Again I ask you, a person who looks at that accidental rock and concludes its by ''intelligent design'' solely because it looks like a design, will he be right??
[quote][/quote]

@ Tudor,

Chick. Just answer his question,

@harakiri, it seems that you believe that the bible is a myth, unscientific, false, etc for you have clearly questioned its authenticity. The problem with your stand is that as far as you are concerned, the Bible should not be allowed to prove from itself, that it is authentic. That stance, to me, is akin to not allowing an accused person to speak for himself or to have access to a lawyer. The fact remains that a lot of things, both archaeological findings, as well as world history corroborate a lot of what is said in the bible. if you would be as reasonable enough as to give the bible a fair hearing instead of just dismissing it, that would show that you are really interested in finding out whether it is authentic.


For me, the clincher in believing the authenticity of the bible is the accuracy with which the world powers and their sequence was prophesied. No other book in human history was able to do that and it is simply reasonable to believe that such a book could not have been written entirely by human prediction or thinking. If you want, i can breakdown the chapters of the bible that accurately talked about the world powers starting from Egypt to the current Anglo-American/United Nations world power.  

Faith in what the bible says is not a matter of credulity or sentiment or being born into a religion, etc.  "Faith follows the thing heard." By studying God's Word, its wisdom becomes apparent and faith grows.—Romans 10:17; Hebrews 11:1.

Biblical archaeology confirms much of the Bible's historical accuracy. True science harmonizes with the Bible. The following facts were in the Bible long before they were discovered by secular scholars: the order of stages through which the earth passed in its development, that the earth is round, that it hangs in space on nothing, and that birds migrate.—Genesis, chapter 1; Isaiah 40:22; Job 26:7; Jeremiah 8:7.

The inspiration of the Bible is shown by fulfilled prophecies. Daniel foretold in advance the rise and the fall of world powers, as well as the time Jesus would come and be put to death. (Daniel, chapters 2, 8; 9:24-27) Today, still other prophecies are being fulfilled, identifying these as "the last days." (2 Timothy 3:1-5; Matthew, chapter 24) Such foreknowledge is not within man's power.  If it is, then you would be able to tell exactly what will happen to you tommorow and in what sequence. All the people that have died in accidents would know that an accident that could claim their lives would occur and avoid the route.  (Isaiah 41:23) You are obviously the reading type, and if you are un-biased, you should read publications that speak for both sides not just articles like the God is not Great article on Wikipedia.  If you truly seek in depth analysis of the bibles authenticity, please consult this book:  The Bible—God's Word or Man's? it contains Historical and scientific information presented to prove that the Bible is accurate, trustworthy, and inspired by God for mankind's benefit. it has Full-color illustrations and is 192 pages long. Then as for your question:
What is the proof that the Christian god is the actual creator of the universe! i recommend another book:  Is There a Creator Who Cares About You?,  this book is another 192 page book, and it is written by scientists who believe in the creator and took pains to search out scientific proof of his existence. This book is specifically designed for people who seek scientific proof of the existence of a creator. Do me a favor and get these books and read them. then i would like to discuss with you your findings. These books are published by the Watchtower Bible and Tract Society. You can ask any Jehovah's witness for these publications. Disclaimer: I am not a Jehovah's witness. I just happened to find that they were the only religious group that were able to logically explain their beliefs as well as try hard to practice them. Even their kids are able to speak convincingly from the bible, and provide corroborating evidence from history, science, current events etc. However, i find their moral standards, a bit too strict for my taste.   Thus, i cannot become one of them. Aha, i remember you said you have chatted with Jehovah's witnesses before but you didnt say anything about the outcome. In case you didn't receive satisfactory answers from your discussions with them, i think you should understand that not every Jehovah's witness is highly educated and may not be able to discuss at the level you intend to discuss. others may just be irritated by your approach, from some your posts, you seem to talk like like the person who is convinced of his opinion and always of the same. I never got an answer that made sense from Jehovahs witnesses at first until i met a professor who is one of them who had the patience to discuss with me inspite of my arrogance/ I don't know how to put it, seemingly unshakable belief that God does not exist. He later explained to me that Jehovahs witnesses are trained to discern motive, if they feel you are just trying to get into an argument, the will simply leave and refuse to discuss with you. But if they discern a candid interest in understanding their perspective for the purpose of making a decision on a stand to take, they may decide to spend their time discussing with you. The professor himself, at a point got irritated with me, and just handed the aforementioned books to me and told me, that before we discuss any further, i had to read the books so that he would be sure of the sincerity of my interest and so that he would not have to spend too much time to  tell me every single detail as his time was at a premium. I grudgingly agreed, because i was sincere, and to prove to him i was sincere. And i don't regret reading those publications. The least you can do is read them, at least it will broaden your perspective. the books are not intended to force a change of opinion but to lay the facts out. Only a person can change his stand after meditation on things read.

luv to hear from you soon. Then, while you may not have outrightly insulted anyone, you agreed with comments that are kinda offensive. Like the one made by, i think tudor, in which he  proclaims his smartness. It, in my opinion is a veiled insult at worst or a terribly display of lack of humility at best. When people say such things, it can be annoying. Let us discuss in a way that is respectful.

essay1:

Again I ask you, a person who looks at that accidental rock and concludes its by ''intelligent design'' solely because it looks like a design, will he be right??

What question? You already have the answer. The person would be dead wrong. Are u blind that u cant even see the research images i posted above?

bros1234:

Let me say this here. From what harakiri wrote last its obvious he wants us to prove that the one to be recognised as the creator is the YAHWEH or God preached by the Jewish guys.I would like to ask if he in any way belive first there there is a supreme being behing the creation of the world. Only then would we be able to now narrow it
down as to where he is revealed from.I would supply further arguments when I know exacyly what he is asking

Or i might as well help him in drawing conclusions before posting by considering the theory of intelligent design.Otherwise  harakiri and tudor  shld  explain how tiny molecules in an organism could be a result of chance.

Consider the illustration of the concept of design with the example of Mount Rushmore, A research carried out several years ago, upon which are carved the clearly recognizable images of Presidents Washington, Jefferson, Lincoln and Theodore Roosevelt . By contrast, a naturally occurring rock in Hawaii casts a shadow that resembles President John F. Kennedy , illustrating an accidental occurrence in nature. It is self-evident that a sculptor (in this case, Gutzon Borglum) carved Mount Rushmore. The sheer number of details in which the Mount Rushmore faces resemble the faces of the four presidents testifies to the presence of an intelligent cause, a human sculptor. No one could seriously attribute these magnificent faces to the creative forces of wind, rain, sleet, and hail.


Image 1 -  An intelligent design: Mount Rushmore with presidents Washington, Jefferson, Roosevelt, and Lincoln.

Image 2 -  An accident of nature: President John F. Kennedy's profile formed by shadow cast by a large rock in Hawaii.

Please read through my posts again and try to grasp the essence of what i've been talking about.For the umpteenth time, i believe that there are supreme forces that brought mankind into existence as we know it BUT THAT FORCE IS NOT THE JEWISH god! ! ! . I never said Yahweh was the supreme god.The only time i mentioned the name was when i mentioned several other names he's known as in Christianity.

Please read well before you type!

Thanks.

anietieh:

@harakiri, it seems that you believe that the bible is a myth, unscientific, false, etc for you have clearly questioned its authenticity. The problem with your stand is that as far as you are concerned, the Bible should not be allowed to prove from itself, that it is authentic. That stance, to me, is akin to not allowing an accused person to speak for himself or to have access to a lawyer. The fact remains that a lot of things, both archaeological findings, as well as world history corroborate a lot of what is said in the bible. if you would be as reasonable enough as to give the bible a fair hearing instead of just dismissing it, that would show that you are really interested in finding out whether it is authentic.


For me, the clincher in believing the authenticity of the bible is the accuracy with which the world powers and their sequence was prophesied. No other book in human history was able to do that and it is simply reasonable to believe that such a book could not have been written entirely by human prediction or thinking. If you want, i can breakdown the chapters of the bible that accurately talked about the world powers starting from Egypt to the current Anglo-American/United Nations world power.  

Faith in what the bible says is not a matter of credulity or sentiment or being born into a religion, etc.  "Faith follows the thing heard." By studying God's Word, its wisdom becomes apparent and faith grows.—Romans 10:17; Hebrews 11:1.

Biblical archaeology confirms much of the Bible's historical accuracy. True science harmonizes with the Bible. The following facts were in the Bible long before they were discovered by secular scholars: the order of stages through which the earth passed in its development, that the earth is round, that it hangs in space on nothing, and that birds migrate.—Genesis, chapter 1; Isaiah 40:22; Job 26:7; Jeremiah 8:7.

The inspiration of the Bible is shown by fulfilled prophecies. Daniel foretold in advance the rise and the fall of world powers, as well as the time Jesus would come and be put to death. (Daniel, chapters 2, 8; 9:24-27) Today, still other prophecies are being fulfilled, identifying these as "the last days." (2 Timothy 3:1-5; Matthew, chapter 24) Such foreknowledge is not within man's power.  If it is, then you would be able to tell exactly what will happen to you tommorow and in what sequence. All the people that have died in accidents would know that an accident that could claim their lives would occur and avoid the route.  (Isaiah 41:23) You are obviously the reading type, and if you are un-biased, you should read publications that speak for both sides not just articles like the God is not Great article on Wikipedia.  If you truly seek in depth analysis of the bibles authenticity, please consult this book:  The Bible—God's Word or Man's? it contains Historical and scientific information presented to prove that the Bible is accurate, trustworthy, and inspired by God for mankind's benefit. it has Full-color illustrations and is 192 pages long. Then as for your question:
What is the proof that the Christian god is the actual creator of the universe! i recommend another book:  Is There a Creator Who Cares About You?,  this book is another 192 page book, and it is written by scientists who believe in the creator and took pains to search out scientific proof of his existence. This book is specifically designed for people who seek scientific proof of the existence of a creator. Do me a favor and get these books and read them. then i would like to discuss with you your findings. These books are published by the Watchtower Bible and Tract Society. You can ask any Jehovah's witness for these publications. Disclaimer: I am not a Jehovah's witness. I just happened to find that they were the only religious group that were able to logically explain their beliefs as well as try hard to practice them. Even their kids are able to speak convincingly from the bible, and provide corroborating evidence from history, science, current events etc. However, i find their moral standards, a bit too strict for my taste.   Thus, i cannot become one of them. Aha, i remember you said you have chatted with Jehovah's witnesses before but you didnt say anything about the outcome. In case you didn't receive satisfactory answers from your discussions with them, i think you should understand that not every Jehovah's witness is highly educated and may not be able to discuss at the level you intend to discuss. others may just be irritated by your approach, from some your posts, you seem to talk like like the person who is convinced of his opinion and always of the same. I never got an answer that made sense from Jehovahs witnesses at first until i met a professor who is one of them who had the patience to discuss with me inspite of my arrogance/ I don't know how to put it, seemingly unshakable belief that God does not exist. He later explained to me that Jehovahs witnesses are trained to discern motive, if they feel you are just trying to get into an argument, the will simply leave and refuse to discuss with you. But if they discern a candid interest in understanding their perspective for the purpose of making a decision on a stand to take, they may decide to spend their time discussing with you. The professor himself, at a point got irritated with me, and just handed the aforementioned books to me and told me, that before we discuss any further, i had to read the books so that he would be sure of the sincerity of my interest and so that he would not have to spend too much time to  tell me every single detail as his time was at a premium. I grudgingly agreed, because i was sincere, and to prove to him i was sincere. And i don't regret reading those publications. The least you can do is read them, at least it will broaden your perspective. the books are not intended to force a change of opinion but to lay the facts out. Only a person can change his stand after meditation on things read.

luv to hear from you soon. Then, while you may not have outrightly insulted anyone, you agreed with comments that are kinda offensive. Like the one made by, i think tudor, in which he  proclaims his smartness. It, in my opinion is a veiled insult at worst or a terribly display of lack of humility at best. When people say such things, it can be annoying. Let us discuss in a way that is respectful.

