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Does The Hellfire Punishment Make Sense? - Religion (3) - Nairaland

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Re: Does The Hellfire Punishment Make Sense? by sonmvayina(m): 6:05pm On Nov 22
Dtruthspeaker:


The Deceits of Catholic church is so well entrenched in your soul that you are accustomed to blindness, if not you would have seen that Judgment Only Comes After a Trial, Which Only Comes After A Charge or Accusation of the Commission of an Offence is Made.

Therefore, that "From dust .." Judgement belongs to Someone who has been Found Guilty of an Offence, at his Trial.

It is The Law of God that "No Man Can Be Convicted for an Offence, which he has not yet Committed". Not to talk of him being Accused of that which he has not yet done!

This your long epistle no cut am at all, Adam means man and eve means woman, it therefore means that humans has been judged already..from dust they were made, and dust they shall return..any other thing is your delusions..


Keep it up.
Re: Does The Hellfire Punishment Make Sense? by Dtruthspeaker: 6:15pm On Nov 22
sonmvayina:


This your long epistle no cut am at all, Adam means man and eve means woman, it therefore means that humans has been judged already..from dust they were made, and dust they shall return..any other thing is your delusions..

Keep it up.

As I have said before it is Not Possible That A man shall be Judged, Even before he has Committed an Offence.

And this is backed up by the statement

"Doth our law judge any man, before it hear him , and know what he doeth?"

He that answereth a matter before he heareth it, it is folly and shame unto him
Re: Does The Hellfire Punishment Make Sense? by sonmvayina(m): 6:18pm On Nov 22
Dtruthspeaker:


As I have said before it is Not Possible That A man shall be Judged, Even before he has Committed an Offence.

And this is backed up by the statement

"Doth our law judge any man, before it hear him , and know what he doeth?"

He that answereth a matter before he heareth it, it is folly and shame unto him








God has seen and heard all..we are talking about God , not man...

His judgment is death..from dust you were made, and to dust you shall return..for all men and women...

Any other thing is your delusion..and those who wish to control you..
Re: Does The Hellfire Punishment Make Sense? by Hermes119: 6:31pm On Nov 22
truespeak:


First Error is that you are making the Error of Judging Yourself "Faithfull" or asking me, who is also writing the Faithfulness Exam, to Judge You "Faithful".

This is beyond any man's power to so judge himself exactly as a Student passing Judgement on his Exams is not True, but the True Result Proceeds from The Examiner.

And in this case, God is The Proper Examiner who can Rightfully and Truly Declare who has "faithfully served Him".

So, it is He who will Properly Settle All these issues in here, Not I or any man.

Any man who passes Judgment on these issues, usurps the Jurisdiction of The Lord and is a meddlesome interloper!



Same for passing the Judgment of "GENUINE Repentance"

This is the Law - “For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all.”

But it is The Lord Himself who hath Jurisdiction to Judge All these issues, and He Shall So Judge.
Let me rephrase
In the context of the thread,which is to demonstrate the incredibility of the concept of the biblical hell as viewed by most believers as a JUST form of punishment for earthly transgression (you think otherwise) I presented a scenario to counter u view. And I would ask this as a question now

If a person serves your God steadfastly for the majority of his or her life,and by steadfast I mean he is righteous but unfortunately he slips and commits a sin and dies before repenting,where would he go ? . There are only two options

if he goes to HEAVEN then that means that people can go to heaven even though they died in sin,that is not my concern for now
if he goes to HELL,would you consider that fair ?

and vice versa,a murder,rapist,serial killer repents at his deathbed,if God sends him to heaven do you consider that fair especially in light of the first scenario ?


I don't expect you to give an answer that would implicate your faith,the reason I'm taking my time to write these episodes is for those reading,they would decide who is making more sense


ciao
Re: Does The Hellfire Punishment Make Sense? by Hermes119: 6:31pm On Nov 22
Dtruthspeaker:


This is the same question you asked Truespeak and she has done the "Just Is" to it.

Further, I have described how wide and great and multiple and very weighty your offences are above to the justify the Punishment of Lake of Fire!

