DeOTR:

Common man! It's a common knowledge that the original place known as Gehenna was a refuse dump outside Jerusalem. Its use to depict the Lake fire is never a mistake, so you can't replace Gehenna with "refuse dump" in this context because it's symbolic.

Yes you are correct! Gehenna is used as a symbol for something.
That thing is:
1. Gods refuse dump
2. A place where "the rejected souls" are put

Jesus never taught that it is a place of annihilation otherwise according to you, death is a sufficient form of unconscious state or termination of existence.

Jesus warned that it is better entering the kingdom of God battered here on earth than having everything on earth but loosing your soul in God's refuse dump.

Mar 9:43-48:
"And if your hand offend you, cut it off: it is better for you to enter into life maimed, than having two hands to go into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched: Where their worm dies not, and the fire is not quenched. And if your foot offend you, cut it off: it is better for you to enter halt into life, than having two feet to be cast into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched: Where their worm dies not, and the fire is not quenched. And if your eye offend you, pluck it out: it is better for you to enter into the kingdom of God with one eye, than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire : Where their worm dies not, and the fire is not quenched."

If HELL was just annihilation, the worst God can do isn't different from what man can do.
Luk 12:4-5:
"And I say to you my friends, Be not afraid of them that kill the body, and after that have no more that they can do. But I will forewarn you whom you shall fear: Fear him, which after he has killed has power to cast into hell; yes, I say to you, Fear him."

After God has killed, He has the power to cast the dead person into Hell!
Compare with:
After Man has killed, he has the power to bury the dead person in the ground!

As JWs, the two is exactly the same: then why should anyone fear God!

DeOTR:
@shadeyinka

You must understand that souls crying out to God under the alter are not literal souls. How about blood crying out to God from the ground?
The whole book of Revelation is loaded with symbolic languages. Those who died and are "crying out" to God under the altar symbolically shows John in prophetic vision, telling us that God WILL repay for the actions of the wicked. The dead know nothing, as Ecclesiastes 9:5 confirms.
Notice what the Bible says about the rich man. It says that he was "buried and being in HELL lifted up his eyes". Do you see the clear connection between buried and hell. Jesus is linking the two and saying that the rich man IN HIS GRAVE IS IN HELL. And don't forget that this passage is a parable depicting the Pharisees and the Gentiles? It has absolutely nothing to do with Jesus teaching immortal souls doctrine.

Let's look at the Scripture again:

Rev 6:9-11:
"And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held: And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, do you not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth? And white robes were given to every one of them; and it was said to them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellow servants also and their brothers, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled."


1. If they were not literal souls, how about their fellow brethren who are yet to be killed: are those ones also symbolic?
2. If they were not literal souls, how about those who dwell on the earth: are those ones also symbolic?
3. If the souls were symbolic, what is the meaning of "white robes were given unto them"? : they are supposed to be unconscious and non-existent!

You keep on hammering on Ecclesiastes 9:5 without looking at the context. The context is "A Corpse feel Nothing"! And this is very correct.

Let me also give you an example how you JWs misuse Ecc9:5
Suppose I say Resurection doesn't exist because

Job 14:14:
"If a man die, shall he live again? all the days of my appointed time will I wait, till my change come."

Would that be correct?

The whole of the old testament never spoke about several things which we only knew at the time of Jesus. e.g. Demons and Deliverance, Spiritual Death, Hades/Tartarus/Gehenna, second Death, Spiritual Death etc

Would you agree that a Spiritually Dead person knows nothing?
If a spiritually dead person knows nothing, then no one can be saved because we were all formally dead spiritually.

Ephesians 2:1-3
And you He made alive, who were dead in trespasses and sins in which you once lived, following the course of this world, following the ruler of the power of the air, the spirit that is now at work among those who are disobedient. All of us once lived among them in the passions of our flesh, following the desires of flesh and senses, and we were by nature children of wrath, like everyone else


Dan 12:2:
"And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt."

Do you think an unconscious person can feel any shame?

DeOTR:

What is Man Exactly? How Was he Created by God?
Genesis 2:7 (NKJV)...'And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living being.'

Genesis 2:7 (KJV) ...'And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.'
Notice we became living souls, not given souls?
You also noticed living souls mean living beings?
If we're living souls, doesn't that tell you there's nothing like immortal souls that outlive man?

When God created Animals, they also breathe air. Do you think humans breath because of a physical breath from God?

The Difference between humans and animals is exactly what God did so that man became an eternal soul (living soul). It is the Spirit of God that did this. Man became a spirit being on the day God breathed into him.

When God created man, man was already a soul just like the animals: it took the breath of the Spirit of God to make man a living soul (eternal/ spirit personality)

That is why God said:

Gen 2:17:
"But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, you shall not eat of it: for in the day that you eat thereof you shall surely die."

On the day you eat, to shall die!
Did Adam and Eve die (on the day the ate of the tree?
Yes, they did!
For the Scriptures describe three kinds of death.
1. Physical Death
2. Spiritual Death
3. Second Death

Living soul could mean
1. Soul : Person
2. Soul: The inner you which make you have a Will, Emotion and Intelect/Intelligence.
3. Soul: Everything that has life

DeOTR:

Can a soul die?
Revelation 16:3 ...'And the second angel poured out his vial upon the sea; and it became as the blood of a dead man: and every living soul died in the sea.' ... The NKJV says "living creature".

Ezekiel 18:20 ...'The soul who sins shall die.'
From that verse in Genesis, the equation of life is:
Dust (body) + breath of life (spirit) = Man/Soul.
And what happens when we die?
Ecclesiastes 12:7 ...'Then the dust will return to the earth as it was, And the spirit will return to God who gave it.'

Do the scriptures actually say that all righteous people instantly "go to Heaven" when they die?

John 5:28,29 ...'Do not marvel at this; for the hour is coming in which all who are in the graves will hear His voice and come forth-those who have done good, to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of condemnation.'

Even David has not ascended into heaven..
Acts 2:29,34 ...'Men and brethren, let me speak freely to you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his tomb is with us to this day ... For David did not ascend into the heavens.'



How does the Bible view death?

Job 14:10-12 ...'But man dieth, and wasteth away: yea, man giveth up the ghost, and where is he? As the waters fail from the sea, and the flood decayeth and drieth up: So man lieth down, and riseth not: till the heavens be no more, they shall not awake, nor be raised out of their sleep.' ...
This is a pretty clear Bible verse about death and what happens when we die. Where is man after the Spirit of God leaves him? He returns to the ground and doesn't arise until when? "till the heavens be no more". When will the heavens be no more?
When Christ Jesus returns at the second coming and resurrects His people. Now Job describes death in an interesting way. He says that we will "sleep" when we die. Who else taught the meaning of death in that way? JESUS!!

Matthew 9:24 ...'He said unto them, Give place: for the maid is not dead, but sleepeth. And they laughed him to scorn.'

John 11:11-14 ...'These things said he: and after that he saith unto them, Our friend Lazarus sleepeth; but I go, that I may awake him out of sleep. Then said his disciples, Lord, if he sleep, he shall do well. Howbeit Jesus spake of his death: but they thought that he had spoken of taking of rest in sleep. Then said Jesus unto them plainly, Lazarus is dead.'

