiri:

Hmmm. . .

Nice but that sounds a lil far fetched don't you think? Let me chip in one more thing about the Noah story. The bible tells people that after the great flood, the entire land mass was covered with water and the ark ascended beyond the highest mountain peaks. Now, no breathing organism can survive beyond 3000-5000 feet above sea level (my geography is a lil lapse here. . .lol).The highest mountain being mount Everest is over 25,000 feet above sea level.How did Noah and his cargo survive at this height without getting asphyxiated? Is this another typical "the lord works in mysterious ways" story?

nuclearboy:

Your first question was
Your presumption (and mistake) is that the YEC theory is the only one in Christianity. Young Earth creationism (YEC) is a form of creationism that asserts the Heavens, Earth, and all life were created by direct acts of God during a relatively short period, sometime between 5,700 and 10,000 years ago. Its adherents are those Christians and Jews who believe that God created the Earth in six 24-hour days, taking a literal interpretation of the Genesis creation narrative as a basis for their beliefs.

However, there are other theories. these include the Gap theory, the progressive theory etc. To desist from writing a verbose theses here, let me summarize as best I know how quickly:

There is a gap between Genesis 1:1 (when God created the heavens and the earth) and Genesis 1:3 (when creation of the elements began). Nobody knows how long this period lasted for - a day, month, ten thousand years, a million years etc. During that time, all your fossils etc existed and formed. Now, the gap I mentioned is the point where the Bible says

"In the beginning ,  the earth was formless and void."

This is taken by Gap creationists to imply that the earth already existed, but had passed into decay during an earlier age of existence, and was now being "shaped anew". Note that this view is relatively consistent with mainstream science with respect to the age of the Earth.

That solves the puzzle of your first question yet remains Biblical except for those who insist the only theory is the YEC one. Should I proceed to question 2?

harakiri:

(3)In the same bible, the lord was angry with the world he created and was determined to destroy his creation (how ironic ).He instructed Noah to build an arc and put pairs of all living things in that ark.To the best of my knowledge, botanists spend their entire lives collecting and identifying species of a particular organism/animal/plant.Even if he lived 2,000 years on earth, there was no way he could have been able to achieve such a feat coz there were no airplanes,buses or ships to travel across the globe to get all pairs of organisms.Are we trying to say he came down to Africa to get the African elephant and then trekked back to India to get the Indian elephant? Think about it and you'll see how ridiculous it sounds.No roads.No buses.No planes.No ships.No rockets.No internet and yet. . .

nuclearboy:

Your second question was:


Does your copy of the Bible tell you about any of the times that Moses went to the toilet? What we need to understand is that it is not every single occurence of days past (history) that the Bible mentions. My answer to you concerning your first question is summarized - why? Because it would be too verbose and I wouldn't want readers falling asleep. But STILL, my point is made in the summary. The Bible is a summary designed to show us a path. If it were complete, everything that ever happened to everyone (in the Bible) would be there. Cain and Abel were mentioned because they show us the first rift in mankind. Are you certain Adam and Eve had no other children? Or are you so young that you never had the chance to read about the Roman empire where kings married their sisters because they wanted to keep their blood lines "pure"? I propose a theory - So what if Cain later married a younger sister that came after Abel? Does the Bible say Adam and Eve had no other children or have you not seen incest practiced in the Bible?

Please think outside the box and see what is in front of you. Its clearer with a bit of thought and study of ancient cultures and mindsets. It also makes more sense than saying Baboons became you after 2 million years (why did only some become you and not all?) after becoming baboons from being snails who also became snails after 2 million years (why didn't all the snails become baboons - did they take a vote?) from being tse-tse flies etc etc etc

nuclearboy:

@harakiri:
Read your Genesis 1:2 again. It states there was a time when the Spirit of God was "moving". Please tell me how long was His Spirit moving upon the face of the waters?

Your third question was
ALL your questions are about thought processes. Your third question has been answered on this forum maybe 20 times - The question you need to ask is simply "what is the world" ?

Harakiri, imagine me and you are back in Noah's time - We live in Asia and ALL of mankind lives there with us. Then a flood covers Asia. Would we be wrong to tell our children that "the whole world" was flooded? I can see you telling Junior that "the tallest mountains in the (known) whole world were completely covered" and you would be right since that was the WHOLE (known) world. But now we are in 2010 and we know more. But they were right in their context and writing down. I believe God wants us to use our minds and the Bible is not a physics textbook but a guide. Using our minds completes the picture.

BTW, please do a bit of reading about the flood and you will find scientific theories point to the FACT that there was a flood but regional just as I have explained above.

tosag:

@Poster na wa for you o? You sure say you go live long so ?

nuclearboy:

Your post immediately above gives impression that your questions were meant to ridicule and not that you wanted answers. People sat down, saw what you saw, studied and came to understand. But here you are - trying to ridicule and screaming about fear. You seem the one afraid here - for who's talking Jihad with you? Or discussing innocent children being sacrificed? Or Crusaders?