Christians !!!
Re: Does The Hellfire Punishment Make Sense? by truespeak: 7:03pm On Nov 22
Hermes119:
Let me rephrase
In the context of the thread,which is to demonstrate the incredibility of the concept of the biblical hell as viewed by most believers as a JUST form of punishment for earthly transgression (you think otherwise) I presented a scenario to counter u view. And I would ask this as a question now

If a person serves your God steadfastly for the majority of his or her life,and by steadfast I mean he is righteous but unfortunately he slips and commits a sin and dies before repenting,where would he go ? . There are only two options

grin You've Rung Bell 1 in your Scenario above for Law 1 is Righteousness or Rightness not Wickedness or any evil.

Law 2 is Steadfastness in Righteousness or Rightness, consistently. And a Righteous man knows that, to be Righteous, he must always be Righteous for The Law is - "Be Ye Holy,.."

And this is exhibited by Another Law which Says- "A thing is Only Good, when Every Element in it is Good; It is Bad, when One Element in it is Bad!"

And yet, there are Other Laws, the Righteous man Must Abide with.

However, there is a Gift from The Law, for The Righteous man, which is why we say "we hope on the Mercies of The Lord, who shall blot out all our sins.

And this is The Law of "Blessed is the man, whom The Lord Will Impute No Sin".

Blessed is the man who figures The Accurate why!

Hermes119:

and vice versa,a murder,rapist,serial killer repents at his deathbed,if God sends him to heaven do you consider that fair especially in light of the first scenario ?

I don't expect you to give an answer that would implicate your faith,the reason I'm taking my time to write these episodes is for those reading,they would decide who is making more sense
ciao

cheesy "And if the righteous scarcely be saved, where shall the ungodly and the sinner appear?"
Re: Does The Hellfire Punishment Make Sense? by Dtruthspeaker: 7:10pm On Nov 22
sonmvayina:


God has seen and heard all..we are talking about God , not man...

His judgment is death..from dust you were made, and to dust you shall return..for all men and women...

Any other thing is your delusion..and those who wish to control you..

As I have said these 3 Times, The Lord has Never Judged A matter, Without first hearing it which is the Established Law of Fair Hearing in All the earth!
Re: Does The Hellfire Punishment Make Sense? by Hermes119: 7:20pm On Nov 22
truespeak:


grin You've Rung Bell 1 in your Scenario above for Law 1 is Righteousness or Rightness not Wickedness or any evil.

Law 2 is Steadfastness in Righteousness or Rightness, consistently. And a Righteous man knows that, to be Righteous, he must always be Righteous for The Law is - "Be Ye Holy,.."

And this is exhibited by Another Law which Says- "A thing is Only Good, when Every Element in it is Good; It is Bad, when One Element in it is Bad!"

And yet, there are Other Laws, the Righteous man Must Abide with.

However, there is a Gift from The Law, for The Righteous man, which is why we say "we hope on the Mercies of The Lord, who shall blot out all our sins.

And this is The Law of "Blessed is the man, whom The Lord Will Impute No Sin".

Blessed is the man who figures The Accurate why!



cheesy "And if the righteous scarcely be saved, where shall the ungodly and the sinner appear?"



Simple question I asked you won't answer

Ciao
Re: Does The Hellfire Punishment Make Sense? by LordReed(m): 7:23pm On Nov 22
Dtruthspeaker:


cheesy We already do so, for do we not tell our children to read, burn the midnight oil and forego fun, just so that they may Excel in their Vocations and ARRIVE in A Very Good Place, where they can always be happy forever, freely doing and enjoying All Those Former Things, which they missed during the days of suffering?

Are you serious right now? You are comparing suffering from someone torturing and killing people with the rigors of self discipline? Gosh you guys never cease to amaze. SMH

2 Likes

Re: Does The Hellfire Punishment Make Sense? by Dtruthspeaker: 7:29pm On Nov 22
LordReed:


Are you serious right now? You are comparing suffering from someone torturing and killing people with the rigors of self discipline? Gosh you guys never cease to amaze. SMH

Now you are changing your Post Again, for you said "A man will not do so"

And I have rebutted that men have done Likewise Already!
Re: Does The Hellfire Punishment Make Sense? by truespeak: 7:34pm On Nov 22
Hermes119:


Simple question I asked you won't answer

Ciao

I have answered you by Laying Out the Laws!

