Endi:

The Issue is not the denomination in Christainity that is worth it, Its your personal relationship with Baba God and his Son that matters.

Maybe not how I would have worded it, but the above matcches my sentiment pretty much exactly.

Denominationalism (and the spirit behind it - which to my mind is no different from {or at least closely related to } the one behind, racism, sectarianism, apartheid etc etc) is one of trhe enemy's biggest tools.

The body of Christ (aka The Bride) is one. Headed by the Lord Himself (The Bridegroom). None of the 37'000 odd denominations can lay claim to all truth, knowledge or solely representing the Lord here on earth.

The Bible simply states "The Lord knows those who are His" No amount of convoluted scriptural exegesis will change that fact. There is no denominational tag, attendance or membership that validates anyone as a Christian. Or for those who don't like that tag, "A disciple of Christ". He said "If you abide in my Word, you are my disciples indeed. And you shall know the truth and the truth shall set you free"

He is a rewarder of those who seek Him - unqualified. And there is no particular denominational vehicle nominated to do that.

All of the man-made dogmas, traditions, doctrines and precepts are futile in the pursuit of God.

There is only One Mediator between man & God, the Man Jesus Christ

My advice? Grab your bibles and fall to your knees.

Carlosein:

Finally, i find it out of place that u should have quoted that particular passage, i mean "The fullness of Christianity and everything that pertains to it is to be found in Christ" when u should be saying something like the fulness of christianity is to be found in the BIBLE! (your initial point)

Christ is the Living Word - same difference sir.

God bless.

It is not my intention to prolong this discussion any further. But I would like to task each of us a little bit. The Bible plays a central role in Christianity. But, Christianity ‘can exist’ without the Bible. The early church had no Bible. What we today call the Bible is a collection of the Hebrew scriptures and writings by the apostles of Jesus and Saint Paul.

In addition to the books of the Bible there are other books written by the early church fathers (some of whom were disciples of the apostles of Christ). At the Council of Carthage (held in the city of Carthage, in present day Tunisia, North Africa) in the year 397, the bishops of the church decided not to include these in the Bible. This does not in any way make them to be of no use.

The Council of Carthage was where what we today call the Bible was put in place. It is important for us to understand the history of the Bible and the role it plays in Christianity. The Bible as the Word of God did not fall down from heaven. It is made up of books written by inspired men and women. Which books finally made it to the Bible was decided by the Church. To be more precise, the Roman Catholic Church.

The teachings in the Bible are not static but progressed over time. One sees in the Old Testament how the concept of the resurrection of the dead became an essential part of the Judaism. In the New Testament one sees that so-called Gentiles could also gain salvation (the Jews of the Old Testament saw salvation as exclusively theirs, to a large extent). As I stated in an earlier post, in the Catholic Church there is the belief that God continues to reveal Himself to men and women all across the world till this day. Thus, Roman Catholic practices have become refined over time.

Why don’t we all think about this—the Bible is the product of the church. The church is not a product of the Bible. The church is the product of Christ. This is where Protestantism differs greatly from Roman Catholicism (and Orthodox Christianity). Telling an inquiring atheist that the Bible is the Word of God may offer little comfort when one is unable to explain how the Bible came into being in the first place. We are living in an enlightened age, and the need to question and learn is ever more obvious.

However, what matters most is doing good and following the teachings of Christ each day as well as loving our fellow human beings and living in peace with everyone.

Hi Olex,

It is not my intention to prolong this discussion any further.
Unfortunately,


Christianity ‘can exist’ without the Bible.
Really? How?

The early church had no Bible. What we today call the Bible is a collection of the Hebrew scriptures and writings by the apostles of Jesus and Saint Paul.
So, if they had the Hebrew scriptures, they had some of the Bible (the old bits) right? And the new bits just required penning. By the Apostles of Jesus including Paul.

It is made up of books written by inspired men and women.
Inspired by whom (or what) may I ask? And which one's were written by women?

As I stated in an earlier post, in the Catholic Church there is the belief that God continues to reveal Himself to men and women all across the world till this day.
Believers beyond the Roman Catholic Church also believe this. But to some, it's not in the sense or revealing new truth. Just revealing and deepening His eternal unchanging ones.

