TAO12:


The Portuguese account says that the Ogane's is "some 20 moons" walking distance away from Benin kingdom because of "slow pace" travel.

Is Ife actually some 20 moons' walking distance away from Benin kingdom at some olden days "slow pace" ??

Here, there is a natural temptation to attempt determining the walking duration between Benin and Ife using Google maps.

The consequent error from this temptation would result from the fact that walking durations on Google maps are based on assumptions that become less realistic the longer distances get.

For example, Google maps will not factor-in the "slow-pace" which the Portuguese account clearly acknowledges.

It will not consider how many stops were made, and how many days were spent camping or resting for each stop.

It simply assumes a quite rapid constant pace of continous, no pause, non-stop movement, come rain-come shine, come day-come night, without sleep, without rest, through out the entire lenght of the trip.

This is obviously very impracticable. In fact, Google maps always warn, even for very short distances saying: "Use caution --- walking directions may not always reflect real-world conditions."

The blatant error inherent in an attempt to use Google maps to answer the earlier raised question thus becomes very obvious.

To then answer the earlier raised question quite correctly, it is important that one first determines what may have been the pace of long walking trip traditionally in this part of the world.

A piece of data which I find very useful to find this traditional pace is seen in C. Okojie cited in Ryder (1965), p.27.

He noted that it traditionally took from 4months to 6months to complete a walking trip from Uromi (Ishan) to Benin-City --- a distance of some 50miles.

Based on the foregoing highly invaluable piece of data given by Okojie, alongside the well-known distance betwen Benin and Ife (i.e. about 171miles); we can therefore estimate the duration it must have traditionally taken (in months) to journey from Benin to Ife.

Calculation:
--------------------
(a) IF Ishan and Benin which are
about 50miles apart took about 5months long traditionally.

(b) THEN Benin and Ife which are about 171miles apart would have taken about (171÷50)×5months long traditionally.

When evaluated, this walking duration from Benin to Ife, based on the available traditional data came to more than 17 months.

In fact, strictly speaking, 17 months is the equivalence of 19 moons. I am happy to demonstrate this Math as well.


This (i.e. more than 19 moons) therefore comes to be reasonably equal to the "some 20 moons" of the Portuguese document, in contrast to an irrational and unrealistic result of 2 days from Google maps.

Cheers!

I don't know if you have been following the exchanges between Silversniper and I, if you have, you would have realised that Silversniper was kind enough to do the conversion from leagues to miles.

He converted 250 leagues to about 900 miles.

You have just indicated in your post that the distance between Benin and Ife is 171 miles.

Probing the same source further shows the Ogane in question is about 900 miles away from Benin city, 5 times the journey from Benin city to Ife which you have told us is just 171 miles from Benin city.

According to the same source, the direction of travel from Benin city would have been to the east and Ife is not east of Benin.

And lastly, there is no evidence produced so far of Ife producing crosses which your source also stated were given to the messagers for their efforts.

Even if you suggest that the cross were produced in Benin City, how would you reconcile 900 miles with 171 miles.

The evidences don't match Ife as the Ogane. None of the evidence point to Ife.

The suggestion that Ogane was a mythical kingdom is very plausible and worth exploring further.

TAO12:


[quote author=TAO12 post=88519217]

The Portuguese account says that the Ogane's is "some 20 moons" walking distance away from Benin kingdom because of "slow pace" travel.

Is Ife actually some 20 moons' walking distance away from Benin kingdom at some olden days "slow pace" ??

Here, there is a natural temptation to attempt determining the walking duration between Benin and Ife using Google maps.

The consequent error from this temptation would result from the fact that walking durations on Google maps are based on assumptions that become less realistic the longer distances get.

For example, Google maps will not factor-in the "slow-pace" which the Portuguese account clearly acknowledges.

It will not consider how many stops were made, and how many days were spent camping or resting for each stop.

It simply assumes a quite rapid constant pace of continous, no pause, non-stop movement, come rain-come shine, come day-come night, without sleep, without rest, through out the entire lenght of the trip.

This is obviously very impracticable. In fact, Google maps always warn, even for very short distances saying: "Use caution --- walking directions may not always reflect real-world conditions."

The blatant error inherent in an attempt to use Google maps to answer the earlier raised question thus becomes very obvious.

To then answer the earlier raised question quite correctly, it is important that one first determines what may have been the pace of long walking trip traditionally in this part of the world.

A piece of data which I find very useful to find this traditional pace is seen in C. Okojie cited in Ryder (1965), p.27.

He noted that it traditionally took from 4months to 6months to complete a walking trip from Uromi (Ishan) to Benin-City --- a distance of some 50miles.

Based on the foregoing highly invaluable piece of data given by Okojie, alongside the well-known distance betwen Benin and Ife (i.e.about 171miles); we can therefore estimate the duration it must have traditionally taken (in months) to journey from Benin to Ife.

Calculation:
--------------------
(a) IF Ishan and Benin which are
about 50miles apart took about 5months long traditionally.

(b) THEN Benin and Ife which are about 171miles apart would have taken about (171÷50)×5months long traditionally.

When evaluated, this walking duration from Benin to Ife, based on the available traditional data came to more than 17 months.

In fact, Mathematically 17 months is the equivalence of 19 moons. I am happy to demonstrate this Math as well.


This (i.e. more than 19 moons) therefore comes to be reasonably equal to the "some 20 moons" of the Portuguese document, in contrast to an irrational and unrealistic result of 2 days from Google maps.

Cheers!

TAO12:
Hi davidnazee:

See attachments as promised. For some reasons, I couldn't type them in here without getting blocked.

Cheers!

Hi TAO—I’ve really enjoyed reading many of your earlier posts on this issue (won’t pass judgement on some of the interactions but suffice to say it’s not my style—to each her own).

This issue of the distance and direction of Ife from Benin has been so thoroughly discussed in some of the articles referenced in this discussion that I often wonder if people have actually read what they’re citing. Suffice to say that your point on the “twenty moons journey” as a consequence of “the slow pace in which they travel,” and the comparative example of the journey between Uromi and Benin City provided by Ryder, shows that the journey was not intended to break any land speed records.

Even more pertinently, Ryder made the point that “the twenty moons’ journey” was a mystical, rather than merely physical, trip:
“Moreover, the visit of a new Oba’s emissary to the Ogane was a ritual one...”

That last sentence is key, since it seems to me that we are forgetting that the logic of our African forebears living seven hundred years ago would be diametrically opposite to the measurement of traveling distances through Google. In fact, the twenty moons is the key phrase in understanding this journey, not the postulated 250 leagues, which is clearly D’Aveiros’s estimate. The initial informant told him that the journey took “twenty moons” likely because there was a ritual logic to that time (likely to reflect a lunar calendar certainly in use in Ife at that time), not any gauge of how quickly the journey could be accomplished by foot, horse, canoe or whatever means.

Significantly, Ryder points out the same need to examine the question of direction through the emic (“internal indigenous”) lens rather than what the compass would tell us “east” and “west” mean in late-20th or early 21st-century times:

“However, it must be borne in mind that the category of direction, like those of distance, have to be referred to the Benin context from which these items of information were gathered. East and West are nowadays indicated at Benin with reference to the morning and evening sun, and in the Benin view of the world the sun goes down into the sea.”