But to pass Judgement on my fellow man, that is impossible for me to do. For I am not appointed Judge of the Soul of my fellow man.

And NO MAN has That Jurisdiction to Enter Judgement upon the soul of his fellow man.

So Just Be Patient and wait for the Court, for Surely You Would Not Miss the True Judgement.
Re: Does The Hellfire Punishment Make Sense? by LordReed(m): 7:34pm On Nov 22
Dtruthspeaker:


Now you are changing your Post Again, for you said "A man will not do so"

And I have rebutted that men have done Likewise Already!

You are the one changing things. The example was about a man then you made it about a god and you are now pointing fingers. Self accusation.

2 Likes

Re: Does The Hellfire Punishment Make Sense? by Hermes119: 8:03pm On Nov 22
truespeak:


I have answered you by Laying Out the Laws!

But to pass Judgement on my fellow man, that is impossible for me to do. For I am not appointed Judge of the Soul of my fellow man.

And NO MAN has That Jurisdiction to Enter Judgement upon the soul of his fellow man.

So Just Be Patient and wait for the Court, for Surely You Would Not Miss the True Judgement.

This is not what the conversation was about,you are shifting goal posts

What we are discussing is the irrationality of hell fire as a punishment for finite transgressions

I'm asking you if you consider it fair that a person who has lived by christian values and defaults at the last minute is sent to hell

Let's get some things clear

1) I'm not implying that you are the one doing the judgement
2) The bible makes it clear that sinners would go to hell so I'm assuming that the man(being qualified to be referred to as a sinner) is sent to hell
3) What I need to know is if you consider it fair that such a person is sent to hell

I'm repeating my question severally for emphasis,if you can't provide a simple answer say so. This is not a Sunday school,I don't need your lectures on what righteousness is and what its not,don't emphasize on unnecessary things,just answer my question

Do you consider it fair or not ?
Re: Does The Hellfire Punishment Make Sense? by shadeyinka(m): 8:16pm On Nov 22
VillagePeople11:
There are different punishment for crimes committed, for instance fine, probation, 6months, 1 year, 10 years in jail etc.

Humans with their treacherous heart understands this and frown at any punishment that is too much for the crime committed i.e you shouldn't behead a person as punishment for slapping another person(assault). You don't kill your wife or child for disrespecting you.

Now take a second look at the hellfire punishment, the human lifespan is 80 years, and you have people dying at 15, 30, 50 45 etc. Let take a collection of 20 of these humans and call them sinners meant for hellfire.

Now you throw them into fire, i mean burning flames, and you do not even show them the mercy of dying, you continuously burn them for 1 hour, 10 hours, 24 hours, 3 days, 1 week, 2 weeks, 1 month, 1 year, 10years, the number of years equivalent to how long they lived, still burning, 100 years still burning, 200 years, 500 years, 2 million years, 10 million year.... Let me stop there.

Regardless of everything you have been thought, does the punishment of hellfire make any sense?

cc: lalastilala
On the surface you look like you are making some good sense except that you didn't factor in the fact that in eternity time doesn't exist!

Do you think a righteous God should punish rapists, murderers, evil and all who cause pain for others?

The punishment is a rejection of such kinds of people into God's refuse bin because they have been REJECTED as unsuitable for living in God's kingdom. The place of rejection is called HELL. In hell, the punishment is proportional to the gravity of negative lifestyle of such a person.

Now, about your argument of a man living on earth for a mere 80years while his punishment will last for millions of years. This is an absolute display of ignorance concerning time. TIME doesn't exist in eternity!

Let me explain with an example and analogy to you if perhaps you will be humble enough to understand. An example of our experience where events take place in a timeless environment is in our DREAMS. Within a dream world, you can get pregnant, give birth to a baby and send the child to secondary school. Within the dream space, you feel like it is normal time. But in real solar calendar time, all the dream could be in 5minuites.

In other words, Hell is like being locked in a perpetual NIGHTMARE. It looks real, it feels real (for it is real) but in a realm where time doesn't exist!

