samuk:


No I haven't. I believe the Benin artworks need to be studied closely.

samuk:


If that is the plan, it will run into problems because unlike the Ooni, the Sultan of Sokoto have historical conquest to back up his position in the North and I have not heard about any of the monarchs in the North openly disrespecting and challenging his supremacy. The same cannot be said about the Ooni in the west let alone the entire south.

Osagyefo98:


Ooni over south....Lolzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz

Impossibly impossible..

Seems una want wake everybody up...abi?

But I think the argument is simply Ooni influence over west and Edo and not south which is what Tao11 are trying to prove.

More sincerely many Yorubas always join Edo to their foods so it is a not new because it has been like that for years.

TAO12:


All evidence so far in this thread have demonstrated again and again that "the most powerful monarch" in the Nigeria region (i.e. not only south, and not only Nigeria) since very ancient times is the Ooni of Ife --- no one else comes even close.

Whether you or anyone else like that historical fact or not is an entirely separate question.

Moreover, what I'm "trying to prove" is actually more of a disproof of annoying childish untruths like "many Yorubas always join Edo to their foods".

Osagyefo98:


No time debating rubbish. We don't spare such time.@bolded.

Yorubas sees Edo as part of them always , it is only edos that always try to show distinct between both leading to loads of argument and unending articles...which. can only end in both accepting they.are same.

Osagyefo98:


No time debating rubbish. We don't spare such time.@bolded.


Yorubas sees Edo as part of them always , it is only edos that always try to show distinct between both leading to loads of argument and unending articles...which. can only end in both accepting they.are same.

gregyboy:



I guess you're seeing it, yorubas want to attach themselves to benin even when all documents prove otherwise,
They are lovers of greatness they will attach themselves to the north to get power as soon as the igbo retains the power they attach themselves to them too

If thier lies suceed in the nearest future, anything benin archieved over yoruba areas, will amount to nothing. all glories will be going to them while they marginalize us the benin because deep down they know truly we are not yorubas, just the way they did to us in former western region,

Lastly they will take the full pride to tournament the igbos and the hausas too because benin history is beyond nigeria alone

The oba of benin accepted the Oduduwa history in the former western region so as to reckon the benins as yoruba, even with his attempt we were still constantly marginalize, we had to pull out but awolowo the demon was willing to keep us back

TAO11:


Well ... except that long, long before the creation of the country called Nigeria and the regions called Western region, etc.; Oba Eweka II was already documented by H.L. Ward-Price to be praying in the 1920s to the Oòni of Ife. Thank God for that historical fact.


Moreover you may also want tl check out the page below from one of D. M. Bondarenko's works. I think it should make an interesting read.

Cheers!

samuk:


If you most connect the Benin dynasty to the Ife dynasty, it's important that you make the connection properly by stating what both history of Benin and Ife/Yoruba says about the relationship.

When you select which of the story to tell, you are not giving your audience the full story and that is disingenuous.

After telling the audience about Oba Eweka 11, you should have also let the audience know that Oba Erediawa told Ooni that he is Ooni's father.

Please always present a balance narratives and allow the readers to have all the information to make an informed conclusion.

Next time you make reference to Benin/Ife connection, tell it properly and not one sided.

The Benin and Yoruba people don't agree to be one people.

The Benin royalty and Yoruba royalty don't agree on the origin of Oduduwa who they claim to be their father.

Anyway you look at it there are disagreements on all sides. Don't make it look like it's only the people that disagree and the royal fathers agree, that will be lie because the royal fathers themselves also don't agree.

This disagreements on all sides begs the question of whether there were any relationship in the first place.

It would've been best for everyone to stay on their lanes but the Yorubas are not letting go because that would continue to put their history at a disadvantage because Benin history is four hundred years ahead. The only way to close this gap is to link both royal household/institutions together.

For those that care:

1. Both Benin and Ife royal dynasty believe they are related

2. Benin royal dynasty believe they started the Ife royal dynasty through their banished prince who fled to Ife with his supporters and became Oduduwa/Ooni.

3. Ife/Yoruba believe that Oduduwa was from, mecca, from the sky, an indigine of Ife. Even the Yorubas themselves don't agree on the origin of Oduduwa.

