Azibalua:

Yes paul worked but he said

2 Corinthians 11:7
7 Did I do wrong and cheapen myself and make you look down on me because I preached God's Good News to you without charging you anything?

Paul didn't Mary either, he sees it as a distraction. But does that make it a law for every minister? We should know how to balance issues with word of truth. Paul only worked in corinth because of the carnal nature of the corithians. They don't like giving and paul didn't want anybody to look down on him there. He took money from other churches.

EarsWide:

@Mabell

Please lets be sensible. How many of his congregation can buy PLANES ? Is it those that take the 'free' buses to the land of fraud ? Notice that the 'free' is in quotes because those people have paid their tithes and offering so it is just their own money (albeit a much reduced amount of their own money - after the charlatan has taken money to maintain his PLANE).

what  manner  of  small  mindedness  is  this?
Are  you  saying  the  church  of  christ  is  so  small,  poor  and  beggarly  that  her  members  cannot  afford  luxury?
I  don't  know  the  church  you  attend  but  I've  passed  by  churches  during  their  services  and    see  the  big  and  flashy  cars  parked,  I've  also  seen  the  houses  some  members  live  in  and  its  nothing  compared  to  what  their  pastors  live  in.
This  is  just  lack  consciousness  you  exhibit  and  you'll  continue  to  remain  poor  if  you  keep  up  with  this  mindset  of  yours

^^ You, Joagbaje, keep saying it is more blessed to give than to receive but once the issue of 'pastors' comes up, you are quick to say Paul received and above you justify the Corinthian experience. Basically then, your mien is that pastors are to receive so that the world can be blessed. But this is totally unscriptural.

Why cannot your pastors give to the congregation or to society? Why is it the poor lowly congregation that is pushed to give? Why cannot pastor chris give to the poor by telling his congregation to bless the poor directly or by reducing the number of white cars following him around?? Why does he have to be responsible for disbursements for his congregation? Are they "stupid"/"wicked"/etc that they cannot see & know the needy themselves? Or is there something he gains by making sure their money passes through his hands before it "gets" to the poor and needy?

As I have said to you often, Paul said "All things are lawful, but not all are expedient". Why is it suddenly expedient that all monies go through pastoral hands? Why is Paul disregarded in CEC when money is concerned? Which is more important - the words your "Apostle to the Gentiles" spoke OR cold hard cash?

And PLEASE, stop thinking this is about pastor chris - he means almost less than grass to me. This is about Truth AND God Almighty - any man is less than sand before these.

BTW, your people come here and say people have poverty consciousness and are poor etc. Then they tell us they climb Okadas daily. Later, they say it is only because they wanted to win "Souls" that they climbed okadas! Who is being fooled? You leave your Rolls-Royce & climb Okada? Do you people know the world is watching & laughing? We KNOW the truth! The world knows the truth. All the insolent rudeness about poverty is just a reflection of the lives of the paupers who like to project their own lack upon others. Tell your "goats" to stop it - the kingdom of God is not about partying or meat and drink. Your people have exposed themselves as living on hope and in desperation.

Tell your Okada warriors - NOBODY is fooled and you only ridicule yourselves and Christianity.

Joagbaje:

Paul didn't Mary either, he sees it as a distraction. But does that make it a law for every minister? We should know how to balance issues with word of truth. Paul only worked in corinth because of the carnal nature of the corithians. They don't like giving and paul didn't want anybody to look down on him there. He took money from other churches.

All your own na money BTW what are you doing here You no go S.A abi you no get ticket

mabell:

I've passed by churches during their services and see the big and flashy cars parked, I've also seen the houses some members live in and its nothing compared to what their pastors live in.

wetin you dey do for other church members house

@Mabell

I seriously worry about the stuff you people come out with to defend the indefensible - are you saying majority of the christians caught in the prosperity scam are rich ? Your point about seeing expensive cars in churches is ridiculous, in what areas ? Maybe you live in the more expensive parts of town. Go to the other areas and tell me what you see.

nuclearboy:

^^ You, Joagbaje, keep saying it is more blessed to give than to receive but once the issue of 'pastors' comes up, you are quick to say Paul received and above you justify the Corinthian experience. Basically then, your mien is that pastors are to receive so that the world can be blessed. But this is totally unscriptural.

You are wrong  about this because I have often said every pastor ought to first be a giver. Is it every pastor that has a car? Or money. I have  always said  If a pastor doesnt give , he will be broke. He is first a christian. Every christian must be a giver.

