Nuclearboy,
Now that you've mentioned the thief crucified with christ, according to you point of view on works, is the man saved?. Because he never worked any good works except bad bad works he did. What do you say?

Joagbaje,

You and I will fight o. FYI, I am now with nuclearboy. Infact, I'm watchlng some video clips of his robbery operations, as the good works that compelled Jesus to save him.


Nuclearboy, lest I forget o jare, please do nairaland a favour: As you groom your 2.5 yr-old daughter to inherit your best-grammarian trophy, kindly allow the mother visit her, once in a while, to impact intelligence and courtesy, so nairaland may be spared the pains of having another unintelligent and discourteous grammarian poster, in the distant future.

Again it comes down to lack of understanding and incomplete learning. You were taught this on Nairaland --

Old testament saints ----------> looking unto the cross ----> the cross <-----------New testament saints

Here's another free lesson --

Justification by grace ------------------------> Salvation <------------------- Justified by grace backed with works

Because you are incomplete, you hold onto one extreme which is grace (whist being no different from demons) forgetting that God is able to do according to His Will. How many people know when they are going to die and so can plan for the last minute? Those who give thier lives (so to speak) at the last moment, do you know the story behind the "story"?

And so you use the claim of "confession" as a crutch to self justify forgetting that God is the one who gives all the gift, not your mouth taking it. And His children are seen by what they do, not what they confess.

@All

I had remarked that  we should strive to avoid the errors of the Pelegians and Antinomians. Obviously this advise was as nothing to quite a lot of persons.
And what I have seen are these persons tackling Antinomianism that wasn't there.
All that was called for was for them to show what role works had to play in the justification of the sinner. Joagbaje had asked that. I have asked that. We are still waiting.

@Ttalks

I had been thinking of you since I started commenting on this thread. Your thread on freewill is awesome.

Enigma:

^^^
OK I will indulge you a little and I will keep it simple.

1. You said the salvation of the 3000 in Acts 2 was "instant" ---- so I asked you for proof of that statement. (Please remember that I have now quoted passages saying people were being saved.

Here is it.Being born again is an instant experience. We use such term as soul winning or soul saving generally. But soul winning is a process an not an instantaneous experience. But we use the  phrase in generic term.
Man is a spirit, he has a soul he lives in a body. The soul is the realm of man's feelings, emotions, thoughts , appetites, etc the door is the mind. The body is the man's outer case. But the spirit is the real person .
With the spirit, man makes contact with God and the spiritual realm. With the soul, he makes contact, emotionally and intellectually . And with the body, he makes contact with the material world.    

When a man get saved or born again, it is the spirit of man that gets regenerated. But the soul ( mind) is not born again,  The body also is not born again. But God desires the perfection of all.

1 Thessalonians 5:23
23 And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and[ I pray God] your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.


So the spirit gets saved instantly a man receives christ. But the salvation of the soul(mind) is gradual. It will keep being saved until perfection or when the man gets to heaven. That is the essence of spiritual growth. What saves a man's  spirit is when he recieves the life of God in his spirit . But the soul is saved gradually through the process of mind renewal.  

Romans 12:2
2 And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what[ is] that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God.

That is why some Christian do make mistakes, if they've not allowed enough of the word to build them. But even if they should die. They are saved already.

But the salavation of the body is connected to the spiritual growth in the soul. Understanding your rights and privileges in Christ.  That is why a Christian can be healed or be sick or be poor or rich. It depends on the level of your souls renewal.

3 John 1:2
2 Beloved, I wish above all things that thou mayest prosper and be in health, even as thy soul prospereth.

2. Another question I raised (even if not directed at you specifically) --- when exactly was Cornelius and his household "saved" or "born again"?

They God saved at the hearing of Gods word through Peter.

3. Did the "borning again" of Cornelius and his household involve them making a "confession by mouth"?

definately they must have acted by faith upon whatever peter was teaching.