The sun going down into the sea suggests to us that what the European compass might describe as the south (the coastal area of Nigeria bordering the Atlantic) is traditionally “West” (where the sun sets) in Benin and related cultures. By the same logic, the place where the sun rises (“ibi ti oju ti mo wa”, as is traditionally said in Ife, as a matter of coincidence or fact) would be described on a compass point as “north” but traditionally in these related West African cultures as “East”. This is not my conjecture—it is in the same Alan Ryder article so lovingly cited here, but apparently so infrequently read. This is actually the point I was referencing in my previous post to Silver Sniper on Robin Law’s wonderful essay on “Eastern Wangara”, which makes this same exact point from the perspective of diplomats and traders in Asanteland in the 19th century. Their orientation of east, west, north and south is completely different than a European’s view, much like China has for thousands of years considered itself “the Middle Kingdom” because from their perspective, China is the center of the world. Ryder is also honest and smart enough to provide the reference to HL Ward-Price’s record of the Oba of Benin’s dawn prayer that demonstrates the importance of the rising sun.

The central takeaway is this—during the coronation of most traditional figureheads etc. in our part of the world, the initiate and their entourage are often required to tour their towns, sleep in sacred groves and temples etc for prescribed periods of time. These events are not meant to be marathons and would likely involve different ritual reasoning for the time required than just measuring how quickly the trip can be accomplished.

Of course, Ryder believes that the Ogane / Oghene is certainly a preserved tradition of a very real place or personage but not necessarily found in the modern-day location of Ile-Ife. As said repeatedly on here in years past, it’s quite possible that he is right in locating the original (or perhaps twin) site of an Ife / Ogane polity in the area of the Niger-Benue confluence (see above for the long and elaborate evidence).

What Ryder may not have known (and that we do now more clearly, with the additional benefit of decades of archaeological, anthropological and historical research) is that this exact area is also inextricably tied by economic, cultural, ritual, artistic etc evidence to the Ife cultural field, as I have referenced in my earlier posts and which other scholars much more experienced and dedicated than I (amongst them Ade Obayemi, Suzanne Blier, Robin Horton, Robin Law, S.F. Nadel etc etc ad nauseam) have demonstrated to most sane and unbiased readers.

Edited to bold some points and to clarify a few other references.

ghostwon:

Shut your mouth, idiot.
You know you are a bastard and a fool pretending to be intelligent.
There was no Oduduwa, but that doesn't warrant all the insults you are levelling against our emperor and all the attacks you are levelling against the Edo.
Basically you are a fool and the earlier you shut your mouth, the better. For years you claim one thing, then suddenly a shitty article is written then you change your speech entirely ! Like a controlled robot. I have always said oduduwa is a fairytale with proof, but since I am not an article you never listened. I produced several documents showing the extent of Benin empire, but since I am not an article you wouldn't listen. One day you might want to reveal your true identity, because your level of stupidity looks imaginary. Bigger traitor than you, I have never seen. It seems you only live to troll while claiming different identities.

samuk:


I don't know if you have been following the exchanges between Silversniper and I, if you have, you would have realised that Silversniper was kind enough to do the conversion from leagues to miles.

He converted 250 leagues to about 900 miles.

You have just indicated in your post that the distance between Benin and Ife is 171 miles.

Probing the same source further shows the Ogane in question is about 900 miles away from Benin city, 5 times the journey from Benin city to Ife which you have told us is just 171 miles from Benin city.

According to the same source, the direction of travel from Benin city would have been to the east and Ife is not east of Benin.

And lastly, there is no evidence produced so far of Ife producing crosses which your source also stated were given to the messagers for their efforts.

Even if you suggest that the cross were produced in Benin City, how would you reconcile 900 miles with 171 miles.

The evidences don't match Ife as the Ogane. None of the evidence point to Ife.

The suggestion that Ogane was a mythical kingdom is very plausible and worth exploring further.

I was about to respond to your 250 leagues contention before I saw that it has already been addressed by SilverSniper in his reply to you and by TerraCotta in his reply to me.

It is definitely d'Aveiros personal opinion of what the distance should be based on his received information of the time it takes --- i.e. "some twenty moons"

I know this because of the following reasons:

(1) He didn't comit to any actual travel to the said Ogane's kingdom to have noted the distance.

(2) The Binis obviously didn't give him the 250 leagues information as his own implied admission in the text clearly shows it to be his personal guess from the information of 20 moons he was given. He writes:

"which ..., would be about two hundred and fifty of our leagues ..."

Moreover, there is no such basis of distance measurement as "league" among the ancient Binis, unlike a univeral basis of time measurement as "moon" with which he was supplied the time information.

In sum, what stands tall in the final analysis as the information he got from the locals, regarding how far apart the two kingdoms are, is the "some twenty moons" information.

And as has been demonstrated, the traditional time duration (based on Okojie's data) between Benin and Ife is more than 19 moons.

This fits nicely and perfectly with d'Aveiros' "some twenty moons" which he got from the Binis.

Cheers!

TerraCotta:


Hi TAO—I’ve really enjoyed reading many of your earlier posts on this issue (won’t pass judgement on some of the interactions but suffice to say it’s not my style—to each her own). This issue of the distance and direction of Ife from Benin has been so thoroughly discussed in some of the articles referenced in this discussion that I often wonder if people have actually read what they’re citing. Suffice to say that your point on the “twenty moons journey” as a consequence of “the slow pace in which they travel,” and the comparative example of the journey between Uromi and Benin City provided by Ryder, shows that the journey was not intended to break any land speed records.

Even more pertinently, Ryder made the point that “the twenty moons’ journey” was a mystical, rather than merely physical, trip:
“Moreover, the visit of a new Oba’s emissary to the Ogane was a ritual one...”

That last sentence is key, since it seems to me that we are forgetting that the logic of our African forebears living seven hundred years ago would be diametrically opposite to the measurement of traveling distances through Google. In fact, the twenty moons is the key phrase in understanding this journey, not the postulated 250 leagues, which is clearly D’Aveiros’s estimate. The initial informant told him that the journey took “twenty moons” likely because there was a ritual logic to that time (likely to reflect the lunar calendar certainly in use in Ife at that time), not any gauge of how quickly the journey could be accomplished by foot, horse, canoe or whatever means.

Significantly, Ryder points out the same need to examine the question of direction through the emic (“internal indigenous”) lens rather than what the compass would tell us “east” and “west” mean in late-20th or early 21st-century times:

“However, it must be borne in mind that the category of direction, like those of distance, [b]have to be referred to the Benin context from which these items of information were gathered. East and West are nowadays indicated at Benin with reference to the morning and evening sun, and in the Benin view of the world the sun goes down into the sea.” The sun going down into the sea suggests to us that what the European compass might describe as the south (the coastal area of Nigeria bordering the Atlantic) is traditionally “West” in Benin (where the sun sets). By the same logic, the place where the sun rises (“ibi ti oju ti mo wa”, as is traditionally said in Ife, as a matter of coincidence or fact) would be described on a compass point as “north” and traditionally as “East”. This is not my conjecture—it is in the same Alan Ryder article so lovingly cited here, but apparently so infrequently read. This is actually the point I was referencing in my previous post to Silver Sniper on Robin Law’s wonderful essay on “Eastern Wangara”, which makes this same exact point from the perspective of diplomats and traders in Asanteland in the 19th century. Their orientation of east, west, north and south is completely different than a Europeans, much like China has for thousands of years considered itself “the Middle Kingdom” because from their perspective, China is the center of the world.