So Jesus spoke of death as sleeping. Not about going to heaven or hell when we die, but sleeping.
And until when do we sleep in the grave?
Martha knew the answer ... John 11:23-24 ...'Jesus saith unto her, Thy brother shall rise again. Martha saith unto him, know that he shall rise again in the resurrection at the last day.' ...

The dust of the earth, or grave, is our home until the resurrection at the second coming of Christ Jesus. The prophet Daniel also confirmed this Bible truth ...

Daniel 12:2 ...'And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.'

Matthew 27:52 ...'And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose.' ... At Jesus' resurrection He gave gifts to some and resurrected them also from the dead.
But what were they doing before they were resurrected by Jesus?
They were sleeping. In other words they were in their graves not knowing anything, awaiting the resurrection.
It's even simple logic. You die and you decompose. The Bible truth is as simple as ABC. The earlier we accept it the better.
The whole point of the death and resurrection of Jesus is defeated if people don't actually died as you believe.
Why will Jesus come back again if everyone receives their rewards right after death? What's special about Jesus's death and resurrection if we can all live on just immediately after we die?
Who are those that would be raised up to meet Jesus in the sky from their graves at the last trump if they're already in heaven?
See! Satan is a confusionist and yes, immortal soul doctrine has root in paganism.

What is death?
Death is not a complete cessation of life and unconscious state but a Disconnection/Separation!
Let me apply this to the kinds of death in the Scriptures!
1. Physical Death:
Disconnection/Separation between the union of a person/animals Body from His Soul
2. Spiritual Death:
Disconnection/Separation between the union of a persons spirit and God
3. Second Death:
Eternal Disconnection/Separation between the union of a persons Body, Soul and Spirit from God

Apply your own definition of death to these three form of death and see if it makes sense.

God intended man to be physical hence the need for resurrection.

Jesus said: God isn't the God of the dead but of the living.
Mar 12:27
: "He is not the God of the dead, but the God of the living: you therefore do greatly err."
The soul of a person doesn't die with physical death. It goes back to God the giver of life.

The Bible not pagan idea showed us that man is a triune being

1Ths 5:23:
"And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; [/b]and I pray God your whole [b]spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless to the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ."

The Thief asked Jesus to remember him and Jesus said:

Luk 23:42-43:
"And he said to Jesus, Lord, remember me when you come into your kingdom. And Jesus said to him, Truly I say to you, To day shall you[b] be with me in paradise."
[/b]
Paradise isn't the grave. It is the place where righteous souls went. Hence the soul doesn't terminate with Physical death.


Jesus taught that the soul survives physical death

Luk 16:22-24:
"And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried; And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and sees Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom. And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame."


Interestingly, the fact that Jesus called the dead "sleeping" is a proof that they are not dead for if you used a pin on a dead person, he wouldn't know anything but not so for a sleeping person.

shadeyinka:

You believe that Jesus had a spiritual body and yet you are so dumb that you insist that a man has only physical bodies.

Spiritual body comes after ressurection . Relax
1 Cor 15:44, Jesus ressurect to have that

If Jesus stated that the rich man was buried, how come he could still speak and feel torment?

When satan makes people blind, you wonder the depth of such blindness!

The same reason why Lazarus corpse was carried by angels , yet such doesn't happen today. The story isn't real .

The rich man was present bodily too, do such occur today ? Do people dissapear with their body to your fictional hell ? Use your BRAIN

shadeyinka:

So according to you, Jesus was referring to the physical gehenna.

Read the Scripture again:


Mar 9:43-48:
"And if your hand offend you, cut it off: it is better for you to enter into life maimed, than having two hands to go into hell the municipal refuse dump , into the fire that never shall be quenched: Where their worm dies not, and the fire is not quenched. And if your foot offend you, cut it off: it is better for you to enter into life, than having two feet to be cast into hell the municipal refuse dump , into the fire that never shall be quenched: Where their worm dies not, and the fire is not quenched. And if your eye offend you, pluck it out: it is better for you to enter into the kingdom of God with one eye, than having two eyes to be cast into hell the municipal refuse dump fire: Where their worm dies not, and the fire is not quenched."

Read this and comprehend!
1. Jesus was comparing the kingdom of God with the judgement of Hell
2. If Jesus was speaking about the literal gehenna, this Scripture wouldn't make any sense
3. If Jesus was was speaking about live people being thrown into hell.

How satan has so blinded you.!?

Is it dead unconscious people who enter heaven?
If it is then, we can expect dead unconscious people who enter hell?

Are human two hands and feet thrown into Gehenna into Jesus day ? Yeah it make perfect sense



Jesus never speak of Living people in Gehenna , no wonder you are gasping to answer if human bodies go to hell presently .

Am thinking of how to help you, Your case is a pathetic one.

shadeyinka:

You will note that even though these people were dead, they still had their bodies (spiritual bodies) for which white robes were given to them.
If the Rich man was BURIED according to Jesus, I presume that JWs came to exhume the corpse so that he can be physically thrown into gehenna!? SMH!

Nobody has a spiritual body Until Ressurection . 1 Cor 15:44,46 . what is physical is first.

Ressurection hasn't happen. Relax

Rev 6:9-11:
"And when he had opened the fifth seal , I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held: And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, do you not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth? And white robes were given to every one of them; and it was said to them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellow servants also and their brothers, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled."

Can you explain in the Scripture above how the dead unconscious people spoke and were given White robes?

The seals are ILLUSTRATIONS. Even Stars fall inside the earth , Hades walk , and death rides a horse . in each of these seals., do you believe this are Real too?

Receive sense

shadeyinka:

Let's look at the Scripture again:

Rev 6:9-11:
"And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held: And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, do you not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth? And white robes were given to every one of them; and it was said to them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellow servants also and their brothers, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled."


1. If they were not literal souls, how about their fellow brethren who are yet to be killed: are those ones also symbolic?
2. If they were not literal souls, how about those who dwell on the earth: are those ones also symbolic?
3. If the souls were symbolic, what is the meaning of "white robes were given unto them"? : they are supposed to be unconscious and non-existent!

The souls under the alter of God are symbolic, not literal. So you seriously think souls of the dead live under an alter in heaven? Is that your own idea of after life? I am to explain how a blood can cry from the ground.
Since the blood of Abel crying from the ground and the souls of the Martyrs crying to God sound literal to you, please explain that of the blood too.

You keep on hammering on Ecclesiastes 9:5 without looking at the context. The context is "A Corpse feel Nothing"! And this is very correct.

Let me also give you an example how you JWs misuse Ecc9:5
Suppose I say Resurection doesn't exist because

Job 14:14:
"If a man die, shall he live again? all the days of my appointed time will I wait, till my change come."

Would that be correct?

No one is saying resurrection doesn't exist, but it's not immediately after death. This verse further buttress the fact that the dead are lying in wait for the second coming of Christ. Isn't that what the Bible says?