Why don’t we all think about this—the Bible is the product of the church. The church is not a product of the Bible.
Does that mean God had nothing to do with it? Sounds strange to me when one calls to mind that without abiding in the Word, you can't be a disciple, whereas you can go to/attend/join a church and not be. To accept the above statement as fact means the church is subject to itself (men that is!) and not the Lord.

Thus, Roman Catholic practices have become refined over time.
And this refining is done by? Under whose Authority? For what purpose?

However, what matters most is doing good and following the teachings of Christ each day as well as loving our fellow human beings and living in peace with everyone.
Aaah, something we can agree on.

God bless

again i repeat to TV01 that the sincere and simple seeker after THE TRUTH, will come to the conclusions that there are divine revelations which are not in the bible but just as inspired as the bible but maybe you have not pondered this as i thought.
well this discussion is much too prolonged and i have only one more posting after this and
that depends on what i read here.
read all what is posted here from the word go and see how many actually make sense please stoop unnecessary bickerings (or what do u call this?)
again Dominus Vobiscum

Hi Peeps,

Carlosein:

again i repeat to TV01 that the sincere and simple seeker after THE TRUTH, will come to the conclusions that there are divine revelations which are not in the bible

So? I'm am concerned solely with the truth of God in Christ Jesus.
The Bible contains all the pertains to life and Godliness in this respect.

The Bible itself says if all the miracles that Jesus did where documented, there probably wouldn't be space enough. Do I need to know every word God ever uttered to any/all of the Archangels? or the adversary? Or every angelic encounter? No! So revelation outside the Bible, be it of a divine nature is of no real import to my being a Christian/disciple of Christ.

The Bible testifies the Jesus Christ is the fullest revelation of God, The brightness of His Glory and the express image of His Person. The one through whom He now speaks unmediated (self-styled prophets, apostles etc etc kicked into touch right there!)

Carlosein:

but just as inspired as the bible but maybe you have not pondered this as i thought.

Like I said above, I see no point in "pondering" extra-curricular material. The Bible is complete, perfect for perfecting children of God in Christ Jesus.

Carlosein:

well this discussion is much too prolonged and i have only one more posting after this and
that depends on what i read here.

Go ahead, shoot!

Carlosein:

read all what is posted here from the word go and see how many actually make sense please stoop unnecessary bickerings (or what do u call this?)

On the one side (mine) a thoughtful attempt to engage, on the other (yours), a thinly veiled attempt to foister (and wholesale for that matter) you deeply entrenched tradition. Everybody say after me - No to Popery!! Down with man-made tradition!!

Carlosein:

again Dominus Vobiscum

And again, God bless you.

When you have seen the light and you know the truth and accept the truth, only then will you be saved

but if one choses to ignore the light and use a torchlight instead, then there is trouble,

But the problem is that in the face of glaring evidences, some refuse to accept those facts,

I am  not a catholic but I know from history that the catholic churchwas the first. It was the first church that others broke out from. Our problem is that we keep preaching churches the real question should be personal" Am I a christian?" Nothing is wrong with the catholic church, they call God and they testify to his goodness too.

they say they are, at least that's what is on the "religion" part of their forms.

TV01, man you are so gone!
Well there just must be people like you, just spoiling for a fight or a prolonged argument.

Do I need to know every word God ever uttered to any/all of the Archangels? or the adversary? Or every angelic encounter? No! So revelation outside the Bible, be it of a divine nature is of no real import to my being a Christian/disciple of Christ.

again you are trying to complicate things cos i NEVER quoted any archangels or adversary in any of my posts instead i wrote out passages from the BIBLE (pls refer to the posts again) i repeat all the quotes i made are in the BIBLE not outside of it and they spoke of unwritten teachings.

Like I said above, I see no point in "pondering" extra-curricular material. The Bible is complete, perfect for perfecting children of God in Christ Jesus.
"EXTRA-CURRICULAR MATERIAL"   please read again!!!

