Joagbaje, Come And Answer Your Paul James Query. - Religion (3) - Nairaland
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| Re: Joagbaje, Come And Answer Your Paul James Query. by newmi(m): 8:09am On Aug 27, 2010 |
chukwudi44: Who would that be?  am an independent commntor base on my instinct of interest, l owe nobody but Christ not even the least allegence on NL, if you sound reasonably logical in consistency with the principles of the gospel as prescribed by the scriptures well then you win my support.  chukwudi44: Well if must know l had no such intent for that scripture to be reserved for anybody including you my honourable contributor, l was prompted to introduce that scripture in the singular attempt to make all see that we need not dwell on the paul in the body of saul because that would have no significant bearing on us today, all of those details were historical fact, our emphasis today should rather be hindged on the present truth about these men on whose foundations we have been built and hawned in the gospel |
| Re: Joagbaje, Come And Answer Your Paul James Query. by Joagbaje(m): 8:19am On Aug 27, 2010 |
Image123: I'm not flattering Paul. 1 Corinthians 15:10 10 But by the grace of God I am what I am: and his grace which[ was bestowed] upon me was not in vain; but I laboured more abundantly than they all: To even call him apostle to the Gentiles is an understatement. He is the apostle for the church. Because the grace of God has left israel to the gentile. So when you talk about the church now, It is the gentile. Paul is the man that has the revelation of the church and who the Christian man is. |
| Re: Joagbaje, Come And Answer Your Paul James Query. by Joagbaje(m): 9:20am On Aug 27, 2010 |
Image123: There are different levels of truths. There are lesser truths and greater truths.Paul had greater light above the others. 1 minus 2 in primary school = impossible or cannot. 1 minus 2 in secondary school = -2. Both are correct truths at their respective level. the same way spiritual laws. Some things James says may not be absolutely wrong in context based on intention of his heart. But wrong words were used in many of them. Paul had deeper truth. Take Peter and Paul for instance. PETER 1 Peter 2:2 2 As newborn babes, desire the sincere milk of the word, that ye may grow thereby: PAUL Hebrews 5:13 13 For every one that useth milk[ is] unskilful in the word of righteousness: for he is a babe. Concerning the issue of eating idol food. People generally believe it is defile, but be honest, from paul's perspective, there is no defile meat . There is nothing like idol. There is difference between someone thaparticipate idol food with pure heart and those who actually participate in idolatry, just like this who says "so and so is our culture". In some parts of Nigeria, people offer foods to idols , some drop them in junctions , forest etc. People generally fears these sacrifices. But from paul's level of truth. If you're hungry you can eat it. There is nothing like idol. So far as you receive it with thanksgiving . It is sanctified. James says . " don't touch it" So from James perspective, if they bring you such food , reject it. But from Pauls perspective , if they bring you such food eat. But there are two clauses: 1. If you don't have this deeper understanding that idol is nothing, then don't eat it. 2. If someone who doesn't have this knowledge is around you, don't eat it. Because his conscience may be defile since he is a babe. But the script you quoted in revelation. Is talking about actual participation. Revelation 2:20 20 Notwithstanding I have a few things against thee, because thou sufferest that woman Jezebel, which calleth herself a prophetess, to teach and to seduce my servants to commit fornication, and to eat things sacrificed unto idols. Imagine a Christian doing masquerade in the yam festival in the village , saying it's his culture. This is actual participation in idols. The fornication here is an idolatry Sexual play and form of temple prostitution. The same way the eating of the food is. This was one major headache of Paul ,with the Corinthian culture in the church. It is not the food content . 1 Corinthians 10:7-8 7 Neither be ye idolaters, as[ were] some of them; as it is written, The people sat down to eat and drink, and rose up to play. 8 Neither let us commit fornication, as some of them committed, and fell in one day three and twenty thousand. You will see that this kind of fornication goes hand in hand with idolatry. Its a cultural thing, you can even sleep with relative under that kind of worship. No law involved. That's why a brother in corithinan church did so tey Paul had to cast him out of the church. He chose his fathers wife as sin partner. The same goes for Christian that says I am sagitarius, pieces and follow the zodiac. |