The whole of the old testament never spoke about several things which we only knew at the time of Jesus. e.g. Demons and Deliverance, Spiritual Death, Hades/Tartarus/Gehenna, second Death, Spiritual Death etc

Would you agree that a Spiritually Dead person knows nothing?
If a spiritually dead person knows nothing, then no one can be saved because we were all formally dead spiritually.

Ephesians 2:1-3
And you He made alive, who were dead in trespasses and sins in which you once lived, following the course of this world, following the ruler of the power of the air, the spirit that is now at work among those who are disobedient. All of us once lived among them in the passions of our flesh, following the desires of flesh and senses, and we were by nature children of wrath, like everyone else

This is what you call spiritual death?
Well, if by spiritual death you are mean being disconnected from God through sin, that's correct, but there's nothing here that suggests a spirit inside you died.

Dan 12:2:
"And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt."

Do you think an unconscious person can feel any shame?

Read again, those who feel the shame were also resurrected just like those resurrected to everlasting life. They can't be said to be dead again since they've woken up.

When God created Animals, they also breathe air. Do you think humans breath because of a physical breath from God?

The Difference between humans and animals is exactly what God did so that man became an eternal soul (living soul). It is the Spirit of God that did this. Man became a spirit being on the day God breathed into him.

When God created man, man was already a soul just like the animals: it took the breath of the Spirit of God to make man a living soul (eternal/ spirit personality)

This is purely your personal opinion, not from the Bible. You read it from the passage that man was formed out of the dust and when God animated him by His breath, he became a living soul. How now you think he already became a soul already before receiving the breath of God is beyond me.
You see? By your teaching man is already living even before becoming a living soul, but as you can see, the Bible disagees with that.

That is why God said:

Gen 2:17:
"But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, you shall not eat of it: for in the day that you eat thereof you shall surely die."

On the day you eat, to shall die!
Did Adam and Eve die (on the day the ate of the tree?
Yes, they did!
For the Scriptures describe three kinds of death.
1. Physical Death
2. Spiritual Death
3. Second Death

Living soul could mean
1. Soul : Person
2. Soul: The inner you which make you have a Will, Emotion and Intelect/Intelligence.
3. Soul: Everything that has life

That number two doesn't follow. Our brains gave us our intelligence and emotions. That's why human brains are bigger. We're created to be rational beings, and this has nothing to do with any unseen inner soul.

What is death?
Death is not a complete cessation of life and unconscious state but a Disconnection/Separation!
Let me apply this to the kinds of death in the Scriptures!
1. Physical Death:
Disconnection/Separation between the union of a person/animals Body from His Soul
2. Spiritual Death:
Disconnection/Separation between the union of a persons spirit and God
3. Second Death:
Eternal Disconnection/Separation between the union of a persons Body, Soul and Spirit from God

Apply your own definition of death to these three form of death and see if it makes sense.

God intended man to be physical hence the need for resurrection.

Why would God intended for man to be physical yet created an unseen soul?

Jesus said: God isn't the God of the dead but of the living.
Mar 12:27
: "He is not the God of the dead, but the God of the living: you therefore do greatly err."
The soul of a person doesn't die with physical death. It goes back to God the giver of life.

The Bible not pagan idea showed us that man is a triune being

1Ths 5:23:
"And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; [/b]and I pray God your whole [b]spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless to the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ."

The Thief asked Jesus to remember him and Jesus said:

Luk 23:42-43:
"And he said to Jesus, Lord, remember me when you come into your kingdom. And Jesus said to him, Truly I say to you, To day shall you[b] be with me in paradise."
[/b]
Paradise isn't the grave. It is the place where righteous souls went. Hence the soul doesn't terminate with Physical death.


Jesus taught that the soul survives physical death

Luk 16:22-24:
"And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried; And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and sees Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom. And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame."


Interestingly, the fact that Jesus called the dead "sleeping" is a proof that they are not dead for if you used a pin on a dead person, he wouldn't know anything but not so for a sleeping person.

I'll touch this later.
But you know that the sleep that we're talking about, those they're sleeping will only wake up at the last day?
By sleep, it means the death is temporary. The second death is the permanent death and the effect is everlasting. That's the import of using sleep.

OLAADEGBU:


I did not say spiritual body. I said spirit body, there is a difference

Don't worry, u will meet your Head ache below

. The word hell here in the Greek is called Hades, it means "the unseen world."

"And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and sees Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom" (Luke 16:23).

Sinners go to a place of conscious torment where they know each other after death. You can see from this verse that the rich man did not lose his identity after death he could recognise Abraham and Lazarus.

The rich man has Eyes and Tongue, are thses spirit or flesh ?

Death is separation, it neither means extinction nor annihilation as you have been led to believe. There is a second death, which is spiritual death and it means eternal separation from God. At physical death the body becomes lifeless because the person's spirit has moved out. The body is put into the grave and the elements return to the dust.

"...for dust thou art, and unto dust shalt thou return" (Genesis 3:19).

This is further proof that death means separation.

Spirit RETURN to God ! Fine.

When Jesus died and his spirit return, Was he in heaven that day ?

Cc: Barristt07

It will help us to understand that Sheol or Hades as you will like to call it is actually divided into 2 compartments: The first one is paradise (Abraham's Bosom) and the other is the place of torment described above.

When did the bosom of Abraham became Paradise ? Are u just deliberately lying



The scripture never said Sheol is divided into two places.

Paradise was emptied when our Lord Jesus Christ took the OT believers to heaven.

Where did it say Paradise was emptied?

The place of torment will deliver up the lost for judgment at the Great White Throne. All those who stand in judgment are lost and will be cast into the lake of fire, which is the second death.

That is the difference between eternal life and eternal death (separation). I hope that I have not succeeded in annoying you.

Hades hasn't empty anyone. rev 20:13

Even those in the sea are not in Your hell. Why ? Yeye

shadeyinka:

I wonder what would happen at death when they see that even though they are dead, yet they can still feel, reason and have emotions.

They feel humans are so valuable that God cannot forget some of them in his prison. Why should anyone fear God if the worst man can do is also the worst God can do to man

Only the living, move and exist - Act 17 vs 28

It has been quoted previously here

Jozzy4:


Spiritual body comes after ressurection . Relax
1 Cor 15:44, Jesus ressurect to have that



The same reason why Lazarus corpse was carried by angels , yet such doesn't happen today. The story isn't real .

The rich man was present bodily too, do such occur today ? Do people dissapear with their body to your fictional hell ? Use your BRAIN

Lazarus corpse wasn't carried by angels. Lazarus soul/spirit was. Lazarus body probay never got any decent burial because he was a begged.

Every human being is both a Body and a Spirit.
1Ths 5:23:
"And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless to the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ."

Jozzy4:


Are human two hands and feet thrown into Gehenna into Jesus day ? Yeah it make perfect sense



Jesus never speak of Living people in Gehenna , no wonder you are gasping to answer if human bodies go to hell presently .