You know. . .i really dislike being misquoted.I never hindered the bible or Christians from "proving" itself or themselves.Matter of fact, the basis of my involvement on this thread is for so called Christians to prove that the god they worship is indeed the real creator of mankind.What is so hard to understand?All i need are straight and concrete answers but the only replies i keep getting are bible quotations and off key sentiments.

Let's take an example. . .

You have a biological father. . .yeah? Now, if someone walks up to him and asks for proof that you are indeed his son, your father needn't go into too much drama.All he'll show are two things :

(1)Striking resemblances
(2)DNA

No long talk.No beating about the bush.Straight to the point.Same thing applies here. You say you worship a god and you believe he's the creator of the universe and if you worship him well enough, he will grant you blessings here on earth and you might probably get a ticket into heaven (lovely ).Now, if you are so confident that he exists, you must have some concrete evidence to back it up.All i need are straight answers not quotations from a book that has been influenced on several intervals over the centuries by the ruling class and the catholic papacy. How can you be quoting scriptures when you weren't even there when it was written? All you know is that you were taught Christianity was the way to go from childhood and if you go against the bible, you will go to hell! Apart from that, what other proof?

yelanst:

MR HARAKIRI,U WANTED  EVIDENCE THAT ATTEST TO THE FACT THAT GOD EXIST AND THAT THE BIBLE IS REAL. THINK ABOUT THIS ANCIENT BOOK CALLED THE BIBLE WHICH HAS NEVER BEEN REVIEWED FOR MANY CENTURIES, BUT, STILL REMAINS CURRENT NOW AND, UNDOUBTLY, MANY YEARS TO COME.

How is the bible current?. . . .How does the bible agree with any laws of nature that we see around?  

MOST OF THE PHYSICS AND CHEM TEST BOOKS U READ ARE BEING REVIEWED ANNUALLY TO MAKE THEM CURRENT.
(1) THINK ABOUT GODS PROMISE TO ISREAL OF MAKING THEM GREAT AND UNDEFEATABLE IN ANY WAR THE FIGHT. IS THAT HAPENNING TODAY OR NOT?

Again how is the bible current? It seems you do not really know what you are talking about because Israel have been defeated SO MANY times in different wars. . .A little reading will help you. . . .

(2)SERVERAL THOUSANDS OF YEARS AGO, JESUS SAID THAT AT THE END TIMES, NATIONS SHALL RISE AGAINST NATIONS AND KINGDOMS AGAINST KINGDOM, FAMINES, TRIBULATIONS, EARTHQUAKES, ETC. I BELEIVE U DO  KEEP ABREAST WITH THE PRESENT DAY PHENOMENA.

My friend you do not know what you are talking about and Jesus was clearly LYING because famine, wars, natural disasters have been a part of man long because the writers of the bible wrote down what they said Jesus said. . . . In fact there is less war now a days than back in the days. . .Read the bible and see how violent the OT days were, more wars were fought before Jesus was born than now. . . .Now despite the fact that we have such things as nuclear weapons we are still FAR less violent than people that lived 4000 years ago, a simple visit to the middles east will tell you how violent they were, they were so violent that they build walls round their cities, the chance of a man dying in the hands of another man has greatly reduced now compared to during the time of Jesus. . . . .Natural disasters have ALWAYS being and will ALWAYS be a part of human and animal existence

(3)  READ ECCLESIASTES 9:11,  "THE RACE IS NOT FOR THE SWIFT, ". DID YOU EVER BELIEVE THAT FRANCE AND ITALY, THE TWO SEMI-FINALIST PLAYERS IN THE LAST EDITION OF THE WORLD CUP, WILL NOT MAKE IT TO THE SECOND ROUND  IN TIS EDITION OF THE WORLD CUP.

YES. . . .France won the 1998 world cup and were kicked out in the group stage of the  2002 world cup so there is nothing new there. . . .

(4) "THE SWORD SHALL NOT DEPART FROM YOUR HOUSE". TILL DATE HAS THE SWORD DEPARTED FROM THE HOUSE OF DAVID AS A RESULT OF THE KILLING OF URIAH.(DONT ASK ME FOR DETAILS, DO SOME RESEARCH.)

You don't know anything thing about research do you?. . . .

(5)"I WILL BLESS THOSE WHO BLESS YOU AND CURSE THOSE WHO CURSE YOU". GERMANY LOST THE 2ND WORLD WAR SIMPLY B/C THE PROSECUTED AND KILLED OVER SIX MILLION JEWS. AMERICA IS BLESSED TODAY SIMPLY B/C THE ALWAYS FIGHT FOR THE JEWISH COURSE. BESIDES, TODAY YOU WILL SEE WITH ME THAT THE JEWS ARE PROSPEROUS IN WHATEVER THE DO. MOST AMERICAN SCIENTISTS ARE JEWS. THESE DUDES ARE BLESSED B/C GOD BLESSED THEM THOUSANDS OF YEARS AGO AND IT IS STILL MANIFESTING IN THEM TILL DATE.

My friend you CLEARLY do not know what you are talking about. . . .True, Germany lost the second world war but they have bounced back and today Germany is amongst the 5 biggest economies in the world, Germany as a nation is batter than Israel both economically and in terms if military might, The killed 6 million Jews yet as a country they are better than Israel. . . .So what the heck are you talking about?. . . . If the Jews are blessed why then are they not the most developed country on earth? Why don't they have the best economy or military might?. . . . .Blessed indeed. . . .As it stands now Germany is more blessed than Israel, no?. . . .

There are some American scientist that are Jews but it is NOT most of them, How many percentage of the NAS(the most prestigious scientific body in the USA) are Jews. . . .My friend stop bandying lies all over the place. . . .

MY FRIEND, THINK ABOUT ALL THIS. FOR THE FACT THAT THIS SO CALLED HEBREW MYTH( ACCORDING TO SOME POSTERS) CALLED THE BIBLE SILL FINDS RELEVANCE AFTER THOUSANDS OF YEARS ATTEST TO THE FACT THE AUTHOR MUST BE A SUPERNATURAL BEING. THANK YOU.

How does the bible remain relevant? Tell me one developed nation that uses the principles of the bible to help it develop. . . .Even the Jews are secular state, no?. . . . .The bible remain relevant only to the underdeveloped and third world countries, no?. . . .

^^
Mazaje, I cant believe you took time to reply that post. . . I dont think the guy actually believes the ridiculosity he posted.

bros1234:

What question? You already have the answer. The person would be dead wrong. Are u blind that u cant even see the research images i posted above?

Pls stop being so vague. . . Could you please explain to me why the person would be dead wrong to conclude by just looking at its design that the hawaii rock was designed by an artist??

mazaje:

How is the bible current?. . . .How does the bible agree with any laws of nature that we see around?  


Again how is the bible current? It seems you do not really know what you are talking about because Israel have been defeated SO MANY times in different wars. . .A little reading will help you. . . .

My friend you do not know what you are talking about and Jesus was clearly LYING because famine, wars, natural disasters have been a part of man long because the writers of the bible wrote down what they said Jesus said. . . . In fact there is less war now a days than back in the days. . .Read the bible and see how violent the OT days were, more wars were fought before Jesus was born than now. . . .Now despite the fact that we have such things as nuclear weapons we are still FAR less violent than people that lived 4000 years ago, a simple visit to the middles east will tell you how violent they were, they were so violent that they build walls round their cities, the chance of a man dying in the hands of another man has greatly reduced now compared to during the time of Jesus. . . . .Natural disasters have ALWAYS being and will ALWAYS be a part of human and animal existence


YES. . . .France won the 1998 world cup and were kicked out in the group stage of the  2002 world cup so there is nothing new there. . . .

You don't know anything thing about research do you?. . . .

My friend you CLEARLY do not know what you are talking about. . . .True, Germany lost the second world war but they have bounced back and today Germany is amongst the 5 biggest economies in the world, Germany as a nation is batter than Israel both economically and in terms if military might, The killed 6 million Jews yet as a country they are better than Israel. . . .So what the heck are you talking about?. . . . If the Jews are blessed why then are they not the most developed country on earth? Why don't they have the best economy or military might?. . . . .Blessed indeed. . . .As it stands now Germany is more blessed than Israel, no?. . . .

There are some American scientist that are Jews but it is NOT most of them, How many percentage of the NAS(the most prestigious scientific body in the USA) are Jews. . . .My friend stop bandying lies all over the place. . . .

How does the bible remain relevant? Tell me one developed nation that uses the principles of the bible to help it develop. . . .Even the Jews are secular state, no?. . . . .The bible remain relevant only to the underdeveloped and third world countries, no?. . . .

Thank you for taking the time to reply his post.I know it wasn't easy.

Tudór:

^^
Mazaje, I cant believe you took time to reply that post. . . I dont think the guy actually believes the ridiculosity he posted.

Pls stop being so vague. . . Could you please explain to me why the person would be dead wrong to conclude by just looking at its design that the hawaii rock was designed by an artist??

I was wondering the same too myself.The ridiculousness of that post was beyond comprehension.I just gaped!

anietieh:

@harakiri, it seems that you believe that the bible is a myth, unscientific, false, etc for you have clearly questioned its authenticity.

Sure the bible is a myth, unscientific and false. . . .Tell me one scientific theory that was gotten from the bible. . . .What about other historical narratives in the bible that are FALSE like the exodus and the Noah' flood?. . . . .

The problem with your stand is that as far as you are concerned, the Bible should not be allowed to prove from itself, that it is authentic. That stance, to me, is akin to not allowing an accused person to speak for himself or to have access to a lawyer. The fact remains that a lot of things, both archaeological findings, as well as world history corroborate a lot of what is said in the bible. if you would be as reasonable enough as to give the bible a fair hearing instead of just dismissing it, that would show that you are really interested in finding out whether it is authentic.

Where are the archaeological findings that supports the exodus narrative?. . .If the bible is historically accurate why is it not used as a history book in academic circles?. . . .

For me, the clincher in believing the authenticity of the bible is the accuracy with which the world powers and their sequence was prophesied. No other book in human history was able to do that and it is simply reasonable to believe that such a book could not have been written entirely by human prediction or thinking. If you want, i can breakdown the chapters of the bible that accurately talked about the world powers starting from Egypt to the current Anglo-American/United Nations world power.  

What is this? Where or when does the bible predict anything about the world powers?. . .What new information about the present world power is found in the bible?. . . . .Where does the bible mention the United nations or the USA?. . . .

Faith in what the bible says is not a matter of credulity or sentiment or being born into a religion, etc.  "Faith follows the thing heard." By studying God's Word, its wisdom becomes apparent and faith grows.—Romans 10:17; Hebrews 11:1.

Your evidence to show that a God told people to write any part of the bible beside their baseless claim is WHAT?. . . . .

Biblical archaeology confirms much of the Bible's historical accuracy. True science harmonizes with the Bible. The following facts were in the Bible long before they were discovered by secular scholars: the order of stages through which the earth passed in its development, that the earth is round, that it hangs in space on nothing, and that birds migrate.—Genesis, chapter 1; Isaiah 40:22; Job 26:7; Jeremiah 8:7.

