The Ijebu Vs Jebusite - Culture (2) - Nairaland
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The Ijebu, The Yoruba And Their Influence On The Bible And Judaism / Fact About The Ijebu-ode / Igbo-ona, Ijebu-igbo, Igbomina: Are Yoruba's Historically Tied To Igbo's (2) (3) (4)
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| Re: The Ijebu Vs Jebusite by TAO11(f): 12:56am On Nov 30, 2020 |
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| Re: The Ijebu Vs Jebusite by TAO11(f): 1:46am On Nov 30, 2020 |
To give a quick background on the historical connection between Lagos and Benin: Except among historians, what the average person [Yoruba or non-Yoruba] knows about the Benin-Lagos relationship is that an Edo/Bini prince is the progenitor of present-day Lagos [Lagos Island] kings. This narrative has become so popular and widespread that it has become accepted even by many Yorubas as if it is the historical reality. What is actually very shocking to find, however, is that historians have named this particular narrative as: the Benin account. But why did historians give it such a name? Isn’t this narrative the correct and factual historical position? Well, historians have so named this narrative because, unlike the general public, they (the historians) are aware of the fact that this narrative is simply one narrative which had actually originally emerged from the Binis. In other words, there is another narrative which is known unfortunately (almost) only by historians, and which differs from the Benin’s narrative in very important respects. This other narrative is known by historians as: the Lagos account. Yes, it is unfortunately not as widespread as the Benin account. The Benin account became so popular that it has found acceptance by laypersons or non-historians who are completely oblivious of the fact that there is something as a Lagos account. Yes, I can imagine what you may be thinking: That perhaps the Lagos account is a latter-day account which simply came up in reaction to the Benin account. Guess what! The reverse is actually the case. The Benin account [which claims, among other things, that the Binis settled in Lagos via a military conquest; and that the present-day monarchy of Lagos Island was begun by an Edo/Bini prince] first surfaced from Benin in a publication of Chief Egharevba in the year 1952. On the other hand, the Lagos account have long been published by Rev J. B. Wood in 1878; by Rev. J. B. Losi in 1914; and also by the then Governor of Nigeria, Sir Alan Burns in 1929. [The attachment below shows page 43 from Sir Alan Burns’ publication, viz. “History of Nigeria”, 1929]. In other words, decades before the Benin account ever surfaced for the first time, the Lagos account had already been collected and published. It thus becomes clear, at this point, which account was in fact a reaction to the other. The Lagos account states clearly that although the Binis desired to settle in Lagos [like many other groups], the Binis continued to attempt it the wrong way until they finally got the message. They had been attempting for some time to settle in via force so as to take control of the quite rapidly booming European coastal trade, etc. They were, however, so repelled by the Aworis that they eventually got the memo and then resorted to seek permission to settle in peacefully just like others were doing. The Binis were thus granted permission to settle on Lagos island and occupy a designated area — the permission was granted by the Awori islanders whose king (who used to control the Iddo island and Lagos island, et al.) was the then Olofin of Iddo. Moreover, the Lagos accounts also states clearly that the progenitor of the present ruling dynasty of Lagos Island is a Yoruba man by the name Ashipa. Ashipa (according to the Lagos account) is an Awori man and one of the Isheri chiefs of Ife royal descent — he is a member of the Olofin of Isheri’s family. Ashipa is said in the Lagos account to have initiated a patron-protegé pact with the powerful king of Benin thus gaining his back to establish an independent monarchy from that of Iddo. As a result of the success, the Benin king and people earned Ashipa’s unwavering loyality — hence his remittances to the King of Benin which then continued into a custom among other customs consequent to the success of the pact. The attached screenshot below shows the Lagos account as contained in page 35 of Sir Alan Burns’ “History of Nigeria”, 1929. Now that you know better @tollyboy5, please do not join them in popularizing Egharevba’s propaganda which was simply a reaction to this much earlier account. In sum, the Benin account which claims that Ashipa [spelt as “Esikpa” by Egharevba] is a Bini man, and that the Binis settled on the island via military conquest is in fact the latter-day account which as has been shown is in stark conflict with what the Lagos account had stated decades earlier in clear and unequivocal terms. Cheers! 