@Aproko,

Aproko:

really? i find it hard to swallow that mohammed really came to this earth to teach people how to kill and destroy. perhaps i should pick up a copy of the koran!!

Please do so - pick up the Qur'an; and the day you find that what I offered you do not exist on its pages, let me know. In addition, the Hadith will help you to a deeper understanding in your search.

Aproko:

but really, if Muhammad has taught the muslims to fight at every opportunity, then its a miracle that the worlds population is above 6b, considering how many people are muslims!!

Not too long ago, I just finished a rejoinder to doyenn's in another thread where he openly declared that Muslims will "fight to the finish"! Perhaps, that was his own rants and have nothing to do with Islam (the religion of peace)? If you're waiting for the over 6 billion people on earth to be wiped out before you get the message, then my point is made that you really don't know as yet what you're stating.

Aproko:

we have to be sincere, there are fundamentalist muslims as well as christains!!

Yeah - and I guess the 'fundamentalist Christians' have been going on suicide bombings, hijacking planes and screaming the same 'Allahu akbar' just to preserve their religion, NO?

Aproko:

the bible says an eye for an eye, but do you really go about removing an eye of all your offenders? i don't think so. now how would you feel if anybody says christainity teaches violence, after all there is quite a lot of violence in the bible, and there were times when jesus christ displayed his anger!!!

Oh, amuse me Aproko. There were times when Jesus displayed His anger - so he called for their slaughter, abi? I guess His anger wasn't strong enough to prevent Him from going to the Cross - and did you say you're a "crossbearer" or aspire to be one? Lol.

Rest assured, people have alleged tens of thousands of stuff against Christianity - including the one highlighted in your posts. But at least we can be reasonable to dialogue in order to understand that Christianity does not teach violence. If it did, then Christians have not been paying attention to such "Christian" teachings in the Bible to go slaughter people after the holy months, laying ambush in every strategy!

Aproko:

my point really is that the koran must have something good in it, even if its just love your neigbour and give alms to the poor, perhaps we should focus on the good and constructively critisize the bad instead of branding the whole religion as violent!!

Aproko, please take time and read the Qur'an and the Hadith. Islam is not what you make of it; and your call here is simply good enough to fuel the flames of Islamic intolerance. How? For the simple reason that Islam does not and will not sit on a negotiating table to allow the idea of a "constructively criticising" any part of Muhammad's religion!

pilgrim.1:

@Aproko,

Please do so - pick up the Qur'an; and the day you find that what I offered you do not exist on its pages, let me know. In addition, the Hadith will help you to a deeper understanding in your search.

i did try my dear, the ones i came across were in arabic, ok, perhaps i haven't tried hard enough!

pilgrim.1:

Not too long ago, I just finished a rejoinder to doyenn's in another thread where he openly declared that Muslims will "fight to the finish"! Perhaps, that was his own rants and have nothing to do with Islam (the religion of peace)? If you're waiting for the over 6 billion people on earth to be wiped out before you get the message, then my point is made that you really don't know as yet what you're stating.

my point is simple. if every muslim is as terrible as we read on nairaland, then perhaps the suicide bombings and all just got started!! there are muslims that actually are peace loving people, or do i not know what i'm stating too?

pilgrim.1:


Oh, amuse me Aproko. There were times when Jesus displayed His anger - so he called for their slaughter, abi? I guess His anger wasn't strong enough to prevent Him from going to the Cross - and did you say you're a "crossbearer" or aspire to be one? Lol.

i was asking a question on how christains would react if the religion was branded as a violent one, and i gave instances of when people have assumed the bible preaches violence, perhaps i shouldn't have put a coma in that sentence. now what does that have to do with my being a 'crossbearer or seeking to be one?'

pilgrim.1:

@Aproko,

Please do so - pick up the Qur'an; and the day you find that what I offered you do not exist on its pages, let me know. In addition, the Hadith will help you to a deeper understanding in your search.