FALSE archaeology DOES NOT confirm much of the bibles historical accuracy rather archaeology has shown that some of the major stories in the bible like the exodus and most of the conquest are NON HISTORICAL. . . .There is no where in the bible where it states that the earth is round. . .The same bible talks about the sun revolving around the earth, the earth having four corners, and the earth being created before the sun and the stars. . . .Read a little about the ancient Greek philosophers and you will be HIGHLY amazed at their achievements when it comes to predicting the future and their knowledge of the cosmos despite not having special tools like we do today. . .

" The inspiration of the Bible is shown by fulfilled prophecies. Daniel foretold in advance the rise and the fall of world powers, as well as the time Jesus would come and be put to death. (Daniel, chapters 2, 8; 9:24-27) Today, still other prophecies are being fulfilled, identifying these as "the last days.

This is FALSE because the book of Daniel was actually written mostly after the events it "predicted" happened and as such most of the events it predicted will happen DID NOT happen. . . .Its very easy to accurately predict events with accuracy after the have already occurred ,no?

 The Bible—God's Word or Man's? it contains Historical and scientific information presented to prove that the Bible is accurate, trustworthy, and inspired by God for mankind's benefit. it has Full-color illustrations and is 192 pages long. Then as for your question:
What is the proof that the Christian god is the actual creator of the universe! i recommend another book:  Is There a Creator Who Cares About You?,  this book is another 192 page book, and it is written by scientists who believe in the creator and took pains to search out scientific proof of his existence. This book is specifically designed for people who seek scientific proof of the existence of a creator. Do me a favor and get these books and read them. then i would like to discuss with you your findings. These books are published by the Watchtower Bible and Tract Society.

What is this are you trying to sell books here? . . .The bible and everything in it REMAINS the thoughts, ideas, fantasies and myths written by men for reasons best known to them. . . .

Re: Pastor Chris Says "Take It" And People Fall. Do You Believe It?
« #227 on: Today at 07:50:36 PM »

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Quote from: yelanst on Yesterday at 11:18:02 PM
MR HARAKIRI,U WANTED EVIDENCE THAT ATTEST TO THE FACT THAT GOD EXIST AND THAT THE BIBLE IS REAL. THINK ABOUT THIS ANCIENT BOOK CALLED THE BIBLE WHICH HAS NEVER BEEN REVIEWED FOR MANY CENTURIES, BUT, STILL REMAINS CURRENT NOW AND, UNDOUBTLY, MANY YEARS TO COME.

How is the bible current?. . . .How does the bible agree with any laws of nature that we see around?



Quote
MOST OF THE PHYSICS AND CHEM TEST BOOKS U READ ARE BEING REVIEWED ANNUALLY TO MAKE THEM CURRENT.
(1) THINK ABOUT GODS PROMISE TO ISREAL OF MAKING THEM GREAT AND UNDEFEATABLE IN ANY WAR THE FIGHT. IS THAT HAPENNING TODAY OR NOT?

Again how is the bible current? It seems you do not really know what you are talking about because Israel have been defeated SO MANY times in different wars. . .A little reading will help you. . . .


Quote
(2)SERVERAL THOUSANDS OF YEARS AGO, JESUS SAID THAT AT THE END TIMES, NATIONS SHALL RISE AGAINST NATIONS AND KINGDOMS AGAINST KINGDOM, FAMINES, TRIBULATIONS, EARTHQUAKES, ETC. I BELEIVE U DO KEEP ABREAST WITH THE PRESENT DAY PHENOMENA.

My friend you do not know what you are talking about and Jesus was clearly LYING because famine, wars, natural disasters have been a part of man long because the writers of the bible wrote down what they said Jesus said. . . . In fact there is less war now a days than back in the days. . .Read the bible and see how violent the OT days were, more wars were fought before Jesus was born than now. . . .Now despite the fact that we have such things as nuclear weapons we are still FAR less violent than people that lived 4000 years ago, a simple visit to the middles east will tell you how violent they were, they were so violent that they build walls round their cities, the chance of a man dying in the hands of another man has greatly reduced now compared to during the time of Jesus. . . . .Natural disasters have ALWAYS being and will ALWAYS be a part of human and animal existence



Quote
(3) READ ECCLESIASTES 9:11, "THE RACE IS NOT FOR THE SWIFT, ". DID YOU EVER BELIEVE THAT FRANCE AND ITALY, THE TWO SEMI-FINALIST PLAYERS IN THE LAST EDITION OF THE WORLD CUP, WILL NOT MAKE IT TO THE SECOND ROUND IN TIS EDITION OF THE WORLD CUP.

YES. . . .France won the 1998 world cup and were kicked out in the group stage of the 2002 world cup so there is nothing new there. . . .


Quote
(4) "THE SWORD SHALL NOT DEPART FROM YOUR HOUSE". TILL DATE HAS THE SWORD DEPARTED FROM THE HOUSE OF DAVID AS A RESULT OF THE KILLING OF URIAH.(DONT ASK ME FOR DETAILS, DO SOME RESEARCH.)

You don't know anything thing about research do you?. . . .


Quote
(5)"I WILL BLESS THOSE WHO BLESS YOU AND CURSE THOSE WHO CURSE YOU". GERMANY LOST THE 2ND WORLD WAR SIMPLY B/C THE PROSECUTED AND KILLED OVER SIX MILLION JEWS. AMERICA IS BLESSED TODAY SIMPLY B/C THE ALWAYS FIGHT FOR THE JEWISH COURSE. BESIDES, TODAY YOU WILL SEE WITH ME THAT THE JEWS ARE PROSPEROUS IN WHATEVER THE DO. MOST AMERICAN SCIENTISTS ARE JEWS. THESE DUDES ARE BLESSED B/C GOD BLESSED THEM THOUSANDS OF YEARS AGO AND IT IS STILL MANIFESTING IN THEM TILL DATE.

My friend you CLEARLY do not know what you are talking about. . . .True, Germany lost the second world war but they have bounced back and today Germany is amongst the 5 biggest economies in the world, Germany as a nation is batter than Israel both economically and in terms if military might, The killed 6 million Jews yet as a country they are better than Israel. . . .So what the heck are you talking about?. . . . If the Jews are blessed why then are they not the most developed country on earth? Why don't they have the best economy or military might?. . . . .Blessed indeed. . . .As it stands now Germany is more blessed than Israel, no?. . . .

There are some American scientist that are Jews but it is NOT most of them, How many percentage of the NAS(the most prestigious scientific body in the USA) are Jews. . . .My friend stop bandying lies all over the place. . . .


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MY FRIEND, THINK ABOUT ALL THIS. FOR THE FACT THAT THIS SO CALLED HEBREW MYTH( ACCORDING TO SOME POSTERS) CALLED THE BIBLE SILL FINDS RELEVANCE AFTER THOUSANDS OF YEARS ATTEST TO THE FACT THE AUTHOR MUST BE A SUPERNATURAL BEING. THANK YOU.


How does the bible remain relevant? Tell me one developed nation that uses the principles of the bible to help it develop. . . .Even the Jews are secular state, no?. . . . .The bible remain relevant only to the underdeveloped and third world countries, no?. . . .

Nuclearboy

No offence meant, whiteroses, but which would you prefer - anointing from God or from Chris Oyaks? Also, do you believe Jesus was wrong when He said those who follow Hin must NOT be called teacher, master, Rabbi or father in any form and that we are equal?

Its in your head and its unhealthy putting a man where you should put God

You should watch this your wrong use of scriptures. You should know the context by which a statement is made. God is not against anyone being a teacher of father.

Ephes. 4:11
And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;

Hebrews 5:12
For when for the time ye ought to be teachers, ye have need that one teach you again which be the first principles of the oracles of God; and are become such as have need of milk, and not of strong meat.

Ephes. 6:4
And, ye fathers, provoke not your children to wrath: but bring them up in the nurture and admonition of the Lord.

And this idea of being annointed equally is errronous.

mazaje:

How is the bible current?. . . .How does the bible agree with any laws of nature that we see around?  
At least we have confirmed in this thread that Noah did not die of asphysiation inspite of being 25000feets above sea level due to the presence of oxygen in  the flood. Mordern science says that live cannot exist 5000f above sea level due to the absence of oxygen.
Again how is the bible current? It seems you do not really know what you are talking about because Israel have been defeated SO MANY times in different wars. . .A little reading will help you. . . .
isreal stands at the middle of her enemies. I tell you most solemly, no nation on earth can stand in the middle of her enemies and still stand firm. By the way, where did you get that information from?
My friend you do not know what you are talking about and Jesus was clearly LYING because famine, wars, natural disasters have been a part of man long because the writers of the bible wrote down what they said Jesus said. . . . In fact there is less war now a days than back in the days. . .Read the bible and see how violent the OT days were, more wars were fought before Jesus was born than now. . . .Now despite the fact that we have such things as nuclear weapons we are still FAR less violent than people that lived 4000 years ago, a simple visit to the middles east will tell you how violent they were, they were so violent that they build walls round their cities, the chance of a man dying in the hands of another man has greatly reduced now compared to during the time of Jesus. . . . .Natural disasters have ALWAYS being and will ALWAYS be a part of human and animal existence

at least there where no sucide bombers, terrorists, ritualists and kidnnapers
YES. . . .France won the 1998 world cup and were kicked out in the group stage of the  2002 world cup so there is nothing new there. . . .
france and italy was tipped among the likely countries to lift the trophy.
You don't know anything thing about research do you?. . . .
NO,
My friend you CLEARLY do not know what you are talking about. . . .True, Germany lost the second world war but they have bounced back and today Germany is amongst the 5 biggest economies in the world, Germany as a nation is batter than Israel both economically and in terms if military might, The killed 6 million Jews yet as a country they are better than Israel. . . .So what the heck are you talking about?. . . . If the Jews are blessed why then are they not the most developed country on earth? Why don't they have the best economy or military might?. . . . .Blessed indeed. . . .As it stands now Germany is more blessed than Israel, no?. . . .
isreal was created after the second world war.May be when isreal gets to the age of Germany, we can favorably compare both countries. isreal has one of the best secret service in the world(the mossad).her military is one of the best in the world today. in isreal, every kid above the age of 18 is a soldier. isreal is a silent world power. she dertermines the  world policies.
There are some American scientist that are Jews but it is NOT most of them, How many percentage of the NAS(the most prestigious scientific body in the USA) are Jews. . . .My friend stop bandying lies all over the place. . . .
your arguement is not grounded with facts.
How does the bible remain relevant? Tell me one developed nation that uses the principles of the bible to help it develop. . . .Even the Jews are secular state, no?. . . . .The bible remain relevant only to the underdeveloped and third world countries, no?. . . .

at least the USA REAFFIRMS EVERY YEAR THAT THE TRUST IN GOD. IS USA A THIRD WORLD COUNTRY?

mazaje:

How is the bible current?. . . .How does the bible agree with any laws of nature that we see around?  


Again how is the bible current? It seems you do not really know what you are talking about because Israel have been defeated SO MANY times in different wars. . .A little reading will help you. . . .

My friend you do not know what you are talking about and Jesus was clearly LYING because famine, wars, natural disasters have been a part of man long because the writers of the bible wrote down what they said Jesus said. . . . In fact there is less war now a days than back in the days. . .Read the bible and see how violent the OT days were, more wars were fought before Jesus was born than now. . . .Now despite the fact that we have such things as nuclear weapons we are still FAR less violent than people that lived 4000 years ago, a simple visit to the middles east will tell you how violent they were, they were so violent that they build walls round their cities, the chance of a man dying in the hands of another man has greatly reduced now compared to during the time of Jesus. . . . .Natural disasters have ALWAYS being and will ALWAYS be a part of human and animal existence


YES. . . .France won the 1998 world cup and were kicked out in the group stage of the  2002 world cup so there is nothing new there. . . .

