Seriousky guys, and I know this may just be mere conjectures but with all sense of honesty and as be objective as you can be in answering this question:

With the same Arsenal team, same players, same youth set up, playing in the same English League - but with one of SAF or Mourinho as coach, do you think we will have improved or worse results?

For me, its not even about sacking Wenger, its about Wenger realising that his team lacks the right mentality and the only way you can put this into their skulls in being hard on them not pampering them. They are not kids they earn thousands every week. If they can't give the output needed, they should be sent away! Simple.

Arsene is too weak on his players. He is a great manager and trainer but managing the team is obvously difficult for him.

dayokanu:

^^^ You would say its better to continue their 2-4th place see-saw till eternity instead of sacking the useless man.

isnt it obvious that wenger has done all he could? The only hope of getting a major trophy now is to hope Fergie has a heart attack or Abramovic stop a bullet in Moscow

he hasn't tried other methods. wenger is stubborn, if he tries other methods(mixing what he's got with seasoned players) then the results would change.

proudly9ja:

Seriousky guys, and I know this may just be mere conjectures but with all sense of honesty and as be objective as you can be in answering this question:

With the same Arsenal team, same players, same youth set up, playing in the same English League - but with one of SAF or Mourinho as coach, do you think we will have improved or worse results?

what i know is saf/mourinho will not persist with the same format that has won nothing for six years. they would have changed something after the 2nd year with no trophys.

cou-gar:

what i know is saf/mourinho will not persist with the same format that has won nothing for six years. they would have changed something after the 2nd year with no trophys.

exactly, even when one looks at it on a match to match basis, its so obvious he is either too weak or too patient. Players on the field don't play well and he waits till last 20 minutes when we are 2 - 0 down to make a change. Asides after we may have lost, rather than tell the truth as it is, he comes out with the same crap - its the ref or the pitch or something else, its never his players!

proudly9ja:

How do you know the results will get worse under a new coach?

It doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure it out - the underlying flaw in this side's performance is the quality of players.

The only way to improve the quality of players or to understand the players well enough to extract the extra 5-10% that is needed to win trophies.

Unless you get a new coach with a large transfer kitty or one with instant deep knowledge of the players, the results are certain to dip.

The former is highly unlikely and the latter is virtually impossible unless a coach already at Arsenal replaces Wenger.

Cougar
Its obvious Wengers method is not working and won't work.
You also say he is too stubborn so there is no end to the trophyless streak or is he waiting for other teams to drop in quality to the level of his team?

In terms of quality, we aint that bad. Save 3 or 4 players in the first 14 the team has got really good players. So what is stopping us from disposing of those 3 or 4 players and getting quality ones? After all We sold Gallas, Senderous, Silvestre all in one season?

I still stick to AW stubborness. He is so fixated on his own beliefs it takes years to see the obvious. See how long it took him to sell of Senderous? Cygan? Almunia? Silvestre? I mean who buys a Silvestre who even at his best was a calamity?

I do not think it will take a new coach to extract that 5-10% you speak of. If the fans can see it, it won't take eternity for a knowledgable coach to see it.

debosky:

It doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure it out - the underlying flaw in this side's performance is the quality of players.

The only way to improve the quality of players or to understand the players well enough to extract the extra 5-10% that is needed to win trophies.

Unless you get a new coach with a large transfer kitty or one with instant deep knowledge of the players, the results are certain to dip.

The former is highly unlikely and the latter is virtually impossible unless a coach already at Arsenal replaces Wenger.

Your fixation with the failure called wenGAY calls for urgent attentionm.
You might want to make use of the equipment below

dayokanu:

^^^ You would say its better to continue their 2-4th place see-saw till eternity instead of sacking the useless man.

isnt it obvious that wenger has done all he could? The only hope of getting a major trophy now is to hope Fergie has a heart attack or Abramovic stop a bullet in Moscow

they will need a new manager and a massive transfer kitty!

In Arsenal currently we have a lot of above average players that a good coach can harness their potentials.

