Abovebonny:


I'm sorry but this is a gross misunderstanding of history, I have read both books and neither of them make reference to Igbo's being under the thumb of the Benin Kingdom.

Asaba lies on the West Bank of the Niger River, and is the largest Igbo town across the Niger.
This means that Asaba is close to the Benin boarder, yet they were never ruled by any Oba and remained an independent Igbo community.
Which part of Igboland did Benin rule? Enugu? Owerri? please talk with historical facts and stop making historically inaccurate claims.

I am aware of Igbo migrations into the Delta and Benin areas, but that is not what we are discussing.

SO Benin and The British Empire are on the same level in terms of empire? since you think size does not matter?
Before The British Empire do you think the small Kingdoms which existed in England were called empires?
The Kingdoms of Wessex, Mercia, Kent, Northumbria etc all existed within Britain at one time... even when all these kingdoms came together to form England, England was still a kingdom.
When England, Scotland, Wales & Ireland became one state, it was still referred to as the "United Kingdom" as it is today.
It wasn't until Britain conquered other nations such as: Nigeria, India, Australia, South Africa, Canada etc that it became THE BRITISH EMPIRE.... so yes size does matter!

Its very simple to understand, in Nigeria there existed small kingdoms such as Benin, Oyo, Nri, Hausa and so forth. The only empire to exist in Nigeria was the Sokoto Caliphate.


Controlling trade in an area does not make you an empire, the Arochukwu-confederation had a monopoly on trade in the east yet no educated person would consider them an empire.

There is no shame in being referred to as a kingdom, all major states and empires began as kingdoms. Benin is one of the kingdoms which make up the state of Nigeria, the same way Wales is one of 4 kingdoms which make up the United Kingdom.... very simple logic to understand.

Asaba in Delta, Onitsha in Anambra, Ikwerre in Rivers, Igede in Benue are few examples of places founded by Benin people.

Below is the oldest eyewitness written historical account of Asaba. in 1875. if you have an older written account to debunk my claim, provide it. the Benin kingdom/empire was far greater than most of you can ever imagined. Those of you that actually know will not admit to it due to inferiority complex.

In case you missed it, it clearly says Asaba history says, they migrated under the sovereignty of the Oba of Benin due to war.

By 16th century (500 years ago) Benin already sent an ambassador to Lisbon in Europe, something no African kingdom/empire had done till then.

IDENNAA:


Point of correction, the chiefdom never extended beyond Bini. As for center of civilization, it's an insult.

Unfortunately for people like you, Benin had already made history and it was documented, there is nothing you guys can do about it. No amount of recent fabrications can change the past. All we need to do is dig into the past to cure your ignorance.

Enjoy the Ine festival of ISSELE-UKU people of Delta state.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E56N6E0Lns8

They have started again oo.

Their small tribe syndrome seems to have kicked hard again oo.


Shall we debunk their delusions again or let it slide this time thus causing them to have something to kill their depressions from prior threads ?? ?? ?? ?? ?? ?? ?? ??

First of all, Asibong Akpan Okon is mistaken about his assertion that a British Governor was responsible for collecting any such statement from the said Alaafin.

The individual who collected and published the cited statement in the 2nd volume of the “United Empire” is the trader, R.E. Dennett.

The key-word used by R.E. Dennett in his report is the English word “tribute”.

Even a basic-level grasp of English makes it clear that the English word “tribute“ has two basic significances:

The Primary Significance (Meaning-1):
A payment made to express gratitude, etc.

The Secondary Significance (Meaning-2):
A payment made to acknowledge conquest, etc.

---

It is noteworthy that there is absolutely nothing in the vast corpus of Bini accounts which states (or suggests) that Benin at any point conquered Ọyọ — despite the apparent tendencies in Bini accounts to lay claims of conquest (although usually falsely) to far & near lands.

Similarly, there is absolutely nothing in the vast corpus of Ọyọ accounts which states (or suggests) that Ọyọ at any point in time was conquered by Benin — despite the clear admissions (in Ọyọ accounts) that early Ọyọ was conquered for a while by some Nupe groups, by some Bariba groups, and by the early Owu kingdom.

In the light of the foregoing, the secondary significance (meaning-2) of “tribute” is not applicable to Dennett’s statement above. Such interpretation has no footing whatsoever in Ọyọ or Bini historical accounts and realities.