You don't know anything thing about research do you?. . . .

My friend you CLEARLY do not know what you are talking about. . . .True, Germany lost the second world war but they have bounced back and today Germany is amongst the 5 biggest economies in the world, Germany as a nation is batter than Israel both economically and in terms if military might, The killed 6 million Jews yet as a country they are better than Israel. . . .So what the heck are you talking about?. . . . If the Jews are blessed why then are they not the most developed country on earth? Why don't they have the best economy or military might?. . . . .Blessed indeed. . . .As it stands now Germany is more blessed than Israel, no?. . . .

There are some American scientist that are Jews but it is NOT most of them, How many percentage of the NAS(the most prestigious scientific body in the USA) are Jews. . . .My friend stop bandying lies all over the place. . . .

How does the bible remain relevant? Tell me one developed nation that uses the principles of the bible to help it develop. . . .Even the Jews are secular state, no?. . . . .The bible remain relevant only to the underdeveloped and third world countries, no?. . . .

At least we have confirmed in this thread that Noah did not die of asphysiation inspite of being 25000feets above sea level due to the presence of oxygen in the flood. Mordern science says that live cannot exist 5000f above sea level due to the absence of oxygen

@ Skyndyp
The bible also points out clearly in the new testament that we have to verify every spirit that comes our way. For referential purposes, the bible has two basic problems ie. Translation & interpretation. Where you refute, flash my line beneath and i'll call to throw more light. We must learn!

@Joagbaje:

Here again in support of man rather than God as usual, are you? Lets not make this an issue.

Please JUST type out what Matthew 23: 8 says (if you truly believe you are a Christian, nothing will scare/embarrass you and nothing will make you pretend you didn't see a contrary opinion. Christ never evaded issues or questions - if you do, you are following somethng else and not the Risen Christ). Thank you.

PS: Look at the post above by "akwaowoudo". Let us learn (from God not chris thoughts)

yelanst:

At least we have confirmed in this thread that Noah did not die of asphysiation inspite of being 25000feets above sea level due to the presence of oxygen in the flood. Mordern science says that live cannot exist 5000f above sea level due to the absence of oxygen

how does this contradict science??

mazaje:

How is the bible current?. . . .How does the bible agree with any laws of nature that we see around?  


Again how is the bible current? It seems you do not really know what you are talking about because Israel have been defeated SO MANY times in different wars. . .A little reading will help you. . . .

My friend you do not know what you are talking about and Jesus was clearly LYING because famine, wars, natural disasters have been a part of man long because the writers of the bible wrote down what they said Jesus said. . . . In fact there is less war now a days than back in the days. . .Read the bible and see how violent the OT days were, more wars were fought before Jesus was born than now. . . .Now despite the fact that we have such things as nuclear weapons we are still FAR less violent than people that lived 4000 years ago, a simple visit to the middles east will tell you how violent they were, they were so violent that they build walls round their cities, the chance of a man dying in the hands of another man has greatly reduced now compared to during the time of Jesus. . . . .Natural disasters have ALWAYS being and will ALWAYS be a part of human and animal existence


YES. . . .France won the 1998 world cup and were kicked out in the group stage of the  2002 world cup so there is nothing new there. . . .

You don't know anything thing about research do you?. . . .

My friend you CLEARLY do not know what you are talking about. . . .True, Germany lost the second world war but they have bounced back and today Germany is amongst the 5 biggest economies in the world, Germany as a nation is batter than Israel both economically and in terms if military might, The killed 6 million Jews yet as a country they are better than Israel. . . .So what the heck are you talking about?. . . . If the Jews are blessed why then are they not the most developed country on earth? Why don't they have the best economy or military might?. . . . .Blessed indeed. . . .As it stands now Germany is more blessed than Israel, no?. . . .

There are some American scientist that are Jews but it is NOT most of them, How many percentage of the NAS(the most prestigious scientific body in the USA) are Jews. . . .My friend stop bandying lies all over the place. . . .

How does the bible remain relevant? Tell me one developed nation that uses the principles of the bible to help it develop. . . .Even the Jews are secular state, no?. . . . .The bible remain relevant only to the underdeveloped and third world countries, no?. . . .

(1)At least we have confirmed in this thread that Noah did not die of asphysiation inspite of being 25000feets above sea level due to the presence of oxygen in the flood. Mordern science says that live cannot exist 5000f above sea level due to the absence of oxygen. hence, this ancient book does not contradict mordern science.
(2)isreal stands at the middle of her enemies. I tell you most solemly, no nation on earth can stand in the middle of her enemies and still stand firm. Even your most exalted germany cant. By the way, where did you get that information from.
(3)at least there where no sucide bombers, terrorists, ritualists and kidnnapers. there were no earthquakes, hurricane, aids, and a lot more. you can add to the list.
(4)france and italy was tipped among the likely countries to lift the trophy. YOU seem not to understand my point. next time ask for clarification b/4 buffing.
(5)NO. IDONT KNOW ANY THING ABOUT RESEARCH.
(6)isreal was created after the second world war.May be when isreal gets to the age of Germany, we can favorably compare both countries. isreal has one of the best secret service in the world(the mossad).her military is one of the best in the world today. in isreal, every kid above the age of 18 is a soldier. isreal is a silent world power. she dertermines the world policies. AS SMALL AS SHE IS WITH A SMALL LAND RESOURCES AND POPULATION, HER GDP GROWTH RATE IS ABOUT THAT OF FRANCE AND GERMANY.SO HOW IS GERMANY ECONOMICALLY BETER THAN HER.?.ARGUE WITH FACTS.TECNOLOGICALLY, SHE IS SOUND. PLS FOR MORE INFO., GOTO:www.zionism-isreal.com.
(7)your arguement is not grounded with facts. JEWS CONSTITUTE MORE OF THE AMERICAN SCIENTISTS.(STILL TRYING TO GET THE FACTS. I WILL REACH U THE MOMENT I GET IT.)
(at least the USA REAFFIRMS EVERY YEAR THAT THEY TRUST IN GOD. IS USA A THIRD WORLD COUNTRY?MOREOVER, GREAT MEN OF GOD SUCH AS NORMAN VINCENT THE PEALE, THOMAS HAGGIN, DON MEON, ETC HAIL FROM AMERICA. WE HAVE MORE TRUE WORSHIPPERS OF GOD IN THE ADVAANCED COUNTRIES THAN IN AFRICA.

yelanst:

(1[b])At least we have confirmed in this thread that Noah did not die of asphysiation inspite of being 25000feets[/b] above sea level due to the presence of oxygen in  the flood. Mordern science says that live cannot exist 5000f above sea level due to the absence of oxygen. hence, this ancient book does not contradict mordern science.

How did you confirm anything? . , Stop using words out of place pls. . .You did NOT confirm anything, your ridiculous assumptions remain just that. . .When did you enter into a ship that rose 25000 feet with Noah and confirm anything?. . .The Noah's story REMAINS a plagiarized myth that was copied by the Jews from earlier civilization. . . .Google the Epic of Gilgamesh. . .

(2)isreal stands at the middle of her enemies. I tell you most solemly, no nation on earth can stand in the middle of her enemies and still stand firm. Even your most exalted germany cant. By the way, where did you get that information from.

Any country that has the Military might of Israel compared to that of its enemies(Syria, Lebanon, Palestine, Yemen) will stand in the midst of its enemies and survive, the enemies of Israel are not strong at all. If Israel had enemies like Turkey, Iran, Germany, France and England beside it, there will be no country like Israel existing on the map today, Israel is luck to have weaklings as enemies. . .If Israel had enemies like Turkey alone we would have been talking about something else now.  . . . . . . .

(3)at least there where no sucide bombers, terrorists, ritualists and kidnnapers. there were no earthquakes, hurricane, aids, and a lot more. you can add to the list.

Yes, there were no suicide bombers but there were people that kill others and sacrifice them unto their Gods just as it is written in the bible, there were people that plunder their enemies lands and enslave all of them, despoil was a routine part of wars at that time, Unbelief is enough for you to be invaded, take it or leave it, Human morality has GREATLY improved now compared to what was obtainable 4000 years ago, black and whites now live together peacefully and with equal respect in so many parts of Europe and America something that was not possible just 300 years ago. Read the bible and you will see where Yahweh was commanding the Jews to go and be terrorist(terrorism), he commanded them to kill others and sacrifice them and their entire city as burnt offerings unto him(rituals). . .Earth quake and hurricanes have been a part of this planet and will forever be a part of this world as long as the planet remains. Pls go and educate yourself about natural disasters like earthquakes and stop sounding like a baby. . .

(4)france and italy was tipped among the likely countries to lift the trophy. YOU seem not to understand my point. next time ask for clarification b/4 buffing.

So?. . . . .

(5)NO. IDONT KNOW ANY THING ABOUT RESEARCH.

Ok make sure you know what you are talking about before you come here, this is a public forum filled with knowledgeable people not a market

(6)isreal was created after the second world war.May be when isreal gets to the age of Germany, we can favorably compare both countries. isreal has one of the best secret service in the world(the mossad).her military is one of the best in the world today. in isreal, every kid above the age of 18 is a soldier. isreal is a silent world power. she dertermines the  world policies. AS SMALL AS SHE IS WITH A SMALL LAND RESOURCES AND POPULATION, HER GDP GROWTH RATE IS ABOUT THAT OF FRANCE AND GERMANY.SO HOW IS GERMANY ECONOMICALLY BETER THAN HER.?.ARGUE WITH FACTS.TECNOLOGICALLY, SHE IS SOUND. PLS FOR MORE INFO., GOTO:www.zionism-isreal.com.

Germany is still a better Economy than Israel, Germany is the biggest economy in Europe, it is a technology giant in Europe and the whole world, and has a military might that Israel can NOT defeat in a conventional war so what are you talking about, You said that Yahweh bless those who bless Israel and curse those who curse Israel but why is Germany still a better country than Israel after the Germans killed over 6 million Jews? The holocaust remains one of the greatest crimes against humanity but Germany still remains a better country than Israel, no?. . . .

(7)your arguement is not grounded with facts. JEWS CONSTITUTE MORE OF THE AMERICAN SCIENTISTS.(STILL TRYING TO GET THE FACTS. I WILL REACH U THE MOMENT I GET IT.)

. . . . I am still waiting, I just want you to show me the percentage of the NAS that are Jews. . . .

(at least the USA REAFFIRMS EVERY YEAR THAT THEY TRUST IN GOD. IS USA A THIRD WORLD COUNTRY?MOREOVER, GREAT MEN OF GOD SUCH AS NORMAN VINCENT THE PEALE, THOMAS HAGGIN, DON MEON, ETC HAIL FROM AMERICA. WE HAVE MORE TRUE WORSHIPPERS OF GOD IN THE ADVAANCED COUNTRIES THAN IN AFRICA.

My friend you don't know what you are talking about. . . .Christianity is in its waning days in USA. . .The USA is a secular nation that has NOTHING to do with religion. . . .African still remain the most religious people around. . . .Here is an excerpts from a study that was conducted some months ago. . .

"In many countries across the continent, roughly nine in 10 people say religion is very important in their lives," the study found.

That puts even the least religious countries in the region ahead of the United States, which is among the most religious of advanced industrial countries, the study's authors wrote."

http://edition.cnn.com/2010/WORLD/africa/04/15/africa.religion/index.html?hpt=Mid

@ tudor and harakiri

Can u instead prove to us who u think is the maker of the earth, if not yahweh ?

bondxie:

@ tudor and harakiri

Can u instead prove to us who u think is the maker of the earth, if not yahweh ?