During the coronation of most traditional figureheads etc. in our part of the world, they are often required to tour their town, sleep in sacred groves and temples etc for prescribed periods of time. They are not marathons and would likely involve different ritual reasoning for the time required than just quickly the trip can be accomplished.

Of course, Ryder believes that the Ogane / Oghene is certainly a preserved tradition of a very real place or personage but not necessarily found in the modern-day location of Ile-Ife. As said repeatedly on here in years past, it’s quite possible that he is right in locating the original (or perhaps twin) site of an Ife / Ogane polity in the area of the Niger-Benue confluence (see above for the long and elaborate evidence).

What Ryder may not have known (and that we do now more clearly, with the additional benefit of decades of archaeological, anthropological and historical research) is that this exact area is also inextricably tied by economic, cultural, ritual, artistic etc evidence to the Ife cultural field, as I have referenced in my earlier posts and which other scholars much more experienced and dedicated than I (amongst them Ade Obayemi, Suzanne Blier, Robin Horton, Robin Law, S.F. Nadel etc etc ad nauseam) have demonstrated to most sane and unbiased readers.

I have carefully gone through your submission and highlighted 5 areas.

1. You suggested that the 20 moon is a mystical journey, this will only lead credence to the arguments by some that Ogane is a mythical kingdom that wasn't real.

2. You have played down Ryder's 250 league distance because you would have realised by now from Silversniper conversion that 250 league is about 900 miles which is more than 5 times the distance from Benin city to Ife which is about 171 miles.

3. You speculated that the 20 moons must have certainly be calculated using Ife lunar calendar, there is no evidence that Benin was using Ife lunar calendar at this time, besides, the informant that told the European this story was a Benin informant, not Ife informant.

4. You indicated that Ryder himself dismissed Ife as being the location of the Ogane and rather pointed to the direction of the Niger Benue confluence.

5. You seems to be trying to link the Niger Benue confluence to Ife. To be honest I don't see how this will be relevant to the fact that non of the actual evidences support Ife to be Ogane.

samuk:


I don't know if you have been following the exchanges between Silversniper and I, if you have, you would have realised that Silversniper was kind enough to do the conversion from leagues to miles.

He converted 250 leagues to about 900 miles.

You have just indicated in your post that the distance between Benin and Ife is 171 miles.

Probing the same source further shows the Ogane in question is about 900 miles away from Benin city, 5 times the journey from Benin city to Ife which you have told us is just 171 miles from Benin city.

According to the same source, the direction of travel from Benin city would have been to the east and Ife is not east of Benin.

And lastly, there is no evidence produced so far of Ife producing crosses which your source also stated were given to the messagers for their efforts.

Even if you suggest that the cross were produced in Benin City, how would you reconcile 900 miles with 171 miles.

The evidences don't match Ife as the Ogane. None of the evidence point to Ife.

The suggestion that Ogane was a mythical kingdom is very plausible and worth exploring further.

And regarding the "east" dilema, I have already discussed that where I wrote the following:

Regarding dilema (2) which says that the Kingdom of the Ogane is to the "east" of Benin kingdom.

This is about the most puzzling for historians. But it turns out in the end to be the most obvious and the simplest of all.

Ile-Ife is famous and well known in ancient times (and in present times as well) by the epithet --- "Ibi Ojúmọ́ Tií Mọ́ Wá".

This is the simple and straightforward solution to the "east" dilema in the Portuguese account.

This is especially considering the fact that every other detail in the account regarding the Ogane checks out perfectly only with the Ooni of Ife.

Also, every attempt to find this Ogane in the actual geographical east have proven futile and absurd.

Now what then does this epithet of Ife actually translate to, and how does it resolve the "east" dilema??

In its baisic literal sense, this epithet of Ife namely: "Ibi Ojúmọ́ Tií Mọ́ Wá" simply describes Ife as: "The place from where daylight shines forth."

Put differently, it translates as: The place from where the sun rises.

Every Yoruba kingdom whether to the eastern side or to the western side of Ife knows Ife by this epithet.

And to be sure that this was not merely made up in recent times --- by historians --- in the course of resolving the "east" dilema, the following piece of historcal informatiom sheds some light:

The first Christian missionary to visit Ife in the 1850s, David Hinderer alludes to this epithet of Ife in his account. He wrote:

"Ife is famous as being the seat of idolatry; all the multiple idols of this part of the country are said to emanate from this town; from there the sun and moon rises where they are buried in the ground, and all people of this country and even white men spring from thks town."

Reference:
David Hinderer, "Diaries," Ibadan, Christian Missionary Society (CMS), quoted in I. A. Akinjogbin, ed., The Cradle of a Race: Ile-Ife from the Beginning to 1980, PortHarcourt, Sunray Publications, 1992, xi.

Although this epithet of Ife is not necessarily scientifically and geographically accurate from all geographical sides of Ife, the local people have a strong and firm belief in it nevertheless.

In fact, I. A. Akinjogbin and others have opined that this unanimous strong belief in an epithet of Ife which is obviously scientifically inaccurate, must have --- in the earliest times --- originally had a functional meaning which is simply to the effect that Ife is the place from where culture and civilization spread to other lands.

The fact that this literal epithet of Ife (as the place from where the sun rises) is also known in ancient Benin kingdom, is quite evident in the earlier cited documentation by Ward-Price.

Oba Eweka II notes that he must wait for the first rays of the sun to shine forth before he proceeds to begin his sacred devotion which he obviously connects back to the "Oghene of Ife."

His consistent daily connection of the first rays of the sun with Ife/Yorubaland (despite the geography being opposite) is obviously not unintentional.

It clearly relates to the ancient epithet of Ife as the place from where sunlight shines forth. See the attachment again for a reminder.

In light of the foregoing, it becomes clear where the "east" in d'Aveiros account sprang from in relation to the kingdom of the Oghene or Ogane.

João Afonso d'Aveiro documented "east" when in fact he was told "the place from where the sun rises".

To be fair to him, there is almost no way he could have escaped the misunderstanding.


The attachment also shows how the brass cross were connected back to Ife by Oba Eweka II.

I have discussed all these in details earlier on this same thread.

Cheers!

samuk:


I don't know if you have been following the exchanges between Silversniper and I, if you have, you would have realised that Silversniper was kind enough to do the conversion from leagues to miles.

He converted 250 leagues to about 900 miles.

You have just indicated in your post that the distance between Benin and Ife is 171 miles.

Probing the same source further shows the Ogane in question is about 900 miles away from Benin city, 5 times the journey from Benin city to Ife which you have told us is just 171 miles from Benin city.