From the above, the Benin and Ife Royal household/institutions don't agree on the identity of Oduduwa.

In addition to the aforementioned, are people, mostly Benin that don't believe any of the accounts of Oduduwa.

It's up to the readers to decide what they believe but what I have presented above is the true picture of things as they currently stand.

For those of us who question Oduduwa, we based our question on the simple fact that for the first four hundred years of Benin history, nothing was recorded or said about Benin having any relationship with Ife. Such connections and relationships is too important to be missing from Benin history. How could they have missed out the Ife relationship from Benin history for four hundred years if really it existed.

In the same period numerous accounts of Benin/Lagos, Benin/Akure, Benin/Ekiti, Benin/Oyo, were written but Benin/Ife is missing.

*************"Benin/Ife myth only came into existence in the 1920s or1930's.

Every tribes Benin had relationship with in the first four hundred years were all recorded in Benin history. The Igalas/Idah, Ijaws, Anioma, Itsekiri, Urhobos and many more in south/middle belt were all recorded in Benin history but Ife is missing.

In the periods between 1475 to 1897 there were frequent European visitors to Benin, the Portuguese, Dutch, French and Italian all wrote about Benin for the first four hundred years, nothing was written or said about Ife in their written records.

In the same period of 1475 to 1897, there were countless Europeans who were resident in Benin, sometimes for years and there is no account of any of them visiting Ife.

All other cities Benin had relationship with were visited, cities like Lagos 1603, etc. But the European didn't find it curious enough to visit Ife that some people are now shoving down our throats by fire by forces as the source of Benin greatness.

The European visited, resided in Benin repeatedly for four hundred years and didn't for once go to Ife that was supposed to have the closest relationship with Benin. If anyone doesn't smell a rat, they need to examine their noses.

Before I forget, it was claimed that about 1480, a Benin informant did mention one Ogavna to a Portuguese visitor. This Ogavna lived in a place that was 20 moons or 20 month or 1 year and 8 months journey from Benin city, this place was to the east of Benin and about 900 miles in distance.

samuk:


Thanks for the update/correction.

samuk:


If you most connect the Benin dynasty to the Ife dynasty, it's important that you make the connection properly by stating what both history of Benin and Ife/Yoruba says about the relationship.

When you select which of the story to tell, you are not giving your audience the full story and that is disingenuous.

After telling the audience about Oba Eweka 11, you should have also let the audience know that Oba Erediawa told Ooni that he is Ooni's father.

Please always present a balance narratives and allow the readers to have all the information to make an informed conclusion.

Next time you make reference to Benin/Ife connection, tell it properly and not one sided.

The Benin and Yoruba people don't agree to be one people.

The Benin royalty and Yoruba royalty don't agree on the origin of Oduduwa who they claim to be their father.

Anyway you look at it there are disagreements on all sides. Don't make it look like it's only the people that disagree and the royal fathers agree, that will be lie because the royal fathers themselves also don't agree.

This disagreements on all sides begs the question of whether there were any relationship in the first place.

It would've been best for everyone to stay on their lanes but the Yorubas are not letting go because that would continue to put their history at a disadvantage because Benin history is four hundred years ahead. The only way to close this gap is to link both royal household/institutions together.

For those that care:

1. Both Benin and Ife royal dynasty believe they are related

2. Benin royal dynasty believe they started the Ife royal dynasty through their banished prince who fled to Ife with his supporters and became Oduduwa/Ooni.

3. Ife/Yoruba believe that Oduduwa was from, mecca, from the sky, an indigine of Ife. Even the Yorubas themselves don't agree on the origin of Oduduwa.

From the above, the Benin and Ife Royal household/institutions don't agree on the identity of Oduduwa.

In addition to the aforementioned, are people, mostly Benin that don't believe any of the accounts of Oduduwa.

It's up to the readers to decide what they believe but what I have presented above is the true picture of things as they currently stand.

For those of us who question Oduduwa, we based our question on the simple fact that for the first four hundred years of Benin history, nothing was recorded or said about Benin having any relationship with Ife. Such connections and relationships is too important to be missing from Benin history. How could they have missed out the Ife relationship from Benin history for four hundred years if really it existed.