A lot of Arsenal starters are better than Mikel Obi and Ramires to start with

we dont need a another manager. Our prof of manager has been too lenient on underperformin players. Arshavin has bn lazy and song irresponsive. The others have done pretty well. Chamack,nasri,walcott and ALL our defenders have put in their best. If EVERYONE of the players put in their all, it'll be a different story. If wenger cant wake the sleepin players up,we will be like this for a while. I drool when I see players like kuyt and tevez who put in all their strenght without been pushed. Wenger's genius really could do with such players. If wenger leaves,its the end of entertaining footie in england. I am not a fan of 'winning at all costs'. Would be nice to win with this guys,and I am optimistic that we will win trophies. We have a capable squad. When verm returns,our defense will contribute as much as required to win. Always a Gunn!

dipo2much:

we dont need a another manager. Our prof of manager has been too lenient on underperformin players. Arshavin has bn lazy and song irresponsive. The others have done pretty well. Chamack,nasri,walcott and ALL our defenders have put in their best. If EVERYONE of the players put in their all, it'll be a different story. If wenger cant wake the sleepin players up,we will be like this for a while. I drool when I see players like kuyt and tevez who put in all their strenght without been pushed. Wenger's genius really could do with such players. If wenger leaves,its the end of entertaining footie in england. I am not a fan of 'winning at all costs'. Would be nice to win with this guys,and I am optimistic that we will win trophies. We have a capable squad. When verm returns,our defense will contribute as much as required to win. Always a Gunn!

1+ for the highlighted part. Totally agree.

But you had to spoil it with the last line. Ain't we tired of that line? When RVP comes back, When Cesc comes back, When Gallas comes back, abeg, we no dey tire?

Every team has its share of injuries. In fact Im so glad Chelsea and United have had their share this season so if we fail to win it this season, I wonder what our excuse will be?

The highlighted part isour problem. AW needs to wake up and at the same time wake his team up too!

proudly9ja:

Every team has its share of injuries. In fact Im so glad Chelsea and United have had their share this season so if we fail to win it this season, I wonder what our excuse will be?

The highlighted part is our problem. AW needs to wake up and at the same time wake his team up too!

rooney and rio were injured for a long spell. scholes is currently injured, hargreaves is done! valencia has been out and he wont play till february. injuries should no longer be used as excuses. every fan/manager must know injuries are now part of the game.

proudly9ja:

1+ for the highlighted part. Totally agree.

But you had to spoil it with the last line. Ain't we tired of that line? When RVP comes back, When Cesc comes back, When Gallas comes back, abeg, we no dey tire?

Every team has its share of injuries. In fact Im so glad Chelsea and United have had their share this season so if we fail to win it this season, I wonder what our excuse will be?

The highlighted part isour problem. AW needs to wake up and at the same time wake his team up too!

Abi oooo 

proudly9ja:

1+ for the highlighted part. Totally agree.

But you had to spoil it with the last line. Ain't we tired of that line? When RVP comes back, When Cesc comes back, When Gallas comes back, abeg, we no dey tire?

Every team has its share of injuries. In fact Im so glad Chelsea and United have had their share this season so if we fail to win it this season, I wonder what our excuse will be?
The highlighted part isour problem. AW needs to wake up and at the same time wake his team up too!

At least proudly9ja can think unlike many GAYYners.

That point to the fact that not all GAYYners are retards but all retards on NL are GAYYners.

dipo2much:

we dont need a another manager. Our prof of manager has been too lenient on underperformin players. Arshavin has bn lazy and song irresponsive. The others have done pretty well. Chamack,nasri,walcott and ALL our defenders have put in their best. If EVERYONE of the players put in their all, it'll be a different story. If wenger cant wake the sleepin players up,we will be like this for a while. I drool when I see players like kuyt and tevez who put in all their strenght without been pushed. Wenger's genius really could do with such players. If wenger leaves,its the end of entertaining footie in england. I am not a fan of 'winning at all costs'. Would be nice to win with this guys,and I am optimistic that we will win trophies. We have a capable squad. When verm returns,our defense will contribute as much as required to win. Always a Gunn!

I am still trying to get around this "myth" about Vermaleen's impeccability at the back.As far as i am concerned our defensive frailty's got everything to do with  the set up of the team rather than personnel.It's why even if you bring flair-less Huth,Samba and Ciani to Arsenal today,they will turn to technical players overnight and will be so exposed by our defensively-deficient midfielders,they will stink like 5-day old poo.