Why cannot your pastors give to the congregation or to society? Why is it the poor lowly congregation that is pushed to give? Why cannot pastor chris give to the poor by telling his congregation to bless the poor directly

Don't say what you don't know. How many of his message have you listened  to.  He has talked about helping the poor several times. He has special passion for less priviledged children. He has over 500 of them in lagos alone on scholarship accommodation and daily feeding. The number is increasing by the day. And he encouraged us all to do the same. Saying some of us would have turned out to be on the street like those less privilege children but we were fortunate to have someone help us, But these children should be fortunate to have people like us "

reducing the number of white cars following him around??

What White cars? where does he drive to?

Why does he have to be responsible for disbursements for his congregation?
Are they "silly"/"wicked"/etc that they cannot see & know the needy themselves? Or is there something he gains by making sure their money passes through his hands before it "gets" to the poor and needy?

What disbursement ? Does he disburse money? He has never stopped anyone from giving to the needy. He rather preaches it.

As I have said to you often, Paul said "All things are lawful, but not all are expedient". Why is it suddenly expedient that all monies go through pastoral hands? Why is Paul disregarded in CEC when money is concerned? Which is more important - the words your "Apostle to the Gentiles" spoke OR cold hard cash?

I'm not aware pastor chris collect money to disburse. The ministry is too big for all that. He has people to handle such ministrations if there is need . And if he does it personally, you should rather see it as humility . Paul collected money for disbursement .  What do you say about this scripture?

1Corintians16:1
Now concerning the collection for the saints, as I have given order to the churches of Galatia, even so do ye. 2 Upon the first [day] of the week let every one of you lay by him in store, as [God] hath prospered him, that there be no gatherings when I come. 3 And when I come, whomsoever ye shall approve by [your] letters, them will I send to bring your liberality unto Jerusalem. 4 And if it be meet that I go also, they shall go with me.

And PLEASE, stop thinking this is about pastor chris - he means almost less than grass to me. This is about Truth AND God Almighty - any man is less than sand before these.

It's about him, because you ought to have gotten proper information before you criticise. You don't know the sacrifice and work many are doing.

BTW, your people come here and say people have poverty consciousness and are poor etc. Then they tell us they climb Okadas daily. Later, they say it is only because they wanted to win "Souls" that they climbed okadas! Who is being fooled? You leave your Rolls-Royce & climb Okada? Do you people know the world is watching & laughing? We KNOW the truth! The world knows the truth. All the insolent rudeness about poverty is just a reflection of the lives of the paupers who like to project their own lack upon others. Tell your "goats" to stop it - the kingdom of God is not about partying or meat and drink. Your people have exposed themselves as living on hope and in desperation.

Every christian is supposed to go out and preach the gospel. CEC members that go all out to preach on the street ,in buses, taxi should be commended. That is Christianity. A christian that doesnt preach to others about Jesus is not productive in the kingdom. They are ashamed of him. You should rather get inspired by their testimonies.

Mark 8:38
38 Whosoever therefore shall be ashamed of me and of my words in this adulterous and sinful generation; of him also shall the Son of man be ashamed, when he cometh in the glory of his Father with the holy angels.

Romans 1:16
16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.







[quote][/quote]

Why cannot your pastors give to the congregation or to society? Why is it the poor lowly congregation that is pushed to give? Why cannot pastor chris give to the poor by telling his congregation to bless the poor directly or by reducing the number of white cars following him around?? Why does he have to be responsible for disbursements for his congregation? Are they "silly"/"wicked"/etc that they cannot see & know the needy themselves? Or is there something he gains by making sure their money passes through his hands before it "gets" to the poor and needy?

Sinnce you do not watch tv due to the place you stay am sure you did not watch the beautifully orgarnised reach out Nigeria campaign that took place in this great nation of ours
Well let me help
1. Water projects
2. Ambulances and vehicles donated
3. Computers donated to security agents
And lots more

Also did you not hear of hope Haiti

And I know a lot of pastors who deny their selves a lot of things just to ensure they give to others,


Also recently some of us gave out virtually every thing we did not need anymore to those who have need of them

Wake up god is bigger than you think

Although people try to over-spiritualise it, or even label it a revival, what is happening with the prosperity gospel is easily explained by economics. We wonder why, for example, in Nigeria churches are opening in every street corner.