This is one of the things that puts me off on nairaland. . . when a discussion or argument is going on and one party doesn't have anything useful to contribute, the next phase is either to derail the discussion or apply sentiments.

As i have repeated myself time and time and time over and over again (please go back to page one and read not glance through), I BELIEVE THAT THIS WORLD AS WE KNOW IT WAS CREATED BY EITHER A SUPREME BEING OR SUPREME FORCES BUT THAT BEING OR BEINGS IS NOT THE JEWISH GOD! ! ! For crying out loud, what is so complicated about that sentence that is so hard to grasp? Is it the English or people are just blinded by their convictions to the extent they've blocked out all form of perception? Watch out! Someone will come and claim that this particular post i have just typed is an insult.Imagine that! If you have nothing to contribute, either read through or move to another section.

I have stated countless reasons why i do not believe in the Jewish god and as much as i am looking for answers, i can bet my life that the answers are not in the fraud called the bible which has been used to manipulate and control the minds of billions of people since time immemorial.I did not for once claim that i had the answers instead i am asking you Christians that so believe in the Jewish deity to prove that he's indeed the real deal.What is so complex about that?

If i tell you to give me N100,000 to put under my pillow and it will double before tomorrow morning, you will outrightly refuse me but you are quick to believe that a man called Jesus walked on water all because a book called the bible said so.If i tell you to loan me N10 million so that i can export used bathroom slippers and canned Ogbono soup, you will say i am crazy and my idea is ridiculous but you same people easily cough out 3 months salary/earnings as pledges in church all because the Pastor assured you of "divine blessings".For you to have that much confidence, there must be some other proof other than a bible.Or does your god live in a bible? Mind you, that bible is printed by human hands in a printing press.

All i have asked time and time again is :

What is the proof that the Christian god is indeed the true creator of the universe! ! !

I am not asking for sentiments, off key derailing comments or bible quotations.I don't need any beating about the bust.Just go straight to the point.What is so hard about this question? If you believe that your salvation dwells within Christianity then you must have iron clad proof of what you worship other than sentiments!

This guy needs explanation about " take it and they will fall down" well, what are they actually taking from P Chris? We know how to get filled with the Holly spirit, the procedure is standard ( Repentance and accepting Jesus as Lord and saviour then one is save, any saved person has the Holly spirit) one cant be saved and still don't have the spirit of God. I have heard some pastors using that word, I will wonder what they are giving that one should take or must take. Remember YOU CAN NOT GIVE WHAT YOU DON'T HAVE !!!!!!!! Depend on what they are giving out. So those takers be carefull what you take from preachers as many are fake.

Some folks will now think this post to be sensible but it actually has no backing from the bible. You dont read your bible sir.

Im no pastor but from my humble understanding of the scriptures, i know that

1. Not all saved persons have the Holy Ghost. Acts 19:1 -6. and
2. The bible shows us that most times the Holy Ghost was received via a physical act, either the laying on of hands or breathing (blowing) on the one been ministered tp. Acts 19:1 -6

You will never understand this practice of Pastor Chris until u really study the bible. Dont hit at ppl when you really dont have facts.

I would really love to take you on on all uv been saying but uv said so much. i will deal a few key things you ve said.

When will people open their eyes to realize that everything about religion is a SCAM! ! !

Just look at some of the comments on here and you'll realize that it's the pastors people worship and not some "god". A typical Christ Embassy worshiper calls the name of Pastor Chris 10 times more than their "god".

You are attempting to pass off your poor opinion as facts. Christ Embassy Members do not call the name of P. Chris more than their God. Listening to you for a while, its evident that the root of your disbelieve is becos you havent read this bible you call a sham. No rational judge will condemn a case without first reviewing it, its just so simple. Every movement has a leader and it is not wrong for members of any group to admire their leader. The Bible even supports this and if you have read it, even a little, you wont talk this way.

The way some people carry Christianity on their heads, you would think they have been around since the time of Jesus. They say if you aren't Christian, you'll go to hell. . .what happens to your forefathers who died before the white slave traders came? Will all of them go to hell because of their ignorance?

It is rational for any man to propagate what he believes, just like you are doing here. Preaching your own gospel. If uv read the bible you would knw that it encourages christians to[b] carry christianity on their head. [/b] Its not an advice, it is an instruction which most times has penalties.
The bible has made it clear about Hell and has given christians the maths on it will affect all men. Its not for christians to say who goes there or who wont but we have an instruction to tell all men.

Nobody till date has been able to answer questions like these because they are all blinded by their GREED for blessings and FEAR of the unknown and they would rather believe in something that has a lot of inconsistencies than not believe in anything at all. Greed and Fear are the two greatest weaknesses of mankind and if you can overcome those two, you can overcome anything!

Really dont understand this phylosophy but i will tell u this: Greed and fear and just another aspect of humanity lost in the midst of so much that constitutes life. Overcoming them has only minor gains. iv heard and seen of selfless, innoncent ppl who died gruesome deaths, and fearless ones who went down like fowls, they did not overcome death or even poverty. Your phylosophy get as e be.

hmmm. . . .interesting topic,

In our present world, and within the context of our exceptional Nigerian situation, where there are all manner of senseless and spiritually meaningless themes of churches conferences, its is heartwarming for me to find a man after God's heart who did not make money, materialism mesmerism or the killing of perceived enemies etc, the focus of the Church's message/theme/conference. The integrity of the tags and the themes of church meetings in recent time have actually gone from bad to worse.

We now see and hear of crazy Church names or programs like ''Locust Army Church'', ''Run for your life chapel'', ''Go tell ahab that Elijah is in Town conference'', ''Suya Night-Operation roast your enemies like suya'', ''Night of Vengeance''. . . . . . through the use of Mirrors & pepper, Broom (like member & leaders of Action Congress party in a political rally), Cane, Feet washing, Blood of Sprinkling, the Life of God in the bottle, Salt licking. . . . . etc'' all in the name of dealing ruthlessly with some perceived enemies.

Most of such events depict nothing but abysmal ignorance, dangerous desperation, public display of greed driven Creed and strong determination to manipulate and ruthlessly exploit gullible people.

The concept of ''A Spirit Filled Church'' was indeed originally the vision of God, who is the Father of all Spirits, and that of the Lord Jesus Christ, the Spirit filled founder and the leader of the true Church. ''And He said to them, ''It is not for you to know times or seasons which the Father has put in His own authority. But you shall receive power when the Holy Spirit has come upon you, and you shall be witness to Me in Jerusalem, and in all Judea and Samaria, and to the end of the earth.''

Therefore, any Church where there is no passionate commitment to becoming and remaining filled with the Holy Spirit is out of touch and out of tune with Heaven. Such  a Church will soon become filled with some destructive scheme and the activities of some strange and contrary spirits. They might be occupied with some laudable activities, the might be claiming to be spiritually alive and materially rich, but from a divine perspective, they have fallen, they are dead, they are naked, poor and wretched.

@topic

Personally, i don't have anything against pastor Chris, i like him and respect / love him as a human being, but as for people who engage in these act, perverter s of the right way of Jesus Christ , they will all bear their judgement one day.

harakiri, mazaje and tudor,

i hav followed ds thread painstakinly in order to hav a balanced view of d matter discussed here. it is only normal that emotions have risen and ebbed over it, afterall it is religeous faith issue dt is being discussed; sentiments is normally very very high. nevadless, d facts so far established is visible to all, only if we can let common sense prevail. afterall i believe that d exercise of commonsense shld not be limited to some matters only.

i believe in one God, and nothn more.

incindentally, ds topic is an exact play of issued that have been on my mind for some time now. d pro and cons hav argued strongly, thou d cons hav presented stronger logic so far; just as it is on my heart. ds is also with d fact that some opinion like dt raised by Thomas Paine in his popular book, Age of Reasoning hav yet to b come to.

it is only true to admit dat formal education and pragmatic reasonin is not a friend of popular religeous beliefs, hypocrisy is trying to prove they truely r. judge the available facts and browse d history to verify ds.

i dont want to bore d readers with details of events taking place in my heart, and dont try to patronise me over it because u will not b welcome. i believe FAITH shld be personal experience, never imposed and, individuals hav d responsibility to find their bearings; jewish god no-jewish god.

d positions put forward by d proponents hav been weak and sterotypicallly predictable, i expected some inventiveness.

to d oppositions, it may be quite so easy to tear down d popular concepts, but what hav u got to replace it with? being able to offer more credible alternative will b d true mark of ingenuity otherwise we shall all end up miserable; both pros and cons.

my final word is dt spiritual faith remains an article dt can be fraudulent on communal terms but true, precious and pure when it is a personal discovery.

i shall discover mine with time, find urs.

Okay. . .

Please, could you answer a few questions for me as straight forward as you can without beating about the bush (like most people i asked before).If you can satisfactorily answer these questions, i promise to hold my peace and go back to being a Christian (lol    ) :

Ok let me answer and I hope im not drawing the thread back

(1)According to the history of the bible (from Adam till the present day), the world is not older than 5000 years and yet, there are archaeological findings dating back to millions and even billions of years back.There is no mention of ancient civilizations, dinosaurs or prehistoric plant life.All that was mentioned are what we see around us today.Could you explain this discrepancy?

Understand that these two subjects are sources of historical knowledge and its not wrong to have them both when looking into man's past. Just because they may seem to conflict a little here and a little there doent mean we should disapprove one over the other. We have to keep studying them. The bible and archeology are windows into the past. Understand that man grew in understanding or as we may say, from an uncivilised era of thinking to modernity; that is to say, the bible is a document whose record began at a certain time of civilisation.  if you ve read the bible properly, you'd notice that there seems to be a beginning before the beginning of the bible as Moses wrote it.

Also there are millions of places where the bible and archeology agree, on events animals that once lived on earth, etc. I believe that the two go hand in hand as historical sources, with the bible being a more credible source.

My main point her is simple: The bible never said the world is 5000 years old. It only recoreded from that time.

(2)In the book of Genesis, Cain killed Abel out of jealousy.He was exiled from Eden and he went to the land of Nod and married there.Can you explain who those people were coz from my recollection, at that time it was just Adam,Eve and two kids.So who are these people that were "omitted" in the story and who is this mysterious woman Cain married? Was it his sister? Or did he get married to animals?

Well from what i have read and understood, Cain married his sister.  I have also discovered that historians of old as well as their culture played down on women, and the stems of that can be seem today in china, india some other Asian countries. Much of that time only recognised and or recorded men. and that could be the reason y sometimes there apeared to be some dark sides of the story. But you analyse it for urself, Adam lived for a long time, alot could have happened during his time.

(3)In the same bible, the lord was angry with the world he created and was determined to destroy his creation (how ironic ).He instructed Noah to build an arc and put pairs of all living things in that ark.To the best of my knowledge, botanists spend their entire lives collecting and identifying species of a particular organism/animal/plant.Even if he lived 2,000 years on earth, there was no way he could have been able to achieve such a feat coz there were no airplanes,buses or ships to travel across the globe to get all pairs of organisms.Are we trying to say he came down to Africa to get the African elephant and then trekked back to India to get the Indian elephant? Think about it and you'll see how ridiculous it sounds.No roads.No buses.No planes.No ships.No rockets.No internet and yet. . .

You are not thining deeply enough. The bible never said that all species were of animals or organisams were saved. And judging from Noah's decent, the earth wasnt completely occupied rationally speaking. They werent up to 20 billion as we are today, they were concerntrated in a portion of the earth. Be rational  Speaking of feat, where did u think God was? If He were a supernatural being as was recorded, dont you think He was working too? You imagine, everthing God created was in a  tiny spot of the earth, the Eden Garden. How would you xplain of man , animals and plants from that spot? None  other than the study of the science of migration of man and beast and pollination for plants. as well as farming.

i think you condemed the bible even before you first opened it.