Go ahead, shoot!
No way I'm shooting complex BIBLICAL teaching in your direction if you fail in the space of days (weeks really!) to understand SIMPLE teachings as all the above. St. Paul would not expect me to proceed since you are unable to chew these with milk teeth, i can not feed you with solid food.

When you have seen the light and you know the truth and accept the truth, only then will you be saved

but if one choses to ignore the light and use a torchlight instead, then there is trouble,

But the problem is that in the face of glaring evidences, some refuse to accept those facts,
Lordimpaq i share your surprise but i guess it must be expected.

Charlo and davidylan thanx a million for at leasst being able to see!

TV01, God bless you too!

Carlosein:

No way I'm shooting complex BIBLICAL teaching in your direction if you fail in the space of days (weeks really!) to understand SIMPLE teachings as all the above. St. Paul would not expect me to proceed since you are unable to chew these with milk teeth, i can not feed you with solid food.

Please help me leave my childish dietary habits behind and move on to solid food  .

Carlosein:

When you have seen the light and you know the truth and accept the truth, only then will you be saved

But that can't happen if you refuse to shed light (i.e. feed me meat) can it  ?

So sir, it all sounds a bit circular to me. You won't share your deep insights with me, as I am still on milk. But if I see the light, i.e if I come to understanding, then you will enlighten me?

If you have something to share, please feel free to do so. Maybe it will be good for edification, or hep one become more mature. Or maybe after growing some more one will come to the conclusion that  "Carlosein was right all along".

Those who hubristically believe they are the custodians of God's truth, sharing it with whom they see fit, promoting religious caste hierarchies and persecuting those who question or don't submit to them are at the root of all Christianity's problems  .

Thank God for the Holy Spirit. "He will lead me into all truth"

God bless.

TV01, must say this say this discussion is getting out of hand (quite unfortunate won't you agree)

well i apologize for what i posted concerning your biblical dietary habits as you put it. i didn't mean it that way. okay?

also my dismay is in seeing that all through this discourse, from the word go emphasis was placed on "show me this in the bible, show me that in the bible,, "  and i did to show you some of the reasons why catholics believe some of the things they believe in from the bible only to get the responses of "extra-curricular"
well what else is new?

concening the following

When you have seen the light and you know the truth and accept the truth, only then will you be saved

but if one choses to ignore the light and use a torchlight instead, then there is trouble,

But the problem is that in the face of glaring evidences, some refuse to accept those facts,

, you have erronously attributed it to me, if you care to look above you'd find that it was infact posted by lordimpaq and i only made reference to it.

to get this back on course, i just want to ask you a question which i think is a summary of all these postings and squabbles. it is this: from your understanding of the bible (or with reference to the word of God), WHAT IS THE PILLAR AND SUPPORT OF ALL TRUTHS- THE BIBLE OR THE CHURCH?

i look forward to your answer, and once again say am sorry for the misunderstanding.

God bless

Carlosein:

to get this back on course, i just want to ask you a question which i think is a summary of all these postings and squabbles. it is this: from your understanding of the bible (or with reference to the word of God), WHAT IS THE PILLAR AND SUPPORT OF ALL TRUTHS- THE BIBLE OR THE CHURCH?

i look forward to your answer, and once again say am sorry for the misunderstanding.

God bless

First may I commend you for the good spirited way you have engaged in this discussion. Secondly may I apologise if I have given you reason to take offence. Please believe me when I say that was at no time my intention. Apologies also for my sometimes rambuctious literary style.

Having said that, back to the business in hand, which is to answer your question.

~ "THE BIBLE"

Please say on.

God bless

Is this sick thread still on?

CATHOLIC OR NO CATHOLIC ,PENTECOSTAL OR NO PENTECOSTAL ,MUSLIM OR NO MUSLIM AND WHAT HAVE U , THAT IS NOT THE ISSUE.
THE ISSUE IS THIS, HAVE U ACCEPTED JESUS CHRIST AS YOUR LORD AND PERSONAL SAVIOUR??IF NOT THEN U ARE DEFINIETLY OFF D TRACK.
I WILL ADVICE U DO SO NOW!!!!!!!!!!!!! .JESUS LUVS U AND WANTS 2 MAKE D DIFFERENCE IN YOUR LIFE.BE WISE!
LOTS OF LOVE\
ME

Jn3;16 For God so loved the world that HE gave HIS only begotten son that WHOSOEVER believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life!
This cuts accross all religion.it says whosoever.That whosoever could b a catholic,muslim,pentecostal etc the watch word here is whosoever.KEY IN FRIENDS.