| Re: Joagbaje, Come And Answer Your Paul James Query. by PastorAIO: 10:04am On Aug 27, 2010 |
Joagbaje: [size=16pt]OLODO[/size] |
| Re: Joagbaje, Come And Answer Your Paul James Query. by Joagbaje(m): 10:07am On Aug 27, 2010 |
Pastor AIO: YOU ARE THE OLODO RABATA |
| Re: Joagbaje, Come And Answer Your Paul James Query. by PastorAIO: 10:11am On Aug 27, 2010 |
Joagbaje: Don't go and change it o! Because I know that when you realise your mistake you will go and modify the post. Please leave your olodo-ishness open for the world to see.  Olodo rabata roboto  |
| Re: Joagbaje, Come And Answer Your Paul James Query. by newmi(m): 10:24am On Aug 27, 2010 |
Pastor AIO: Joagbaje: hey! hey! calm down guys, let us not give branches to a tree which does not exist. This is a peace discuss forum. una don hear! ! !  |
| Re: Joagbaje, Come And Answer Your Paul James Query. by PastorAIO: 10:29am On Aug 27, 2010 |
newmi: I just wan take laugh caress my mouth this morning. Don't mind me o. |
| Re: Joagbaje, Come And Answer Your Paul James Query. by Joagbaje(m): 10:44am On Aug 27, 2010 |
[size=16pt]I minus 2= -1[/size] [size=16pt]I minus 2= -1[/size] [size=16pt]I minus 2= -1[/size] |
| Re: Joagbaje, Come And Answer Your Paul James Query. by PastorAIO: 11:09am On Aug 27, 2010 |
Joagbaje: Clap for your sef. Okay, now we can promote you to the next class. |
| Re: Joagbaje, Come And Answer Your Paul James Query. by aletheia(m): 1:23pm On Aug 27, 2010 |
Challenged on this: #2. Did you or did you not claim that James and Paul taught two different gospels?You responded thus: Joagbaje:^Here is what you said. Joagbaje: Joagbaje: Joagbaje: |
| Re: Joagbaje, Come And Answer Your Paul James Query. by newmi(m): 1:30pm On Aug 27, 2010 |
Pastor AIO: Joagbaje:lol |
| Re: Joagbaje, Come And Answer Your Paul James Query. by TheClown: 2:19pm On Aug 27, 2010 |
I feel like crying. Very arrogant Christians who cannot give correct interpretation to the gospel but claims they know all, and above all, Rejecting facts even when written in black and white, infusing philosophies to go hand in hand with doctrines. And this is a more attractive form of Christianity! So sad.  Nairaland is quite revealing. |
| Re: Joagbaje, Come And Answer Your Paul James Query. by newmi(m): 2:26pm On Aug 27, 2010 |
The Clown: thank you very much, now somebody is sounding like there's hope for any sense coming out of this discuss. But now we have discovered the sorry state of christianity, we need[b] SOLUTIONS[/b]. And for me solution is in the form of all parties channelling their God-given energies towards those issues that are of paramount importance rather than dwelling on areas of minority concerns and that does not edify. |
| Re: Joagbaje, Come And Answer Your Paul James Query. by 5solas(m): 2:53pm On Aug 27, 2010 |
@KunleOshob. A wise man once said and I paraphrase, '' it shows the weakness of our position when we engage in insults rather than face issues''. 1 Like |
| Re: Joagbaje, Come And Answer Your Paul James Query. by KunleOshob(m): 3:34pm On Aug 27, 2010 |
5solas: I agree entirely with you, it is also unwise to comment on issues which we don't have a proper grasp of. |
| Re: Joagbaje, Come And Answer Your Paul James Query. by nuclearboy(m): 4:16pm On Aug 27, 2010 |
@Image123: I suggest you calm down and leave Joagbaje alone. If you continue, you will find out why I started getting so angry on NL. Soon you will get to that point if you allow this continue. These are people who have sold out totally and have lost conscience and decency @TheClown: Don't cry. Christ already told us they were coming. What matters is that they're not being allowed to go unchallenged. |
| Re: Joagbaje, Come And Answer Your Paul James Query. by 5solas(m): 4:21pm On Aug 27, 2010 |
@KunleOShob Very few have grasped the dinstinctions between faith and works and herein lies at least a half of the problem we have in the interpretation of the Word. You agree with Chukwudi then that : faith + works = salvation ? The place of works, that's the issue I was addressing. |
| Re: Joagbaje, Come And Answer Your Paul James Query. by aletheia(m): 6:44pm On Aug 27, 2010 |