It's called supernormal profits. When firms enjoy these supernormal profits, others are incentivised to enter the industry to try to acquire some of these profits for themselves.

Some of the things I've heard on the pulpit would put Gordon Gekko's "Greed is Good" speech to shame!

:-x :-x :-x

nuclearboy:

^^ You, Joagbaje, keep saying it is more blessed to give than to receive but once the issue of 'pastors' comes up, you are quick to say Paul received and above you justify the Corinthian experience. Basically then, your mien is that pastors are to receive so that the world can be blessed. But this is totally unscriptural.

To maximise your returns in blessings you need to sow/give unto an anointing which can only be found in a pastor. Other form of giving does not yield as much returns. The act of giving provoke an (otherwise dormant) pastoral anointing resulting in the flow of blessings to the giver.

BTW Jo is not interested in scriptures that will not add value to the pastor's bank account

nuclearboy:

Why cannot your pastors give to the congregation or to society?

Because God gave all born again people the option of material wealth. Pastor don exercise him own option (collect him money), you go and exercise yours The pastor cannot be feeding congregation na when they can easily invoke their own option. Its a simple matter really. The only difference being pastor must collect his own from the congregation while individual members will search for their own outside. Helping the pastor to realise his own will provide direction (if only the giver is spiritual enough to see it) as to the location of his wealth

Azibalua:

Well let me help
1. Water projects
2. Ambulances and vehicles donated
3. Computers donated to security agents

This is corporate social responsibility in action usually a token from the annual profit to make you look good in the eyes of an (otherwise angry) society you are competing with the likes of Exxon, Chevron, Oando, Nestle, First Bank

Claus:

what is happening with the prosperity gospel is easily explained by economics. We wonder why, for example, in Nigeria churches are opening in every street corner.

It's called supernormal profits. When firms enjoy these supernormal profits, others are incentivised to enter the industry to try to acquire some of these profits for themselves.

Make a lot of sense. I guess profit will normalize when the market becomes saturated (when every house on my street ends up as church, including my own ). To survive church will be giving discount to woo members. I can just picture CEC cutting tithe to 9% Though i dont see that happening anytime soon.

@Zikky

I can just picture CEC cutting tithe to 9%   

Abi now, they have to compete - soon they will do 2 months free (tithe 10 times for the reward of 12)

The pastor has the duty to teach his congregation the Word. That word is what they need to reign over every work of the devil. Sickness, poverty and sin.

The pastor is not called to spoon feed people. The early church at the initial stage due to persecution , shared all things together and eat together because they were in hiding. But that was an abnormal situation. Things changed later.

2Thessalonians 3:10
For even when we were with you, this we commanded you, that if any would not work, neither should he eat. 11 For we hear that there are some which walk among you disorderly, working not at all, but are busybodies. 12 Now them that are such we command and exhort by our Lord Jesus Christ, that with quietness they work, and eat their own bread.

Ephesians 4:28
28 Let him that stole steal no more: but rather let him labour, working with [his] hands the thing which is good, that he may have to give to him that needeth.


Some brethren are lazy, this is not Gods will. Thats why a pastor sometimes organise business seminar,empowerment seminar. Teaching the brethren how to start business. Some are bad financial managers , they are taught how to handle money. You don't have to be expensive to look nice. But now if a pastor announce business seminars. Some people that don't know the motive will start criticising. "Money in the house if God ? What is church turning into?"

A pastor is a gift to a congregation to perfect Them in family, business, time management and ministry work. To make them totally productive in life?

Romans 12:11
11 Never be lazy in your work, but serve the Lord enthusiastically.

The best help is to give someone a net and teach him how to catch fishes. That way the man can stand on his own and help others too. Self development and maximising ones potentials is what pple need to know. There are so many lazy christians even when they are given money, they come back broke tommorow cos they have a wrong oreintatation and programming. Poverty is a mind set, nobody with an investment and profit mentality will be a dependant.
There are so many things to do around us to make money, money no go come down from heaven o. Pastor cant be giving bread and tea to brethren everyday, thats even no help sef in the world now.

One thing of note is that the Pastor takes the brethren through the word of God leading them to trust God in all they do. They guide the church via the scriptures ACTS 20:32 SAYS I commend you to God and to the word of His grace that is able to build you up.Thats what the Pastor does.