Conversely, the primary significance (the “meaning-1) of the English term “tribute”, as is now to be expected, is actually that which is in line with the historical realities of Ọyọ-Benin relations as detailed below

---

R. E. Dennett collected this statement in ca.1911. The “tribute” payment relates apparently to pre-1911.

The relevant historical background which clarifies his significance of this term is hinted in the Journals of the Europeans who explored the interiors of Yoruba-land in the 1800s.

These explorers reached old Ọyọ and actually met the then Alaafin whose vast empire was at the time facing intense rebellion from at least one of its provinces.

In response to these internal troubles, the then Alaafin reached out to other provinces of his empire; his long standing allies; as well as newly emerging allies in order to nip this specific rebellion in the bud once and for all.

One of its allies which Ọyọ reached out to for this specific engagement in the 1800s was some Bariba groups. Another state which it reached out to, for the purpose of this engagement, is the Benin kingdom.

In relation to this outsourcing services, CPT Clapperton hinted in his 1820s Journal that the Alaafin said:

“he wanted nothing, unless it was something that would speedily cause the submission of the rebels. He said that he has sent to his friend the king of Benin for troops to assist him in the war. … In the evening I set off five rockets, which astonished all and frightened away many. The king was sitting under his verandah, and we waited on him to inquire how he liked the rockets; he was quite delighted, and said they should be kept for [the] war.”

Captain Clapperton & Richard Lander, “Journal of a Second Expedition Into the Interior of Africa,” (1829), p. 41.

In the light of this foregoing historical information (as well as in the light of the fact that any supposed Benin conquest of Ọyọ is an historical fallacy); the first significance (meaning-1) of the term “tribute” then is what is meant in Dennett’s statement.

In other words, the outsourcing services which the above quotation from Clapperton’s journal indicated wasn’t free of charge after all.

In sum, the English term “tribute” as used by Dennett in his c.1911 report is in the primary sense of the term as opposed to the secondary sense.


Cheers.

Having clarified the foregoing, I’d similarly tease the boundaries especially for the purpose of putting the information out there.

Bishop Crowther states the following in a report to T. J. Hutchinson:

The Yoruba “at one time ... were all tributaries to one Sovereign, the King of Yoruba [“i.e. Oyo”], including Benin on the East, and Dahomey on the West”.

Reference: S. Crowther to T. J. Hutchinson, 10 Sept. 1856 (C.M.S. Archives, CA2/031a) quoted in R.C.C. Law (1973), p.216.

To be fair however, the emeritus professor of African and Yoruba history — Professor S. Adebanji Akintoye, among others, have asserted that:

“The claim that the Oyo Empire included Benin is certainly an exaggeration, but [that] it did have its northern boundary on the River Niger and its southern boundary on the Atlantic Ocean”.

Reference: “A History of the Yoruba People”, 2010, Amalion Publishing, p. 249.

—————————
Having said that, this is obviously not to say that Oyo and Benin were equally as powerful at every period throughout the centuries of their respective reigns.

Rather, they each had their respective highs and lows at different periods in the course of the centuries of their respective reigns.

Oyo’s power and influence, however, did eclipse that of Benin at various times especially during the period of Benin’s history when Benin kingdom was grounded & ravaged as its capital was sacked and reduced to a mere village.

In their joint publication, Ben-Amos and Thornton cited the relevant eyewitness accounts which corroborate this historical fact. They noted that:

“Towards the end of the seventeenth century,* a number of European observers noted that the Edo Kingdom of Benin* had been racked for some years by civil war. One of the longest accounts, that of David van Nyendael, reported that as a result of this civil war, Benin City had been sacked and in his day (1699-1701) was reduced to a ‘mere village’*.”

Reference: Paula Ben-Amos Girshick & John Thornton: “Civil War in the Kingdom of Benin, 1689-1721: Continuity or Political Change?”, Journal of African History, 42 (2001), p. 353.

——————————
In sum then, the above account of Bishop Crowther along the lines that Benin paid tributes to Oyo appears to be in relation to the above-described crisis years in Benin kingdom — that is; from 1699-1721, which interestingly coincides with the period of Oyo’s highest imperial domination and expansion.

Such tribute payments, in this context, would thus have been to prevent its already ravaged self from additional troubles in the form of external incursions from an ever-expanding power from the west.

However, as has already been shown, the issue of its paying tributes to Oyo — in this context — is not a sufficient condition to lead one to conclude that it was part the Oyo Empire.

Cheers.

(1) Regarding the age of the Ife settlement w.r.t. Benin, it is an absolutely laughable ignorant falsehood to say that Benin predates Ife or that Ife wasn’t settled prior to the 1500s.