@Joagbaje: Let's examine this statements of yours by the light of scripture Joagbaje:^Why is "apostle to the gentiles" an understatement? What scripture underpins this assertion? Joagbaje:"The apostle for the church" What does this mean? You try to paint a picture of Paul single-handedly establishing God's church. What were the other Apostles doing? What do the scriptures say? Ephesians 2:20. And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone; Be careful. Your eisegesis is leading you invent fanciful tales and confabulations that have no basis in the Bible. Joagbaje:^What do you mean by this vacuous statement? What is the church and who is the Christian man? God used Paul to set forth in detail His Glorious Plan of salvation but singling him out as the one who had the revelation of the church &c is untrue. You seem to be pointedly ignoring these verses that clearly show that James and Paul were both preaching the same consistent message: Matt 5:16. Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father which is in heaven.^Why don't you show us how the verses by Paul differ from those by James? |
| Re: Joagbaje, Come And Answer Your Paul James Query. by Nobody: 7:33pm On Aug 27, 2010 |
Joagbaje's fondness for Paul wants to make him commit the same kind of herey committed by Marcion of Sinope,aguably the greatest heretic in christian history.Marcion excised all other books of the bible except the Letters of st Paul and his own gospel called the gospel of marcion.He said Paul was the only Apopstle who understood Jesus. |
| Re: Joagbaje, Come And Answer Your Paul James Query. by Joagbaje(m): 6:11am On Aug 28, 2010 |
aletheia: If you study Daniel prophesy, we are in the 69th week out of the 70th week of Gods calendar.We are in the dispensation of the Gentiles , the Jews have been cut off from the light of God .This dispensation of the Gentiles will continue till the second coming of christ. So the Jews are not partakers of the package in christ. Paul was commissioned to bring the Gentiles in. But the Gentiles make the church. The Gentiles right now are the stewards of the mysteries in christ. The Jews still follow judaisim. Until the times of the gentiles will be over. So the church of christ is a gentile affair at the moment. .But the revelations of God to Paul is for the body of christ in general. You seem to be pointedly ignoring these verses that clearly show that James and Paul were both preaching the same consistent message:Matt 5:16. Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father which is in heaven. I believe in james principles. Faith without works is dead. But salvation and justification is by faith only , not by works . Because from the highlighted , that seems to be your point. You have to be saved first before your works are acceptable. You don't work for salvation. The scriptures you quoted are way off points. There are others that i had expected you to bring up such as. Philippians 2:12 12 Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling. |
| Re: Joagbaje, Come And Answer Your Paul James Query. by 5solas(m): 3:16pm On Aug 28, 2010 |
@All They are two errors we must continually guard against - the errors of the Pelegians and that of the Antinomians. It takes the descerning believer (not to mention grace!) to avoid the two. The former denies salvation by grace (while seeminly accepting it in its more subtle forms; semi-Pelegianism, Arminianism,e.t.c) The latter presumes that since justification is of grace and ultimately salvation also, therefore good works have no place in the life of the believer. If we are able to give good works their proper place in this thread at least, we would have resolved a lot of difficulties associated with faith, grace and works. The contradition between James and Paul does not infact exist. Paul taught that salvation was by grace and not by works while James taught that a saved person can be identified by the good works they do. Jesus said the same. I will end here for now. |
| Re: Joagbaje, Come And Answer Your Paul James Query. by aletheia(m): 3:53pm On Aug 28, 2010 |
Joagbaje:^If only you would let go of your presuppositions concerning James and really look at the verses I posted; you will see that Phil 2:12 is similar to the other verses. The confusion arises because we often fail to make the distinction between the "works of the Law" and the "works of faith"- a distinction that goes all the way back to the Garden of Eden. No man is justified or saved by the works of the Law, but all believers are commanded to bring forth works in keeping with faith. That is what both Paul and James wrote. And if you had completed the quote from Philippians, the full picture emerges: "For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure." |
| Re: Joagbaje, Come And Answer Your Paul James Query. by aletheia(m): 3:57pm On Aug 28, 2010 |
5solas:^I feel you. You actually state my position quite succinctly.  |
| Re: Joagbaje, Come And Answer Your Paul James Query. by Enigma(m): 5:16pm On Aug 28, 2010 |