According to the same source, the direction of travel from Benin city would have been to the east and Ife is not east of Benin.

And lastly, there is no evidence produced so far of Ife producing crosses which your source also stated were given to the messagers for their efforts.

Even if you suggest that the cross were produced in Benin City, how would you reconcile 900 miles with 171 miles.

The evidences don't match Ife as the Ogane. None of the evidence point to Ife.

The suggestion that Ogane was a mythical kingdom is very plausible and worth exploring further.

What i feel is we are mistaken both identity as one ragnum ogvene located around the arab regions and oghene told by the benins to the Portuguese

I guess there is a confusion between both identities i still go with Ryder's article

samuk:


I don't know if you have been following the exchanges between Silversniper and I, if you have, you would have realised that Silversniper was kind enough to do the conversion from leagues to miles.

He converted 250 leagues to about 900 miles.

You have just indicated in your post that the distance between Benin and Ife is 171 miles.

Probing the same source further shows the Ogane in question is about 900 miles away from Benin city, 5 times the journey from Benin city to Ife which you have told us is just 171 miles from Benin city.

According to the same source, the direction of travel from Benin city would have been to the east and Ife is not east of Benin.

And lastly, there is no evidence produced so far of Ife producing crosses which your source also stated were given to the messagers for their efforts.

Even if you suggest that the cross were produced in Benin City, how would you reconcile 900 miles with 171 miles.

The evidences don't match Ife as the Ogane. None of the evidence point to Ife.

The suggestion that Ogane was a mythical kingdom is very plausible and worth exploring further.

The 20moon journey could it be going and coming

TAO12:


And regarding the "east" dilema, I have already discussed that where I wrote the following:

Regarding dilema (2) which says that the Kingdom of the Ogane is to the "east" of Benin kingdom.

This is about the most puzzling for historians. But it turns out in the end to be the most obvious and the simplest of all.

Ile-Ife is famous and well known in ancient times (and in present times as well) by the epithet --- "Ibi Ojúmọ́ Tií Mọ́ Wá".

This is the simple and straightforward solution to the "east" dilema in the Portuguese account.

This is especially considering the fact that every other detail in the account regarding the Ogane checks out perfectly only with the Ooni of Ife.

Also, every attempt to find this Ogane in the actual geographical east have proven futile and absurd.

Now what then does this epithet of Ife actually translate to, and how does it resolve the "east" dilema??

In its baisic literal sense, this epithet of Ife namely: "Ibi Ojúmọ́ Tií Mọ́ Wá" simply describes Ife as: "The place from where daylight shines forth."

Put differently, it translates as: The place from where the sun rises.

Every Yoruba kingdom whether to the eastern side or to the western side of Ife knows Ife by this epithet.

And to be sure that this was not merely made up in recent times --- by historians --- in the course of resolving the "east" dilema, the following piece of historcal informatiom sheds some light:

The first Christian missionary to visit Ife in the 1850s, David Hinderer alludes to this epithet of Ife in his account. He wrote:

"Ife is famous as being the seat of idolatry; all the multiple idols of this part of the country are said to emanate from this town; from there the sun and moon rises where they are buried in the ground, and all people of this country and even white men spring from thks town."

Reference:
David Hinderer, "Diaries," Ibadan, Christian Missionary Society (CMS), quoted in I. A. Akinjogbin, ed., The Cradle of a Race: Ile-Ife from the Beginning to 1980, PortHarcourt, Sunray Publications, 1992, xi.

Although this epithet of Ife is not necessarily scientifically and geographically accurate from all geographical sides of Ife, the local people have a strong and firm belief in it nevertheless.

In fact, I. A. Akinjogbin and others have opined that this unanimous strong belief in an epithet of Ife which is obviously scientifically inaccurate, must have --- in the earliest times --- originally had a functional meaning which is simply to the effect that Ife is the place from where culture and civilization spread to other lands.

The fact that this literal epithet of Ife (as the place from where the sun rises) is also known in ancient Benin kingdom, is quite evident in the earlier cited documentation by Ward-Price.

Oba Eweka II notes that he must wait for the first rays of the sun to shine forth before he proceeds to begin his sacred devotion which he obviously connects back to the "Oghene of Ife."

His consistent daily connection of the first rays of the sun with Ife/Yorubaland (despite the geography being opposite) is obviously not unintentional.

It clearly relates to the ancient epithet of Ife as the place from where sunlight shines forth. See the attachment again for a reminder.

In light of the foregoing, it becomes clear where the "east" in d'Aveiros account sprang from in relation to the kingdom of the Oghene or Ogane.

João Afonso d'Aveiro documented "east" when in fact he was told "the place from where the sun rises".

To be fair to him, there is almost no way he could have escaped the misunderstanding.


The attachment also shows how the brass cross were connected back to Ife by Oba Eweka II.

I have discussed all these in details earlier on this same thread.

Cheers!

João Afonso d'Aveiro documented "east" when in fact he was told "the place from where the sun rises".


The quote above is what someone like myself in search of the truth have problems with.

This conversation was said to have happened around 1480 between a Benin informant and a European. It was documented.

Centuries later, people tried to link Ife to the said Ogane and realised that there are problems, and in their efforts to address this problems, those that were not there or witnesses to the conversation are now speculating that the European must have got it wrong and reported the opposite of what he was told.

No matter how we try to shift the goalposts to fit Ife into Ogane, the fact remains that the recorded historical evidence does not support this hypothesis.

I personally don't care where the Ogane was located or if it ever existed, I am only interested in the truth.

You don't just wake up and start changing the goalposts by altering documented historical accounts to fit a narrative. The changes you guys are making to the original documents amounts to mutilation of the evidence.

1. You start by saying the 20 moon journey is mystical journey, not physical because it doesn't support your argument.

2. You said the 250 league or 900 miles reported is the opinion of the European and should be discarded because it doesn't support your argument.

3. You said the eastern location reported by the European should be discarded, disregarded and changed to west because it doesn't support your argument.

Why not just disregard the entire report as a work of fiction. Ogane may not have existed.

gregyboy:


The 20moon journey could it be going and coming

Irrespective of whether it's going and coming, the evidences doesn't support Ife as being the location. I believe it's going only.

samuk:


João Afonso d'Aveiro documented "east" when in fact he was told "the place from where the sun rises".


The quote above is what someone like myself in search of the truth have problems with.

This conversation was said to have happened around 1480 between a Benin informant and a European. It was documented.

Centuries later, people tried to link Ife to the said Ogane and realised that there are problems, and in the effort to address this problems, those that were not there or witnesses to the conversation are now speculating that the European must have got it wrong and reported the opposite of what he was told.

No matter how we try to shift the goalposts to fit Ife into Ogane, the fact remains that the recorded historical evidence does not support this hypothesis.

I personally don't care where the Ogane was located or if it ever existed, I am only interested in the truth.

You don't just wake up and start changing the goalposts by altering documented historical accounts to fit a narrative. The changes you guys are making to the original documents amounts to mutilation of the evidence.

1. You start by saying the 20 moon journey is mystical journey, not physical because it doesn't support your argument.

2. You said the 250 league or 900 miles reported is the opinion of the European and should be discarded because it doesn't support your argument.