If you can't comprehend this, so be it!
Re: Does The Hellfire Punishment Make Sense? by Phraences: 8:32pm On Nov 22
If you read the old testament, yes, it makes sense. The God of the old testament can do something like that. Just because Jesus came, people have forgotten the God of the old Testament. A God that struck someone down because he tried to hold the Ark of the convenant. A God that commanded the Israelites to kill everybody including women and children of some tribes they passed through on their way to the promised land. To that God, we are cockroaches so yes, hellfire makes sense.



VillagePeople11:
There are different punishment for crimes committed, for instance fine, probation, 6months, 1 year, 10 years in jail etc.

Humans with their treacherous heart understands this and frown at any punishment that is too much for the crime committed i.e you shouldn't behead a person as punishment for slapping another person(assault). You don't kill your wife or child for disrespecting you.

Now take a second look at the hellfire punishment, the human lifespan is 80 years, and you have people dying at 15, 30, 50 45 etc. Let take a collection of 20 of these humans and call them sinners meant for hellfire.

Now you throw them into fire, i mean burning flames, and you do not even show them the mercy of dying, you continuously burn them for 1 hour, 10 hours, 24 hours, 3 days, 1 week, 2 weeks, 1 month, 1 year, 10years, the number of years equivalent to how long they lived, still burning, 100 years still burning, 200 years, 500 years, 2 million years, 10 million year.... Let me stop there.

Regardless of everything you have been thought, does the punishment of hellfire make any sense?

cc: lalastilala
Re: Does The Hellfire Punishment Make Sense? by Hermes119: 8:37pm On Nov 22
shadeyinka:

On the surface you look like you are making some good sense except that you didn't factor in the fact that in eternity time doesn't exist!

Do you think a righteous God should punish rapists, murderers, evil and all who cause pain for others?

The punishment is a rejection of such kinds of people into God's refuse bin because they have been REJECTED as unsuitable for living in God's kingdom. The place of rejection is called HELL. In hell, the punishment is proportional to the gravity of negative lifestyle of such a person.

Now, about your argument of a man living on earth for a mere 80years while his punishment will last for millions of years. This is an absolute display of ignorance concerning time. TIME doesn't exist in eternity!

Let me explain with an example and analogy to you if perhaps you will be humble enough to understand. An example of our experience where events take place in a timeless environment is in our DREAMS. Within a dream world, you can get pregnant, give birth to a baby and send the child to secondary school. Within the dream space, you feel like it is normal time. But in real solar calendar time, all the dream could be in 5minuites.

In other words, Hell is like being locked in a perpetual NIGHTMARE. It looks real, it feels real (for it is real) but in a realm where time doesn't exist!

If you can't comprehend this, so be it!

When you say that the punishment in hell is proportional to the gravity of a persons negative lifestyle,is that your personal view or can you support that with scriptural references

I think the Op asked a simple question,based on your understanding of the TIMELESS eternity as it were, do you consider it fair ?

I would also want to know if the TIMELESS eternity is any less of a torment than the Op described
Re: Does The Hellfire Punishment Make Sense? by Hermes119: 8:38pm On Nov 22
Phraences:

If you read the old testament, yes, it makes sense. The God of the old testament can do something like that. Just because Jesus came, people have forgotten the God of the old Testament. A God that struck someone down because he tried to hold the Ark of the convenant. A God that commanded the Israelites to kill everybody including women and children of some tribes they passed through on their way to the promised land. To that God, we are cockroaches so yes, hellfire makes sense.




Does it make sense to YOU ?
Re: Does The Hellfire Punishment Make Sense? by shadeyinka(m): 9:10pm On Nov 22
Hermes119:


When you say that the punishment in hell is proportional to the gravity of a persons negative lifestyle,is that your personal view or can you support that with scriptural references

Luk 12:48: "But he that knew not, and did commit things worthy of stripes, shall be beaten with few stripes. For to whomsoever much is given, of him shall be much required: and to whom men have committed much, of him they will ask the more."

Mat 16:27: "For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works."

Rev 22:12: "And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be."