Mar 9:43-48:
"And if your hand offend you, cut it off: it is better for you to enter into life maimed, than having two hands to go into hell the municipal refuse dump , into the fire that never shall be quenched: Where their worm dies not, and the fire is not quenched. And if your foot offend you, cut it off: it is better for you to enter into life, than having two feet to be cast into hell the municipal refuse dump , into the fire that never shall be quenched: Where their worm dies not, and the fire is not quenched. And if your eye offend you, pluck it out: it is better for you to enter into the kingdom of God with one eye, than having two eyes [/b]to be cast into hell the municipal refuse dump fire: Where their worm dies not, and the fire is not quenched."


Where did the bible say people hands and legs are thrown into gehenna? The Scripture is about [b]YOU having your members complete not about arms and legs.

Except your comprehension is at kindergarten level would you see it as you have seen it!

Abraham wasn't Physical was he?
If Abraham isn't Physical but still alive, what make you think the Scriptures was refering to Physical Lazarus?

Jozzy4:
Am thinking of how to help you, Your case is a pathetic one.




Nobody has a spiritual body Until Ressurection . 1 Cor 15:44,46 . what is physical is first.

Ressurection hasn't happen. Relax



The seals are ILLUSTRATIONS. Even Stars fall inside the earth , Hades walk , and death rides a horse . in each of these seals., do you believe this are Real too?

Receive sense

If you believe that the Scripture
Rev 6:9-11:
"And when he had opened the fifth seal , I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held: And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, do you not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth? And white robes were given to every one of them; and it was said to them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellow servants also and their brothers, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled."

Is 100% symbolic, would you please explain the symbolic meaning of
1. Those who were slain?
2. What it meant by "they cried with a loud voice"?
3. Told to rest a little while?
4. Given white robes?
5. The fellow brothers that should be killed on the earth?
6. Those who dwell on the earth.

If you cannot, keep quiet and stop preaching heresies!

DeOTR:

The souls under the alter of God are symbolic, not literal. So you seriously think souls of the dead live under an alter in heaven? Is that your own idea of after life? I am to explain how a blood can cry from the ground.
Since the blood of Abel crying from the ground and the souls of the Martyrs crying to God sound literal to you, please explain that of the blood too.


No one is saying resurrection doesn't exist, but it's not immediately after death. This verse further buttress the fact that the dead are lying in wait for the second coming of Christ. Isn't that what the Bible says?


This is what you call spiritual death?
Well, if by spiritual death you are mean being disconnected from God through sin, that's correct, but there's nothing here that suggests a spirit inside you died.


Read again, those who feel the shame were also resurrected just like those resurrected to everlasting life. They can't be said to be dead again since they've woken up.




This is purely your personal opinion, not from the Bible. You read it from the passage that man was formed out of the dust and when God animated him by His breath, he became a living soul. How now you think he already became a soul already before receiving the breath of God is beyond me.
You see? By your teaching man is already living even before becoming a living soul, but as you can see, the Bible disagees with that.


That number two doesn't follow. Our brains gave us our intelligence and emotions. That's why human brains are bigger. We're created to be rational beings, and this has nothing to do with any unseen inner soul.


Why would God intended for man to be physical yet created an unseen soul?

I'll touch this later.
But you know that the sleep that we're talking about, those they're sleeping will only wake up at the last day?
By sleep, it means the death is temporary. The second death is the permanent death and the effect is everlasting. That's the import of using sleep.

If angels and demons can exist without physical brains, your brain isn't important except in the Physical world.

You can see that your definition of death does not fit into physical, spiritual and second death. Death to you is a form of annihilation isn't it? For me, death is a Disconnection/Separation

Sleep means they are NOT dead but living Just like Abraham and Lazarus
Mat 22:32:
"I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob? God is not the God of the dead, but of the living."

Luk 20:38: "For he is not a God of the dead, but of the living: for all live to him."

Jozzy4:


Only the living, move and exist - Act 17 vs 28

It has been quoted previously here

If Angels need no bodies to exist, what do you think happens to humans.

I don't know why you always misquote and misapply Scriptures

Acts 17:28:
"For in him we live, and move, and have our being; as certain also of your own poets have said, For we are also his offspring."

In God we live and move and have our being is what the Scripture is saying

shadeyinka:

If Angels need no bodies to exist, what do you think happens to humans.

Angels have spiritual bodies. Like the heavenly one, so are those who belong to heaven .

I don't know why you always misquote and misapply Scriptures

Acts 17:28:
"For in him we live , and move, and have our being; as certain also of your own poets have said, For we are also his offspring."

In God we live and move and have our being is what the Scripture is saying

To move and have our being ( Exist) the Red is important. , That's the opposite of death.

shadeyinka:


If you believe that the Scripture
Rev 6:9-11:
"And when he had opened the fifth seal , I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held: And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, do you not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth? And white robes were given to every one of them; and it was said to them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellow servants also and their brothers, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled."

Is 100% symbolic, would you please explain the symbolic meaning of
1. Those who were slain?
2. What it meant by "they cried with a loud voice"?
3. Told to rest a little while?
4. Given white robes?
5. The fellow brothers that should be killed on the earth?
6. Those who dwell on the earth.

If you cannot, keep quiet and stop preaching heresies!

I can't spoon feed you, If you do not believe the other seals where Death rides horse, Stars fell on earth are Real. Shut your mouth.

shadeyinka:


Mar 9:43-48:
"And if your hand offend you, cut it off: it is better for you to enter into life maimed, than having two hands to go into hell the municipal refuse dump , into the fire that never shall be quenched: Where their worm dies not, and the fire is not quenched. And if your foot offend you, cut it off: it is better for you to enter into life , than having two feet to be cast into hell the municipal refuse dump , into the fire that never shall be quenched: Where their worm dies not, and the fire is not quenched. And if your eye offend you, pluck it out: it is better for you to enter into the kingdom of God with one eye, than having two eyes [/b]to be cast into hell the municipal refuse dump fire: Where their worm dies not, and the fire is not quenched."


Where did the bible say people hands and legs are thrown into gehenna? The Scripture is about [b]YOU having your members complete not about arms and legs.

Except your comprehension is at kindergarten level would you see it as you have seen it!

Look at the red, Hands and feet casted into Gehenna. That's what Jesus pronounced.

Your silly sef said hell is correct, Then Has any corpse disappeared to hell with their body ?

Abraham wasn't Physical was he?
If Abraham isn't Physical but still alive, what make you think the Scriptures was refering to Physical Lazarus?

Was Lazarus buried ? What happen to his body?

You don't have sense

Shadeyinka
Abraham wasn't Physical was he?
If Abraham isn't Physical but still alive, what make you think the Scriptures was refering to Physical Lazarus?

He can dip his fingers in Physical water which us meant to cool the tongue of physical beings. Wasn't even buried, but his corpse carried by angels . This is where you will get your neck hanged. How many such have you seen happen ?

OLAADEGBU

OLAADEGBU:


I did not say spiritual body. I said spirit body, there is a difference.

highlight the difference ?

The word hell here in the Greek is called Hades, it means "the unseen world."

"And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and sees Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom" (Luke 16:23).