Enigma,
You still haven't answered me , from your point of view, at what point does a man get saved.

@joagbaje

listen to bible speak

Hebrews 6:4-6 (King James Version)

4Fo[b]r it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost, [/b]

5And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,

6If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame

From the above quote you can see that it is possible for someone who had tested the fruit of the spirit and beleived in christ to loose salvation.

Joagbaje:

Enigma,
You still haven't answered me , from your point of view, at what point does a man get saved.

Read Ttalks' post number 164; also read my comment in post 175 "We have been saved, we are being saved and we will be saved"!

I do not want to confuse you further but so as you know that things are not as simplistic as you take it: there are those who argue that a person is regenerated even before he shows faith; faith itself is a gift; and a person who shows faith does so because he has been regenerated. If you don't believe me ask 5solas to explain it to you as I am fairly confident this is where he stands.

@ Joagbaje

Regarding your post no 197

A. The first part seems like you just reproduced material from your CEC Manual. Until you drop your Manual and Rhapsody of erRoRs you will always struggle to accept what the Bible teaches.

Instead of quoting your manual why not try answering the question again using only the Bible? Does Acts 2 say the 3000 were born again instantly? Acts 2 and 1 Cor 1 talk about people "being saved" ("on the way to salvation"; please explain those passages in their own right without reference to CEC Manual or doctrine!

B. You say the household of Cornelius got saved at the hearing of God's word through Peter. Can you please tell us where you got tis information --- or are you adding to Scripture again? Can you tell us when exactly during Peter's speech they were saved then? Remember that even while Peter yet spoke before/without making an "altar call" the Holy Spirit actually descended on the people.

C. You say the household of Cornelius must have acted by faith on Peter's teaching. Was this by confession by mouth which you say is necessary? Was this by silent/mind prayers which you say is not enough or acceptable.

D. Additional Question: you say "There is nothing a natural man will offer God that will be accepted until he gives his heart to God first." By this quote you have always meant that the person has to be born again first before his "good works" can be accepted by God.

Question: How come the angel told Cornelius "Thy prayers and thine alms are come up for a memorial before God." at a time when Cornelius had not yet been "born again" according to your theology?

5solas:

@Ttalks

I had been thinking of you since I started commenting on this thread. Your thread on freewill is awesome.

Thank you.
That thread highlights my view and i believe the biblical position on freewill.
I know it's a very controversial view capable of turning well meaning christians against each other,
but,that isn't a problem for me.
Besides,that isn't the only controversial view on this christian faith of ours that I hold/have;
I also hold/have controversial views on hell and also on the devil once being an angel of God.

But that aside:

5solas:

@All

I had remarked that  we should strive to avoid the errors of the Pelegians and Antinomians. Obviously this advise was as nothing to quite a lot of persons.
And what I have seen are these persons tackling Antinomianism that wasn't there.
All that was called for was for them to show what role works had to play in the justification of the sinner. Joagbaje had asked that. I have asked that. We are still waiting.

Your question has been answered; by myself and others, . . . . . . . .  it was even answered before you asked the question.

Enigma:

A. The first part seems like you just reproduced material from your CEC Manual. Until you drop your Manual and Rhapsody of erRoRs [/b]you will always struggle to accept what the Bible teaches.

[b]Instead of quoting your manual why not try answering the question again using only the Bible? Does Acts 2 say the 3000 were born again instantly? Acts 2 and 1 Cor 1 talk about people "being saved" ("on the way to salvation"; please explain those passages in their own right without reference to CEC Manual or doctrine!

Must you add nauseating hodgepodge in your post? The rhapsody would have been a great help to your milk teeth. I quoted scripture. I've explained to you about the issue of salvation, which you seem to have neglected. The work of regeneration is instantaneous.  The acts chapter 2  you quoted does not suggest process of salvation for an individual. But original manuscripts didnt suggest that . I will make it clearer for you in a moment.