In the same period numerous accounts of Benin/Lagos, Benin/Akure, Benin/Ekiti, Benin/Oyo, were written but Benin/Ife is missing.

Benin/Ife only came into Benin history in the 1800s.

Every tribes Benin had relationship with in the first four hundred years were all recorded in Benin history. The Igalas/Idah, Ijaws, Anioma, Itsekiri, Urhobos and many more in south/middle belt were all recorded in Benin history but Ife is missing.

In the periods between 1475 to 1897 there were frequent European visitors to Benin, the Portuguese, Dutch, French and Italian all wrote about Benin for the first four hundred years, nothing was written or said about Ife in their written records.

In the same period of 1475 to 1897, there were countless Europeans who were resident in Benin, sometimes for years and there is no account of any of them visiting Ife.

All other cities Benin had relationship with were visited, cities like Lagos 1603, etc. But the European didn't find it curious enough to visit Ife that some people are now shoving down our throats by fire by forces as the source of Benin greatness.

The European visited, resided in Benin repeatedly for four hundred years and didn't for once go to Ife that was supposed to have the closest relationship with Benin. If anyone doesn't smell a rat, they need to examine their noses.

Before I forget, it was claimed that about 1480, a Benin informant did mention one Ogavna to a Portuguese visitor. This Ogavna lived in a place that was 20 moons or 20 month or 1 year and 8 months journey from Benin city, this place was to the east of Benin and about 900 miles in distance.

gregyboy:


You spoke well.....

I guess more threads should be created to tackle this myth

Are you in benin?

Would also want everyone one of us to visit the palace to get first hand information on benin history and thier ways of life in the past it will help in the location of ogene and were we binis migrated frim

samuk:


If you most connect the Benin dynasty to the Ife dynasty, it's important that you make the connection properly by stating what both history of Benin and Ife/Yoruba says about the relationship.

When you select which of the story to tell, you are not giving your audience the full story and that is disingenuous.

After telling the audience about Oba Eweka 11, you should have also let the audience know that Oba Erediawa told Ooni that he is Ooni's father.

Please always present a balance narratives and allow the readers to have all the information to make an informed conclusion.

Next time you make reference to Benin/Ife connection, tell it properly and not one sided.

The Benin and Yoruba people don't agree to be one people.

The Benin royalty and Yoruba royalty don't agree on the origin of Oduduwa who they claim to be their father.

Anyway you look at it there are disagreements on all sides. Don't make it look like it's only the people that disagree and the royal fathers agree, that will be lie because the royal fathers themselves also don't agree.

This disagreements on all sides begs the question of whether there were any relationship in the first place.

It would've been best for everyone to stay on their lanes but the Yorubas are not letting go because that would continue to put their history at a disadvantage because Benin history is four hundred years ahead. The only way to close this gap is to link both royal household/institutions together.

For those that care:

1. Both Benin and Ife royal dynasty believe they are related

2. Benin royal dynasty believe they started the Ife royal dynasty through their banished prince who fled to Ife with his supporters and became Oduduwa/Ooni.

3. Ife/Yoruba believe that Oduduwa was from, mecca, from the sky, an indigine of Ife. Even the Yorubas themselves don't agree on the origin of Oduduwa.

From the above, the Benin and Ife Royal household/institutions don't agree on the identity of Oduduwa.

In addition to the aforementioned, are people, mostly Benin that don't believe any of the accounts of Oduduwa.

It's up to the readers to decide what they believe but what I have presented above is the true picture of things as they currently stand.

For those of us who question Oduduwa, we based our question on the simple fact that for the first four hundred years of Benin history, nothing was recorded or said about Benin having any relationship with Ife. Such connections and relationships is too important to be missing from Benin history. How could they have missed out the Ife relationship from Benin history for four hundred years if really it existed.

In the same period numerous accounts of Benin/Lagos, Benin/Akure, Benin/Ekiti, Benin/Oyo, were written but Benin/Ife is missing.

Benin/Ife only came into Benin history in the 1800s.

