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Stats: 2,380,048 members, 5,306,922 topics. Date: Sunday, 08 December 2019 at 03:16 PM
|Death? What Benefit? by sonmvayina(m): 1:03pm On May 14|
Often times when Christians approach people, their opening line is usually " do you know that jesus died for you".... You have to give your life to him... Bla Bla Bla... What is death and what is its benefit if any to our existence..
From the same Bible.. Death was the consequence of eating the fruit in the garden.. Maybe it was poisonous to human... But anyway it lead to death.. And God made the pronouncements "from dust you where made and to dust you shall return"... So that brings us to the beginning, what or who is man?
Same from the Bible and what is known and believed round the world, Man is a divine being(Gods breath) dwelling in a physical body made of dust as the bible puts it "and God breathed on his nostrils and man became a living soul"..
Death is simply the reverse of that process as the author of ecclesiastes puts it. In ecclesiastes chapter 12 vs 7,the body becomes dust and the spirit returns to God who gave it.. An the psalmist also says in psalm 104 vs 29-31.. Send forth your spirit and they are created take it and they die....so with this in mind.. What is the spiritual benefit of that to anybody If any..
Did jesus really die Did his body return to dust?....
Please somebody should put this is proper perspective for me... Thanks.
|Re: Death? What Benefit? by sonmvayina(m): 9:34pm On May 15|
What is the benefit of another man's death to the life of another,?
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|Re: Death? What Benefit? by budaatum: 9:50pm On May 15|
sonmvayina:Christians say that and expect you to believe it? Are they 12 years old, in fact, are you 12 years old?! How dare anyone insult your intelligence like that! I wonder if they open Bible and show you their sworn affidavit too, or do they pull "this book dropped from heaven" on you?
I think its a reflection of the Christians level. Only those who fall for that would use it on others. There's a lot more to Christ than "he died".
|Re: Death? What Benefit? by sonmvayina(m): 10:52pm On May 15|
WRT your last sentence, like what? Most of the teaching and words attributed to jesus was already known and thought by sages.. So what is unique about it?
|Re: Death? What Benefit? by budaatum: 12:32pm On May 17|
sonmvayina:A poll would show you many have not heard a single word attributed to Buddha or Confucius, or Sango even or Ogun. What's unique is most were not taught it till Jesus did or it was taught in his name.
|Re: Death? What Benefit? by sonmvayina(m): 5:56pm On Aug 09|
How is the death of a person benefit another person that is alive?
|Re: Death? What Benefit? by budaatum: 6:01pm On Aug 09|
sonmvayina:Can't say that I see that "the death of a person benefits another person that is alive". Though I can imagine scenarios. A mother giving her life for her child springs to mind, as does a soldier in the army in a battle.
Have you an answer to your question? Enlighten me please.
|Re: Death? What Benefit? by sonmvayina(m): 6:49pm On Aug 09|
Yes, I agree with you in that respect.. I wanted to understand the Christian stand on " jesus died to save us" mantra...
I don't see how somebody's misfortune in this case the death of a man save somebody else from sin..
From the passages I quoted, I. E psalm 104 I and ecclesiastes 12:7...at death, spirit returns to God who gave it and body back to earth from where it was taken...
Like, a son saying. "dad am back, earth is totally over rated.." I prefer staying with you..
So from that perspective, death is nothing.. Maybe an illusion..
|Re: Death? What Benefit? by budaatum: 7:56pm On Aug 09|
sonmvayina:We must thank Paul who elevated Jesus to his virgin birth and ressurected death or we might not have heard of him at all. But Jesus is much more than his birth and death and I doubt many Christians would consider his death a misfortune, or have you not read "for God so loved the world"?
Imagine a world that has not been influenced by Christianity and tell me what you see.
|Re: Death? What Benefit? by sonmvayina(m): 5:17pm On Nov 05|
Death was God's pronouncement on man, if Jesus was God, why did he have to?
|Re: Death? What Benefit? by RandomGuy48: 1:04am On Nov 06|
sonmvayina:If by why did he have to you mean what was the purpose of it, then the answer was that Jesus died in order to allow man to be reconciled to God again.
|Re: Death? What Benefit? by sonmvayina(m): 7:10am On Nov 06|
How is that different from my grandfather death?
|Re: Death? What Benefit? by sonmvayina(m): 7:11am On Nov 06|
Who ordered it.. Was it God's plan?.. But he commanded us "thou shall not kill"... Why should he be expecting a human sacrifice?
|Re: Death? What Benefit? by RandomGuy48: 7:04am On Nov 07|
sonmvayina:Your grandfather wasn't the Son of God.
sonmvayina:It was the Romans/Jews who ordered the execution itself but it was certainly within God's plan.