Not too long ago, I just finished a rejoinder to doyenn's in another thread where he openly declared that Muslims will "fight to the finish"! Perhaps, that was his own rants and have nothing to do with Islam (the religion of peace)? If you're waiting for the over 6 billion people on earth to be wiped out before you get the message, then my point is made that you really don't know as yet what you're stating.

Yeah - and I guess the 'fundamentalist Christians' have been going on suicide bombings, hijacking planes and screaming the same 'Allahu akbar' just to preserve their religion, NO?

Rest assured, people have alleged tens of thousands of stuff against Christianity - including the one highlighted in your posts. But at least we can be reasonable to dialogue in order to understand that Christianity does not teach violence. If it did, then Christians have not been paying attention to such "Christian" teachings in the Bible to go slaughter people after the holy months, laying ambush in every strategy!

perhaps the fundamentalist enjoy interpreting spiritual works for their own selfish purposes!my point is fundamentalist are everywhere, not just in islam.

pilgrim.1:


Aproko, please take time and read the Qur'an and the Hadith. Islam is not what you make of it; and your call here is simply good enough to fuel the flames of Islamic intolerance. How? For the simple reason that Islam does not and will not sit on a negotiating table to allow the idea of a "constructively criticising" any part of Muhammad's religion!

nairaland is a negotiating table, grieviances can be aired without insulting what one has chosen to believe or been made to believe. _{(that doesn't apply to you oh, before you chop my head off! lol)}

Aproko:

my point is simple. if every muslim is as terrible as we read on nairaland, then perhaps the suicide bombings and all just got started!! there are muslims that actually are peace loving people, or do i not know what i'm stating too?

The problem is not whether there are peace-loving muslims or not. If we assume that 1% of over 1.5 billion muslims are extremist, that leaves 15 million muslims the world over who are ready to commit suicide bomb attacks, hijack aircraft and fly aircraft into sky scrapers. Considering it took only 4 men to bring down the 2 towers at the WTC and kill more than 3000 people on 9-11, 15 million is a scary number. It wont matter if the other 99% of muslims are truly "peace-loving".

The problem with islam is the ideology that breeds a man who believes he needs to kill as many people as possible in the name of god and as a just reward for al jaanat.

Aproko:

i was asking a question on how christains would react if the religion was branded as a violent one, and i gave instances of when people have assumed the bible preaches violence, perhaps i shouldn't have put a coma in that sentence. now what does that have to do with my being a 'crossbearer or seeking to be one?'

Your question is not a new one.
Dan Brown wrote the Davinci code that has since made it to the big screen, the christian reaction was to call for a mass boycott of the book and movie with prominent US evangelists writing rebuttals to refute his spurious claims from the standpoint of the bible.

Salman Rushdie wrote a book of fiction in 1989 - the muslim response? You guessed it, a day of rage, a fatwah and a bounty worth more than $10m on his head by no other than the islamic republic of Iran. More than 10 yrs after, the Pakistani government officials are calling for attacks against England for knighting him.

Aproko:

perhaps the fundamentalist enjoy interpreting spiritual works for their own selfish purposes!my point is fundamentalist are everywhere, not just in islam.

You are very right. But not even a muslim goes to bed afraid of being bombed to smitherens by christian "fundamentalists" on the other hand we now have to endure hrs of excruciating searches at airports no thanks to our peace loving muslim brothers.

Peace be onto you (salam alaikun)

Qu'ran (2:70) - and we vouchsafed onto[b][/b][/color]Jesus the son of mary, all evidence of the truth,andstrengthen him with holy inspiration, (2:112) "and it is unto him(Jesus) we surrender ourselves'.

Qu'ran (3:68)-"and unto him(Jesus) we do surrender ourselves"

Qu'ran(4:173) - and on the day of Resurrection he(himself{Jesus}) shall bear the witness to the truth against them

source http://www.islamicity.com/QuranSearch/

[color=#000099]The Bible Matthew (17:5) - While he was still speaking, behold, a bright cloud cast a shadow over them, 6 then from the cloud came a voice that said, "This is my beloved Son, with whom I am well pleased; listen to him."