Every tribes Benin had relationship with in the first four hundred years were all recorded in Benin history. The Igalas/Idah, Ijaws, Anioma, Itsekiri, Urhobos and many more in south/middle belt were all recorded in Benin history but Ife is missing.

In the periods between 1475 to 1897 there were frequent European visitors to Benin, the Portuguese, Dutch, French and Italian all wrote about Benin for the first four hundred years, nothing was written or said about Ife in their written records.

In the same period of 1475 to 1897, there were countless Europeans who were resident in Benin, sometimes for years and there is no account of any of them visiting Ife.

All other cities Benin had relationship with were visited, cities like Lagos 1603, etc. But the European didn't find it curious enough to visit Ife that some people are now shoving down our throats by fire by forces as the source of Benin greatness.

The European visited, resided in Benin repeatedly for four hundred years and didn't for once go to Ife that was supposed to have the closest relationship with Benin. If anyone doesn't smell a rat, they need to examine their noses.

Before I forget, it was claimed that about 1480, a Benin informant did mention one Ogavna to a Portuguese visitor. This Ogavna lived in a place that was 20 moons or 20 month or 1 year and 8 months journey from Benin city, this place was to the east of Benin and about 900 miles in distance.

samuk:


No, I am not based in Nigeria.

TAO11:


I have made this clear enough (and I think it can not be clearer) that:

(1) On the Yoruba side, the Ife account makes it clear that the Benin's Oba dynasty is descended from Ife.

(2) On the Benin side, this same account (just as it is spelt out in the Ife's) is accepted from the earliest indigenous Benin writtings.

It is admitted by Oba Eweka II (1920s) from the evidence of the surviving written account of H. L. Ward-Price that goes back to Oba Eweka II (1920s).

It is also admitted by Oba Akenzua II (1930s) from the evidence of the surviving written account of at least two "Conferences of Yoruba Chiefs" --- a group which he is proudly a number 3 member of.

It is not until during Erediauwa I's (1970s) emergence that all the olden and classical accounts and narratives attempted to be turned over their heads with the introduction of the "Izoduwa" narrative.

Today we now know why this idea was invented in the 1970s, as historians have since trashed the
"Izoduwa" narrative as an apocryphal, pseudohistorical, deliberately unauthentic, over-ambitious joke.

In sum, the narrative that the Oba dynasty of Benin is from Ife stands tall just as it is always been believed by the Ifes, and as it is always been believed by the Bini royalties prior to the 1970s.

And I'm glad that everyone can now understand why there was a revision by the Binis in the 1970s in a newly independent Nigeria.

So, for all those who care for the truth:

(1) Both Ife and Benin royal dynasties are the same with the latter (i.e. Benin Kingdom) being a descendant of the former (i.e. Ife)

(2) Well, the Benin royal house always insisted its Benin Oba dynasty was originally from Ife, until a few years after independent Nigeria when a modern (1970s) Benin Oba attempted to overturn what his Benin ancestors have always held on to, by introducing a supposedly banished prince narrative which has anyways been debunked by historians.

(3) Ife beleive that Oduduwa is an indigenous Ife-Yoruba man.

The idea that heavenly personages descended from the sky predates Oduduwa himself. Such idea is not held by any common Yoruba person as historical, neither do historians treat it as such.

It is simply similar to the idea among the Binis that the first Ogisos of Igodomigodo actually sky-dived into Benin City from heaven.

Or the idea among the Binis that it was God Almighty (the Supreme Being) himself who gave birth to the first Oba of Benin as his last born son.

For the umpteenth time, the idea that Oduduwa was from Mecca is alien to the Yorubas as it originates from Nothern Nigeria.

It is simply an Hausa man's opinon of Oduduwa's origin which Reverend Johnson merely collected through Hugh Clapperton's records.

So whether or not I agree with you on who your father is should not make a difference to your children, especially if historians agree with you, right? So, maintain the same energy for Oduduwa.

The very statement which you keep yapping on that ("for the first four hundred years of Benin history, nothing was recorded or said about Benin having any relationship with Ife" ) is debunked and refuted in the very attachement of the comment you replied to. How ironic?

It reads: "Historically, ethnographic sources and European writings of the early and mid-sixteenth century [i.e. early/mid 1500s] (based on relations from Benin of the late fifteenth century) and of the early seventeenth century, also testify to the Second Benin Dynasty's links with Ife."