Sinners go to a place of conscious torment where they know each other after death. You can see from this verse that the rich man did not lose his identity after death he could recognise Abraham and Lazarus.

Does it escape your notice that the rich man was present with his physical body, Eyes, Tongue, could drink water ?

Is that what you preach today about those in hell ?

Death is separation, it neither means extinction nor annihilation as you have been led to believe.

Extinction means something doesn't exist anymore. According to Act 17:38 , Only we the living move and EXIST. Does that not expose your bias and lies ?

If something lives or still exist in whatever form, its still alive.

There is a second death, which is spiritual death and it means eternal separation from God. At physical death the body becomes lifeless because the person's spirit has moved out. The body is put into the grave and the elements return to the dust.

"...for dust thou art, and unto dust shalt thou return" (Genesis 3:19).

This is further proof that death means separation.

That verse said every spirit, which means either winner or righteous returns to God. Where ? Your postulation would mean even sinners went to heaven .

It will help us to understand that Sheol or Hades as you will like to call it is actually divided into 2 compartments:

Human tradition say so! Not scripture

The first one is paradise (Abraham's Bosom) and the other is the place of torment described above.

How did you equate the bosom chest of one man into paradise ?

Paradise was emptied when our Lord Jesus Christ took the OT believers to heaven. The place of torment will deliver up the lost for judgment at the Great White Throne. All those who stand in judgment are lost and will be cast into the lake of fire, which is the second death.

Sheol hasn't release any dead person, is Revelation 20:13 missing in your Bible ?

That is the difference between eternal life and eternal death (separation). I hope that I have not succeeded in annoying you.

Separation? The question is Are they not in existence ?
When someone still exist, they are alive. You can give your eternal death as separation but alive to your gullible friends. No sensible person would buy that from you.

Jozzy4:


Haywizzy007 , Barristter07 , janosky

Sheol is the same as Hades !!!

Olaadegbu, you are a disgrace .

That's not even a spiritual body, a spiritual body doesn't taste PHYSICAL water . its a physical body.

You are now in a big trouble

I saw that rubbish post, olaadegbu probably forgotten both Sheol and Hades are the same

Jozzy4:


Jesus therefore proved Gehenna isn't hellfire, No living being are thrown there but unconscious bodies. No wonder Jesus make reference to body in Gehenna

Does Body go to your fictional hell ? That should have restored your factory setting that Jesus didn't have such in mind.



Worms? Lolzzzzzz, are this worms spirit or physical ? Because I know worms exist in Gehenna and they are physical fleshly worms,

Do worms exist in your fiction hell ? Cc: Barristter07 come and see something

I saw it, the level of ignorance on this thread is alarming, Shadeyinka, are this worms physical or spiritual , do worms have spirits too ? Its getting interesting you can google the picture of worms for better comprehension before you reply

shadeyinka:

Are you saying Sheol is Gehenna?

Sheol isn't Gehenna , if you agree, rendering both as Hell is a wrong translation . Because they carry different meaning. Sheol isn't a literal place, no such spacious place exist in the universe ( Isa 5;14) but refers to a condition of been dead . Gehenna is a place outside ancient Jerusalem, no living beings are thrown there. So Jesus wasn't teaching something God said has never come to his mind which is burning people in fire - Jer 7:31. But those in Sheol ( Mankind Grave) will be ressurected : Rev 20:13

Any corpse thrown into Gehenna is viewed by the Jews as unworthy of a burial and a Ressurection. So Gehenna becomes a symbol of anyone God would not ressurect.

But their body isn't in hell right Now , is it ?

Jesus : Body and soul in hell

ALBHAGDADI : No, soul alone in hell

Why fighting your Lord ?

alBHAGDADI:


Since their soul and body are in hell getting burnt, which shows they are weak, then you can't say they have eternal life which is characterized by a spiritual body not prone to getting burnt.

Now you are bringing various aLBHAGDADI ideas,

Its not called " weak life " . Point of correction. For them to get burnt, are they alive ? And for how many years ?

Answer that two question , to see if they have eternal life or not.

DeOTR:

The souls under the alter of God are symbolic, not literal. So you seriously think souls of the dead live under an alter in heaven? Is that your own idea of after life? I am to explain how a blood can cry from the ground.
Since the blood of Abel crying from the ground and the souls of the Martyrs crying to God sound literal to you, please explain that of the blood too.

We know that the book of Revelation is partly literal and partly symbolic. If you claim a part is literal it should be justified, if symbolic, it should also be justified and if a mixture, it should be justified.

Hence,
If the souls in question are symbolic, apply it to answer:

Is 100% symbolic, would you please explain the symbolic meaning of
1. Those who were slain?
2. What it meant by "they cried with a loud voice"?
3. Told to rest a little while?
4. Given white robes?
5. The fellow brothers that should be killed on the earth?
6. Those who dwell on the earth.

DeOTR:

No one is saying resurrection doesn't exist, but it's not immediately after death. This verse further buttress the fact that the dead are lying in wait for the second coming of Christ. Isn't that what the Bible says?

Job doesn't seem to agree with that!
Job is saying death is permanent. He doesn't even give any hope of Resurection.
What is the lesson here:
Don't build Doctrine through a single text of the OLD testament for you will arrive at a wrong interpretation just like

Eccl 9:5:
"For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten."
Even Exclusive 9:5 seem to preclude the possibility of any Resurection of the dead.

DeOTR:

This is what you call spiritual death?
Well, if by spiritual death you are mean being disconnected from God through sin, that's correct, but there's nothing here that suggests a spirit inside you died.

Of course death is a Disconnection/Separation NOT a termination/annihilation. That is why the word Disconnection/Separation can be used within the context of every form of death in the Scriptures and still make sense.

Spiritual death doesn't mean the spirit of man become DEAD (terminated/annihilated) but DISCONNECTED/SEPARATED from God because of SIN

DeOTR:

Read again, those who feel the shame were also resurrected just like those resurrected to everlasting life. They can't be said to be dead again since they've woken up.

You are still looking at death from the point of view of termination/annihilation and not Disconnection.

The purpose of Resurection is to return man to the state in which he was created: a glorified physical being not simply a spirit being.

The evil were woken up to everlasting SHAME! If the second death annihilated them, their shame cannot be said to be everlasting.

Do you agree with my definition of death?
Do you think it breaks down in application?

DeOTR:

This is purely your personal opinion, not from the Bible. You read it from the passage that man was formed out of the dust and when God animated him by His breath, he became a living soul. How now you think he already became a soul already before receiving the breath of God is beyond me.
You see? By your teaching man is already living even before becoming a living soul, but as you can see, the Bible disagees with that.

That number two doesn't follow. Our brains gave us our intelligence and emotions. That's why human brains are bigger. We're created to be rational beings, and this has nothing to do with any unseen inner soul.

Why would God intended for man to be physical yet created an unseen soul?

I'll touch this later.
But you know that the sleep that we're talking about, those they're sleeping will only wake up at the last day?
By sleep, it means the death is temporary. The second death is the permanent death and the effect is everlasting. That's the import of using sleep.

It doesn't dawn on you that the Brain is just the physical hardware on which our soul/spirit operates.