Hermes119:

I think the Op asked a simple question,based on your understanding of the TIMELESS eternity as it were, do you consider it fair ?
Let me ask you a question.

Is rejection of a bad product by a manufacturer wrong?
Hell is simply a place of rejection.

About Fairness, I can't speak about that for it depends from whose point of view is the so called fairness.
Let me explain:
When I pour Disinfectant into my toilet and I kill in one go 100million bacteria: would you consider it as fair or unfair?

The relative magnitude of gap between a human and a bacteria is so great that it is meaningless to speak about fairness.

If you think that the perceived gap between God and humans is closer than that between humans and bacteria, then we can start debating fairness

Hermes119:

I would also want to know if the TIMELESS eternity is any less of a torment than the Op described
Hell is a place of torment and there is no debate about that.

I have addressed the OP based on his argument that visiting a sin of 80years with a 1million years judgment is unfair.
Re: Does The Hellfire Punishment Make Sense? by sonmvayina(m): 9:12pm On Nov 22
Dtruthspeaker:


As I have said these 3 Times, The Lord has Never Judged A matter, Without first hearing it which is the Established Law of Fair Hearing in All the earth!

My dear, God is not a man or human being, how many times will I tell you this ? Stop using human ways or attributes to define God..God is the creator and not part of creation...

Get sense, it is not rocket science..
Re: Does The Hellfire Punishment Make Sense? by sonmvayina(m): 9:14pm On Nov 22
Phraences:

If you read the old testament, yes, it makes sense. The God of the old testament can do something like that. Just because Jesus came, people have forgotten the God of the old Testament. A God that struck someone down because he tried to hold the Ark of the convenant. A God that commanded the Israelites to kill everybody including women and children of some tribes they passed through on their way to the promised land. To that God, we are cockroaches so yes, hellfire makes sense.




Man is spirit of God (or breath of God) dust of the earth..at death, the simply return to their initial state....so which one is going to hell?

Read psalm 104:29-31 for clarification ..
Re: Does The Hellfire Punishment Make Sense? by sonmvayina(m): 9:18pm On Nov 22
truespeak:


I have answered you by Laying Out the Laws!

But to pass Judgement on my fellow man, that is impossible for me to do. For I am not appointed Judge of the Soul of my fellow man.

And NO MAN has That Jurisdiction to Enter Judgement upon the soul of his fellow man.

So Just Be Patient and wait for the Court, for Surely You Would Not Miss the True Judgement.

To establish a court of law is one of the seven laws of Noah that God gave to Noah...the seven noahide laws..the rest 607 mitzvah is for the Jews.
Re: Does The Hellfire Punishment Make Sense? by shadeyinka(m): 10:46pm On Nov 22
Dtruthspeaker:


What is your True Judgement going to be, on camera with sound microphones, your friend sleeps with your wife, your child complains about it and your friend kills him, your friend goes ahead to use your house as if he owns it, he also rapes your daughter, withdraws your monies in the bank, you inform him that you have the video and records of all his atrocities, yet he Insults you and calls you "a week stupid man, you can't do nothing". Then he goes ahead to begin to sell your properties and squander it on prostitutes while he has turned your wife and children to slaves, whipping and killing them at pleasure, let me stop here.

All these going on for say 80 years, if you had great power, what punishment do you think is just to be meted on this man who has done these things to you personally?
The JWs will say: you should make the man sleep in an unconscious state forever!

Atheists will say: you don't have any power of the dead for the dead are just manure
Re: Does The Hellfire Punishment Make Sense? by shadeyinka(m): 10:49pm On Nov 22
LordReed:


if you had great power why would it take 80years for you to do something about it?
That a wicked man will exhibit his wickedness as an action of his OWN free will!
And
A good man by his own free will will exhibit his goodness in spite of the evil of the wicked man

What is free will when you are prevented of exhibiting your real nature?
Re: Does The Hellfire Punishment Make Sense? by Image123(m): 2:22am On Nov 23
VillagePeople11:
There are different punishment for crimes committed, for instance fine, probation, 6months, 1 year, 10 years in jail etc.