(A) Some radio-carbon dates of Ife potsherd pavements (or “street tiling” in modern terminology) at Ita-Yemoo, Ife as obtained by Frank Willett goes back to as early as circa 960CE.

(B) Some radio-carbon dates of charcoal samples from Orun Oba Ado as obtained by Frank Willett goes back to as early as circa 560CE.

(C) In his 1969 report of a preliminary archaeological survey of Ife, Paul Ozanne finds that many settlements were already established in Ife by circa 350BCE.

I would wait to see his evidence for how Benin was settled prior to Ife. Joke of the century.

———————————
(2) Regarding the sorrowful rant that there was no classical relationship between Ife and Benin, well this has been debunked as an ignorant falsehood many times on Nairaland.

See any of the two links below for some examples of such refutation:

https://www.nairaland.com/6234931/why-ikwerres-not-igbo-logic/9#96323798

https://www.nairaland.com/6087424/benin-ife-myth-shouldnt-circulated#93803726

Having said that, the allusion to A.F.C. Ryder is not only a warped one but also an ignorant one as is to be seen below:

Ryder never claimed to have any evidence of no classical Ife-Benin relationship. Rather he simply questioned the widely acknowledged relationship and proposed his undecided alternative — an hypothesis which has unfortunately yielded zero result even till date.

In fact, four years after his hypothesis, Ryder is reported in a joint publication by Professors Elizabeth Allo Isichei & Peter Uche Isichei to have abandoned the hypothesis. The authors note in this regards as follows:

“It is noteworthy that Ryder, who questioned the Ife connection and argued the case for linkages with a northern kingdom, abandoned the line of argument in his later book, Benin and the Europeans.”

Reference: Elizabeth A. Isichei & Peter Uche Isichei, “A History of Nigeria”, Longman (1983), Volume 2, p. 137. [You may click on the bolded word “Reference”]

Moreover, even if Ryder had failed to retrace his steps, his mere undecided questioning does absolutely nothing to overturn the corpus of evidence upheld by almost every single scholar on the subject.

A remarkable example of the many scholarly devastating refutations which trailed Ryder’s hypothesis was from Professor Robin Horton in his “Ancient Ife: A Reassessment”.

See the link below for my excerpt of relevant quotations from the work showing how Ryder’s hypothesis was debunked:

https://www.nairaland.com/6048841/how-unveil-promote-ancient-igbo/55#93649575

—————————
(3) The idea that the Binis settled in Lagos via a military invasion; or that the progenitor of the present-ruling dynasty of Lagos island is a Bini blood have both being debunked in the link below:

https://www.nairaland.com/6286709/ijebu-vs-jebusite/1#96593783

Moreover, the idea that Benin ruled over some Yoruba frontier territories to its west has also been debunked in the link below:

https://www.nairaland.com/6234931/why-ikwerres-not-igbo-logic/15#96519494

Cheers

TAO11:
They have started again oo.

Their small tribe syndrome seems to have kicked hard again oo.


Shall we debunk their delusions again or let it slide this time thus causing them to have something to kill their depressions from prior threads ?? ?? ?? ?? ?? ?? ?? ??

Drop it, drio everything you got we aren't coward
I decided to stay clear

The moment you go silly, you would regret it bro


Someone just confirmed youre gay disgusting

samuk:


Unfortunately for people like you, Benin had already made history and it was documented, there is nothing you guys can do about it. No amount of recent fabrications can change the past. All we need to do is dig into the past to cure your ignorance.

Enjoy the Ine festival of ISSELE-UKU people of Delta state.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E56N6E0Lns8

If you like post any senseless material all you like but you have no single evidence that Bini was not a chiefdom. You never built an empire and as time goes you will get this. By the way , you Bini practiced our four market days yet you spoke Bini. Issele Ukwu are eternally Igbo and there is nothing you nor them can do about it....lmao. They are becoming even more centrally Igbo as we speak. Give up!

gregyboy:



Drop it, drio everything you got we aren't coward I decided to stay clear
The moment you go silly, you would regret it bro

Someone just confirmed youre gay disgusting

is tao male

TAO11:
They have started again oo.

Their small tribe syndrome seems to have kicked hard again oo.


Shall we debunk their delusions again or let it slide this time thus causing them to have something to kill their depressions from prior threads ?? ?? ?? ?? ?? ?? ?? ??

what do you mean by small tribe syndrome or you just want to spark up your usual baseless claim which I have always treated ?

Etrusen:




is tao male

Yes her brothers confirmed it to me

gregyboy:


Yes her brothers confirmed it to me

OK her brother is omolofin?