All apologies accepted.

If you say that the bible is the pillar and support of truth and not the church, it will go against what St. Paul teaches in the bible itself, which is that the pillar and support of truth is the Church see passage below

Although I hope to come to you soon, I am writing you these instructions so that, if I am delayed, you will know how people ought to conduct themselves in God's household, which is the CHURCH OF THE LIVING GOD, THE PILLAR AND FOUNDATION (SUPPORT) OF  THE TRUTH. 1ST TIMOTHY 3:14-15 (NIV)

need I say anymore?
let me point out to you a function that the bible served to the early christians as evidenced above. the written instructions to Timothy would come into play if St Paul was delayed, hence the bible teachings can not be deemed to be the primary source of teaching(s) superceding the teachings of the church which is the union of all christians under one head (the body of Christ).

I must also be quick to point out that it is not as if the teachings of the church and the bible contradict each other, not at all, instead they are complementary.

finally, let me say that if after reading this you do not yet agree, then my worst fears would have been confirmed as to how you really reason though you seem to have good intentions.

Last word THE PILLAR AND SUPPORT/FOUNDATION OF THE TRUTH IS THE CHURCH!

God bless

@carlosein

then comes the question, which church?

the catholic church claims to be the church in the question, so does all other churches.

or does it refer to the christian fellowship at large, then who are the true christians,

there are christians who don't even know that they are not practising true christianity,

I think he means Christians - that is the Church ("Body of Christ").

Catholicism was the first Church, The rest are all break ups (Remember Henry VIII and divorce).

The Started the whole thing in the first place.

SO THEY ARE THE ORIGINAL CHRISTIANS.

Carlosein:

to get this back on course, i just want to ask you a question which i think is a summary of all these postings and squabbles. it is this: from your understanding of the bible (or with reference to the word of God), WHAT IS THE PILLAR AND SUPPORT OF ALL TRUTHS- THE BIBLE OR THE CHURCH?

Quote
Although I hope to come to you soon, I am writing you these instructions so that, if I am delayed, you will know how people ought to conduct themselves in God's household, which is the CHURCH OF THE LIVING GOD, THE PILLAR AND FOUNDATION (SUPPORT) OF  THE TRUTH. 1ST TIMOTHY 3:14-15 (NIV)

A good attempt to biblically back up your stance sir, and I always appreciate that. But I humbly beg to disagree with your reading of this passage.

Firstly your original question does not align with the passage quoted. Please allow me to explain.

The Bible clearly states two things;

John 17:17 - Sanctify them by Your truth. Your word is truth

John 14:6 - Jesus said to him, "I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me.

As I said before, Jesus is the Living Word

John 1:1 - In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

So, Jesus = Word = Truth  QED.

One more thing,  IMHO, the scripture you quted to buttress your point is better understood as follows;

It is the pillar and support of the truth. Christ on earth was the Truth. (He is so always, but He was so on the earth.) He is now hidden in God. The assembly is not the truth: the word of God is the truth. His word is truth. Truth exists before the assembly; it is faith in the truth which gathers the assembly together. But the assembly is that which maintains the truth on earth.[The presence, then, of the living God, and the profession of the truth, are the characteristics of the house of God. Wherever this assembly of the living God is, wherever the truth is, there is His house.

So sir, kindly hold on progressing this discussion to "Which Church". At least till we are able to properly establish "Which Truth"

As ever, God bless

I dont mind Catholic people, I just cant stand the Catholic Church.

Carlosein:


but by simple historical evidence there is only one church that can infact claim to be the church mentioned by St. Paul and that is the catholic (which name means universal) church.

hi carlos,,

i believe the fact that the catholic church was the universal church, please bear in mind that that same church is the woman in Revelation who is now a LovePeddler,

now that is also another discussion for another day,

didoflex:

Catholicism was the first Church, The rest are all break ups (Remember Henry VIII and divorce).