31 Likes 14 Shares
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| Re: The Ijebu Vs Jebusite by tollyboy5(m): 4:50am On Nov 30, 2020 |
TAO11:I've not always accept the notion of Benin ruling Lagos. That's why I decided to speak for my part of Lagos. I've always know that there is no time ijebu has ever been under Benin kingdom. Now I know better. I'm going to follow you and more reasonable research. This yeye people and ready to force their fake history on us. 2 Likes |
| Re: The Ijebu Vs Jebusite by JohnSin97: 5:06am On Nov 30, 2020 |
The general public should note that tollyboy5 is a ret@rded imposter from Igbo land claiming to be ijebu, ignore the brainlet and his stupid agenda. gregyboy is another stupid ret@rded impostor claiming to be edo but peddling stupid falsehood around... the bastard is Igbo, an Ipob specie to be precise. It's pathetic that Igbos out of desperation and inferiority complex have decided to go around peddling falsehood about the Yoruba culture all while their culture gradually goes into extinction... totally pathetic and disgraceful Kindly avoid their stupidity.
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| Re: The Ijebu Vs Jebusite by TAO11(f): 5:21am On Nov 30, 2020 |
Having discussed the foregoing, a go-to propaganda which I anticipate from certain Benin Nairalanders are the “Lago” report which written by a certain German, Andreas Joshua Ulsheimer in 1603. The relevant parts of the report to which these Binis love to cling to read as follows: "Forty miles from Benin lies a large town called Lago, which also belongs to the King of Benin. It lies on an island and is a frontier town, surrounded by a strong fence. In it live none but soldiers and four military commanders, who behave in a very stately manner. Every day they come together in the king's house and make a sacrifice every morning. After the sacrifice, they hold court in the open air, in front of the king's house. Whoever has anything to complain about makes his complaint. They all fall on their knees when they present their case, and when one man is given a verdict in his favour, he thanks the authorities and the king. Also, two envoys always stand with the judge and listen to what is done. Every day these two send news off to the king, informing him of what the judges have done that day. They do this throughout the whole year. This is practiced not only in Lago, but also in other towns of the king, as well as in Benin itself. Many people come to the aforesaid town Lago, by water and by land, with their wares, which consist of beautiful cotton cloths woven in all kinds of colours and patterns.” ~ Andreas Ulsheimer's Voyage of 1603-4. Sit back, relax, & enjoy the clear, step-by-step analysis of the nuance and salient points in the passage. (1) This report was written by A. J. Ulsheimer who was the surgeon for a trade voyage that visited the coast of west Africa between late-1603 and early-1604. (2) His report doesn’t say a word about present-day Lagos as a whole. Instead, his report relates only to one of the islands of present-day Lagos. Nothing is said about the other islands, or the mainland, or elsewhere. This fact is clear from the words: “It lies on an island”. ~ Refer to the passage for this line and its context. (3) His report indicates that on this very island alone, there are more than one town. And he named out one of these towns (on this very island) as “Lago”. These facts are clear from the words: “Many people come to the aforesaid town Lago, by water and by land,”. ~ Refer to the passage for this line and its context. Town Lago is a town located on an island. An island is surrounded by a water-body. As