Humans with their treacherous heart understands this and frown at any punishment that is too much for the crime committed i.e you shouldn't behead a person as punishment for slapping another person(assault). You don't kill your wife or child for disrespecting you.

Now take a second look at the hellfire punishment, the human lifespan is 80 years, and you have people dying at 15, 30, 50 45 etc. Let take a collection of 20 of these humans and call them sinners meant for hellfire.

Now you throw them into fire, i mean burning flames, and you do not even show them the mercy of dying, you continuously burn them for 1 hour, 10 hours, 24 hours, 3 days, 1 week, 2 weeks, 1 month, 1 year, 10years, the number of years equivalent to how long they lived, still burning, 100 years still burning, 200 years, 500 years, 2 million years, 10 million year.... Let me stop there.

Regardless of everything you have been thought, does the punishment of hellfire make any sense?

cc: lalastilala

Just to add to what some of the brethren have said and explained, many of us don't factor in and fathom the concept of eternity. You don't hold doctrine in isolation and neglect or disregard other beliefs, conditions and teachings in the same book. It will definitely never make sense to you. Imagine coming into the middle of a class on thermodynamics, or the middle of a session. What is happening will probably not make sense to you. Even those following from the beginning, it has not fully made sense to all of them, how much more someone with missing parts.
Man is created in the image of God. Because of this, we possess something eternal inside us. While we may die, we don't die in the real sense. We continue to exist. Spirits don't die, whether evil or good. Because they all come from God the Father of spirits. Every man has a spirit, call it a soul if that helps you understand better. You can be eternally or partially separated from God, which is the technical bible meaning of DEATH. But you are eternal and anywhere outside God is hell anyway. Nonetheless, anything not of God or meeting the God standard will be thrown into the lake of fire. The lake of fire is an eternal place of torment. You choose to be forever with God. If you don't meet the standard and specification, you are forever outside God. This is the coming reality. Reality is what you face, whether it makes sense to you is largely immaterial. Nigeria makes no sense to millions of people but they have to face it. That's reality for you. Only a fool will not prepare after seeing and being warned of danger. There is need to ESCAPE like the Bible rightly calls the action.
Re: Does The Hellfire Punishment Make Sense? by Image123(m): 2:42am On Nov 23
LordReed:


And all the people suffering in the mean time are inconsequential? And you think that is good? Wow just wow.

Like that silly boy hahn and most of you, you overrate yourself as humans in comparison with God. The weirdness is that you often underrate yourself as humans in comparison with animals. What you fail to keep in account is that time on earth is SOWING time. You don't realize the greatness and awesomeness of God that created the Universe. How often have you given thought to the billions/trillions of plants and animals that die or her consumed yearly. What is man? Don't you realize that earth and humanity is much more insignificant in comparison to a God who made the whole universe? But the whole beautiful story of grace links us with Him.

Can you compare the size of a seed with the tree it produces, it is much much more. Can you compare the tiny micro sperm and egg sown to produce the human body? It is much much more. But you compare your 80year seed to eternity and you say it is unfair or doesn't make sense to you. It may not make sense to you but it is definitely and eerily consistent with nature's reality.
Here in our little atmosphere, you think that's where the world finishes. Those who have gone to ordinary moon that you see from far, they know that things are entirely different there. Most of what matters here doesn't work there. Ordinary footsteps made on the moon over 50years ago are still there because there is no wind there. But someone thinks God has forgotten their actions here and it is not firmly recorded. You are joking. The day of God's wrath is coming. If you like, think it with your myopic prisms. The Person that is in charge of the Universe will think up your seed on that day. i pray it will be a pretty eternity harvest for you all.
Re: Does The Hellfire Punishment Make Sense? by Hermes119: 4:46am On Nov 23
shadeyinka:


Luk 12:48: "But he that knew not, and did commit things worthy of stripes, shall be beaten with few stripes. For to whomsoever much is given, of him shall be much required: and to whom men have committed much, of him they will ask the more."

Mat 16:27: "For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works."

Rev 22:12: "And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be."



Let me ask you a question.

Is rejection of a bad product by a manufacturer wrong?
Hell is simply a place of rejection.