Another point to note is in relation to an argument that some scholars have made in terms that when Paul said salvation is by faith/grace and not "works", he actually meant "works" in a sort of narrower sense i.e. works of the law. Thus we distinguish this from works in the sense of "good deeds" which Paul encouraged of course and the doing of which is what James said evidenced salvation by faith/grace. Again, in this sense, there would be no conflict between Paul and James. Paul is saying you are not saved by works of the law (things like "tithing", circumcision, ablutions, animal sacrifice etc); rather you are saved by faith/grace --- BUT make sure that you do good "works" in terms of good deeds, love, charity etc. James was saying: show me that you are saved by faith/grace by your "works" in terms of good deeds, love, charity etc. It is of course very easy to see how Paul's emphasis on a lack of necessity to follow the traditional Jewish observances (if the approach of works as "works of the law" is right) would readily appeal to Gentiles who would not need to go through the traditional Jewish rites in order to be admitted into the new faith. |
| Re: Joagbaje, Come And Answer Your Paul James Query. by Enigma(m): 5:45pm On Aug 28, 2010 |
Meanwhile, listen to the James that the ignorant Pasiiitor Joagbaje claims was advocating Judaism/the Jewish law: James 2:10 For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one [point], he is guilty of all. Does that sound like a man advocating the law; a man who knows no one can keep all the law and therefore is saying everyone trying to keep the law is guilty of all ----- because everyone will most probably offend in one point? Now, to see a microcosm of James' point that the recalcitrant like Joagbaje and the deceiver (like his boss) would refuse to see: James 2:21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar? On the face of it it seems James is saying Abraham was justified by works! However . . . James 2:22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect? Ah, I thought this James was talking about works, why is he now bringing faith into it? So it wasn't works afterall since works was an accessory that only served to make faith perfect? Maybe we should still follow him a bit more . . . James 2:23 And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God. But people are always quoting this verse to say that justification by faith is also even in the Old Testament? Yeah, I know; and I bet you thought it was written by Paul. Shame on you; it was written by the same James that they are accusing of preaching salvation by works! But didn't James also say in v. 24 that Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only. Yes he did; but do you think he is nullifying what he said before or contradicting himself? OK, let me show you the conclusion of his synthesis part of which synthesis is what you find in that verse 24. Hear him one more time . . . James 2:18 Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works. James 2:26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also. You now see what James is trying to communicate now: if we do not see your works, how can we know that you have faith? For me on the other hand you can look at my works to see my faith. In fact, if you bear in mind the words of Jesus himself you can put in proper context what James was saying. I can't help but throw one last dig at the Joagbajes of this world. They can not abide James because their doctrine is such that it makes them ultimately carnal and with no real intention to follow the teachings of Jesus. Their doctrine makes Christianity worthwhile only as long as they have something to gain e.g. the delusions of prosperity, of "divine health" and ultimately the delusion that they are not sinners. When James says show me your faith by your works --- how can Joagbaje observe that teaching when Joagabaje says his heroes (like the admitted homosexuals Ted haggard and Roberts Liardon) are greater than Elijah, than Moses, than Abraham, than Isaiah etc? How can they be interested in "works"? Why will they not turn against James whose words haunt them to convict them? |
| Re: Joagbaje, Come And Answer Your Paul James Query. by Enigma(m): 6:20pm On Aug 28, 2010 |
Just because some of Joagbaje's writing pisses me off so much: As I said above if there is something good to gain or some apparent profit, Joagbaje will support the person ---- he will even support the James that he is villifying here if James can be used/twisted to support his greed or delusion. See both Joagbaje's duplicity and delusional folly in full flow on the thread in following link: https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria/topic-393635.0.html Here he quotes James for support: Joagbaje: And again . . . Joagbaje: Now to his delusions: Joagbaje: (From one of the posts above citing James for support) Joagbaje: (It seems he also meant Isaiah here; it doesn't matter though as he has deliberately and specifically said same of Elijah, Moses and others elsewhere) Joagbaje: Joagbaje: The idea that a person who says these kind of things is a pastor is rather daft! Even dafter however is that some people are following him and looking up to him! Lord'a'mercy! |