When you say:
"I am happy", who are you referring to? Is it your Body or the You who lives inside your Body?

I actually find it a little amusing with you guys for the reason that
1. You believe that miracles have ceased to be (because Jesus doesn't use you for anything supernatural)
2. At the same time, you believe that satan is still operating through some people by performing "spectacular miracles"
3. So that, whenever you see something out of the ordinary, you attribute it it satan even when you know it was done in Jesus name.

Your wrong doctrines is what has limited you permanently to the earthly.

If with everything you teach and believe, we can also see apart from good character the evidence that Christ has commissioned you to serve him in Preaching, Healing and Deliverance of people from Demonic affliction, we can take you a little serious.

Or why do you think Jesus stopped using JWs for Healing and Deliverance but use other Christians?

alBHAGDADI:
He went to hell to preach to the souls there.

You mean Sheol ? Yeah psalm 16:10 says Sheol.
He went to preach in the Grave ?

shadeyinka:

We know that the book of Revelation is partly literal and partly symbolic. If you claim a part is literal it should be justified, if symbolic, it should also be justified and if a mixture, it should be justified.

Hence,
If the souls in question are symbolic, apply it to answer:

Is 100% symbolic, would you please explain the symbolic meaning of
1. Those who were slain?
2. What it meant by "they cried with a loud voice"?
3. Told to rest a little while?
4. Given white robes?
5. The fellow brothers that should be killed on the earth?
6. Those who dwell on the earth.



Job doesn't seem to agree with that!
Job is saying death is permanent. He doesn't even give any hope of Resurection.
What is the lesson here:
Don't build Doctrine through a single text of the OLD testament for you will arrive at a wrong interpretation just like

Eccl 9:5:
"For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten."
Even Exclusive 9:5 seem to preclude the possibility of any Resurection of the dead.



Of course death is a Disconnection/Separation NOT a termination/annihilation. That is why the word Disconnection/Separation can be used within the context of every form of death in the Scriptures and still make sense.

Spiritual death doesn't mean the spirit of man become DEAD (terminated/annihilated) but DISCONNECTED/SEPARATED from God because of SIN


You are still looking at death from the point of view of termination/annihilation and not Disconnection.


The purpose of Resurection is to return man to the state in which he was created: a glorified physical being not simply a spirit being.


The evil were woken up to everlasting SHAME! If the second death annihilated them, their shame cannot be said to be everlasting.

Do you agree with my definition of death?
Do you think it breaks down in application?




It doesn't dawn on you that the Brain is just the physical hardware on which our soul/spirit operates.

When you say:
"I am happy", who are you referring to? Is it your Body or the You who lives inside your Body?

I actually find it a little amusing with you guys for the reason that
1. You believe that miracles have ceased to be (because Jesus doesn't use you for anything supernatural)
2. At the same time, you believe that satan is still operating through some people by performing "spectacular miracles"
3. So that, whenever you see something out of the ordinary, you attribute it it satan even when you know it was done in Jesus name.

Your wrong doctrines is what has limited you permanently to the earthly.

If with everything you teach and believe, we can also see apart from good character the evidence that Christ has commissioned you to serve him in Preaching, Healing and Deliverance of people from Demonic affliction, we can take you a little serious.

Or why do you think Jesus stopped using JWs for Healing and Deliverance but use other Christians?

Was Jesus returned to a Glorified physical body ?

Does a Glorified body has defects like Wounds and Scars ?

So A person with hunchback will return with that Defect ?

I feel like giving you a knock to restore your sense

shadeyinka:

Yes you are correct! Gehenna is used as a symbol for something.
That thing is:
1. Gods refuse dump
2. A place where "the rejected souls" are put

Jesus never taught that it is a place of annihilation otherwise according to you, death is a sufficient form of unconscious state or termination of existence.

Jesus warned that it is better entering the kingdom of God battered here on earth than having everything on earth but loosing your soul in God's refuse dump.

Mar 9:43-48:
"And if your hand offend you, cut it off: it is better for you to enter into life maimed, than having two hands to go into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched: Where their worm dies not, and the fire is not quenched. And if your foot offend you, cut it off: it is better for you to enter halt into life, than having two feet to be cast into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched: Where their worm dies not, and the fire is not quenched. And if your eye offend you, pluck it out: it is better for you to enter into the kingdom of God with one eye, than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire : Where their worm dies not, and the fire is not quenched."

If HELL was just annihilation, the worst God can do isn't different from what man can do.
Luk 12:4-5:
"And I say to you my friends, Be not afraid of them that kill the body, and after that have no more that they can do. But I will forewarn you whom you shall fear: Fear him, which after he has killed has power to cast into hell; yes, I say to you, Fear him."


After God has killed, He has the power to cast the dead person into Hell!
Compare with:
After Man has killed, he has the power to bury the dead person in the ground!

As JWs, the two is exactly the same: then why should anyone fear God!

I always tell you that quoting scripture doesn't equate understanding it. Not at all. From the highlight

What does God Cast into Hell ?

A. Body

B. Soul

C. BOTH soul and body

haywizzy007:
@ bolded, you are really a clown...lol
No one has gone to heaven to get Heavenly things and brought it back to the Earth....alBHAGDADI 2019
Heavenly things like what?

Jozzy4:


Angels have spiritual bodies. Like the heavenly one, so are those who belong to heaven .

To move and have our being ( Exist) the Red is important. , That's the opposite of death.

In Him (God) is the key word!

Jozzy4:


I can't spoon feed you, If you do not believe the other seals where Death rides horse, Stars fell on earth are Real. Shut your mouth.

That's why you dodge explaining the symbolic significance of any of


Rev 6:9-11:
"And when he had opened the fifth seal , I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held: And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, do you not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth? And white robes were given to every one of them; and it was said to them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellow servants also and their brothers, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled."

Is 100% symbolic, would you please explain the symbolic meaning of
1. Those who were slain?
2. What it meant by "they cried with a loud voice"?
3. Told to rest a little while?
4. Given white robes?
5. The fellow brothers that should be killed on the earth?
6. Those who dwell on the earth.

If you cannot, keep quiet and stop preaching heresies!

Jozzy4:


Look at the red, Hands and feet casted into Gehenna. That's what Jesus pronounced.

Your silly sef said hell is correct, Then Has any corpse disappeared to hell with their body ?



Was Lazarus buried ? What happen to his body?

You don't have sense

Jesus was referring to the person who has the hands and legs.

Mar 9:43-48:
"And if your hand offend you, cut it off: it is better for you to enter into life maimed, than having two hands to go into hell the municipal refuse dump , into the fire that never shall be quenched: Where their worm dies not, and the fire is not quenched. And if your foot offend you, cut it off: it is better for you to enter into life , than having two feet to be cast into hell the municipal refuse dump , into the fire that never shall be quenched: Where their worm dies not, and the fire is not quenched. And if your eye offend you, pluck it out: it is better for you to enter into the kingdom of God with one eye, than having two eyes [/b]to be cast into hell the municipal refuse dump fire: Where their worm dies not, and the fire is not quenched."