B. You say the household of Cornelius got saved at the hearing of God's word through Peter. Can you please tell us where you got tis information --- or are you adding to Scripture again? Can you tell us when exactly during Peter's speech they were saved then? Remember that even while Peter yet spoke before/without making an "altar call" the Holy Spirit actually descended on the people.

Did I talk about an altar call?. Certain people get saved in a spectacular way. Without altar call, Even here in Nigeria. But they still confess the lordship of christ.

C. You say the household of Cornelius must have acted by faith on Peter's teaching. Was this by confession by mouth which you say is necessary? Was this by silent/mind prayers which you say is not enough or acceptable.

Definitely,when the holyghost inspire a person and reveal Jesus to his heart and he confess his lordship. He is saved. Did you read that they were magnifying God. That' confession of faith. They would have declared his lordship in the process, because Peter was presenting Jesus ton them .

Acts 10:46
46 For they heard them speak with tongues, and magnify God.

D. Additional Question: you say "There is nothing a natural man will offer God that will be accepted until he gives his heart to God first." By this quote you have always meant that the person has to be born again first before his "good works" can be accepted by God
Question: How come the angel told Cornelius "Thy prayers and thine alms are come up for a memorial before God." at a time when Cornelius had not yet been "born again" according to your theology?

Cornelius was already a proselyte, he believed in the God of the Jews and was serving God to the best of his knowledge. But didn't realize that the system has changed. He believed in the God of the Jews and was seeking him. God has to direct him aright. his giving of alms was according to jewish law. There was a memorial under the law.

Enigma,
At what point does a man get saved?

chukwudi44:

@joagbaje

listen to bible speak

Hebrews 6:4-6 (King James Version)

4Fo[b]r it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost, [/b]

5And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,

6If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame

From the above quote you can see that it is possible for someone who had tested the fruit of the spirit and beleived in christ to loose salvation.

I don't think I ever deny the fact that a man once born again can fall out. I have quoted that scripture severaly on NL.

@Joagbaje

Regarding ur question on when a person is saved?

Answer: when God saves the person. If you want to know the precise minute or second, ask God!!! I suspect however that you know better than God anyway.

@enigma

Enigma:

@Joagbaje

Regarding your question on when a person is saved?

Answer: when God saves the person. If you want to know the precise minute or second, ask God!!! I suspect however that you know better than God anyway.

I'm dealing with precission of timing. I'm dealing with your theological point of view. From my knowledge of the bible, it's instant. Chukwudi says it will be determined in heaven, some others says when a man become perfect and sanctified. Someone once told me , that when God is pleased with you , he will then write your name in the lambs book. That he knows the day God wrote his name, he saw heaven opened when he was doing evangelism and saw his name in a scroll. You must present your case from a perspective.

I don't think I ever deny the fact that a man once born again can fall out. I have quoted that scripture severaly on NL.

I thought you said a man is savd instanteneneously once he gets born again,how on earth can he fall out again?

Joagbaje:

@enigma
I'm dealing with precission of timing. I'm dealing with your theological point of view. From my knowledge of the bible, it's instant.

^Answer your own question: it is instant. . .when?

I thought you said a man is savd instanteneneously once he gets born again,how on earth can he fall out again?
@ chukwudi44
Jesus died for the past,present and future sins of every man,being born again is instantanious,a man won't go to hell because of an action sin is a nature,a man will go to he'll because of the nature he has.
There is remission of sin and forgiveness of sin,depending on what you mean by falling off,it's a mans responsibility to either stay in faith or out of it.in his falling out state he is still saved,Thats if already he's been born again. because of the new nature that he carries what he needs at This stage is forgiveness.life is all about choicies,just the same way you have chosen not to accept what Joe agbaje is trying to teach you so far

5solas:

@All

I had remarked that  we should strive to avoid the errors of the Pelegians and Antinomians. Obviously this advise was as nothing to quite a lot of persons.
And what I have seen are these persons tackling Antinomianism that wasn't there.
All that was called for was for them to show what role works had to play in the justification of the sinner. Joagbaje had asked that. I have asked that. We are still waiting.