The Started the whole thing in the first place.

SO THEY ARE THE ORIGINAL CHRISTIANS.

OK, they are the ORIGINAL CHRISTIANS.

Nice of you to put it that way, but the ORIGINAL CHRISTIANS are dead, have decayed and are no more.

What about the Present day?

Just a little deviation from the truth is falsehood.
NOTE: the CHURCH is an assembly of called out ones. The church is not the physical building, its the congregation of people saved by Christ. Are present day catholics saved? do they believe the whole revealed word of God? have they given their lives to Jesus Christ?

Heaven doesnt know who is Catholic or this or that. All those are man-made adjectives which hold no water once you close your eyes in death.

The ultimate question will be:

WHAT DID YOU DO WITH THE DEATH OF JESUS CHRIST?

Church!!

the worst crime against humanity was committed by the catholic church so why won't they break up,

@nkenk b- well said.

@didoflex - catholicism was never the first church if we have to believe the Bible: Acts 14: 23;20:28;
1 Corinth 1:2;Gal 1:13; etc.

To y'all
There are catholics that will make heaven because they live by the word and there are protestants that
that will not make it because of hypocrisy.

Moral: Let's quit this unedifying argument and rather cry as did David in Psalm 138: 23,24.
I bet satan enjoys this acrimony among brethren - SO PLEASE STOP IT!

God bless you all and be cool

I have deliberately not wanted to reply to this topic. But the threat continues to be too annoying. Religion is an individual race where everybody is fighting for heaven. How dare you condemn christians. My friend you better remove the speck in your eye before seeing the one in christians.

Be your self

@ Ceekay

My brother i will advice you that, Christianity is an individual race, ur father is not going to the church for the whole family to enter the kingdom of God but for him and him alone.

Christianity is about personal relationships: with God and with others. When Jesus was asked to summarize his religion, he said that it was loving God and our neighbor. Everything else is a means to that end.


Christianity or not, the target is salvation.

Dont be confused!!!

CAN YOU PEOPLE STOP! ALL THESE ARGUMENTS ARE IN VAIN IF YOU DON'T KNOW CHARITY AND TREAT YOUR FELLOW MAN WITH COMPASSION.

1 Peter 4:8
“But before all things have a mutual charity among yourselves: for charity covereth a multitude of sins.”

Matthew 7:18-23
Jesus said “A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, nor can a bad tree bear good fruit . . . Therefore by their fruits you will know them. Not everyone who says to Me, “Lord, Lord” shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but who does the will of my father in heaven. Many will say to Me in that day, ‘Lord, Lord have we not prophesised in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?’” And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness.”

Matthew 25:34-46
Jesus said “Then the King will say to those on His right hand, ‘Come, you blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world . . . Then He will also say to those on the left hand, ‘Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels. For I was hungry, and you gave me not to eat: I was thirsty, and you gave me not to drink. I was a stranger, and you took me not in: naked, and you covered me not: sick and in prison, and you did not visit me. Then they will also answer Him, saying, ‘Lord, when did we see You hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or sick or in prison, and did not minister to thee? Then he shall answer them, saying: Amen I say to you, as long as you did it not to one of these least, neither did you do it to me. . . “

White roses,

Please where did God say jesus is the only way to him. Study your facts well.

the topic itself does not make sense?

why didnt u ask if pentecostals are christians

B T W what is your definition of christianity?
i think that is were we all miss the point

we are ever ready to make a lot of noise of this and that but make little effort towards keeping to the tenents of our faith

i am a catholic and i am pound and richly blessed to be one
everyday i thank God for making me one and helping me each day to seek in truth and in life
by openng my eyes to his teaching

i can tell u that being a catholic isnt the easiest thing in life since they are no short court to salvation
pple wiil tell u things as they are
and u will be greatly encouraged through prayer grougs which that person belongs

pple always wonder why we say that all catholics must fast on sos so day and do some absitence
but i can tell u that we believe so much in praying in unism

we help others which is one thing i think is very essential in our christian life

basically, i have learnt a lot
i will continue to thank God for opening eyes
i only wish i can be more dedicated