I may be wrong,but i make bold to say that since the departure of Gilberto and Viera,the last time our backline was "quite" covered from the midfield was when Flamini was here.I am not sure if statistics point to this but that is the obvious truth.Song had a blinder as a DM last season,but on instruction this season,he's been more forward than Chamakh.And you wonder why he's been shitty?it's cos he's getting used to a new role.

I don't know about the sacking of Wenger,but i feel we need someone like Keown to come and assist him.

kay_pumpin:

I am still trying to get around this "myth" about Vermaleen's impeccability at the back.As far as i am concerned our defensive frailty's got everything to do with  the set up of the team rather than personnel.It's why even if you bring flair-less Huth,Samba and Ciani to Arsenal today,they will turn to technical players overnight and will be so exposed by our defensively-deficient midfielders,they will stink like 5-day old poo.

Dunno what you mean by set up. . . .is it a 'set up' that prevents Squillaci from ever being able to head clear from danger? Being exposed to frequent attacks is one thing, but that is NOT the issue with Arsenal's defence.

I can give you a number of examples - being exposed didn't cause Koko to get in Fabianski's way for Carrol's goal. Being exposed didn't cause Koko and Squill's lack of communication, allowing Partizan to score with a single chance at the Emirates. Midfield exposure didn't stop Clichy from attacking Ciaran and allowing him time to shoot at Villa, neither did midfield exposure stop the CBs from marking well at a corner for the second.

If you watch the Utd game again, Vidic's unparalleled aerial dominance rendered almost every ball floated into the ball useless. The Utd midfielders didn't stop the crosses, safe in the knowledge that their CB's have the quality to clear the ball.

I may be wrong,but i make bold to say that since the departure of Gilberto and Viera,the last time our backline was "quite" covered from the midfield was when Flamini was here.I am not sure if statistics point to this but that is the obvious truth.Song had a blinder as a DM last season,but on instruction this season,he's been more forward than Chamakh.And you wonder why he's been shitty?it's cos he's getting used to a new role.

This has little or nothing to do with the recent losses in reality. Individual defensive errors, particularly from Clichy, Squillaci and Koscielny have been the principal causes.

Even with Song's so called blinder, we still had our worst defensive performance in over 8 seasons, showing yet again where the flaw lies - the quality of your defenders.

Simply put, the quality of the defenders bar Sagna (who incidentally was even at fault for failing to track Park) is the primary issue.

In Arsene i trust.

proudly9ja:

The highlighted part is our problem. AW needs to wake up and at the same time wake his team up too!

This is an illusion - the only difference is that the other teams have won, not because of 'underperforming' players as such.

Go and count the number of times Berba has been castigated for underperforming, or Evans, or even Park earlier this season, or Carrick or even Ando who seems rejuvenated. Ditto for Chelski with Ferreira, Mikel and others getting slack from time to time.

The fact is, if you win, you 'accept' the dross that comes with the silver as it were.

Rooney to all intents and purposes 'underperformed' against us. . . .if Chamakh had that same number of chances and failed to score, some of y'all would ask for his head on a platter. Yet because Utd won, Rooney's mistakes are acceptable. Ditto for Nani - if Utd lost because of the near sitter he missed, he'd be called a failure by Arsenal fans - the margins for success at this level are very slim.

I'm not claiming we don't have 'underperforming' players, but the main issue IMO is the inability/refusal (depends on your viewpoint) to buy quality players in certain positions.

Yes we have people like Denilson who shouldn't be starting more than CC games and be a substitute, and AA23's inconsistencies can frustrate even the most patient of managers and Clichy's luck surely should've run out by now, but Gibbs keeps getting crocked.

Personally, I am quietly surprised we've even gotten this far with a completely new CB pairing - both novices to the league, one getting to the end of his career, the other playing his second ever season in a top division. Only at Arsenal can you conceive of such a defence even starting 5 games in a season, and don't let me even start on the goal keeping mess at the club.

@ Proudly9
I only said the obvious. It is clear by now that we have been poor defensively. The defense cant go on with newcomers and I think by now,Verm is used to english footie. He will add stability to that line. I didnt say we will win the league if he returns now.

Its true that arsenal's game is almost neglectful of the importance of a ruthless,no-nonsense backline. And thats another reason we are the way we are. the CB's should be more tough. Manure,Chelsee and even Villa have HARD CBs. Our inclination to technicality makes it hard to be physical. You need to be physical to win aerial balls,and get the better of the drogbas and the Carrols. Right now we just dont have such ballers.