This is a typical and very unfortunate response on NL! Apparently you're now angry people will read answers and say "oh ok, I see, but still etc" and you will have had your exit in their minds so you react thus. Sad.

On your 7 days issue, I suggest you wikipedia "YEC" or google "creationism". You might be suprised to find more people than you seem to expect have also voiced our concerns and studied the issue. What I wonder is if you truly wish to listen to anyone who attempts to show another point of view aside your own

Ultrame:

Very intresting, this thread.

OK Mr. Harakiri, you almost knocked me out! except for one little detail. Asphyxiation is death due to lack of Oxygen, Yes? OK, People get asphyxiated at that height because the neccessary components required for the creation of oxygen is absent. Now, Mr. Noah and his crew were'nt just cruising 25000 feet ASL, they were cruising on water (H2[b]O)which has sufficient oxygen in it.

It has been proven scientifically, that water can everporate at great altitudes and it's components, (Hydrogen and Oxygen) released back into the atmosphere.

The oxygen that was released from Mr. Noah's flood actually did save his life. that's how my friend, Mr. Noah and his crew did not die of lack of oxygen.

See?[/b]

marabout:

"Die Religion ,  ist das Opium des Volkes". Religion is the opium of the masses. That's the quotation by Karl Marx back in 1843.  All these things are not new.

Religion is  very complex. People become very passionate when you want a very simple discussion. That's why fundamentalists/fanatics are so successful using it.
In the Nigerian environment where every public figure from dictators/presidents to agbero legislators have failed us, people desperately need someone to trust. Life too is too uncertain with road accidents, kidnappers and armed robbers everywhere. People need fortification. When people go abroad, they will have been so programmed.

That's where pastors/prophet cime in to fill the yawning vacuum. Pastors/prophets don't have to fulfil any promise like providing free education, hospital, road, water etc. So they have the latitude to get their own "egunje" in the form of tithes indefinately. If they can "jazz themselves up" in India or Ijebu or whereever, even better. A Ghanian pastor was arrested in East Africa some years ago with a electrical device that he would strap to his arm and releases electric current when he touches people to heal and do miracles! Imagine touching somebody with a pacemaker or prone to severe heart dysrhythmia.

harakiri:

lol

Point taken. . .but you do know that the Noah story is quite bogus don't you?

nuclearboy:

As I said earlier, you have made up our mind. We're just going through motions here. All seems about laughter and feeling "cool" to you.

Anyway, and for Claritys sake, God created the heavens and the earth. Stop! His Spirit was moving upon the face of the waters. Stop. God started creating light etc. Stop

ok, how long did God take to create the heavens and the earth? then how long was His Spirit moving BEFORE HE STARTED CREATING LIGHT ETC? This is NOT aeronautics, is it?

bros1234:

Just one silly question for you harakiri

What if,  I mean if you wake one day and eventually all these stories of heaven and hell is real?

Sure, the Christians wont lose anything if its not real, will they? And if its real, you know the next line!

Guy wake up from your unfounded philosophy

I have an equally intelligent question for you. . .

What if you wake up tomorrow and find out that the real god is actually Sango or Obatala? What if you die and find out that reincarnation is real except the next time you come to this life, you would either be a canary or hibiscus flower? What if you died today and find out that Satan is actually the god you should be worshiping? Ehh?

bros1234:

Just one silly question for you harakiri

What if,  I mean if you wake one day and eventually all these stories of heaven and hell is real?

Sure, the Christians wont lose anything if its not real, will they? And if its real, you know the next line!

Guy wake up from your unfounded philosophy

nuclearboy:

You want proof? My reponse is simple - what are the alternatives? When there are supposedly 2 (or more) proposed answers to any issue, the only way we can resolve truth is by elimination. So please produce your list of alternatives and lets go through them.

BTW, we've veered off your original questions with this. Not that I'm complaining but still, just to let you remember.

Israel originally was ONE man called Jacob. This is where I think most of us miss it. God decided to be this man's God and that by extension, meant being God to his descendants (who look/are like him). It is the concept that separates Christianity from other religions - it is "me AND God" OR "harakiri AND God" never "all of us AND God". A personal walk whose instancing most of us never considered. That is why no two experiences are the same (when you find true believers) though they could to the outsider look similar.

I believe the choice of Israel was a two way thing. He CHOSE God and God chose him. Same as today in Christianity where you can be born into a supposedly christian family yet never "know" God. Whatever it was, it remains a type for us today. YOU matter. I matter. It is an INDIVIDUAL THING and just as Jacob (Israel) became a Nation that God had a relationship with, so do we become a Nation of Believers today (a Spiritual Israel).