3. You said the eastern location reported by the European should be discarded, disregarded and changed to west because it doesn't support your argument.

Why not just disregard the entire report as a work of fiction. Ogane may not have existed.

You have NOT addressed a single thing in my comment.

You have only reacted emotionally and for obvious reasons. Lol.

At no point did I tell you that the 20 moons journey is a "mystical" or unreal journey. No it is real, in case what you meant by "mystical" is unreal.

[You are about to start again. And you know what I'm talking about].

(1) I made it clear that he did indeed receive the 20 moon journey information from the Binis as the account clearly shows.

And this fits perfectly into the calculation of the traditional walk duration I showed.

(2) I also made it clear that he indeed did not receive the 250 leagues information from the Binis as the account clearly shows.

I quoted the account to show this. He wrote clearly enough to show that the 250 leagues is how own personal interpretation of the 20 moons journey distance.

"... at twenty moons' journey --- which, ... would be about two hundred and fifty of our leagues --- ..."

I also added that the ancient Binis have no such unit (as leagues) of measuring distance.

In this part of the world, we simply use natural phenomenon such as days, moons, etc in measuring distance.

And that was precisely what the Bini did in giving him the distance information --- 20 moons journey.

And I did demostrate that Ife is believed in ancient times (and till date) to be the place from where the sun rises.

And I cited David Hinderer's, "Diaries" (1850s) to corroborate this.

I also alluded to Oba Eweka II's repeated connection of the rising sun to Ife even in as recent as the 1920s, to show that this local epithet of Ife was known in Benin too.


Nay, you ignored all the evidence and instead misrepresented me and replied completely to a strawman emotionally. Fair enough!

Lol.

samuk:


João Afonso d'Aveiro documented "east" when in fact he was told "the place from where the sun rises".


The quote above is what someone like myself in search of the truth have problems with.

This conversation was said to have happened around 1480 between a Benin informant and a European. It was documented.

Centuries later, people tried to link Ife to the said Ogane and realised that there are problems, and in their efforts to address this problems, those that were not there or witnesses to the conversation are now speculating that the European must have got it wrong and reported the opposite of what he was told.

No matter how we try to shift the goalposts to fit Ife into Ogane, the fact remains that the recorded historical evidence does not support this hypothesis.

I personally don't care where the Ogane was located or if it ever existed, I am only interested in the truth.

You don't just wake up and start changing the goalposts by altering documented historical accounts to fit a narrative. The changes you guys are making to the original documents amounts to mutilation of the evidence.

1. You start by saying the 20 moon journey is mystical journey, not physical because it doesn't support your argument.

2. You said the 250 league or 900 miles reported is the opinion of the European and should be discarded because it doesn't support your argument.

3. You said the eastern location reported by the European should be discarded, disregarded and changed to west because it doesn't support your argument.

Why not just disregard the entire report as a work of fiction. Ogane may not have existed.

Kikikikikiki!

If this was in court the judge would be outraged. Mutilation of evidence. This kind of Mike Tyson upper-cut nor be here o.

Change East to West because the European must have drank ogogoro and got it wrong.

The Benin man & oyinbo who had the chat were wrong. Those who came later, maybe after 100 years now think they know what was said better.
Talking from both sides of the mouth is normal to some people.

Instead of people to accept that each tribe had their strengths, that one way or another influence flowed both ways, they want to change history.

Many of our neighbours had no empire. They were small homogeneous chiefdoms/kingdoms. Aside Oyo that had an Empire from about 1608 to 1800 or 192 years.

Benin on the other hand had an Empire from 1440 to 1897 or 457 years.

Yes, Benin success was due to many people we brought into the fold. Bringing their talents along. From the East , South and West. Ours was a multi-ethnic success. Something we proudly acknowledge.

Our cousins do not have that openness despite claiming to be "accommodators". Tolerating people is different from allowing them be full part of your culture despite their own sub-culture, different dialect, etc.

AreaFada2:

Kikikikikiki!

If this was in court the judge would be outraged. Mutilation of evidence. This kind of Mike Tyson upper-cut nor be here o.

Change East to West because the European must have drank ogogoro and got it wrong.

The Benin man & oyinbo who had the chat were wrong. Those who came later, maybe after 100 years now think they know what was said better.
Talking from both sides of the mouth is normal to some people.

Oga sir, what do you expect me to say, sometimes I think this TAO11 lady is just trying to pull my legs or she enjoys running circles around me.

I hope others are enjoying themselves from these exchanges.

samuk:


Oga sir, what do you expect me to say, sometimes I think this TAO11 lady is just trying to pull my legs or she enjoys running circles around me.

I hope others are enjoying themselves from these exchanges.

Lol. Don't be surprised if she's married to, dating or like Edo men.

I guess she enjoys it. I quite like the fact that a lady has interest in culture and history, not just eye-lashes, wigs, bags and shoes.

We need more ladies to take part like this.

Instead of people to accept that each tribe had their strengths, that one way or another influences flowed both ways, how exactly things were, we cannot be 100% certain today, they want to change history.

Many of our neighbours had no empire. They were small homogeneous chiefdoms/kingdoms. Aside Oyo that had an Empire from about 1608 to 1800 or 192 years.

Benin on the other hand had an Empire from 1440 to 1897 or 457 years.

Yes, Benin's success was due to many people we brought into the fold. Bringing their talents along. From the East , South and West. Ours was a multi-ethnic success. Something we proudly acknowledge.

Our cousins do not have that openness despite claiming to be "accommodators". Tolerating people is different from allowing them be full part of your culture despite their own sub-culture, different dialect, etc.

Oba of Lagos message to the Oba of Benin:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dlkO1MWoFqE

Oba of Lagos talking about Lagos relationship with Benin:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TvaiC_djW8o

Some Yoruba came to produce an article saying that the comments attributed to the Oba of Lagos (about Benin relationship with Lagos) were false.
You yorubas live in an alternate reality.

Yorubas just like to peddle lies, day in, day out...
All lies.
If a Yoruba tells you good morning, be careful it is probably not the morning because even the devil will not work a narrow corridor in the dark with a Yoruba.

samuk:


I have carefully gone through your submission and highlighted 5 areas.

1. You suggested that the 20 moon is a mystical journey, this will only lead credence to the arguments by some that Ogane is a mythical kingdom that wasn't real.

Hello—please re-read my submission, as it should be clear that I am not the one suggesting this is a mystical (or if you prefer “religious”, “symbolic”, “magical” etc) journey—that is Alan Ryder’s position in his classic essay that gets quoted frequently here but does not seem to be closely read. I happen to agree with this interpretation but not because it’s specific to Ife, the Niger-Benue confluence or any other mentioned location. It is because any journey of this type involving a coronation, enthronement, death rites etc would almost necessarily be a mystical (“religious”, “symbolic”, “magical” etc) one. It is the opportunity to provide a fitting send-off for one royal/consecrated soul and an appropriate welcome for another one. It cannot be viewed as a marathon, as I said, because speed would not be an essential feature of the ceremony. Think of any burial march, but certainly in the context of Benin, think of the Oba’s ceremony of enthronement and the traditional journey from Uselu, or the various other processional journeys taken as part of that ceremony. I thought this would be clear from my post but hope that this elaboration on the concept is helpful to readers.