such, whoever comes to that town “Lago” by water must have paddled (or swam) from some other town which is not on that same island. However, whoever comes to that town “Lago” by land must have walked (or rode) from other town/s which are located on that same island. His report clear says people also came to town “Lago” by land, this thus means that there are other town/s on that same island. (4) Ulsheimer’s report notes that this specific town Lago belongs to Benin. ~ Refer to the passage for this line and its context. Did Benin come to acquire their portion of that island by virtue of some aboriginal right, or by forceful take over, or by conferment from the native owners? Considering each of these above means of ownership in turns: (A) Whether or not Benins’ ownership of their portion of that island resulted from some aboriginal right is silent from Ulsheimer’s report. However, both Lagos and Benin traditions admit that this island (and beyond) is the aboriginal property of the Aworis. As such, their later ownership of their portion of the island was clearly not as a result of some aboriginal right. They’re not the aboriginals of that specific area. (B) Did Benin’s ownership of its portion of that island result from a forceful take-over? Firstly, it must stressed that as at the time of his visit to the coast of West Africa (sometimes between late 1603 & early1604), Ulsheimer found that the Benins were already settled on the island — specifically in their portion of the island, i.e., in town “Lago”. In other words, he did not witness how their predecessors originally came from Benin to settle on that island in the mid/late-1500s. In fact, as at the time of his visit, the Benins had long built their portion of that island into a strong-walled town which also has a working, year in, year out internal political/religious system. Ulsheimer therefore could not possibly have given an eyewitness account of how those Binis’ predecessors settled into that island originally in the 1500s. Although he met them there living as an armed unit in 1603-4; this living condition of the year 1603-4 does not provide any useful information as to how their predecessors originally settled in there in the 1500s. It is very likely that their living condition of 1603-4, was in response to a relatively new development which requires nothing but a military response. Is there any corroboration, from Ulsheimer’s report, for this being the case?? The answer to this question is a big, fat YES!  On page 24 of the same material, Ulsheimer alludes to another Benin-settled town (different from Lago). The location of this second town is unspecified except that it appears (from Ulsheimer’s report) that it also lie somewhere near the Atlantic coast, but closer to Lagos region than to Benin region. The report continues to say that the subjects there (unlike those at town Lago) had rebelled against their oba — their Benin king. As a result, the subjects at the town Lago were tasked with the duty of returning them back to status quo. This report continues to show that those subjects at Lago (acting on behalf of their oba) asked Ulsheimer’s team for assistance when his trading team arrived at the Lagos region. They approached his team for help because they had not been able to conquer the said Benin-settled rebel town prior to his (and his team’s) arrival. The Binis of Lago had particularly found it difficult to conquer this second town because it is also a walled town like town Lago, and the Binis of town Lago have no canons. In any case, it is impossible to know how precisely the predecessors settled there in the 1500s based on the living formation of the successors of c.1603. As has just been recalled from page 24 however, the only event specified in the text as a plausible reason for their successors’ military-life formation in c.1603 is the task that they must return a certain Benin town (which had recently rebelled) back to status quo. This foregoing indication from Ulsheimer’s report is in clear and almost shocking agreement with Lagos traditions which was first recorded about 200 years later. Lagos traditions maintain that that the Binis settled in the island peacefully & amicably after having gotten permission to land from the native owners. The Lagos accounts continue that that it