Reference:
Dmitri M. Bondarenko; "Advent of the Second (Oba) Dynasty: Another Assessment of a Benin History Key Point", History in Africa, Vol. 30, Cambridge University Press, (2003), p.71.


And lastly regarding the Ogane (not Ogavna as you've deliberately misspelt it considering your consistency) of the Portuguese account, I have shown three important things, namely:

(A) That the Portuguese account clearly shows that "some twenty moons' journey" information was indeed collected from the Binis.

And interestingly the "traditional" time duration it takes to go from Benin to Ife (based on the data from Okojie cited by Ryder) comes after a detailed Math to just over 19 moons.

I have shown the Maths over and over. Will you then attribute this astonishing matching numbers to mere coincidence??

(B) That the Portuguese account clearly shows that the 250 leagues (i.e. ~ "900 miles" ) information was not gotten from the Binis.

Rather, it is clear from the account itself that the 250 leagues (i..e ~ "900 miles" ) was d'Aveiros' own personal guess of what the distance "would be" based on the actual information he got --- i.e. the informatiom of "some twenty moons' journey".

Moreover, the ancient Binis (just like every other ancient people in this part of the world) do not measure distances in "leagues", but rather using natural phenomena such as days, moons, etc. Moreover, d'Aveiro did not commit to the trip to ascertain his guess.


Lastly, I have demonstrated that Ife was believed in ancient times (and in present times --- at least among the Yorubas) to be the place from where the sun rises.

I have cited David Hinderer's "Diaries" (1850s) to corroborate this fact. I have also alluded to Oba Eweka II's repeated daily connection of the rising sun to Ife to buttress this point.

For us today, the phrase "the place from where the sun rises" on one hand, and the word "east" on another hand, both apparently describe the same direction. And that's whole point of the "east" in d'Aveiro's account.

The Binis clearly refered to Ile-Ife when they uttered the phrase "the place from where the su rises" because of this well known epithet of Ife.

The evidence shown from David Hinderer's "Diaries", Oba Eweka II's insistence, and the Yoruba's continous use of this phrase till date, for Ife can not over-emphasise this fact.

But on the overall, I can underatand why you get emotional. What I can't understand is your consistent dishonesty and pretense.

Cheers!

gregyboy:



Nice.... Our edo Brothers, benin don empty youth nor they town again ooh, you can hardly speak to on or two edo person who is a youth that have not left shores of nigeria....
But the issue here is they return empty with no investment or ideas to help edo


Edo is currently experiencing rapid depopulation of its youth and no advantage to it, more of the disadvantage of loosing our culture and our economic power


All am saying is that its nice to be out there, but when you are out there you guys should always think of how to help edo state,

Edo used to be the number one transport service center in nigeria nowadays they are left with ruins..... We need to return the knowledge over there back here to make edo great again

Am still schooling in uniben, and i hope to join you guys someday.....


If there is a charity bank were every edo in diaspora drop a dollar every months or weeks to help the less privileged edo people back home it will be nice.......

gregyboy:


[s]Only that ife is in the west and not in the east


Despirado.....[/s]

TAO11:


And that's exactly the point.

But do you read??


I am simply glad that sane people read my posts from all over the globe.

They see the disturbing truth. Sweet!

TAO11:


And that's exactly the point.

But do you read??


I am simply glad that sane people read my posts from all over the globe.

They see the disturbing truth. Sweet!

Pusyiter:
Sorry, if I may ask
what is the meaning of Oduduwa in Ife yoruba?
...and same applies, to the Benins, what is the meaning of Oduduwa?
This to me, would give us a clue of his origin..Thereafter, I can make my cent

samuk:


No doubt you are a great ambassador of your Yoruba culture but common, do you think you can fill the four hundred years gap that Ife was not mentioned, documented, written about in Benin history.

Owo, Ekiti, Eko, Oyo, Ida/Igala, Urhobos, Ijaw, Anioma etc were all mentioned in specific terms and by the names they were known. We don't need a Maradona or ronaldinho to tell us who these people are in Benin history.