2. You have played down Ryder's 250 league distance because you would have realised by now from Silversniper conversion that 250 league is about 900 miles which is more than 5 times the distance from Benin city to Ife which is about 171 miles.

I have not “played down Ryder’s 250-league distance” and believe me, I had read this Ryder essay, the John Thornton one and dozens of others before I ever heard of Nairaland a decade-and-a-half ago. As repeatedly said by many others here, 250 leagues is the estimate of the Portuguese explorer in trying to convey some information received from his Benin informant. It is not the estimate of the Benin informer (who would not have measured distance in leagues), nor of Alan Ryder or anyone else citing the information. It is a guess based on the “20 moons journey”, which is why that piece of information is the crucial one, according to Ryder.

3. You speculated that the 20 moons must have certainly be calculated using Ife lunar calendar, there is no evidence that Benin was using Ife lunar calendar at this time, besides, the informant that told the European this story was a Benin informant, not Ife informant.

This is an example of the sort of hyper-sensitivity or willful misreading I referred to earlier. I am not suggesting that this “20 moons must have certainly be calculated using Ife lunar calendar” at all. Those are your words and your interpretation. In fact, my point is that lunar calendars are common to our part of the world and in many non-European cultures around the globe more broadly. Lunar calendars are the oldest type of calendars and the current common Roman or Gregorian solar calendar is derived from that. Most Asian cultures use the lunar calendar, the Islamic calendar is a lunar one etc. This point is actually not specific to Ife at all—my point was that I’m fairly confident a lunar calendar was in use in Ife, and it would not surprise me if Benin used the same (as with the majority of other West African cultures I’m familiar with). This is similar to the well-documented and widely-shared four-day ritual calendar in West Africa, which Silver Sniper and I have discussed productively on here in past years as well—you may find it interesting to read in the Nairaland archives if you have the time and inclination.

4. You indicated that Ryder himself dismissed Ife as being the location of the Ogane and rather pointed to the direction of the Niger Benue confluence.

Yes, Ryder famously (with Thornton’s agreement) says that he doesn’t believe present-day Ile-Ife is the location of this Ogane/Oghene figure, despite the many compelling arguments for that belief. He does point to a region slightly north of Ife for several reasons (a region that contains several towns actually named Ife/Ufe, by the way—please read Professor Ade Obayemi’s work on this issue again) and my point is that this region has since been repeatedly and undeniably connected to both modern-day Ife and the historical development of Ife-related cultural and economic production.

5. You seems to be tying to link the Niger Benue confluence to Ife. To be honest I don't see how this will be relevant to the fact that non of the actual evidences support Ife to be Ogane.

Again, I can forgive people who aren’t familiar with the literature for not realizing that dozens of historians and anthropologists have made this point (many of whom aren’t even Nigerian, in case that gives people comfort) have made the connection between the Niger-Benue confluence region to Ife in the five decades (half-a-century!) since Alan Ryder published his classic work. There is an abundance of evidence that “support Ife to be Ogane” (I assume you mean that suggest Ogane/Oghene is cognate with the current title “Ooni”), but I am perfectly fine with you believing differently. The only requirement is that you are fully conversant with the very lengthy reams of research on this issue. If you wish to cite the excellent alternative proposals by Alan Ryder and Professor Thornton on the identity of the Ogane/Oghene, then the right moral and logical thing to do is to equally familiarize yourself with the various works of Professors Ade Obayemi, Suzanne Preston Blier, Frank Willet, Robin Law, Robert Smith, Henry John Drewal, Robert Farris Thompson, Adebanji Akintoye etc. on the identity of this Ogane/Oghene and Ife/Ufe/Uhe/Yufi etc. Simple.

TerraCotta:


Hello—please re-read my submission, as it should be clear that I am not the one suggesting this is a mystical (or if you prefer “religious”, “symbolic”, “magical” etc) journey—that is Alan Ryder’s position in his classic essay that gets quoted frequently here but does not seem to be closely read. I happen to agree with this interpretation but not because it’s specific to Ife, the Niger-Benue confluence or any other mentioned location. It is because any journey of this type involving a coronation, enthronement, death rites etc would almost necessarily be a mystical (“religious”, “symbolic”, “magical” etc) one. It is the opportunity to provide a fitting send-off for one royal/consecrated soul and an appropriate welcome for another one. It cannot be viewed as a marathon, as I said, because speed would not be an essential feature of the ceremony. Think of any burial march, but certainly in the context of Benin, think of the Oba’s ceremony of enthronement and the traditional journey from Uselu, or the various other processional journeys taken as part of that ceremony. I thought this would be clear from my post but hope that this elaboration on the concept is helpful to readers.



I have not “played down Ryder’s 250-league distance” and believe me, I had read this Ryder essay, the John Thornton one and dozens of others before I ever heard of Nairaland a decade-and-a-half ago. As repeatedly said by many others here, 250 leagues is the estimate of the Portuguese explorer in trying to convey some information received from his Benin informant. It is not the estimate of the Benin informer (who would not have measured distance in leagues), nor of Alan Ryder or anyone else citing the information. It is a guess based on the “20 moons journey”, which is why that piece of information is the crucial one, according to Ryder.



This is an example of the sort of hyper-sensitivity or willful misreading I referred to earlier. I am not suggesting that this “20 moons must have certainly be calculated using Ife lunar calendar” at all. Those are your words and your interpretation. In fact, my point is that lunar calendars are common to our part of the world and in many non-European cultures around the globe more broadly. Lunar calendars are the oldest type of calendars and the current common Roman or Gregorian solar calendar is derived from that. Most Asian cultures use the lunar calendar, the Islamic calendar is a lunar one etc. This point is actually not specific to Ife at all—my point was that I’m fairly confident a lunar calendar was in use in Ife, and it would not surprise me if Benin used the same (as with the majority of other West African cultures I’m familiar with). This is similar to the well-documented and widely-shared four-day ritual calendar in West Africa, which Silver Sniper and I have discussed productively on here in past years as well—you may find it interesting to read in the Nairaland archives if you have the time and inclination.



Yes, Ryder famously (with Thornton’s agreement) says that he doesn’t believe present-day Ile-Ife is the location of this Ogane/Oghene figure, despite the many compelling arguments for that belief. He does point to a region slightly north of Ife for several reasons (a region that contains several towns actually named Ife/Ufe, by the way—please read Professor Ade Obayemi’s work on this issue again) and my point is that this region has since been repeatedly and undeniably connected to both modern-day Ife and the historical development of Ife-related cultural and economic production.