So a coach can be loaned then, THAT is your solution. Wenger cuts a defeated figure, he has done his best, paid his dues. A team doesn't need ALL its players to be at their best and take the game at the 'scruff of the neck' to win matches. Good tactics get results. Wenger will still tell his team to play the same thing all throughout the match. Arsenal will still try to pass into chelsea's net when they meet, shameless gaffer.

Image123:

So a coach can be loaned then, THAT is your solution. Wenger cuts a defeated figure, he has done his best, paid his dues. A team doesn't need ALL its players to be at their best and take the game at the 'scruff of the neck' to win matches. Good tactics get results. Wenger will still tell his team to play the same thing all throughout the match. Arsenal will still try to pass into chelsea's net when they meet, shameless gaffer.

More like it

sorry debo but I think ure confused

I claim that our players are underperforming because the coach has refused to 'wake them up' and you reply by saying

This is an illusion - the only difference is that the other teams have won, not because of 'underperforming' players as such.

And then in the same post you say

[b]I'm not claiming we don't have 'underperforming' players, [/b]but the main issue IMO is the inability/refusal (depends on your viewpoint) to buy quality players in certain positions.

How can you refute my statement in one line at then support again in another line?

Let us all remember that the manager brought these players to the team. They were not forced on him. We have written off two of 3 signings AW made last summer. I leave the conclusions to you all.

debosky:

If you watch the Utd game again, Vidic's unparalleled aerial dominance rendered almost every ball floated into the ball useless. The Utd midfielders didn't stop the crosses, safe in the knowledge that their CB's have the quality to clear the ball.

This has little or nothing to do with the recent losses in reality. Individual defensive errors, particularly from Clichy, Squillaci and Koscielny have been the principal causes.

Even with Song's so called blinder, we still had our worst defensive performance in over 8 seasons, showing yet again where the flaw lies - the quality of your defenders.

Simply put, the quality of the defenders bar Sagna (who incidentally was even at fault for failing to track Park) is the primary issue.

that was fergie's game plan. . . . .load up the centre of the pitch and force arsenal to go via the flanks knowing neither sagna nor clichy can cross the ball. arshavin loves to tuck in and nasri isn't exactly a touch-line hugger. fergie knew even sagna/clichy manage to get decent crosses in, the aerial superiority of vidic + rio + vds will neutralize the threats. as such, arsenal were toothless and even the little triangles play pattern didn't work cos united loaded the midfield with runners. if the game were to gon on for 900 mins, arsenal wouldn't have scored.

Dobo is sharing the same brain with Dope2much today thats why he is typing all these senseless crap

@dipo,
I agree with you that when/TV gets back into the team, we SHOULD be more stable but that's not the point. The point is, we should always expect injuries. Every team plans for it except Arsenal. The moment AW sees an upcoming player, he sells his reliable more like bringing the unknown for the known. We don't even know what is wrong with TV5 and we are not certain he will be back this season! But will be buy or even loan a CB in january just in case? Let's wait and see,

cou-gar:

that was fergie's game plan. . . . .load up the centre of the pitch and force arsenal to go via the flanks knowing neither sagna nor clichy can cross the ball. arshavin loves to tuck in and nasri isn't exactly a touch-line hugger. fergie knew even sagna/clichy manage to get decent crosses in, the aerial superiority of vidic + rio + vds will neutralize the threats. as such, arsenal were toothless and even the little triangles play pattern didn't work cos united loaded the midfield with runners. if the game were to gon on for 900 mins, arsenal wouldn't have scored.

May I add that even if Arsenal had scored, United would have scored another.

There's no confusion at all.

Do we have underperforming players? Of course we do, but so does every other club out there.

The issue is to do with the quality of the players in key positions, not from underperformance per se.

Almunia is a second choice keeper at best, putting him as first choice doesn't increase his inherent ability level. Ditto for Denilson - he should never be more than a squad player.

Koscielny is a green horn, expecting him to come in and perform wonders is highly unrealistic. I believe he is performing to the best of his current ability, but can improve.

proudly9ja:

Let us all remember that the manager brought these players to the team. They were not forced on him. We have written off two of 3 signings AW made last summer. I leave the conclusions to you all.