The gospel is good news, good news of what you may ask
Jesus died for man to have dominion over the devil and his devices
For man to live a life free from suffering

Lu 4:18 The Spirit of the Lord is upon me, because he hath anointed me to preach the gospel to the poor; he hath sent me to heal the brokenhearted, to preach deliverance to the captives, and recovering of sight to the blind, to set at liberty them that are bruised,
(KJV)

The gospel came to address the different needs of the people in their lives, jobs and all that concerns them
For the sick the gospel is divine health, for the poor the gospel is prosperity
Everything man needs is in this gospel so when a man embraces this gospel, he embraces health, prosperity, liberty e.t.c.

Educating people about financial matters is a good thing. Both in and out of church, when you see people being empowered financially, so that they don't have to keep seeking help and can actually turn around to help others, it is a source of joy.

However, that is not the issue at hand. For those of us that stand against this prosperity gospel, the concern is that the main message being sent out to people, regardless of their level of income is to GIVE, especially to their "ministry".

I don't dispute that there are financial or business seminars in church. These are good and I have been to some of them.

However, there is a part of this prosperity message that convinces people that giving to the "ministry" is their way out of poverty, thereby turning the church into some sort of financial investment vehicle.

^^^^
I dont know about that form of prosperity. I personally was not a business person but my mentality changed when i started listening to my pastor, giving has his part but cannot remove the fact that we need to do something with our hands. Right now i make more money from selling shirts and shoes than my salary in the office. I remember my pastor asking a stricking statement, you are making every other person a millionaire by buying from them, what can others buy from you? That statement changed my mentality. God will bless the works of our hands, we need to have something doing for God to bless. A lazy christian will remain poor. When you give doors of making money are open to us, we grab the opportunuties. We cant close our eyes to opportunities and say i gave and nothing happened, giving is not kapukapu. God is not a gambler, abi na bribery and corruption?

EarsWide:

Abi now, they have to compete - soon they will do 2 months free (tithe 10 times for the reward of 12)

Joagbaje:

The pastor is not called to spoon feed people. The early church at the initial stage due to persecution , shared all things together and eat together because they were in hiding. But that was an abnormal situation. Things changed later.

Yes oooo its every man for himself. claim your prosperity, i claim my own, ******** no go vex

mabell:

The gospel came to address the different needs of the people in their lives, jobs and all that concerns them
For the sick the gospel is divine health, for the poor the gospel is prosperity

What about the rich

Claus:

However, that is not the issue at hand. For those of us that stand against this prosperity gospel, the concern is that the main message being sent out to people, regardless of their level of income is to GIVE, especially to their "ministry".

Claus:

However, there is a part of this prosperity message that convinces people that giving to the "ministry" is their way out of poverty, thereby turning the church into some sort of financial investment vehicle.

True talk Claus.

nuella2:

giving is not kapukapu. God is not a gambler, abi na bribery and corruption?

Nice but i have difficulty reconciling to this bit below

nuella2:

When you give doors of making money are open to us

^^^

What i mean is when a christian give, opportunities will be open to him. It could be a business door you never imagined possible coming to you. A contact or contract you didnt ask or struggle to get. It makes life less stressful. Its not kabukabu cos some pple give a particular thing and expect a particular thing, thats wrong. That you gave a car do not mean you will get a bigger car, and the reason for giving a car should not because you want a bigger car thats my point. God can reward you with any other thing. Thats why some pple get frustrated after giving bc they were expecting a particular harvest. Giving is basically an act of worship, love and surrender to God. God owns everything, if he needs anything he will not ask us. But we demonstrate our trust and love for him with our much we give to him.

nuella2:


Giving is basically an act of worship, love and surrender to God.

I certainly agree with this and that's why I believe there should never be coercion when it comes to giving to God.

I have however experienced serious coercion in the ministry I used to attend. This was due to financial targets that had to be met and is one of the pitfalls of this prosperity gospel.

People should be taught to be generous and they will give based on their understanding. Once coercion sets in, it is clear that the giving message is no longer a way to help the individual, it then becomes a form of fund raising!

^^^
Correct. The church of christ is being perfected daily always remember that. In the church i attend if my pastor ever hear that members were forced to give that leader will be in trouble. People should give with a conviction and a willing attitude, when they are forced they start murmuring and complaining and that giving may not be rewarded and that could bring doubt to the message of giving. It works but giving should be based on revelation and conviction.

nuella2:

Its not kabukabu cos some pple give a particular thing and expect a particular thing, thats wrong. That you gave a car do not mean you will get a bigger car, and the reason for giving a car should not because you want a bigger car thats my point. God can reward you with any other thing. Thats why some pple get frustrated after giving bc they were expecting a particular harvest. Giving is basically an act of worship, love and surrender to God. God owns everything, if he needs anything he will not ask us. But we demonstrate our trust and love for him with our much we give to him.