(4)The current bible used in Christianity today has two parts. . .the old and new testament.Now there are practices in the old testament that most churches especially Pentecostals have discontinued e.g eye for an eye, sacrificial offerings and so on.When you ask them, they tell you that Christ came and all things are washed away rendering the old testament null and void.If this is true, why then do they still revert to Malachi 3:10 when it comes to psyching up the congregation to give more offerings and tithes? Weren't all things of old washed away? The same people will tell you that no part of the bible is irrelevant and the same people choose the parts that suit them.Are they confused about who and what they are worshiping?Do they even have an idea of what they are doing?

Bro, i think you are confused. Did Jesus not accept offerings in the new testament of the bible? Where is the line btw the new and the old testament? Do you know where it is? You think it starts from Mathew, abi? The new testament of the book is not the new testament of religion or the worship of God. The new testament began when Jesus died and rose again. That is the christian's new testament. There is a lot to say bro, u really have to read ur bible first before doing this.

(5)The god in the bible is referred to as the all knowing god. . .the omni potent, omni present and all that. If he is all these, then he should have known that Eve would be tempted by the serpent and she would fall.He should have known how his creation would go till this present day.Why then did he create man when he knew that failure was imminent? The bible says he destroyed the world once and will do it again (some call it rapture, others call it Armageddon, a few think it's both ways). Why create something and condemn it? Is the bible implying that god is confused? That he makes errors? Isn't he supposed to be the all knowing god? Explain this please.

Bro, I have a revelation of who God is and i will share it with you. God is love. Total Love. He loved man before He created man and he wanted man to love Him back So He had to create man with full consciousness. Of course He knew the repercussions, but between the balance of His love for man and the fact that man could love him and know him and the possibility of redemption from the evils we have today, there was hope. You cant say becos of the fear of giving birth to a gay child or a criminal, then you aint bearing children. You can find hope somewhere that it aint gonna be your own child.  i believe this is Widom, that he created man. I am thankful to be here today. I am thankful God gave us a chance, hoping we will redeem ourselves.



(6)The people who brought us Christianity also brought guns,liquor and slave trade (i don't know about you but that doesn't sound "holy-like" to me).They superimposed their religion on the black folks as a means of control.The same people who brought us their religion don't take it as serious as we do.I might be wrong but Nigeria to the best of my knowledge is the most prayerful/religious country in the world (there is hardly any street in Lagos without at least 2 churches or fellowships) and yet, with all the abundance of religion, we are the most cold hearted people to our fellow human beings! Christianity as we know it today originated from the Catholic church whose practices are chiefly unorthodox or in plain English. . .idol worship (how else can you explain worshiping a graven image of Mary, praying to saints,kissing the rings and feet of priests and the rosary. . .all of which aren't mentioned in the bible). Christians all claim to be worshiping one god. . .why then can't a Christ Embassy worshiper spend a few Sundays at Celestial Church of Christ? Why can't a C.A.C Pastor minister in Assemblies of God? Why can't Winners Chapel members worship in K&S? Or are there different gods? Are the so called Christians confused? Please explain these few questions satisfactorily and i'll hold my peace.



Bro, you need not be confused. If you say all christians  must come together and mix i'd say except three is a limit, there wont be any success in the mix. There is such a thing as doctrine and this is the foundattion of each ministry you see today. The Catholics, if you read their history wanted a unified body of christian and it only broght chaos and sufferings and death. They wanted a unification of all religions and that brought about a corruption of the truths of old. It will never work that way. The diversity of revelations that produces doctrines  for each ministry is what, I believe is making the church thrive. The Bible says, God gave to some apostles, some teachers, some the gifts of healing and diverse gifts for the edifying of the church. The diverse gifts given to each one of us, RCCG, Christ Embassy, Deeper etc can  functioning independently yet part of one body of God, the church. More like the the system of the human body. This is God's desgn. The bible talks about  diferent churches too is the time of Paul the apostles.

That the whites brought christianity to us and now we seem to be champions of it is a remarkable, enlightening and sensational  happening. Its a story i love. Its not a failure of religion or christiainity but a failure in humanity. Its human behaviour and it happens everyday in our societies. I heard of a founder of a party who decamped to PDP, aint that funny.

Before the whites came, what we called our religion was bondage to unseen forces controlling this world. What makes the difference btw the white man and the black man today is not the color of the skin? Its just something  that the normal eyes cannot explain. We have intelligent blacks, enourmouse unused resources yet the black  man is in bondage, even in his own home. Have u never wondered why? Why has Nigeria, even with so much wealth and potentials suffered like a slave for so long? I ll tell u why. Becos of the bondage our fathers subjected us to by serving evil and unseen forces of the world. These unseen demonic worship has held us for so long.  But not anymore. We now have the religion of the white. The true religion. Jesus Christ and having saturated our towns and cities this much for this while, Nigeia will be redeemed. To take her position in the world.  Somehow, by God's grace, it will be.

NB : Please, don't give me the usual "god works in mysterious ways" or " the ways of the lord cannot be understood" or " do not question the lord" crap.I've heard it one time too many.

No quams.

Cheers!

@harakiri
I hope u get the message, try to find your own experience. Hopefully by the time u study all known and unknown being possibly u will get to have a personal experience with that supreme being u seek rather than dwelling your whole time looking for what u called contradictory statement in the bible. Best of Luck

@ mazaje and harakiri,

you guys have said it all. I beleive there's existence of the supreme being, but I have from the onset doubted the genuity of the book called bible. I stopped going to church way back 2002, and i can say i fare better. I understand spiritual matters now better than when i was in the church. Jesus himself said, let the dead continue to bury their dead, for those who have eyes, make use of them.

Thumbs up for you guys.

enitan2002:

@ mazaje and harakiri,

you guys have said it all. I beleive there's existence of the supreme being, but I have from the onset doubted the genuity of the book called bible. I stopped going to church way back 2002, and i can say i fare better. I understand spiritual matters now better than when i was in the church. Jesus himself said, [b]let the dead continue to bury their dead, for those who have eyes, make use of them.[/b]

Thumbs up for you guys.

I couldn't have put it better myself.Nice.

Sure the bible is a myth, unscientific and false. . . .Tell me one scientific theory that was gotten from the bible. . . .What about other historical narratives in the bible that are FALSE like the exodus and the Noah' flood?. . . . .

When i was younger, preparing for the SAT, i was taught to avoid the use of words like always, surely, certainly etc. I would advise you to do the same. Those words are absolute. And as i can show you here, the bible is not unscientific. About the bible not being a myth, i will not go into that one yet, but if you insist, i will. Let me just warn you that it will make me own this thread for some time now because, the amount of info i am going to bring out, with citations, to prove, that the bible is not a myth, , anyway,

A scientific theory does not have to be gotten from the bible to prove that the bible is scientific. If the bible does not contains scientifically accurate statements, it is obvious that it is not unscientific. For example,  look at these two examples:

What Is the Shape of the Earth?
That question has intrigued humans for thousands of years. The general view in ancient times was that the earth was flat. The Babylonians, for example, believed that the universe was a box or a chamber with the earth as its floor. Vedic priests of India imagined that the earth was flat and that only one side of it was inhabited. A primitive tribe in Asia pictured the earth as a huge tea tray.

As early as the sixth century B.C.E., Greek philosopher Pythagoras theorized that since the moon and the sun are spherical, the earth must also be a sphere. Aristotle (fourth century B.C.E.) later agreed, explaining that the sphericity of the earth is proved by lunar eclipses. The earth’s shadow on the moon is curved.
However, the notion of a flat earth (with only its upper side inhabited) did not disappear completely. Some could not accept the logical implication of a round earth—the concept of antipodes. Lactantius, Christian apologist of the fourth century C.E., ridiculed the very idea. He reasoned: “Is there any one so senseless as to believe that there are men whose footsteps are higher than their heads? . . . that the crops and trees grow downwards? that the rains, and snow, and hail fall upwards?”2

The concept of antipodes posed a dilemma for a few theologians. Certain theories held that if there were antipodeans, they could have no possible connection with known humans either because the sea was too wide to navigate or because an impassable torrid zone surrounded the equator. So where could any antipodeans have come from? Perplexed, some theologians preferred to believe that there could be no antipodeans, or even, as Lactantius argued, that the earth could not be a sphere in the first place!

Nonetheless, the concept of a spherical earth prevailed, and eventually it was widely accepted. Only with the dawn of the space age in the 20th century, however, has it been possible for humans to travel far enough into space to verify by direct observation that the earth is a globe.
And where did the Bible stand on this issue? In the eighth century B.C.E., when the prevailing view was that the earth was flat, centuries before Greek philosophers theorized that the earth likely was spherical, and thousands of years before humans saw the earth as a globe from space, the Hebrew prophet Isaiah stated with remarkable simplicity: “There is One who is dwelling above the circle of the earth.” (Isaiah 40:22) The Hebrew word chugh, here translated “circle,” may also be rendered “sphere.”3 Other Bible translations read, “the globe of the earth” (Douay Version) and “the round earth.”—Moffatt.
The Bible writer Isaiah avoided the common myths about the earth. Instead, he penned a statement that was not threatened by the advances of scientific discovery.

What Holds Up the Earth?
In ancient times, humans were perplexed by other questions about the cosmos: What is the earth resting on? What holds up the sun, the moon, and the stars? They had no knowledge of the law of universal gravitation, formulated by Isaac Newton and published in 1687. The idea that heavenly bodies are, in effect, suspended in empty space upon nothing was unknown to them. Thus, their explanations often suggested that tangible objects or substances held the earth and other heavenly bodies aloft.

For example, one ancient theory, perhaps originated by people who lived on an island, was that the earth was surrounded by water and that it floated in these waters. The Hindus conceived that the earth had several foundations, one on top of the other. It rested on four elephants, the elephants stood on an enormous tortoise, the tortoise stood on an immense serpent, and the coiled serpent floated on universal waters. Empedocles, a Greek philosopher of the fifth century B.C.E., believed that the earth rested upon a whirlwind and that this whirlwind was the cause of the motion of the heavenly bodies.

Among the most influential views were those of Aristotle. Although he theorized that the earth is a sphere, he denied that it could ever hang in empty space. In his treatise On the Heavens, when refuting the notion that the earth rests on water, he said: “It is not the nature of water, any more than of earth, to stay in mid-air: it must have something to rest upon.”4 So, what does the earth “rest upon”? Aristotle taught that the sun, the moon, and the stars were attached to the surface of solid, transparent spheres. Sphere lay nestled within sphere, with the earth—immobile—at the center. As the spheres revolved within one another, the objects on them—the sun, the moon, and the planets—moved across the sky.

Aristotle’s explanation seemed logical. If the heavenly bodies were not firmly attached to something, how else could they stay aloft? The views of the revered Aristotle were accepted as fact for some 2,000 years. According to The New Encyclopædia Britannica, in the 16th and 17th centuries his teachings “ascended to the status of religious dogma” in the eyes of the church.5

With the invention of the telescope, astronomers began to question Aristotle’s theory. Still, the answer eluded them until Sir Isaac Newton explained that the planets are suspended in empty space, held in their orbits by an invisible force—gravity. It seemed incredible, and some of Newton’s colleagues found it hard to believe that space could be a void, largely empty of substance.6

What does the Bible have to say on this question? Nearly 3,500 years ago, the Bible stated with extraordinary clarity that the earth is hanging “upon nothing.” (Job 26:7) In the original Hebrew, the word for “nothing” (beli-mah′) used here literally means “without anything.”7 The Contemporary English Version uses the expression, “on empty space.”
A planet hanging “on empty space” was not at all how most people in those days pictured the earth. Yet, far ahead of his time, the Bible writer recorded a statement that is scientifically sound.