Ok! What is the spiritual lesson Jesus was teaching about the Municipal Refuse dump!

Jozzy4:


He can dip his fingers in Physical water which us meant to cool the tongue of physical beings. Wasn't even buried, but his corpse carried by angels . This is where you will get your neck hanged. How many such have you seen happen ?

What do you think was the meaning of "Jesus Parable"?
You've not been able to answer this simple question.

One day, you'll die only to see that you haven't ceased to exist but have been fooled and you fool yourself.

I pity you!

Barristter07:


Sheol isn't Gehenna , if you agree, rendering both as Hell is a wrong translation . Because they carry different meaning. Sheol isn't a literal place, no such spacious place exist in the universe ( Isa 5;14) but refers to a condition of been dead . Gehenna is a place outside ancient Jerusalem, no living beings are thrown there. So Jesus wasn't teaching something God said has never come to his mind which is burning people in fire - Jer 7:31. But those in Sheol ( Mankind Grave) will be ressurected : Rev 20:13

Any corpse thrown into Gehenna is viewed by the Jews as unworthy of a burial and a Ressurection.
So Gehenna becomes a symbol of anyone God would not ressurect.

Jesus wasn't speaking about the literal Physical gehenna. Jesus was speaking of a place of torment! It was rendered as hell in English translations. Those who want to hide the fact that Judgement exist for both the good and the evil refuse to translate it into other than gehenna.

So, how did the rich man enter gehenna? He was buried, wasn't he?
I have highlighted your lie in bold. Unworthy of Resurection?
Gehenna was simply a refuse dump. And Living beings animal or man were not thrown there as at the time of Jesus.
You've not explained the "parable" Jesus was teaching!

Yes, Sheol isn't Gehenna! Sheol means several things depending on the context
1. The place where the dead goes or abode of the dead
2. The grave/under the earth
In the old testament, there was no distinction between the good, the evil or even the animals in Sheol . It was in the new testament that we know that the place of the dead is not uniform. There is Hades or Tartarus and when used as a figure of speech Gehenna.

So, if Jesus wasn't refering to the Literal Physical Gehenna as the Municipal Refuse Dump what do you think Gehenna should be translated to in English (note: Gehenna isn't a translation, it is a transliteration)

Barristter07:


Was Jesus returned to a Glorified physical body ?

Does a Glorified body has defects like Wounds and Scars ?

So A person with hunchback will return with that Defect ?

I feel like giving you a knock to restore your sense

A glorified physical body is a perfect body that has the extraordinary capabilities of both physical and spiritual nature.
If Jesus chose to retain the mark of Crucifixion, what is that to you? Does that invalidate his majesty?

Don't forget that the same Jesus appeared to John in Revelation as white Haired and eyes burnings like fire?
Rev 1:14:
"His head and his hairs were white like wool, as white as snow; and his eyes were as a flame of fire;"

It is JWs who will return as hunchbacks at Resurection!

My questions, you didn't answer:



symbolic. If you claim a part is literal it should be justified, if symbolic, it should also be justified and if a mixture, it should be justified.

Hence,
If the souls in question are symbolic, apply it to answer:

Is 100% symbolic, would you please explain the symbolic meaning of
1. Those who were slain?
2. What it meant by "they cried with a loud voice"?
3. Told to rest a little while?
4. Given white robes?
5. The fellow brothers that should be killed on the earth?
6. Those who dwell on the earth.

Barristter07:


I always tell you that quoting scripture doesn't equate understanding it. Not at all. From the highlight

What does God Cast into Hell ?

A. Body

B. Soul

C. BOTH soul and body

In Hell: the soul/spirit
In the Lake of Fire: the body , soul/spirit

After God has killed, He has the power to cast the dead person into Hell!
Compare with:
After Man has killed, he has the power to bury the dead person in the ground!

If all God can do is to kill just as man could, there is no reason to fear Him.

Luk 12:4-5:
"And I say to you my friends, Be not afraid of them that kill the body, and after that have no more that they can do. But I will forewarn you whom you shall fear: Fear him, which after he has killed has power to cast into hell; yes, I say to you, Fear him."

Jozzy4:


Don't worry, u will meet your Head ache below

The rich man has Eyes and Tongue, are thses spirit or flesh ?

Man consists of spirit, soul and body all of which is a replication each other in shape.

Jozzy4:


Spirit RETURN to God ! Fine.

When Jesus died and his spirit return, Was he in heaven that day ?

Cc: Barristt07

He went to paradise on that day as He had assured the thief on His right side. At least you now believe that the spirit can return to God and not be extincted or annihilated.

Jozzy4:


When did the bosom of Abraham became Paradise ? Are u just deliberately lying

You can ask Jesus to address your question, He is the One who said it unless you are accusing Him of lying.

Jozzy4:


The scripture never said Sheol is divided into two places.

Rather, the Watchtower magazine never said Sheol is divided into two places.

Jozzy4:


Where did it say Paradise was emptied?

Paradise was emptied when Christ took with Him at His ascension the Old testament saints. (See Ephesians 4:8-10).

Jozzy4:


Hades hasn't empty anyone. rev 20:13

Even those in the sea are not in Your hell. Why ? Yeye

Those who have gone to a watery grave where the chemicals of their bodies have been dissolved in the waters of the sea will be raised. God will have no difficulties in putting together their atoms again. The graves on earth will give up their bodies and Hades, the place where spirits of the lost go will be emptied for this judgment. This is where you should ask yourself about your false theology. If the dead's spirit goes into extinction after death as you have been led to believe, how will what is extinct become resurrected? In what body will it be resurrected since the previous one has been annihilated, according to your theology?

Barristter07:


highlight the difference ?

The difference is between the resurrection of the body and the immortality of the soul. Paul answers that question (See 1 Corinthians 15:35-50).

Barristter07:


Does it escape your notice that the rich man was present with his physical body, Eyes, Tongue, could drink water ?

Is that what you preach today about those in hell ?

We preach Christ crucified, buried and bodily resurrected.

Barristter07:


Extinction means something doesn't exist anymore. According to Act 17:38 , Only we the living move and EXIST. Does that not expose your bias and lies ?

If something lives or still exist in whatever form, its still alive.

If something does not exist after death how then does it resurrect?

Barristter07:


That verse said every spirit, which means either winner or righteous returns to God. Where ? Your postulation would mean even sinners went to heaven .

The sinners go to a place of conscious torment separated away from God while the righteous go to God's heaven. Sinners to eternal death and the righteous to eternal life.

Barristter07:


Human tradition say so! Not scripture

That is what your Watchtower society would lead you to believe.

Barristter07:


How did you equate the bosom chest of one man into paradise ?

Ask Jesus who said so when revealing a realm we knew nothing of before.

Barristter07:


Sheol hasn't release any dead person, is Revelation 20:13 missing in your Bible ?

Rather, the lake of fire with brimstone is not open for business yet.

Barristter07:


Separation? The question is Are they not in existence ?
When someone still exist, they are alive. You can give your eternal death as separation but alive to your gullible friends. No sensible person would buy that from you.