^^You make me feel exasperated as if this is a dialog of the deaf. You give the impression of being a very dogmatic person: If the answer is not couched in certain terms, then you don't see it! Your question has been answered severally on this thread. . .perhaps you should reread the earlier posts. Or tell us your answer for I suspect that despite your words, you are an antinomian. BTW, neither Enigma, nuclearboy or myself &c has defended Pelagianism here except perhaps Joagbaje.

In fact this conversation has wandered far afield from the original post where Joagbaje was called on to defend his position that James taught "Justification by works."

Aletheia - I am waiting for the last of my Tintin. . . thx

_nuclearBOY

i dont mean to blow my trumpet, but (and now i mean this with no pun intended) on your most intelligent day, you cant flaw a half-brained nit-wit. Having my humble self engage in a tussle of words with you will be condescending to say the least. I have too much rank for that. Theres no doubt you are the champion of this vituperation battle, i concede defeat here but please (and i mean real please) dont forget to stay within the threshold of your stupidity. At little times here and there you seemed to have exceeded your boundary. LOL!!!!!

^^^ You have neither trumpet nor capability to blow one. What you're known for is the dance of fools and the worship of chris yaks

Mba_Emeka

I really must appologise on behalf of Nuclearboy. In spite of his grave shortcomings, he remains my friend- as much as Kunle is.

You talked about his intelligence issue- his major handicap- which he often attempts to becloud with some grammar shots, which I won't even mistake for good COMMUNICATION SKILLS. Worse still, his mannerism leaves much to be desired.

Kindly ignore his vituperations- an attribute never-do-wells are known for.

The real issue is that "Truth is bitter". You all are hot, bothered and smarting, hence your sweat. Rather than come out of the dirt you live in, you try to drag others down (but by word, not truth).

Call me a BOY - e no pain me. This BOY is smarter, sharper, more truthful and is born both of blood and of God.
Call me unintelligent - e no pain me. Even you do not believe that but you see your image when you dress your curls. You remind me of the Jerry Springer Show
Call me unregenerated - but why is it you that is smarting and accepting correction from everyone?
Call me whatever - means nothing to me OR EVEN to you. Its truth thats bitter ergo why e dey pain you. Lies are funny and sound stupid -

like when you say you are Christians. You are "yaps-yakkian dummies"
like when your transverstite swivel hipped "Oga" claims God uses faith. Moronic!

Thats why people are amazed when you say anything thats true (the once or twice that ever happened on NL) - because they know you're dead rotting meat from the backside of a skunk

Thats why its you that steal from hotels, banks, even yourselves all to give chris. Imagine the extent of derangement that makes your people steal from your own bank to give your oily chairman.

They say show me your friend and I'll tell you who you are. I have NO friends that are criminals, moronic, man-worshippers or dunces. As I once told Jo-boy, Balaam's donkey would have kicked you to Paris and back.

BTW, the word is "apologise" not "appologise". This is an international forum - go learn good english! Or come pay this BOY to teach you some.

Next!

Up Nuclearrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr

Wow. I knew it! You must be useful for something. Don't worry- whenever I need to spellcheck, I will buzz you. Yeah you badly need a job.

@nuclearboy

Thats why its you that steal from hotels, banks, even yourselves all to give chris. Imagine the extent of derangement that makes your people steal from your own bank to give your oily chairman.

What is all these songs about stealing from hotel. Are you a woman? You talk Like someone that can't let go of another mans mistake. You won't let the world rest because of one man's mistake or error. Did he say church taught him to be stealing ? . You're being too petty.

^^^

nuclear --- boy, now woman!

ce ------- thief, criminal, cross dresser, scammer

call off your dogs, Jo!