was not until some time long after they had settled peacefully that they now began to be involved in some skirmishes. The following is a quotation of the Lagos accounts as may be seen in the publication of a British officer: “Some little time after the Olofin's death there began the peaceful penetration into Lagos of settlers from Benin. The Binis probably realised that they would not be able to occupy Lagos by force, as they had already been so decisively beaten in their attacks on Iddo, and it is thought that they were also prevented from further aggression by superstitious fear, the dying wife of the Olofin having pronounced a terrible curse on any further invaders from Benin. Whatever may have been the reason, the Binis arrived with no great show of force, and permission was asked of the Lagos people for them to land. This permission was granted, probably with no very good grace, although at that time Lagos island was very sparsely inhabited and there must have been room for many more settlers. … Some time after, the Binis began to attack the people on the mainland, and the leader of one of their marauding parties dying at Isheri, his remains were conveyed to Benin by one of the Isheri chiefs named Ashipa, who was anxious to secure the favour of the powerful King of Benin. ” ~ Sir Alan C. Burns, “History of Nigeria,” 1929, p.43. SUMMARY The Benin’s ownership relates (not to the island as a whole, but) to a portion of it which was conferred to it by the native owners themselves. This is what is meant when Ulsheimer’s account says that the town Lago (a portion of today’s Lagos-island) “belongs to” Benin — that is, they own[ed] what was conferred on them. APPENDIX These events of 1603-4 cited from Ulsheimer actually took place about eighty (80) years before the present Èkó dynasty was founded by Ashipa (the Awori noble from Isheri) the father of Ado. Peace! 22 Likes 7 Shares |
| Re: The Ijebu Vs Jebusite by gregyboy(m): 8:41am On Nov 30, 2020 |
tollyboy5: https://www.nairaland.com/5658558/see-origins-founding-patriarchs-yoruba#86212220 Number 133 |
| Re: The Ijebu Vs Jebusite by gregyboy(m): 8:42am On Nov 30, 2020 |
tollyboy5: https://www.nairaland.com/5658558/see-origins-founding-patriarchs-yoruba#86212220 |
| Re: The Ijebu Vs Jebusite by Etinosa1234: 1:05pm On Nov 30, 2020 |
tollyboy5: If u are really from Epe, yeah... Benin never ruled over Epe.. it mainly had influence over old Lagos... The First reports that supports Benin influence over old Lagos was the report by Josua Ulsheimer whom someone is trying to deny by saying he was lied to by the Benins who were there as at then.. But if Josua Ulsheimer happened to be lied to as a report being written 200 years later said, then can someone explain how Benin got to have influence over the ruling dynasty of Lagos... The First sign of influence over Lagos was the letter written by Oba Akitoye to the British where he clearly stated that the Benin had the undisputed authority to choose the next Oba... Secondly, when his letter was not granted and finally deposed, Oba kosoko who became the next Oba was approached on abolishing the slave trade, Oba kosoko replied that Lagos was under the Oba of Benin and it was only the Oba that was able to deal with foreign issues Thirdly, when kosoko successfully repulsed a British attack, consul Beecroft wrote to the Benin that kosoko had to surrender .. which talks abt the Benin influence Fourthly there are credible reports that past obas were buried in Benin... Infact the king makers ie the eletu odibo are or Benin origins Lastly, when In 1860, Kosoko persuaded the Oba of Benin to send messages to Dosunmu pressing him to allow Kosoko's return to Lagos. Dosunmu, now under British authority, refused this request and noted that things were "not as in former times when Lagos was under the King of Benin to whom annually a tribute was paid Don't allow ur self be deceived by people that only know how to write AreaFada2 Samuk Gregyboy Edeyoung |
| Re: The Ijebu Vs Jebusite by AreaFada2: 1:17pm On Nov 30, 2020 |
Etinosa1234:Your history of Lagos is spot on. Epe was of no use to Benin.. Benin was not looking for Lebensraum to grow. We needed trade corridor and access to sea or Lagos to allow two pronged military movement. Especially under the sailor King Orhogbua. He had learned at the Royal Military Academy in Lisbon how the Portuguese used navigation to excel both militarily and commercially. 1 Like |