They are in a conscious existence in a place of torment, where they still have all their senses even sharper than they were before they died.

shadeyinka:

We know that the book of Revelation is partly literal and partly symbolic. If you claim a part is literal it should be justified, if symbolic, it should also be justified and if a mixture, it should be justified.

Hence,
If the souls in question are symbolic, apply it to answer:

Is 100% symbolic, would you please explain the symbolic meaning of
1. Those who were slain?
2. What it meant by "they cried with a loud voice"?
3. Told to rest a little while?
4. Given white robes?
5. The fellow brothers that should be killed on the earth?
6. Those who dwell on the earth.

What difference would it have made if the verse says their blood cries out of the ground like that of Abel?
1. Abel was slain by his brother just as these souls were slain for bearing testimonies of Christ. As far as this verse is concerned, the Altar under where these souls are crying out to God could most probably be earth. Isn't that where they sacrificed (killed) for the testimony they bear in the first place?
If you look closely, you'll see that John said "the altar" as if he expects the reader to know already. He mentioned any heavenly altar previously or anything alludes to the fact that this altar is before the throne of God.
Unless you can prove otherwise, these crying souls are not disembodied souls but, like the blood of Abel crying from the ground from where he was slain, they're also the blood of men crying for justice.
The use of "the Altar" is not unexpected since these people lost their lives in sacrifice for their testimonies. Everything is pointing to the earth, not heaven.

2. A cry for justice, just same way the blood of Abel cried out to God. Can a blood literally cry? No. Can a dead soul/man literally cry? No.

3. They're resting/sleeping right? Can something that's resting even cry in the first place? It doesn't make sense taking it literally.
These are people who have been killed for bearing the testimony of Jesus. They can't be avenged yet until the appointed time. God is aware of their labor and sufferings and He's planned to do justice at the appointed time until their fellow servants that should be killed be fulfilled.
Chapter 7:9 talks about a great multitude standing before the throne clothed with white robes. Who are they and where are they from?
Verse 14 says they're those that came out of the great tribulation.
What happened in the great tribulation? Persecution of true believers. These are all those that died for the testimonies of Christ.
These are real resurrected people and the verse specifically stated that they're before the throne of God.

Job doesn't seem to agree with that!
Job is saying death is permanent. He doesn't even give any hope of Resurection.
What is the lesson here:
Don't build Doctrine through a single text of the OLD testament for you will arrive at a wrong interpretation just like

Eccl 9:5:
"For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten."
Even Exclusive 9:5 seem to preclude the possibility of any Resurection of the dead.

You're so funny
Can't you see you're actually the one misquoting the Bible here?
Verse 12 of that Job 14 says that man lies down and rises not till the heavens be no more?
Please when again will the heaven be no more?
Is it at the last days?
So if man dies and remains in the dust till heaven be no more, how can you be suggesting a disembodied soul living again after death?
The thirteenth verse is talking about hiding in the grave until God's wrath be past? When will God's wrath be past? The rest of the verse says "that thou would appoint me a set time, and remember me".
You can see Job here envisaging an appointed time when God will remember His own.
The verse 14 opens with a question that's expecting an affirmative answer. Earlier in verse 7, Job was talking about a tree that was cut down and how it would sprout again. "till my change come" in verse 14 is actually a reference to that verse and it's a pointer to a future of resurrection.
The fifteenth verse talks about a call and an answer.
You should have known who will make this call and those that will answer the call by now.
You even said there was no knowledge of resurrection in the old testament until Jesus. [b]Have you ever read Daniel 12:2? Jesus was quoting from this verse verbatim in John 5:28.
The book of Daniel says "them that sleep in the dust" while Jesus, in the book of John says "all that are in the grave".
What other prove do you need that the dead are actually just where they were buried until the call?
Do you wake/resurrect people who are not actually sleeping/dead?

Of course death is a Disconnection/Separation NOT a termination/annihilation. That is why the word Disconnection/Separation can be used within the context of every form of death in the Scriptures and still make sense.

Spiritual death doesn't mean the spirit of man become DEAD (terminated/annihilated) but DISCONNECTED/SEPARATED from God because of SIN


You are still looking at death from the point of view of termination/annihilation and not Disconnection.

The purpose of Resurection is to return man to the state in which he was created: a glorified physical being not simply a spirit being.

The evil were woken up to everlasting SHAME! If the second death annihilated them, their shame cannot be said to be everlasting.

Do you agree with my definition of death?
Do you think it breaks down in application?

Nobody is saying death means annihilation, otherwise we won't be talking about resurrection. The whole point of Christian faith is the hope of resurrection to everlasting life through Jesus Christ. How can anyone be preaching death as the end?
Even Jesus, Daniel and Isaiah sees death as a form of sleep.
Yes, the purpose of resurrection is to return man to his state at creation to die no more.
How was man created?
Formed from the dust and animated by God's breath. At death, he loses his breath and returns back to dust. As simple as that.
So what will happen at resurrection?
Daniel 12:2 and John 5:28 has the answer. Nothing complicated here.
The spirit being you're mentioning, if translated to Greek simply means a breathing/living being. The Greek and Hebrew words translated as spirit in the Bible mostly means air, breath after all, so your idea of one invisible spirit roaming the universe at death is not even applicable.

It doesn't dawn on you that the Brain is just the physical hardware on which our soul/spirit operates.

When you say:
"I am happy", who are you referring to? Is it your Body or the You who lives inside your Body?

Which one is hardware again?; D
Going by your logic, even if the invisible soul is the software of the brain, how can you even explain that in a sensible way?
At least, in real sense, we can still see and work with softwares.
Man was created in the image of God with a bigger brain and a direct breath of life from God. This is not a mistake. That special design and the breath of life is what set us apart from other creatures. We are products of design not a declaration like, "let the earth bring forth the living creature after his kind,... ".
Except you can give a biblical prove where God gave man a separate soul that outlives the body at death, just before he gave us the breath of life, then your argument is defeated.
The Scripture can not be broken you know?

I actually find it a little amusing with you guys for the reason that
1. You believe that miracles have ceased to be (because Jesus doesn't use you for anything supernatural)
2. At the same time, you believe that satan is still operating through some people by performing "spectacular miracles"
3. So that, whenever you see something out of the ordinary, you attribute it it satan even when you know it was done in Jesus name.

Your wrong doctrines is what has limited you permanently to the earthly.

If with everything you teach and believe, we can also see apart from good character the evidence that Christ has commissioned you to serve him in Preaching, Healing and Deliverance of people from Demonic affliction, we can take you a little serious.

Or why do you think Jesus stopped using JWs for Healing and Deliverance but use other Christians?

I'm not a JW.
I believe in miracles, but we should be wary of the so-called miracles in these latter days. "even Satan is pretending to be an angel of light".
We as Christians, should not be carried away by what we see (miracles) but strive to live by the Word, because the Bible makes us understand that those that received the mark of the beast are deceived into doing so, not forced as the mainstream teachings would have us believe.
I don't wholly believe in all the JW doctrines, but unfortunately, most of their teachings are right?