Again, I can forgive people who aren’t familiar with the literature for not realizing that dozens of this point (many of whom aren’t even Nigerian, in case that gives people comfort) have made the connection between the Niger-Benue confluence region to Ife in the five decades (half-a-century!) since Alan Ryder published his classic work. There is an abundance of evidence that “support Ife to be Ogane” (I assume you mean that suggest Ogane/Oghene is cognate with the current title “Ooni”), but I am perfectly fine with you believing differently. The only requirement is that you are fully conversant with the very lengthy reams of research on this issue. If you wish to cite the excellent alternative proposals by Alan Ryder and Professor Thornton on the identity of the Ogane/Oghene, then the right moral and logical thing to do is to equally familiarize yourself with the various works of Professors Ade Obayemi, Suzanne Preston Blier, Frank Willet, Robin Law, Robert Smith, Henry John Drewal, Robert Farris Thompson, Adebanji Akintoye etc. on the identity of this Ogane/Oghene and Ife/Ufe/Uhe/Yufi etc. Simple.

Ogane is a mythical place. Not a real place. The first map showing ife was done in the 19th century. Enough said, stop telling people to get acquainted with rubbish. Who are you trying to fool here ?
Also it is funny you actually have noticed that Suzan Blier is fluent in French and did some work about Benin Republic but you didn't notice that her mention of Benin might not have meant Benin Kingdom but rather the region which is now being referred to as Benin Republic ?

And it is funny how just that simple quote, a sentence in her writing is what you and your ilks peddle around. As proof of ife being whatever.

I will have you reminded once again that:

1) she was most likely referring to Benin Republic
2) she said among many possibilities, one of the possibilities would be ooni of ife (but you guys are always quick to forget the many possibilities)
3) she was discussing a myth, oghene is mythical, not reality.
It appears on some rough maps of the 16th century and then twenty five years later it is on no maps.

ghostwon:


Ogane is a mythical place. Not a real place. The first map showing ife was done in the 19th century. Enough said, stop telling people to get acquainted with rubbish. Who are you trying to fool here ?

What is this one writing?? ?? ??

Will you keep kwayet when stable people are talking?? ??

Also it is funny you actually have noticed that Suzan Blier is fluent in French and did some work about Benin Republic but you didn't notice that her mention of Benin might not have meant Benin Kingdom but rather the region which is now being referred to as Benin Republic.

Thks is the height of face-saving poor damage conteol stunt.


TerraCotta, please don't reply this. Abeeeg! Don't join him in the gutter.

gregyboy, come carry your 2nd for here oo.

AreaFada2:


Lol. Don't be surprised if she's married to, dating or like Edo men.

I guess she enjoys it. I quite the fact that a lady has interest in culture and history, not just eye-lashes, wigs, bags and shoes.

We need more ladies to take part like this.

Instead of people to accept that each tribe had their strengths, that one way or another influences flowed both ways, how exactly things were, we cannot be 100% certain today, they want to change history.

Many of our neighbours had no empire. They were small homogeneous chiefdoms/kingdoms. Aside Oyo that had an Empire from about 1608 to 1800 or 192 years.

Benin on the other hand had an Empire from 1440 to 1897 or 457 years.

Yes, Benin's success was due to many people we brought into the fold. Bringing their talents along. From the East , South and West. Ours was a multi-ethnic success. Something we proudly acknowledge.

Our cousins do not have that openness despite claiming to be "accommodators". Tolerating people is different from allowing them be full part of your culture despite their own sub-culture, different dialect, etc.

I am even beginning to like her for her tenacity, zeal and energy. I personally like to look at things logically.

We should be able to separate myths, legends and fictions from real history. Every civilisation have their myths and legends and should be seen as such.

I don't know why the Yorubas like to desperately link Ife to Benin in what I am beginning to see as a disingenuous way.

Benin and Yoruba, especially eastern Yoruba already have enough link for Yoruba to share from the past glories and successes of old Benin empire.

Infact almost all tribes in southern Nigeria can legitimately claim to being part of the success of Benin empire and share it as one common heritage rather than this unhealthy rivalry here on Nairaland.

People of Anioma/Igbo, Yoruba, Urhobos, Ijaw, etc have all served in the highest levels of old Benin administration, some of these people were only second to some Obas.

I don't see why historical accounts should be falsified in this way when there are already well established links.

samuk:


Irrespective of whether it's going and coming, the evidences doesn't support Ife as being the location. I believe it's going only.

Definitely ogene is not ife by all documents and even the artwork

I guess oghene really existed as proven by ryder if it was a myth artworks wont depicit it,probably when the Portuguese ask the benins about oghene, oghene had lost is glories and major towns under it had become autonomous there was no need of visiting the areas by the Portuguese....

I guess that sculpture holding a cross with an helmet was depicting the benin oba holding the scared items and not necessarily a messager as we thought

If only we can gather information from the palace concerning this issue we can gather intel on how past benin society works and relate them to the other data

Have you read the works of

John K. Thornton
History in Africa


On the other hand can you relate this sculpture

TAO12:


What is this one writing?? ?? ??

Will you keep kwayet when stable people are talking?? ??



Thks is the height of face-saving poor damage conteol stunt.


TerraCotta, please don't reply this. Abeeeg! Don't join him in the gutter.

gregyboy, come carry your 2nd for here oo.

I have already established that you are a fool, I have told you several times to never quote me again.
I will not have any discussion with a mad foolish idiot like you. Thank you.

ghostwon:

[s]I have already established that you are a fool, I have told you several times to never quote me again.
I will not have any discussion with a mad foolish idiot like you. Thank you.[/s]

Nobody ever likes those who disgrace them by exposing their lies in public.

So, I understand your tantrum and rage.

TAO12:


You have NOT addressed a single thing in my comment.

You have only reacted emotionally and for obvious reasons. Lol.

At no point did I tell you that the 20 moons journey is a "mystical" or unreal journey. No it is real, in case you're implying the opposite.

[You are about to start again. And you know what I'm talking about].

(1) I made it clear that he did indeed receive the 20 moon journey information from the Binis as the account clearly shows.

And this fits perfectly into the calculation of the traditional walk duration I showed.

(2) I also made it clear that he indeed did not receive the 250 leagues information from the Binis as the account clearly shows.

I quoted the account to show this. He wrote clearly enough to show that the 250 leagues is how own personal interpretation of the 20 moons journey distance.

"... at twenty moons' journey --- which, ... would be about two hundred and fifty of our leagues --- ..."

I also added that the ancient Binis have no such unit (as leagues) of measuring distance.

In this part of the world, we simply use natural phenomenon such as days, moons, etc in measuring distance.

And that was precisely what the Bini did in giving him the distance information --- 20 moons journey.

And I did demostrate that Ife is believed in ancient times (and till date) to be the place from where the sun rises.

And I cited David Hinderer's, "Diaries" (1850s) to corroborate this.

I also alluded to Oba Eweka's II repeated connection of the rising sun to Ife even in as recent as the 1920s, to show that this local epithet of Ife was known in Benin too.


Nay, you ignored all the evidence and instead misrepresented me and replied completely to a strawman emotionally. Fair enough!

Lol.

Biafra call thier lands the rising sun mean ogene is at biafra

samuk:


I am even beginning to like her for her tenacity, zeal and energy. I personally like to look at things logically.

We should be able to separate myths, legends and fictions from real history. Every civilisation have their myths and legends and should be seen as such.

I don't know why the Yorubas like to desperately link Ife to Benin in what I am beginning to see as a disingenuous way.