| Re: The Ijebu Vs Jebusite by Etinosa1234: 1:22pm On Nov 30, 2020 |
AreaFada2: Yeah .. Very soon, that local historian that has invest all her life resources in Benin history will soon come and quote books that no one has access to But I won't reply her, depression will soon take over hee
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| Re: The Ijebu Vs Jebusite by tollyboy5(m): 3:06pm On Nov 30, 2020 |
JohnSin97:Get lost with with your rubbish! All over Yoruba land we ijebu knows we're different and we're the largest ethnic group in yorubaland. It suppose to be the Ijebus and yorubas. But we accept ourselves as youbas doesn't mean we don't know there are also difference. Mind you in my ancestor are from the awujale lineage As for the image you posted. Its meaningless we ijebus are not tribal bigot we only care about justice and wealth, so your post is rubbish 1 Like |
| Re: The Ijebu Vs Jebusite by TAO11(f): 5:00pm On Nov 30, 2020 |
SUMMARY: The following have been established from a consideration of the Lagos account (attached below) which is much earlier than the Benin account even in the light of Ulsheimer’s report: (1) The Binis “owned” an area of the islands that was allocated to them by the Aworis; just as the Ijebus, the Ijaws, et al. “owned” the respective areas allocated to them too. (2) The Binis, just as other immigrant groups, were only able to settle in Lagos island by means of a peaceful infiltration which was subject to the approval of the natives, viz. the Aworis. (3) Among the various immigrant groups that then settled in Lagos island, the Binis grew in a very short time to be the most populous and thus the most prominent. (4) The progenitor of the present ongoing dynasty of Lagos island is a Yoruba chief from Isheri by the name Ashipa. (5) Ashipa established his monarchy on the island of Eko (the island which hitherto is part of the territory of the King whose capital is at Iddo/Otto King) with the support of the immigrants, primarily the King of Benin who also have trade interest on that island. (6) As a result of the success, the king of Benin earned Ashipa’s unwavering loyalty. He became the patron of successive kings on the island — earning remittances as well as the honor of officially recognizing successive kings. • This is what our documented account in Lagos says (even in light of Ulsheimer’s report) decades before Benin came up with its latter-day reactive account. (7) I should also mention at this point that Ashipa’s son who succeeded him, viz. Ado was born to him in Benin by a Bini woman. See: P. Cole’s “Modern and Traditional Elites in the Politics of Lagos”. This last point is the only area of primary (maternal) blood connection with Benin. Every other connection is purely political as the Lagos account, which is decades earlier than the Binis’, has resoundingly affirmed. cc: macof, LegendHero, gomojam, nisai, RedboneSmith, scholes0, babtoundey, RuggedSniper, Balogunodua, Barbilius ———————— PS: (A) Please refer to my two foregoing comments above for the discussion-flow leading to this summary. (B) Refer also to the following link for refutation of a propaganda-video which the Binis often peddle around. https://www.nairaland.com/6314603/oni-chief-priest/25#97693390 (C) The attached screenshot is a relevant page on the Lagos account as contained in Sir Alan Burns’ “History of Nigeria”, 1929, p.43. www.nairaland.com/attachments/12768161_03c5f455ca6c4a4983a0bf2594607f69_jpeg_jpegcd0c447085360c921debd85d0f8869cd This Lagos section of this work is based on (i) J.B. Wood’s “Historical Notices of Lagos, West Africa”, 1878; as well as on (ii) J.B. Losi’s “History of Lagos”, 1914 All are published decades before the reactive Benin account came on board. 8 Likes 6 Shares
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| Re: The Ijebu Vs Jebusite by Nobody: 5:21pm On Nov 30, 2020 |
..bump 1 Like |
| Re: The Ijebu Vs Jebusite by TAO11(f): 5:22pm On Nov 30, 2020 |
tollyboy5:Bro. Ijebus are Yorubas. My ancestors are Ijebus and Aworis. Do not misinform people. Ask questions if you’re not very clear. Peace! 5 Likes 1 Share |
| Re: The Ijebu Vs Jebusite by Nobody: 5:25pm On Nov 30, 2020 |