We don't need scholars upon scholars to link these people and places to Benin.

If Ife was really that relevant and important to Benin between 1475 to 1897, it wouldn't need professors and emeritus of history both local and foreign to be conducting historical experiments to link Benin to Ife.

Like I said before, it was over ambitious of those that created the Benin/Ife myth. If they wanted to link Benin to Yoruba they should have chosen more plausible places in Yoruba land that shared numerous relationships with Benin.

Imagine if they have said Oduduwa was from Owo, Akure, Ekiti or Idare, this four hundred years gap would have been closed, but in their over ambition, they decided to choose Ife that has nothing to do with Benin for centuries until 1930-40.

samuk:


Why limits your question to just the meaning in Benin and Yoruba alone, are you not also aware that the Yorubas said he came from Mecca, Saudi Arabia and that he also climbed down from the sky with chains.

Do you also want to know the meaning of Oduduwa in Saudi Arabia Arabic language and the meaning in heavenly language since he was also said to have climbed down directly from heaven or are you suggesting that he didn't have a name before he got to Ife.

So if his name was Oduduwa before he appeared in Ife, the meaning of his name is going to be numerous.

TAO11:


I have debunked your "400 years gap" delusion twice but you probably won't notice since you don't read what you reply to.

Or you strategically shyed away from my foregoing comment to you, just to give off the false impression that you're unaware that you've been debunked??

Again in case you missed it. See again:

"Historically, ethnographic sources and EUROPEAN WRITINGS of the early and mid-sixteenth century [i.e. early/mid 1500s] (based on relations from Benin of the late fifteenth century) and of the early seventeenth century, also testify to the Second Benin Dynasty's links with Ife."

Reference:
Dmitri M. Bondarenko; "Advent of the Second (Oba) Dynasty: Another Assessment of a Benin History Key Point", History in Africa, Vol. 30, Cambridge University Press, (2003), p.71.


Note: It makes you look very m0r0nic when you take your time to type up comments in reply to something you didn't read.

Think about that!

Pusyiter:
No doubt man comes from Heaven and assembled on earth by God
If that is the understanding to depict the origin of Oduduwa, it only shows their level of understanding.
However, we all know there are more fables attached to the personality of Oduduwa hence, let us know the origin of his name in the closest relationship to the languages of the yorubas and benins. Then, we can debate with facts and logic

samuk:


To answer your question more specifically, the Benin royal family and institutions account is that after he was banished from Benin and fled with his supporters to found Ife, he decided to call himself izoduwa/idoduwa both meaning, I have chosen the path of peace and progress. This the Yorubas corrupted to Oduduwa.

Notice I have given the meaning of the name in Benin and the Benin royal institution account.

But some of us are questioning why we were only told about this Oduduwa by both the Benin and Ife royal household/institutions in the 1930-40.

Why were we not told this before considering the fact that they have been recording Benin history in writing since about 1475. Why are they just telling us about Oduduwa in 1930/40.

samuk:


You are right. But don't forget that having so many of us outside the country have also contributed to some of our youths becoming lazy due to the monthly remittances.

I agree that those that have better Ideas on how to improve the social economy situation of our people should contribute their bits.

The population of Edo in diaspora is more than enough to turn things around for the better if the political class and rulers knows how to tap this valuable human resources.

I have few ideas of how to tap this human resources I am developing, I intend to send them to the governor when completed, hopefully he will see the benefits in them.

gregyboy:


The truth is our oba is not helping out particularly the new one, he feels so very comfortable with edo been like this, i know he is working on Gelegele before the completion of the project edo people would have lost hope
After the completion of the sea port it will be another political struggle to get approval to get clarification of goods at the seapirt

I want him to call all the wealthy men in benin to see how to invest in edo state and see how to raise the standard of life of the benin people


As big as edo no industries all we see are storey buildings built by edos oversee....


You our people are lazy, they want fast money if we can make job available to them, i think the lazinesd will wear off

Pusyiter:
Sorry, if I may ask
what is the meaning of Oduduwa in Ife yoruba?
...and same applies, to the Benins, what is the meaning of Oduduwa?
This to me, would give us a clue of his origin..Thereafter, I can make my cent