Benin and Yoruba, especially eastern Yoruba already have enough link for Yoruba to share from the past glories and successes of old Benin empire.

Infact almost all tribes in southern Nigeria can legitimately claim to being part of the success of Benin empire and share it as one common heritage rather than this unhealthy rivalry here on Nairaland.

People of Anioma/Igbo, Yoruba, Urhobos, Ijaw, etc have all served in the highest levels of old Benin administration, some of these people were only second to some Obas.

I don't see why historical accounts should be falsified in this way when there are already well established links.

A part of it is their wish to establish the ooni of ife as a southern equivalent to the sultan of Sokoto.
Therefor they must crush truth and establish their alternate "history"/"truth" as fact.

gregyboy:

[s]Biafra call thier lands the rising sun mean ogene is at biafra[/s]

But the ancient Binis didn't regard "Biafra" by such epithet. And this makes all the relevant difference.

However, the Yorubas (and the ancient Binis --- as Oba Eweka II's daily practice shows) regard Ife by that epithet.


I see that you began to consider the evidence closely.

Good job on that.

ghostwon:
A part of it is their wish to establish the ooni of ife as a southern equivalent to the sultan of Sokoto.
Therefor they must crush truth and establish their alternate "history"/"truth" as fact.

If that is the plan, it will run into problems because unlike the Ooni, the Sultan of Sokoto have historical conquest to back up his position in the North and I have not heard about any of the monarchs in the North openly disrespecting and challenging his supremacy. The same cannot be said about the Ooni in the west let alone the entire south.

ghostwon:


Ogane is a mythical place. Not a real place. The first map showing ife was done in the 19th century. Enough said, stop telling people to get acquainted with rubbish. Who are you trying to fool here ?
Also it is funny you actually have noticed that Suzan Blier is fluent in French and did some work about Benin Republic but you didn't notice that her mention of Benin might not have meant Benin Kingdom but rather the region which is now being referred to as Benin Republic ?

A perfect example of why I save my responses for worthwhile people and topics. I sincerely don’t even know what you mean by this, but if these references to Suzanne Preston Blier’s work have interested you, please delve into her bibliography here: https://scholar.harvard.edu/blier/biocv

You will see her upcoming book (titled “1325: How Medieval Africa Made the World Modern”) mentioned, which I expect will cover her research on Ife arts and this export economy I referenced in greater detail.

Her 2015 book that I have mentioned here (and in years past) is available from Cambridge University Press here: https://www.cambridge.org/core/books/art-and-risk-in-ancient-yoruba/1D8136F1682FC0244F690903B437653D#fndtn-information (not sure how easily available it is in Nigeria itself, unfortunately)

Suzanne Blier lecture in French (coincidentally on her research on Vodun in Benin Republic, in case that somehow clarifies your question above):
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uv9VYFlJbRo

Suzanne Blier lecture on African trade routes and putative links between the roots of the Prester John concept, historical Coptic Christian centers in medieval West Africa and the global trading networks I alluded to in my other posts:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5HTZsaksh84

Edit: Silver Sniper—please refer to 10:00 - 15:00 of the last video for the information on wadis and important references that tally with my earlier post.

TerraCotta:


A perfect example of why I save my responses for worthwhile people and topics. I sincerely don’t even know what you mean by this, but if these references to Suzanne Preston Blier’s work have interested you, please delve into her bibliography here: https://scholar.harvard.edu/blier/biocv

You will see that her upcoming book (titled “1325: How Medieval Africa Made the World Modern”) mentioned, which I expect will cover her research on Ife arts and this export economy I referenced in greater detail.

Her 2015 book that I have mentioned here (and in years past) is available from Cambridge University Press here: https://www.cambridge.org/core/books/art-and-risk-in-ancient-yoruba/1D8136F1682FC0244F690903B437653D#fndtn-information (not sure how easily available it is in Nigeria itself, unfortunately)

Suzanne Blier lecture in French (coincidentally on her research on Vodun in Benin Republic, in case that somehow clarifies your question above):
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uv9VYFlJbRo

Suzanne Blier lecture on African trade routes and putative links between the roots of the Prester John concept, historical Coptic Christian centers in medieval West Africa and the global trading networks I alluded to in my other posts:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5HTZsaksh84

I live in France, I studied in French universities.
I speak more than fluent French and I certainly don't get what your point is. My earlier statement stands.
This your submission goes further into proving my point actually.

ghostwon:


Ogane is a mythical place. Not a real place. The first map showing ife was done in the 19th century. Enough said, stop telling people to get acquainted with rubbish. Who are you trying to fool here ?
Also it is funny you actually have noticed that Suzan Blier is fluent in French and did some work about Benin Republic but you didn't notice that her mention of Benin might not have meant Benin Kingdom but rather the region which is now being referred to as Benin Republic ?

And it is funny how just that simple quote, a sentence in her writing is what you and your ilks peddle around. As proof of ife being whatever.

I will have you reminded once again that:

1) she was most likely referring to Benin Republic not Benin Kingdom.
2) she said among many possibilities, one of the possibilities would be ooni of ife (but you guys are always quick to forget the many possibilities)
3) she was discussing a myth, oghene is mythical, not reality.
It appears on some rough maps of the 16th century and then twenty five years later it is on no maps.

TerraCotta:


A perfect example of why I save my responses for worthwhile people and topics. I sincerely don’t even know what you mean by this, but if these references to Suzanne Preston Blier’s work have interested you, please delve into her bibliography here: https://scholar.harvard.edu/blier/biocv

You will see that her upcoming book (titled “1325: How Medieval Africa Made the World Modern”) mentioned, which I expect will cover her research on Ife arts and this export economy I referenced in greater detail.

Her 2015 book that I have mentioned here (and in years past) is available from Cambridge University Press here: https://www.cambridge.org/core/books/art-and-risk-in-ancient-yoruba/1D8136F1682FC0244F690903B437653D#fndtn-information (not sure how easily available it is in Nigeria itself, unfortunately)

Suzanne Blier lecture in French (coincidentally on her research on Vodun in Benin Republic, in case that somehow clarifies your question above):
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uv9VYFlJbRo

Suzanne Blier lecture on African trade routes and putative links between the roots of the Prester John concept, historical Coptic Christian centers in medieval West Africa and the global trading networks I alluded to in my other posts:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5HTZsaksh84

Please dont reply him. I know what I'm talking about.

He's not stable, I promise you. /s

He'll prove me right shortly.


Thanks so much for all the information tho.

gregyboy:



Definitely ogene is not ife by all documents and even the artwork

I guess oghene really existed as proven by ryder if it was a myth artworks wont depicit it,probably when the Portuguese ask the benins about oghene, oghene had lost is glories and major towns under it had become autonomous there was no need of visiting the areas by the Portuguese....

I guess that sculpture holding a cross with an helmet was depicting the benin oba holding the scared items and not necessarily a messager as we thought

If only we can gather information from the palace concerning this issue we can gather intel on how past benin society works and relate them to the other data

Have you read the works of

John K. Thornton
History in Africa


On the other hand can you relate this sculpture

No I haven't. I believe the Benin artworks need to be studied closely.