Okay I will flow with you on this one

People get frustrated because they have been taught to expect. Meaning there must be a return from any act of giving. Motive is very important here. You said giving is basically an act of worship, love and surrender to God. Giving in this form does not involve expectations, and that is what true Christian giving is all about. Knowing the damage giving with the wrong motive can do to our Christian brothers & sisters, why dont we preach love instead Giving out of love takes away expectation of possible returns. This way frustration is taken out of the equation, and you are able to appreciate whatever God reward you with

nuella2:

Its not kabukabu cos some pple give a particular thing and expect a particular thing, thats wrong. That you gave a car do not mean you will get a bigger car, and the reason for giving a car should not because you want a bigger car thats my point. God can reward you with any other thing.

My apologies for coming back to this bit It's just that this is contrary to what Joagbje preach around here. According to Jo, you can get what you want, how you want and when you want

nuella2:

^^^
Correct. The church of christ is being perfected daily always remember that. In the church i attend if my pastor ever hear that members were forced to give that leader will be in trouble. People should give with a conviction and a willing attitude, when they are forced they start murmuring and complaining and that giving may not be rewarded and that could bring doubt to the message of giving. It works but giving should be based on revelation and conviction.

That is the key word, "IF". If the pastor ever hears, what if it is the pastor himself coercing people to give. That is the experience I had.

Also, even if we are convinced that a senior pastor would deal with any such incidents, I am not aware, based on the ministry I was in, of any procedure that was defined and well communicated to all members about reporting such abuse.

nuella2:

People should give with a conviction and a willing attitude, when they are forced they start murmuring and complaining and that giving may not be rewarded and that could bring doubt to the message of giving. It works but giving should be based on revelation and conviction.

You are aware of this and you still support the rubbish joagbaje post around here

Giving its a principle, you will certainly recieve an harvest when you give. But you cant tell God the kind of harvest you want to recieve. And there are different kind of givings. The spirit of God can tell someone to sow a seed to come out of something or receive something, thats personal. When ABRAHAM wanted to sacrifice his son, what did he expect? The man trusted God with his all, he was ready to sacrifice anything for God. God looks at our motive and attutude towards giving, he does not need what we got to offer but how we are willing to let go of anything and have him. Like JESUS told the rich man that came to him, Jesus was not against his riches but he wanted to know if he can forsake all just to follow him.

Zikkyy:

You are aware of this and you still support the rubbish joagbaje post around here

I think alot of people misjudge Jo. He has never supported coercing pple to give from the posts he make in nl.

nuella2:

Giving its a principle, you will certainly recieve an harvest when you give. But you cant tell God the kind of harvest you want to recieve. And there are different kind of givings. The spirit of God can tell someone to sow a seed to come out of something or receive something, thats personal. When ABRAHAM wanted to sacrifice his son, what did he expect? The man trusted God with his all, he was ready to sacrifice anything for God.

Abraham was willing to sacrifice his son, WITHOUT EXPECTATIONS.

nuella2:

I think alot of people misjudge Jo. He has never supported coercing pple to give from the posts he make in nl.

Jo supports coercive preaching.

Claus:

That is the key word, "IF". If the pastor ever hears, what if it is the pastor himself coercing people to give. That is the experience I had.

Also, even if we are convinced that a senior pastor would deal with any such incidents, I am not aware, based on the ministry I was in, of any procedure that was defined and well communicated to all members about reporting such abuse.

Alot of people dont know their place in the body of christ. What did you do about a pastor coercing people, did you report to an higher authority or you simply got angry and walked away. See, God gives us opportunities to perfect each other, some1 might be doing that based on i want to hit a target and not thinking of how the pple feel when nobody says anything to him or her. If everybody gets angry and walks away from something we can change with our prayers and reporting the matter. We need more brave pple in the body of christ, pple that can improve lives when they can perfect it. We all have our parts to play. Getting angry and abusing people will not make a different but seeking Gods face on how you can be a change to something that should be changed. Success is impacting your world with your personality, its someone becoming an addition to a person or people.

nuella2:

, giving is not kapukapu. God is not a gambler, abi na bribery and corruption?

What is kapukapu ?  or you meant kalo kalo.