Wheez, i'm bRack at last, alas things have gone so far and i'm so lazy.
Where do i start o, i'll try tracing page 2, think i still got business there, and btw Joagbaje you're yet to answer your Paul-James query. I'm hoping that i won't have to engage in all these pelage/antimonia talk(at least not today) and its colleagues that have subtly taken over.

Yes! Faith alone in christ is
all that is required for
salvation. It is not of works.

To start with Joagbaje, the statement above isn't perfectly correct. Before i raise your b.p, i'll quote Ephesians. by GRACE are you saved through FAITH.
One would be naive to displace the place of grace in salvation. So while you're right, it won't be wrong to say salvation involves grace and faith. Then we may have to dive into the theologies of repentance and mercy and atonement and more. They're all involved in salvation. The way i see it, it's like TutorA says all that needs to be done is press the power button and your laptop comes on. TutorB comes and talks about not just the power button but also the battery, and the processor, and the cmos, and RAM, and how they're all involved to put on your laptop.
They're both correct and agreed, it's not a matter of having great idea and using poor vocab. It's the same thing all over scripture. It is not just the Word of X and Z but in truth the Word of God. It is scripture and EVERY Word of God is pure. You're the wrong one, never the Word. That's basic sunday school.

Image123:

They're both correct and agreed, it's not a matter of having great idea and using poor vocab. It's the same thing all over scripture. It is not just the Word of X and Z but in truth the Word of God. It is scripture and EVERY Word of God is pure. You're the wrong one, never the Word. That's basic sunday school.

I am the wrong one? Pls explain.

@ chukwudi44
Jesus died for the past,present and future sins of every man,being born again is instantanious,a man won't go to hell because of an action sin is a nature,a man will go to he'll because of the nature he has.
There is remission of sin and forgiveness of sin,depending on what you mean by falling off,it's a mans responsibility to either stay in faith or out of it.in his falling out state he is still saved,Thats if already he's been born again. because of the new nature that he carries what he needs at This stage is forgiveness.life is all about choicies,just the same way you have chosen not to

accept what Joe agbaje is trying to teach

you so far

EZEKIEL 33:12-20

12 “And you, son of man, say to your people, The righteousness of the righteous shall not deliver him when he transgresses, and as for the wickedness of the wicked, he shall not fall by it when he turns from his wickedness, and the righteous shall not be able to live by his righteousness [1] when he sins. 13 Though I say to the righteous that he shall surely live, yet if he trusts in his righteousness and does injustice, none of his righteous deeds shall be remembered, but in his injustice that he has done he shall die. 14 Again, though I say to the wicked, ‘You shall surely die,’ yet if he turns from his sin and does what is just and right, 15 if the wicked restores the pledge, gives back what he has taken by robbery, and walks in the statutes of life, not doing injustice, he shall surely live; he shall not die. 16 None of the sins that he has committed shall be remembered against him. He has done what is just and right; he shall surely live.

17 “Yet your people say, ‘The way of the Lord is not just,’ when it is their own way that is not just. 18 When the righteous turns from his righteousness and does injustice, he shall die for it. 19 And when the wicked turns from his wickedness and does what is just and right, he shall live by this. 20 Yet you say, ‘The way of the Lord is not just.’ O house of Israel, I will judge each of you according to his ways.”

IF YOU LIKE CONTINUE IN SIN BELEIVING JESUS HAVE DIED FOR THEM,YOU WILL SURELY REAP YOUR REWARD

Another brilliant writeup by Chukwudi44

WOF people,

Since the Bible says "the righteousness of THE RIGHTEOUS shall NOT deliver him when he trangresses" etc, how do you explain your "nature of righteousness"?

Verse 17 above is particularly directed at such eisegesis. Please let us have your take on your doctrine of confession as opposed to the direct statements above which clarify that any supposed "nature" of righteousness ALONE will NOT save a transgressor?