But he commanded us "thou shall not kill"..."Murder" is a better translation than kill. It's not perfect either--the Hebrew word in question doesn't have a perfect English equivalent--but it matches the modern meaning of the terms more accurately.
Why should he be expecting a human sacrifice?I'm not sure what you're asking here.
|Re: Death? What Benefit? by sonmvayina(m): 10:25am On Nov 07|
Amos 3 :7..says "God does nothing without first revealing it to his prophets"... Now my question is which of the prophet from Abraham to malachi did God reveal the idea that he had a son and secondly he was sending him to earth for humans to execute him as sacrifice for sin?... I need old testament quotes...
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|Re: Death? What Benefit? by RandomGuy48: 10:14pm On Nov 10|
sonmvayina:There is not a singular verse that explicitly expresses all of that, but there are various verses which, especially with the benefit of hindsight, together form such a picture scattered throughout the Old Testament.
The most obvious instances, of course, are the messianic prophecies of Isaiah 9:6 and Isaiah 53. The former refers to a son being born who shall be called (KJV) "Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace." Well that sure sounds like God. Isaiah 53 is self-explanatory.
|Re: Death? What Benefit? by sonmvayina(m): 7:43am On Nov 11|
Read those passages again, this time in context.. Isaiah already told you who the king was in his subsequent verses.. Isaiah 9%6 is about a king who the government will be on his shoulders.. And in his reign, there would be peace... He is referring to king Hezekiah.. His was mighty councillor, and a prince of peace.
Isaiah till already told you who the server to is in verse 41:8-9."iseael my servant, Jacob my chosen, as well as in chapter 45...there is no ambiguity there.. The suffering servant is Israel. Read it in context to the end for it is a discuss that started in 52:12..remember when Isaiah wrote there was no chapters or verses...
|Re: Death? What Benefit? by RandomGuy48: 12:47am On Nov 13|
An especially pertinent portion:
"[The claim that it was Hezekiah] is wildly off the mark when compared with the testimony of Tanach. The "child born to us" would carry "the authority on his shoulder", would "increase authority and peace without end", and finally would establish the throne and the kingdom of David "with justice and righteousness, from now until eternity" (including verse 7, 6 in Heb). It was indeed the position of Rashi that Hezekiah had fulfilled all this, although Rashi was forced to downgrade "from now until eternity" (מֵעַתָּה וְעַד־עוֹלָם) to the lifetime of Hezekiah. But even during Hezekiah's days, he suffered ridicule of his authority (2 Chron.30:10), interruptions to his peace (2 Chron.32), a devastating illness that nearly killed him (2 Kings 20), followed by a miracle that caused him a pride problem (2 Chron.32:24-26). He himself knew that his descendants would lose the throne and serve the king of Babylon (2 Kings 20:18, Isa.39:7). Last but not least, Hezekiah's own son, Menashe, was the farthest from "justice and righteousness" of any king of Judah; he corrupted Israel even more than the nations G-d had destroyed (2 Kings 21:9, 2 Chron.33:9), and according to the Talmudic sages (Sanh.90a) he has no portion in the world to come."
Another source covering similar ground:
Isaiah till already told you who the server to is in verse 41:8-9."iseael my servant, Jacob my chosen, as well as in chapter 45...there is no ambiguity there.. The suffering servant is Israel. Read it in context to the end for it is a discuss that started in 52:12..remember when Isaiah wrote there was no chapters or verses...The problem with the idea that it's a prophecy concerning Israel rather than the Messiah is that Jews long believed it was a Messianic prophecy. It's true that some held to the idea it could apply to other things in addition to the Messiah, but the idea that it isn't a Messiah prophecy at all is actually a relatively recent phenomenon. Again, see here:
"Suffice to say that even as late as the 16th century, those who completely denied the tradition of the suffering Messiah in Isaiah 53 were considered heretical. Here is a representative comment, by Rabbi Eliyyah de Vidas, author of Tana d’ be Eliyyahu (1575), attributing the teaching to Rabbi Shimon ben Yochai:
The meaning of the words “bruised for our iniquities” [Isaiah 53:5] is that since the Messiah bears our iniquities, which produce the effect of his being bruised, it follows that whoso will not admit that the Messiah thus suffers for our iniquities, must endure and suffer for them himself.
(Quoted and sourced in The 53rd Chapter of Isaiah according to Jewish Interpreters, A. Newbauer and S.R. Driver, p.xl; see also the abridged reprint of this work [Jerusalem: Keren Ahvah Meshihit, 2011], p.214)"
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