I haven't written any of them off. The issue is, you almost NEVER pair two fresh CBs to the league unless on rare occasions. In Arsenal's case, this has become the norm instead of the exception, caused primarily by the unforeseen lengthy absence of Vermaelen.

Heck Utd struggled playing Evans and Vidic, but once Rio returned, you could see a difference.

Dunno what you mean by set up. . . .is it a 'set up' that prevents Squillaci from ever being able to head clear from danger? Being exposed to frequent attacks is one thing, but that is NOT the issue with Arsenal's defence.

I can give you a number of examples - being exposed didn't cause Koko to get in Fabianski's way for Carrol's goal. Being exposed didn't cause Koko and Squill's lack of communication, allowing Partizan to score with a single chance at the Emirates. Midfield exposure didn't stop Clichy from attacking Ciaran and allowing him time to shoot at Villa, neither did midfield exposure stop the CBs from marking well at a corner for the second.

By set up i mean the back four is DAMN too exposed.Yes there are individual errors but the way just one pass leads to our opponents "romancing" our 18 is best described as laughable.The overall disposition of the team to the defensive side of the game must be overhauled.There was a certain way we were set up in the beginning of last season(the pressing game a la Barca) before it became business as usual.We allow our opponents were too much opportunity on the ball it is not funny.

If you watch the Utd game again, Vidic's unparalleled aerial dominance rendered almost every ball floated into the ball useless. The Utd midfielders didn't stop the crosses, safe in the knowledge that their CB's have the quality to clear the ball.

Unparallel dominance?You can only dominate when you are against up against another force and Vidic didn't even have anyone troubling him.Evans the jitter man could have been there and did the same job perfectly,such was our disappearing act that night.Man U had it easier against us than they did against Wolves and 9 men Wigan.

This has little or nothing to do with the recent losses in reality. Individual defensive errors, particularly from Clichy, Squillaci and Koscielny have been the principal causes.
Even with Song's so called blinder, we still had our worst defensive performance in over 8 seasons, showing yet again where the flaw lies - the quality of your defenders.
Simply put, the quality of the defenders bar Sagna (who incidentally was even at fault for failing to track Park) is the primary issue.

You may be right,but consistently exposing CBs who are rookies in a league doesn't help either.There is a reason Rio/Vidic didn't have much to do on Monday and i do not have to spell it out.

Two seasons ago, I said Arsenal fans should go to the Emirates with a Wenger Must change or Go banner, every gooner almost took my head off.
I still stand by it. Not because I want Arsene sacked, but because someone needs to put him under pressure and if the board doesn't the fans should.

Ive said it before and Im saying it again, I really do feel sorry for him because yes he has won trophies for us, but if he doesn't win again, people will remember him more for the barren run than for his 'doubles'.
Ask Liverpool fans who last won the champions league for them, I'm sure they don't even remember his name.

debosky:

I haven't written any of them off. The issue is, you almost NEVER pair two fresh CBs to the league unless on rare occasions. In Arsenal's case, this has become the norm instead of the exception, caused primarily by the unforeseen lengthy absence of Vermaelen.

Heck Utd struggled playing Evans and Vidic, but once Rio returned, you could see a difference.

debo, are you sure y'all are not overestimating vermaelen's ability here? he was fit last season when arsenal were shipping in goals like blackburn rovers. arsenal conceded counter-attack goals to nearly all the top teams they played last season each time vermaelen strolled up the pitch to compete with drogba's golden boot. i don't think vermaelen is the ish at all. he is also prone to positional errors. he loves to get forward(possibly wenger's instruction). i actually think squillaci/koscielny have done really well considering arsenal's goalies and substandard and because your defensive midfielders offer no cover at all.

cou-gar:

debo, are you sure y'all are not overestimating vermaelen's ability here? he was fit last season when arsenal were shipping in goals like blackburn rovers. i don't think vermaelen is the ish at all. he is also prone to positional errors. he loves to get forward(possibly wenger's instruction). i actually think squillaci/koscielny have done really well considering arsenal's goalies and substandard and because your defensive midfielders offer no cover at all.

Thank you very much! Consider also that last season he paired with William Gallas and this season, we expect miracles when he pairs with Kos or Squill. yeah right!