The Bible and Medical Science—Do They Agree?
Modern medical science has taught us much about the spread and prevention of disease. Medical advances in the 19th century led to the introduction into medical practice of antisepsis—cleanliness to reduce infections. The result was dramatic. There was a significant reduction in infections and premature deaths.
Ancient physicians, however, did not fully understand how disease spreads, nor did they realize the importance of sanitation in preventing sickness. Little wonder that many of their medical practices would seem barbaric by modern standards.

One of the oldest medical texts available is the Ebers Papyrus, a compilation of Egyptian medical knowledge, dating from about 1550 B.C.E. This scroll contains some 700 remedies for various afflictions “ranging from crocodile bite to toenail pain.”8 States The International Standard Bible Encyclopaedia: “The medical knowledge of these physicians was purely empirical, largely magical and wholly unscientific.”9 Most of the remedies were merely ineffective, but some of them were extremely dangerous. For the treatment of a wound, one of the prescriptions recommended applying a mixture made of human excrement combined with other substances.10

This text of Egyptian medical remedies was written at about the same time as the first books of the Bible, which included the Mosaic Law. Moses, who was born in 1593 B.C.E., grew up in Egypt. (Exodus 2:1-10) As a member of Pharaoh’s household, he was “instructed in all the wisdom of the Egyptians.” (Acts 7:22) He was familiar with “the physicians” of Egypt. (Genesis 50:1-3) Did their ineffective or dangerous medical practices influence his writings?
No. On the contrary, the Mosaic Law included sanitary regulations that were far ahead of their time. For example, a law regarding military encampments required burying excrement away from the camp. (Deuteronomy 23:13) This was a profoundly advanced preventive measure. It helped keep water free from contamination and provided protection from fly-borne shigellosis and other diarrheal illnesses that still claim millions of lives each year in lands where sanitary conditions are deplorable.

The Mosaic Law contained other sanitary regulations that safeguarded Israel against the spread of infectious diseases. A person who had or was suspected of having a communicable disease was quarantined. (Leviticus 13:1-5) Garments or vessels that came in contact with an animal that had died of itself (perhaps from disease) were to be either washed before reuse or destroyed. (Leviticus 11:27, 28, 32, 33) Any person who touched a corpse was considered unclean and had to undergo a cleansing procedure that included washing his garments and bathing. During the seven-day period of uncleanness, he was to avoid physical contact with others.—Numbers 19:1-13.

This sanitary code reveals wisdom not shared by the physicians of surrounding nations at the time. Thousands of years before medical science learned about the ways in which disease spreads, the Bible prescribed reasonable preventive measures as safeguards against disease. Not surprisingly, Moses could speak of Israelites in general in his day as living to 70 or 80 years of age.—Psalm 90:10.
You may acknowledge that the foregoing Biblical statements are scientifically accurate. But there are other statements in the Bible that cannot be proved scientifically. Does that necessarily put the Bible at odds with science?

Mr. Mazaje, even though i am not highly educated, i like to do research. I will dredge up every encyclopaedia in the world
Now, let me talk about the flood.

it can hardly be a coincidence that in primitive legends around the world there is recollection of a great flood that destroyed mankind with the exception of a few who were preserved together. Memory of this is found in Mesopotamia and other parts of Asia, in Australia and the Pacific islands, among scores of Indian tribes in North and South America, in stories told among the ancient Greeks and the Romans, in Scandinavia, and among African tribes. Many of these accounts make mention of animals’ being preserved in a boat along with humans. Paralleling the Bible record, some relate that birds were sent out to determine when the water had receded. (Compare Genesis 7:7-10; 8:6-12.) No other ancient event is so widely recollected.

Historical details associated with the Flood have affected customs even down till our day. How? Well, the Bible reports that the Flood began “in the second month, on the seventeenth day of the month.” That “second month” corresponds to the latter part of October and the first part of November on our calendar. (Genesis 7:11) It is therefore noteworthy that many people around the world commemorate a Day of the Dead or Feast of Ancestors at that time of year. Why then? Because these customs reflect a memory of the destruction caused by the Deluge.


In the days of Noah, the Bible says, a great flood covered earth’s highest mountains and destroyed all human life that was outside the huge ark that Noah built. (Genesis 7:1-24) Many have scoffed at this account. Yet seashells are found on high mountains. And further evidence that a flood of immense proportions occurred in the not-too-distant past is the great number of fossils and carcasses deposited in icy, mucky dumps. The Saturday Evening Post noted: “Many of these animals were perfectly fresh, whole and undamaged, and still either standing or at least kneeling upright. . . . Here is a really shocking—to our previous way of thinking—picture. Vast herds of enormous, well-fed beasts not specifically designed for extreme cold, placidly feeding in sunny pastures . . . Suddenly they were all killed without any visible sign of violence and before they could so much as swallow a last mouthful of food, and then were quick-frozen so rapidly that every cell of their bodies is perfectly preserved.”

This fits in with what happened in the great Flood. The Bible describes it in these words: “All the springs of the vast watery deep were broken open and the floodgates of the heavens were opened.” The downpour “overwhelmed the earth,” being accompanied no doubt by freezing winds in the polar regions. (Genesis 1:6-8; 7:11, 19) There, the temperature change would be the most rapid and drastic. Various forms of life were thus engulfed and preserved in frozen muck. One such may have been the mammoth that was uncovered by excavators in Siberia. (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/6284214.stm http://www.answersingenesis.org/home/area/fit/chapter1.asp)

Around the Arctic Ocean there is a great swath of permanently frozen land, the greater part of which is covered with a frozen muck composed of sand, silt and earth. In an article entitled “Riddle of the Frozen Giants,” The Saturday Evening Post of January 16, 1960, observes:
“The list of animals that have been thawed out of this mess would cover several pages. . . . They are all in the muck. These facts indicated water as the agency which engulfed the creatures. . . . many of these animals were perfectly fresh, whole and undamaged, and still either standing or at least kneeling upright. . . .
“Here is a really shocking—to our previous way of thinking—picture. Vast herds of enormous, well-fed beasts not specifically designed for extreme cold, placidly feeding in sunny pastures, delicately plucking flowering buttercups at a temperature in which we would probably not even have needed a coat. Suddenly they were all killed without any visible sign of violence and before they could so much as swallow a last mouthful of food, and then were quick-frozen so rapidly that every cell of their bodies is perfectly preserved, despite their great bulk and their high temperature. What, we may well ask, could possibly do this?”
The logical answer is that it came with the rapid change that occurred at the time of the Flood. With the removal of the insulating watery canopy, the polar regions were suddenly plunged into a deep freeze, trapping animals that then lived far north of their present habitat. The proof that this was a sudden event, and not something that occurred over a long period of time, is the fact that even the green grass they were eating was quickly deepfrozen in their mouths and stomachs, where it has been discovered in modern times. How consistent this evidence is with what the Bible says about the Noachian flood!


Is There Worldwide Evidence?
Do we see similar effects of flooding throughout the earth? A. M. Rehwinkel gives an example in his book The Flood:
“Large masses of granite and hard metamorphic rock, for example, which can be traced to Scandinavia, are scattered over the plains of Denmark and northern Germany. Some of these blocks are of an immense size, weighing thousands of tons. The same phenomenon is found here in America in the New England States and in New York, Pennsylvania, Ohio, Michigan, Wisconsin, Minnesota, Iowa, in eastern and western Canada, and elsewhere. . . . In many cases the distance over which they have been transported is very great, and sometimes they are found at an elevation apparently much higher than their source.”
Some have theorized that these huge masses of stone were carried to their present locations on top of glaciers during an ice age. “However, these boulders are also found in warmer climates far from any signs of glaciation. For example, in Southern California,” notes the book Target: Earth. Too, glaciers cannot account for many of these “erratic” rock masses resting on ground higher, sometimes thousands of feet higher, than their apparent original location. “And there is still another problem connected with the erratics for which the glacial theory has no satisfactory answer,” observes Rehwinkel:
“And that is the question of the mixture of rocks in one locality brought there from sources lying in opposite directions. This phenomenon has been observed in several places of the earth. One of them is in Saxony, where rocks are found lying together of which some had their source in Scandinavia in the north, while others were carried there from some source in the south. . . . Moving ice cannot accumulate boulders from opposite directions and deposit them together at one place.”
“All Flesh . . . Expired”

According to the book of Genesis, outside the ark “all flesh that was moving upon the earth expired” during the worldwide flood. (Gen. 7:21) Is there widespread evidence of such a watery destruction of living creatures?

Interestingly, in the United States, England, France, southern Spain, Germany, Russia and elsewhere huge fissures in the earth have been found filled with the remains of large numbers of animals. They include mixtures of bones of the elephant, rhinoceros, hippopotamus, reindeer, horse, hog, bear, and many others. One such cavern near Palermo, Sicily, yielded more than twenty tons of bones for commercial purposes. Often these fissures are located on isolated hills at considerable height where animals would be expected to flee from floodwaters that “kept increasing greatly upon the earth.” (Gen. 7:18) With regard to the variety of animal remains found in one bone cave, the book Earth’s Most Challenging Mysteries asks:
“What made rabbits run into the same cave as coyotes? And an antelope with a wolverine and a grizzly? Bones of the mastodon were found, also a few reptiles . . . The whole mass of bones was covered and preserved by a flood deposit of gravel and rocks.”
An extraordinary testimony to the widespread watery destruction of animal life is the remains of the mammoths found throughout northern Siberia and into Alaska. Hundreds of thousands (some estimate as many as 5,000,000) of these creatures were rapidly buried and quick-frozen in icy muck. They are sometimes found in a near-perfect state of preservation, with undigested tropical vegetation in their stomachs and between their teeth. As to the type of catastrophe that could sweep away creatures over so widespread an area, Earth’s Most Challenging Mysteries observes:
“There is one significant fact that is always connected with every dinosaur fossil and every mammoth fossil, and that is that every fossil is almost invariably dug out of water-laid sedimentary rock. Every fossil is either dug out of shale, which is just floodwater mud hardened into rock, or out of floodwater sand hardened into sandstone, or frozen into permafrost.”

Target: Earth notes with regard to the Yukon district of North America: “The presence of bones, trees, peat, and other debris all mixed together down to a depth of nearly 100 feet, points to a cataclysmic flood of tremendous proportions that must have moved across the land, grinding the bodies of the animals with stones and trees and spreading the whole out over the Yukon Valley.”


And when the destruction had been accomplished, what happened to the floodwaters? A sinking of the sea basins would cause the waters to collect there, allowing dry land to appear again. (Compare Psalm 104:8.) In the oceans today there is more than enough water to have accomplished what the Bible describes; 71 percent of the earth’s surface is water, with an average depth of two and a half miles.

Human Testimony to an Earth-wide Flood
A worldwide flood would surely make a deep impression in the memories of those who survived it. It is only reasonable that they related this event to their offspring. Since it was from “the families of the sons of Noah,” the builder of the ark, that “the nations were spread about in the earth after the deluge,” we would expect to find references to the Flood in the traditions of different peoples. (Gen. 10:32) Is there such testimony to a worldwide flood?
In his book Die Sintflut in Sage und Wissenschaft (The Deluge in Legend and Science) Dr. Johannes Riem of Germany notes: “Among all traditions there is none so general, so widespread on earth, . . . as the Flood tradition.” Some 150 separate flood legends have been found from every part of the earth, including ancient Greece, Rome, India, Australia, and the Americas. Though these legends differ in details, there is remarkable agreement on basic points. For example: (1) There was a moral cause of the Flood, namely, man’s wickedness; (2) Global destruction of the human race took place; (3) One man was forewarned and saved himself and a few others in an ark or boat. The Historical and Critical Commentary of the Old Testament: Genesis says:
“The harmony between all these accounts is an undeniable guarantee that the tradition is no idle invention; a fiction is individual, not universal; that tradition has, therefore, a historical foundation; it is the result of an event which really happened in the ages of the childhood of mankind.”