| Re: Joagbaje, Come And Answer Your Paul James Query. by newmi(m): 9:05pm On Aug 28, 2010 |
Enigma: As much as l take no sides in this forum because taking sides with a man has always proven to be futile considering the fact that it is not in man to always remain constant, God is the only being thats a "constant" thus deserving of my allegience, l have always stressed in this forum that as much as you could disagree with another, nobody and l make bold to unequivocally say it again nobody is granted the luxiarious position of judging another and l think by now this scripture should have made some sense to our good interlectual minds Roman 14:4 Who art thou that judgest another man's servant? to his own master he standeth or falleth. Yea, he shall be holden up: for God is able to make him stand. never find yourself even attempting to taking God's place in judgement! |
| Re: Joagbaje, Come And Answer Your Paul James Query. by newmi(m): 9:42pm On Aug 28, 2010 |
You can never convert a man by aguement! ! ! This is a fact. your concern as a socratic and mature discussant is to take advantage of the golden opportunity to introduce your inputs and comments on issues of significant interest to you, satisfied with the fulfilment of having a platform to gladly share your thoughts and ideas with a much more wider scope of reference beyond even your imagination can possibly grasp. of what use is it, to spend precious time and energy trying to convince someone who has consciously accepted to be unpersuaded and refusing to humbly submit to the correction of a guniue and obvious truth though in deviance from their preconceived disposition. It is simply ludacris to attempt to do the impossible l would rather spend even a granulated fraction of a second of that time perhaps sleeping or taking a nap at least that would reguvinate by body. You can lead the horse to the river but you can't force her to drink, for all the reasonable contributors in this forum, wouldn't you rather invest your time like a business man rather than spending it trying to "force the horse to drink from the river" so these aguement, accussations and counter accussations isn't necessary, drop your well thought and pains-taken-to-draft contributions and anybody who doesn't agrees with it ok na him sa bi, lets move ahead and bear our minds on other issues of significant importance. Thank you well meaning NLanders. |
| Re: Joagbaje, Come And Answer Your Paul James Query. by Joagbaje(m): 9:57pm On Aug 28, 2010 |
Enigma: What's your point mister? I can quote any person, James , Elijah , Elisha,Moses etc. they were anointed men of God. I do quote from them in any way that they have been consistent with truth. I never deny the fact that James had great principles, but where he wasn't consistent with truth should still be pointed out. The fact remains : salvation is by faith ONLY without the deeds of the law. Justification is by faith only In christ there is no gentile nor Jew The idea that a person who says these kind of things is a pastor is rather daft! Even dafter however is that some people are following him and looking up to him!Lord'a'mercy! I never said I'm a pastor. I am just joagbaje. |
| Re: Joagbaje, Come And Answer Your Paul James Query. by Joagbaje(m): 9:58pm On Aug 28, 2010 |
Enigma: What's your point mister? I can quote any person, James , Elijah , Elisha,Moses etc. they were anointed men of God. I do quote from them in any way that they have been consistent with truth. I never deny the fact that James had great principles, but where he wasn't consistent with truth should still be pointed out. The fact remains : salvation is by faith ONLY without the deeds of the law. Justification is by faith only In christ there is no gentile nor Jew The idea that a person who says these kind of things is a pastor is rather daft! Even dafter however is that some people are following him and looking up to him!Lord'a'mercy! I never said I'm a pastor. I am just joagbaje. |
| Re: Joagbaje, Come And Answer Your Paul James Query. by Joagbaje(m): 10:17pm On Aug 28, 2010 |
Enigma: Revelation is progressive, I didn't condemn James as a person. Where he went wrong was pointed out. That didn't mean he never changed. We saw some adjustment he made in act 15. I understood the balance principles he advocated in some places but used wrong terminologies. |
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