About Fairness, I can't speak about that for it depends from whose point of view is the so called fairness.
Let me explain:
When I pour Disinfectant into my toilet and I kill in one go 100million bacteria: would you consider it as fair or unfair?

The relative magnitude of gap between a human and a bacteria is so great that it is meaningless to speak about fairness.

If you think that the perceived gap between God and humans is closer than that between humans and bacteria, then we can start debating fairness


Hell is a place of torment and there is no debate about that.

I have addressed the OP based on his argument that visiting a sin of 80years with a 1million years judgment is unfair.



Let me save us the trouble of this back and forth as we are already derailing from the point I'm trying to make. Please answer this question and I would indeed love it if u can give me a simple and direct reply.

ASSUMING God seeks your counsel on punishment for sin would you support the hell punishment or suggest something finite and less gruesome ?

Now like your predecessors you can choose to avoid giving a direct answer to the question and rather focus on finding faults in the question and of course the reason is obvious,a direct answer would either implicate your faith or humanity
Re: Does The Hellfire Punishment Make Sense? by Hermes119: 5:03am On Nov 23
shadeyinka:

That a wicked man will exhibit his wickedness as an action of his OWN free will!
And
A good man by his own free will will exhibit his goodness in spite of the evil of the wicked man

What is free will when you are prevented of exhibiting your real nature?

If a man wants to shoot your son,would you prevent him from doing so ?
By so doing aren't you restricting his free will and preventing him from exhibiting his real nature ?
Re: Does The Hellfire Punishment Make Sense? by Hermes119: 5:41am On Nov 23
I wanted to ignore this though but I guess I can reply afterall

Luk 12:48: "But he that knew not, and did commit things worthy of stripes, shall be beaten with few stripes. For to whomsoever much is given, of him shall be much required: and to whom men have committed much, of him they will ask the more."
There is no strong reason to believe that Jesus was directly referring to punishment for sin in hell,you can quote the preceding verses of this passage to convince me otherwise

Mat 16:27: "For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works."

Rev 22:12: "And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be."

Although this unlike the first passage is talking about punishment he shall reward every man according to his works could also be seen to mean,he would send sinners to hell according to their works(evil) and believers to heaven according to their works(good). Again this doesn't unequivocally state that in hell your punishment would be quantified by the level of evil you committed.
I'm not saying you are wrong,I'm saying the passages you quoted can also be interpreted differently and your interpretation doesn't seem to be the most accurate


Let me ask you a question.

Is rejection of a bad product by a manufacturer wrong?
Hell is simply a place of rejection.
If hell was simply a place for rejection there would be no need for this argument, would there ?
The problem is not that hell is a place for rejection, the problem is that it is also a place for unimaginable torture

About Fairness, I can't speak about that for it depends from whose point of view is the so called fairness.
Let me explain:
When I pour Disinfectant into my toilet and I kill in one go 100million bacteria: would you consider it as fair or unfair?

The relative magnitude of gap between a human and a bacteria is so great that it is meaningless to speak about fairness.

If you think that the perceived gap between God and humans is closer than that between humans and bacteria, then we can start debating fairness