gregyboy:I can understand. Post battery (on the Ikwere thread) trauma, isn't it?  Don't worry you will get past this faze. Take it easy on yourself my Benin bloda 1 Like |
| Re: The Ijebu Vs Jebusite by TAO11(f): 5:28pm On Nov 30, 2020 |
gomojam:Haha! 2 Likes |
| Re: The Ijebu Vs Jebusite by Nobody: 5:29pm On Nov 30, 2020 |
tollyboy5:Which your "Ijebu warlord?" Where in Ijebu are you from? 1 Like |
| Re: The Ijebu Vs Jebusite by JohnSin97: 5:31pm On Nov 30, 2020 |
tollyboy5: Thunder fire you there and your stupid lie. Omo igbo radarada 1 Like |
| Re: The Ijebu Vs Jebusite by JohnSin97: 5:34pm On Nov 30, 2020 |
TAO11: Don't mind the bastard...the idiot is Omo igbo. 1 Like |
| Re: The Ijebu Vs Jebusite by Nobody: 5:37pm On Nov 30, 2020 |
TAO11: I don diagnose him illness sharp sharp. But Tao11, you be iron lady ooo. You just dey use my Benin uncles mop floor any how like rag, especially papa gregyboy A single yoruba lady like Tao11 is equal to a thousand Benin hefty, bearded, sagged lip drooling gregyboy. 2 Likes |
| Re: The Ijebu Vs Jebusite by Nobody: 5:39pm On Nov 30, 2020 |
TAO11:I don't think he is Ijebu. This course he embarked on is lost on arrival though. 1 Like |
| Re: The Ijebu Vs Jebusite by TAO11(f): 5:40pm On Nov 30, 2020 |
tollyboy5:This is also inaccurate. The Ijebu sub-dialects just like every dialect/sub-dialect in the world are almost similar but also differentiated. If an Ijebu man from Noforija-Epe, Lagos speaks, an Ijebu man from Ikorodu, Lagos may not understand (everything said) even if Ijebu is the only language each of them have spoken all their lives. A friend of mine from Ishagamu (Remo) visited Ishara (in the same Remo) and could not understand most of the words in their sub-dialect of the Ijebu dialect of Yoruba language. Stop exaggerating. I’m beginning to believe @JohnSin97 ‘s assertion about you. cc: gomojam 5 Likes 2 Shares |
| Re: The Ijebu Vs Jebusite by Nobody: 5:42pm On Nov 30, 2020 |
Stop being daft, i never said "Lagos Island". I brought a map which shows the entirety of Lagos was part of Benin, not just the island !You are more daft bro. 1 Like |
| Re: The Ijebu Vs Jebusite by TAO11(f): 5:43pm On Nov 30, 2020 |
gomojam:It’s God oo! Evil thrives when good people keep shut! 4 Likes |
| Re: The Ijebu Vs Jebusite by Nobody: 5:48pm On Nov 30, 2020 |
TAO11:Kare jare omo iye mi. Aiye re a ladun. 1 Like |
| Re: The Ijebu Vs Jebusite by TAO11(f): 5:55pm On Nov 30, 2020 |
gomojam:Are you Ijebu ni, you just spoke Ijebu dialect now at the bolded. 4 Likes 1 Share |
| Re: The Ijebu Vs Jebusite by Nobody: 6:01pm On Nov 30, 2020 |
TAO11:Yes. 1 Like |
| Re: The Ijebu Vs Jebusite by TAO11(f): 6:04pm On Nov 30, 2020 |
gomojam:Oh great! Do you speak the dialect well and very very sure of yourself? I need you to translate a very simple English phrase into Ijebu for someone to see Please be sure of your reply. Thanks! 6 Likes 3 Shares |
| Re: The Ijebu Vs Jebusite by tollyboy5(m): 6:11pm On Nov 30, 2020 |
TAO11:I won't agree totally with you. They might be varient but there's always some similarities. The farther they are from ijebu ode the varient their diaper become. Epe and ijebu ode understand themselves well. Agoiwoyi , and remo with ikorodu might have little distinct |
| Re: The Ijebu Vs Jebusite by Nobody: 6:13pm On Nov 30, 2020 |
TAO11:No, I do not speak it fluently. |
| Re: The Ijebu Vs Jebusite by TAO11(f): 6:20pm On Nov 30, 2020 |
gomojam:Okay, I won’t be mad then if you get this wrong.  Can you translate the following into Ijebu to the best of your knowledge. You can try translating in multiple ways though. It doesn’t have to be one way — but provided each is your best Ijebu attempt “OYo is the King” But again, it would be understandable if you’re not accurate since you admitted to not being fluent. 5 Likes 2 Shares |
| Re: The Ijebu Vs Jebusite by tollyboy5(m): 6:20pm On Nov 30, 2020 |
TAO11:Nobody allocated land to the ijebus. It was expansion of territory. My ancestor came to oko epe for hunting after Ogunmodede came in the first place to settle down. Different wave of migration also happened after then from ijebu ode. I think aworis has gotten to Lagos island all this time. My ancestors from 26ths awujala also came with slaves and his brothers to form lesser kingdoms around Epe. |
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