Etrusen:




OK her brother is omolofin?

Nope that is one of her third dunce account

samuk:


Asaba in Delta, Onitsha in Anambra, Ikwerre in Rivers, Igede in Benue are few examples of places founded by Benin people.

Below is the oldest eyewitness written historical account of Asaba. in 1875. if you have an older written account to debunk my claim, provide it. the Benin kingdom/empire was far greater than most of you can ever imagined. Those of you that actually know will not admit to it due to inferiority complex.

In case you missed it, it clearly says Asaba history says, they migrated under the sovereignty of the Oba of Benin due to war.

By 16th century (500 years ago) Benin already sent an ambassador to Lisbon in Europe, something no African kingdom/empire had done till then.

So, Bini people founded Asaba and Onicha...lmao. If you like send Ambassador to moon but you can't grow taller than you are. Asaba and Onicha has absolutely nothing in common with you Bini. Not in culture, in looks, in language or any danm thing. These places even the inferior Ikwerre are traditionally Igbo in all ramifications. You are a Yoruba sub tribe!

Sarcasm........

gregyboy:



Benin Kingdom is edo people

Benin empire is outside edo, kogi, delta lagos, ogun, osun ondo, ekiti

Now you can use yout brain

gregyboy:



Benin Kingdom is edo people

Benin empire is outside edo, kogi, delta

lagos, ogun, osun ondo, ekiti

Now you can use yout brain

Stop this rubbish now!

samuk:


Below is how the Alaafin of Oyo described the Oba of Benin in time past.

The Alaafin in 1911 seems to have provided his own idea of the power the kings of Benin had once held, from an African (Oyo Yoruba) perspective.

Anyway, the statement from Clapperton:

1. "In the evening we had a visit from the king (Alaafin of Oyo), to thank me for the presents I had given him, and again to assure me of being welcolme; said that he wanted nothing, unless it was something that would speedily cause the submission of the rebels. He said that he had sent to his friend the king of Benin for troops to assist him in the war."

- Hugh Clapperton, Journal of a Second Expedition Into the Interior of Africa, from the Bight of Benin to Soccatoo


2. "The kingdom of Benin was so powerful that the Alafin of Oyo, the head of the Yoruba people, told a British governor that even his predecessors had to pay tribute to its king." - Asibong Akpan Okon, The evolution of self-government of Nigeria (1955), p. 36

Asibong Okon was referring to this:

"This Kingdom of Benin was at one time so powerful that the Alafin of Oyo, the head of the Yoruba people, told me that even his predecessors had to pay tribute to its King." - United Empire, Volume 2 (1911), p. 620

https://books.google.com/books?newbks=1&newbks_redir=0&id=AE45AQAAMAAJ&dq=predecessors+pay+tribute

Ehhhh....

samuk:


Below is how the Alaafin of Oyo described the Oba of Benin in time past.

The Alaafin in 1911 seems to have provided his own idea of the power the kings of Benin had once held, from an African (Oyo Yoruba) perspective.

Anyway, the statement from Clapperton:

1. "In the evening we had a visit from the king (Alaafin of Oyo), to thank me for the presents I had given him, and again to assure me of being welcolme; said that he wanted nothing, unless it was something that would speedily cause the submission of the rebels. He said that he had sent to his friend the king of Benin for troops to assist him in the war."

- Hugh Clapperton, Journal of a Second Expedition Into the Interior of Africa, from the Bight of Benin to Soccatoo


2. "The kingdom of Benin was so powerful that the Alafin of Oyo, the head of the Yoruba people, told a British governor that even his predecessors had to pay tribute to its king." - Asibong Akpan Okon, The evolution of self-government of Nigeria (1955), p. 36

Asibong Okon was referring to this:

"This Kingdom of Benin was at one time so powerful that the Alafin of Oyo, the head of the Yoruba people, told me that even his predecessors had to pay tribute to its King." - United Empire, Volume 2 (1911), p. 620

https://books.google.com/books?newbks=1&newbks_redir=0&id=AE45AQAAMAAJ&dq=predecessors+pay+tribute

Ehhhh....

Balogunodua:


Ehhhh....

Good!

cc: Balogunodua

TAO11:
The report was not from Hugh Clapperton. However, I have addressed the report above for clarification. You may remove your comment here because he would more than happy to cling to such distractions.

Right.....

But let him try...

Balogunodua:

Right.....

But let him try...

Great!
cc: Balogunodua

Balogunodua:

My yoruba brother's always wish they can change the hands of time

TAO11:
Great!
cc: Balogunodua

There is absolutely no basis to compare historical achievements of Benin to Yoruba.