Good point,now let me even expand it

I can be justified for killing bacteria even if killing is unfair because its a threat to my life. But supposing I see a cockroach which possess no direct threat to my life,I would kill it because it an inconvenience to me and I consider my comfort to be more important than the life of a cockroach, a lot of people share the same sentiments too. Is that fair ?,to the cockroach I do not think so,if it was sentient and capable of thought it would regard me as wicked and vile. We can even extend the conversation to plants as well since they are living.
The point is this,the animals we kill or "maltreat",at least most of them are incapable of higher reasoning,so they do not recognize what we do to them as unfair,I do not regard it as being unfair either because I do not consider the life of animals to be more important than my comfort.
If you are going to argue that in the same manner you God can met out any level of punishment he so wishes to humans since his comfort is more important than the life and feelings of humans then I can not describe him in human terms and perception of good and evil as GOOD just the same way as I wouldn't regard myself as GOOD in an animals level of understanding of GOOD and EVIL(if at all there is such a thing) and I would definitely not compel it to worship me and love me.
So for you to love and be loyal to a being which can not relate with human feelings and comfort just as we can not relate with the "feelings and comfort" of bacteria is unbelievable to me and its either a borderline case of Stockholm's syndrome or you are coerced into such loyalty to avoid punishment.
However humans can afford to be "cruel" or "unjust" to animals and other living beings because often times we don't have a choice,even they are "cruel" to their likes and no one blames them for ut,but your God is omnipotent and he has alternatives. If I could,rather than kill the cockroach I would simply make it disappear to another location rather than kill the Christmas chicken for meat I would simply make chicken meat appear in front of me. Your God has other options but he chooses to walk the punitive and vindictive route,he does not deserve my admiration.
You can even make the excuse for humans dealing harshly with animals because they do not understand what it feels to be in their shoes,most humans don't even think or care if animals are able to process thoughts of what they go through in the way that humans do,I mean they don't appear to able to do so. But your God has perfect understanding of what humans feel,he was even said to be human at some point,so to subject people to unimaginable pain because of transgressions that we as humans may not even punish them for,I can not regard such a being as Good and worthy of my worship and if it exists I consider it to be (for lack of better words) despiteful
Re: Does The Hellfire Punishment Make Sense? by LordReed(m): 7:11am On Nov 23
Image123:

How often have you given thought to the billions/trillions of plants and animals that die or her consumed yearly.

Quite a bit actually and is one of the underpinnings of why I don't believe a god as you describe exists.
Re: Does The Hellfire Punishment Make Sense? by LordReed(m): 7:15am On Nov 23
shadeyinka:

That a wicked man will exhibit his wickedness as an action of his OWN free will!
And
A good man by his own free will will exhibit his goodness in spite of the evil of the wicked man

What is free will when you are prevented of exhibiting your real nature?

I don't give a rat's arse about free will, I care about making sure my family is safe. I am sure you do to which is why you lock your doors to prevent people freely taking you and your family's stuff.
Re: Does The Hellfire Punishment Make Sense? by truespeak: 7:38am On Nov 23
Hermes119:

This is not what the conversation was about,you are shifting goal posts

What we are discussing is the irrationality of hell fire as a punishment for finite transgressions

Whilst the thread is indeed about the validity of Lake of Fire or otherwise your first comment was not about the validity of it but Expressly about the Judgment I Should Pass on certain types of Persons, duplicated hereunder.

Hermes119:

What of a person who serves God faithfully for over 90% [/b]of his lifetime and them at the very last moments commits a sin like fornication,where does he go HELL

[b]What of murderer,rapist who commits so many heinous crimes for over 90% [/b]of his lifetime but GENUINELY repents at his deathbed,where does he go HEAVEN
[b]Is the above scenario fair to you

In demanding this, you are asking me to Play Judge, which is why I have consistently answered you that No Man has Authority (Jurisdiction) to Judge these matters.

Hermes119:

2) The bible makes it clear that sinners would go to hell so I'm assuming that the man(being qualified to be referred to as a sinner) is sent to hell.

This is the valid issue here.

Just as the Bible Clearly Stated those types of Persons qualified to be Residents of Lake of Fire, and did not Judge Any Specific Person, I too, in following the Bible, Say, any who is a Sinner, should know what awaits him, just as any who plays with electricity, should know what awaits him.

Shall the professional electrician be electrocuted, it is waited, To Be Seen! Shall a baby be electrocuted, it is also waited, To Be Seen!

Hermes119:

I'm repeating my question severally for emphasis,if you can't provide a simple answer say so. This is not a Sunday school,I don't need your lectures on what righteousness is and what its not,don't emphasize on unnecessary things,just answer my question

Do you consider it fair or not ?

During Exams, it is not common sensical to demand from your fellow student, whether another fellow student, who submits his Answer Script has Passed The Exam.
Re: Does The Hellfire Punishment Make Sense? by shadeyinka(m): 7:44am On Nov 23
LordReed:


I don't give a rat's arse about free will, I care about making sure my family is safe. I am sure you do to which is why you lock your doors to prevent people freely taking you and your family's stuff.
You are NOT of God's family.

You are a mere PRIMATE Mammal living on the earth!

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