Regarding the possibility of the existence of such suspended waters, the book The Genesis Flood (1961), by John C. Whitcomb, Jr., and Henry M. Morris, observes:
“The region above about 80 miles is very hot, over 100° F and possibly rising to 3000° F, and is in fact called the thermosphere for this reason. High temperature, of course, is the chief requisite for retaining a large quantity of water vapor. Furthermore, it is known that water vapor is substantially lighter than air and most of the other gases making up the atmosphere. There is thus nothing physically impossible about the concept of a vast thermal vapor blanket once existing in the upper atmosphere.”



consider this report by Byron C. Nelson in his book The Deluge Story in Stone:
“The way fishes by the millions are entombed in the rocks of England, Scotland, Wales, Germany, Switzerland, the American Rockies; the way elephants and rhinoceroses are buried by the millions in Alaska, Siberia, England, Italy, Greece; the way hippopotami are buried by the thousands in Sicily; the way reptiles are buried by the millions in western Canada, the United States, South America, Africa, Australia, to mention only a portion of such instances, absolutely require the explanation of great catastrophes for their elucidation.”
In this connection, William J. Miller, Emeritus Professor of Geology at the University of California at Los Angeles, notes in An Introduction to Historical Geology (1952): “Comparatively few remains of organisms now inhabiting the earth are being deposited under conditions favorable for their preservation as fossils. . . . It is, nevertheless, remarkable that so vast a number of fossils are embedded in the rocks.” A catastrophe such as the Noachian flood could account for this.
Around the Arctic Ocean there is a great swath of permanently frozen land, the greater part of which is covered with a frozen muck composed of sand, silt and earth. In an article entitled “Riddle of the Frozen Giants,” The Saturday Evening Post of January 16, 1960, observes:
“The list of animals that have been thawed out of this mess would cover several pages. . . . They are all in the muck. These facts indicated water as the agency which engulfed the creatures. . . . many of these animals were perfectly fresh, whole and undamaged, and still either standing or at least kneeling upright. . . .
“Here is a really shocking—to our previous way of thinking—picture. Vast herds of enormous, well-fed beasts not specifically designed for extreme cold, placidly feeding in sunny pastures, delicately plucking flowering buttercups at a temperature in which we would probably not even have needed a coat. Suddenly they were all killed without any visible sign of violence and before they could so much as swallow a last mouthful of food, and then were quick-frozen so rapidly that every cell of their bodies is perfectly preserved, despite their great bulk and their high temperature. What, we may well ask, could possibly do this?”


Throughout the world there are more than 90 different stories of a historical global flood. Among Hindus, this is known as the Jalapralaya. Jal means “water,” and pralaya denotes “dissolution”—hence, a “dissolution by water.” It is believed that all living creatures perished in the Jalapralaya. However, Manu found favour with his god and was given divine warning to build a ship to save himself and seven other rishis (sages), a total of eight persons. After his ship settled on a northern mountain, the flood subsided and Manu emerged to perform the first sacrifice to his god in this present yuga. Manu is also believed to be mankind’s first lawgiver. In fact, various Hindu myths assert that the progenitor of each successive race of humans was named Manu.
24 One Hindu version says it was the god Vishnu who warned and preserved Manu. Interestingly, the name Vishnu without the digamma is Ish-nuh, which in Chaldee means “the man Noah,” or “the man of rest.” Hindu tradition has Vishnu ‘resting’ or sleeping on a coiled snake called Shesha, floating on an ocean. Shesha means “remainder,” and according to careful researchers, Shesha represents the ‘residue’ of the universe after its destruction at the end of an age. Clearly, this myth alludes to the Bible’s historical record of the Deluge and the ark of preservation with its occupants.
25 The legendary individuals embodied in Manu—as surviving the Jalapralaya, being the progenitor of the present race, the first lawgiver, and performing the first religious sacrifice after the flood—are a logical confirmation of some events in the life of the Biblical Noah. (Compare Genesis 6:8, 13-22; 8:4, 18–9:7; 10:32.) Moreover, the Hindu account of the Jalapralaya agrees with some major features of the inspired Scriptural record, namely (1) a place of refuge for a few survivors, (2) an otherwise global destruction of life by water and (3) a seed of mankind preserved.
You seem very knowledgeable. perhaps you have heard of the Gilgamesh Epic. if you haven't copy it out and search google and then you will find it.  Try and see if it has any resemblance to the Biblical story of Noah’s flood.

On this point, Prince Mikasa, a well-known archaeologist, stated: “Was there really a Flood? . . . The fact that the flood actually took place has been convincingly proved.”(Monarchs and Tombs and Peoples—The Dawn of the Orient, page 25.)

Where are the archaeological findings that supports the exodus narrative?.

Considering that the events of Exodus occurred about 3,500 years ago, there is a surprising amount of archaeological and other external evidence testifying to the accuracy of the record. Egyptian names are correctly used in Exodus, and titles mentioned correspond to Egyptian inscriptions. Archaeology shows that it was a custom of the Egyptians to allow foreigners to live in Egypt but to keep separate from them. The waters of the Nile were used for bathing, which calls to mind that Pharaoh’s daughter bathed there. Bricks have been found made with and without straw. Also, in Egypt’s heyday magicians were prominent.—Ex. 8:22; 2:5; 5:6, 7, 18; 7:11.
5 Monuments show that the Pharaohs personally led their charioteers into battle, and Exodus indicates that the Pharaoh of Moses’ day followed this custom. How great must have been his humiliation! But how is it that ancient Egyptian records make no reference to the Israelites’ sojourn in their land or to the calamity that befell Egypt? Archaeology has shown that it was the custom for a new Egyptian dynasty to erase anything uncomplimentary in previous records. They never recorded humiliating defeats. The blows against the gods of Egypt—such as the Nile god, the frog god, and the sun god—which discredited these false gods and showed Jehovah to be supreme, would not be suited to the annals of a proud nation.—14:7-10; 15:4.
“Biblical archaeology confirms much of the Bible's historical accuracy. True science harmonizes with the Bible. The following facts were in the Bible long before they were discovered by secular scholars: the order of stages through which the earth passed in its development, that the earth is round, that it hangs in space on nothing, and that birds migrate.—Genesis, chapter 1; Isaiah 40:22; Job 26:7; Jeremiah 8:7.

FALSE archaeology DOES NOT confirm much of the bibles historical accuracy rather archaeology has shown that some of the major stories in the bible like the exodus and most of the conquest  are NON HISTORICAL. . . .There is no where in the bible where it states that the earth is round. . .The same bible talks about the sun revolving around the earth, the earth having four corners, and the earth being created before the sun and the stars. . . .Read a little about the ancient Greek philosophers and you will be HIGHLY amazed at their achievements when it comes to predicting the future and their knowledge of the cosmos despite not having special tools like we do today. . .”

Your problem is that while you are asking me to read, you yourself are not reading. I gave you citations from  bible, but it did not even cross your mind to look them but it occurs to you to encourage me to “read a little about the ancient Greek philosophers”. For me to do that, we i will have to do some little work, but look at you, i gave you the citations, and you cannot even look the up. Nawa o!

This is FALSE because the book of Daniel was actually written mostly after the events it "predicted" happened and as such most of the events it predicted will happen DID NOT happen. . . .Its very easy to accurately predict events with accuracy after the have already occurred ,no?

For me, the clincher in believing the authenticity of the bible is the accuracy with which the world powers and their sequence was prophesied. No other book in human history was able to do that and it is simply reasonable to believe that such a book could not have been written entirely by human prediction or thinking. If you want, i can breakdown the chapters of the bible that accurately talked about the world powers starting from Egypt to the current Anglo-American/United Nations world power.  

What is this? Where or when does the bible predict anything about the world powers?. . .What new information about the present world power is found in the bible?. . . . .Where does the bible mention the United nations or the USA?. . . .

I am tired of typing, and of doing all this research, i will treat these in my next post, probably next weekend when i am free. For now, digest the post you have just read.

You said i was trying to sell books. Fyi i was only pointing you to just some literature that presents the other side. I am even going to “sell more books” because i will post a list of references below my post. Guy, abeg, don’t let your ignorance be surpassed even by your ignorance. For one, last time i checked, Jehovah’s witnesses don’t sell their books, the books are “without charge”, the only ask you , if you feel like, to make a voluntary donation to support their work.  Let me enlighten you about the concept of intellectual honesty.  I want to believe that you possess this simple virtue. If you do, you will get those books and read them. “intellectual honesty” is characterized by a “readiness to scrutinize what one believes to be true” and “to pay sufficient attention to other evidence available.”

The bible and everything in it REMAINS the thoughts, ideas, fantasies and myths written by men for reasons best known to them. . . .

Again, let me re-iterate to you, truly educated people know the danger of using absolutes like REMAIN, cos what often happens is that when a person who uses absolutes, finds that his/her use was mistaken, the person is often too embarrassed to reverse his opinion, and sticks to it even though everyone around agrees on the “foolishness” of that stand.  I have always harped on the importance of sincerity in all my posts. My father used to say that a man convinced of his opinion is always of the same. He used to say that to warn me never to be like that, saying that this was the downfall of many a man. I hope you are not of that sort. It takes a great man to look at the other side, and an even greater man to admit that the other side is right, if the evidence is compelling. John F Kennedy said that “Sincerity is always subject to proof”. If mazage, hara-kiri, tudor, etc, are sincere, they will look at the other side.
Harakiri, i will answer your question: . Trust me, i will cos i love answering such questions. But let me finish replying mazage first.

homerac7:

harakiri, mazaje and tudor,

i hav followed ds thread painstakinly in order to hav a balanced view of d matter discussed here. it is only normal that emotions have risen and ebbed over it, afterall it is religeous faith issue dt is being discussed; sentiments is normally very very high. nevadless, d facts so far established is visible to all, only if we can let common sense prevail. afterall i believe that d exercise of commonsense shld not be limited to some matters only.

i believe in one God, and nothn more.

incindentally, ds topic is an exact play of issued that have been on my mind for some time now. d pro and cons hav argued strongly, thou d cons hav presented stronger logic so far; just as it is on my heart. ds is also with d  fact that some opinion like dt raised by Thomas Paine in his popular book, Age of Reasoning hav yet to b come to.

it is only true to admit dat formal education and pragmatic reasonin is not a friend of popular religeous beliefs, hypocrisy is trying to prove they truely r. judge the available facts and browse d history to verify ds.

i dont want to bore d readers with details of events taking place in my heart, and dont try to patronise me over it because u will not b welcome. i believe FAITH shld be personal experience, never imposed and, individuals hav d responsibility to find their bearings; jewish god no-jewish god.

d positions put forward by d proponents hav been weak and sterotypicallly predictable, i expected some inventiveness.

to d oppositions, it may be quite so easy to tear down d popular concepts, but what hav u got to replace it with? being able to offer more credible alternative will b d true mark of ingenuity otherwise we shall all end up miserable; both pros and cons.

my final word is dt spiritual faith remains an article dt can be fraudulent on communal terms but true, precious and pure when it is a personal discovery.

i shall discover mine with time, find urs.

I don't know what to say. . , All i asked was for them to provide proof but all i have got are sentiments upon sentiments and quotations.Nice post man.

Cheers.