Benin historical achievements and accomplishments are not in the same class with that of Yoruba.

If you think there is, we can start the debate and I will allow you to choose the timeline we will start from and all evidence from both of us will be based on eyewitness accounts of each period not some interpretations of events or artworks or text which can be disputed with other interpretation of the same events.

I suggest we start from the 1400s but if you think we can go earlier than this dates, you are welcome. Each kingdom, town or place have to be specifically named. Ife has to be Ife, Benin has to be Benin, Oyo has to be Oyo and Ijebu has to be Ijebu or something close enough that there will be no doubt that the text or name refers to such place.

No myths is allowed.

I will allow you to access historical materials of all Yoruba kingdoms in support of your arguments against Benin.

Other Yorubas are allowed to help you out.

Let the debate begin.

Please choose you timeline and present your Yoruba historical achievements for debate.

Bonus: I am ready to offer you $1000 if you are able to provide eyewitness written historical accounts of Benin/Ife relationship earlier than 1800s.

Please don't keep waiting for too long because I have other important things to do.

IDENNAA:



So, Bini people founded Asaba and Onicha...lmao. If you like send Ambassador to moon but you can't grow taller than you are. Asaba and Onicha has absolutely nothing in common with you Bini. Not in culture, in looks, in language or any danm thing. These places even the inferior Ikwerre are traditionally Igbo in all ramifications. You are a Yoruba sub tribe!

This one is in severe pain.

samuk:


Asaba in Delta, Onitsha in Anambra, Ikwerre in Rivers, Igede in Benue are few examples of places founded by Benin people.

Below is the oldest eyewitness written historical account of Asaba. in 1875. if you have an older written account to debunk my claim, provide it. the Benin kingdom/empire was far greater than most of you can ever imagined. Those of you that actually know will not admit to it due to inferiority complex.

In case you missed it, it clearly says Asaba history says, they migrated under the sovereignty of the Oba of Benin due to war.

By 16th century (500 years ago) Benin already sent an ambassador to Lisbon in Europe, something no African kingdom/empire had done till then.

What a joker!!.....Bini founded The Americas as well

Bini founded all these places and couldn't rise beyond its current status of minority among minority tribes chai

IDENNAA:


If you like post any senseless material all you like but you have no single evidence that Bini was not a chiefdom. You never built an empire and as time goes you will get this. By the way , you Bini practiced our four market days yet you spoke Bini. Issele Ukwu are eternally Igbo and there is nothing you nor them can do about it....lmao. They are becoming even more centrally Igbo as we speak. Give up!

Benin can't prevent anyone from telling their history and practising their culture. There is nothing you or even Benin can do about ISSELE-UKU claiming Benin. Learn to live with it.

IDENNAA:
[s]


So, Bini people founded Asaba and Onicha...lmao. If you like send Ambassador to moon but you can't grow taller than you are. Asaba and Onicha has absolutely nothing in common with you Bini. Not in culture, in looks, in language or any danm thing. These places even the inferior Ikwerre are traditionally Igbo in all ramifications. You are a Yoruba sub tribe![/s]

U are typing this in tears

If u are sure of what u are saying, bring ur facts and stop crying on this thread

PS: I'm still waiting for the account where Erediuwa said that Benin were afraid of the Igbos

Obalatule:
What a joker!!.....Bini founded The Americas as well

Bini founded all these places and couldn't rise beyond its current status of minority among minority tribes chai

Go and hide somewhere. Tao your master has been challenged to historical contest. If you don't have anything meaningful to contribute please park to one side.

samuk:


This one is in severe pain.

You are the definition of pain and insecurity, Bini is a Yoruba sub-tribe even your Oba acknowledged this publicly


Do you guys really need to always put yourselves through this painful trashing at the hands of the yorubas all the time?

samuk:


Go and hide somewhere. Tao your master has been challenged to historical context. If you don't have anything meaningful to contribute please park to one side.

You have nothing to say apart from wailings and infantile tantrum-throwing.

Your Oba opened his mouth waaaa!! Like a squealing pig and declared he descended from ile-ife

Shame suppose catch Una small chai

IDENNAA:


If you like post any senseless material all you like but you have no single evidence that Bini was not a chiefdom. You never built an empire and as time goes you will get this. By the way , you Bini practiced our four market days yet you spoke Bini. Issele Ukwu are eternally Igbo and there is nothing you nor them can do about it....lmao. They are becoming even more centrally Igbo as we speak. Give up!

Point of correction... U copied it from us