[/color]Bible Matthew (3:16-17) - After Jesus was baptized, he came up from the water and behold, the heavens were opened (for him), and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove (and) coming upon him. (17) And a voice came from the heavens, saying, [color=#006600]"This is my beloved Son, with whom I am well pleased."

[/color]Bible John (3:16) -For God so loved the world that he gave  his only Son, so that everyone who believes in him might not perish but might have eternal life.  

source: http://www.nccbuscc.org/nab/bible/john/john3.htm

Therefore Al Qu'ran (3:29)says "[b][/b][color=#990000]Woe, then, unto all who deny the truth when that awesome Day(the day Jesus will bear the withness, the day of ressurection) appear.


I was born a Muslim,named Abdul-Hakeem, and dedicated to Islam for 28 years. I even went pilgrim to  Mecca and Medina. I upheld the 5 pillars of Islams, but I Glorifies the name of the Living Lord, Jesus, who is the truth, the way, the light, no One goes to the father except trough him , for opening my eyes and guide me onto the true parth,  To him be the Glory from now and for Ever!


Peace in the name of son of God.

maa salam !

Qc-1, the Lord reward you for your faith!

Thank you david. mat.28v19-20.

peace

@davidylan

ive been going thru all ur posts and am kind of confused at what it is exactly that u stand for.

do u think by being so aggresive towards the muslims that u wud get them to see wat u r offering.

moreover is it really about christainity or islam that we should bother about or about who is living aright.

now reflect on this scenario.

sometime in the northern part of nigeria there was a crisis btw the muslims and the christains, there was a muslim landlord who has been a wonderful person and was very good to people around him. to the best of his ability. during the crisis, while the other land lords were busy chasing christain tenants out of their house, this man protected his tenants with everything he had to make sure they are not killed. alot of his property was destroyed cos he wouldnt tell them where he hid his tenants.

on the other hand, in onitcha wen the christain ibos were retaliating, some of the so called Christains took part in destroying the muslim hausas.


now lets assume u r God (even though i know u can never be) if that day was to be the last day, what wud be ur judgement on that particular muslim and the christain.


and wats with that sura u always quote. from wat i read there i never saw where it says that all muslims wud go to hell fire rather it talked about transgressors. and this is also talked abt in the bible that wages of sin is death.

so wat really are u driving at or do u just have personal beef for the muslims

Otuwe,

otuwe:

sometime in the northern part of nigeria there was a crisis between the muslims and the christains, there was a muslim landlord who has been a wonderful person and was very good to people around him. to the best of his ability. during the crisis, while the other land lords were busy chasing christain tenants out of their house, this man protected his tenants with everything he had to make sure they are not killed. alot of his property was destroyed because he wouldnt tell them where he hid his tenants.

on the other hand, in onitcha when the christain ibos were retaliating, some of the so called Christains took part in destroying the muslim hausas.


now lets assume you're God (even though i know u can never be) if that day was to be the last day, what would be your judgement on that particular muslim and the christain.

Otuwe, would it be too much to ask what would be your own judgement on the same scenario? And please, understand we're not dealing with mere humanistic persuasions here where people can make sentimental statements to accommodate just about any and every type of opinion.

However, let me offer you a few verses from the Bible to reflect on how that scenario might be evaluated from God's view:


Matthew 25:34-40
"Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world: For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in: Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me. Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, and fed thee? or thirsty, and gave thee drink? When saw we thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and clothed thee? Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee? And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me."

Romans 2:5-11
"But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God; Who will render to every man according to his deeds: To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life: But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath, Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile; But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile: For there is no respect of persons with God."

We know that people are not saved by the merits of their works; but those who believe in Jesus Christ and seek in His name to obey righteousness will certainly be rewarded according to what Rom. 2 says above.

Does that mean there are many ways to God and that therefore I'm encouraging Muslims to remain in Islam and seek to inherit paradise by being good to Christians? Not at all. It's clear that the Bible teaches that a willful rejection of Jesus Christ (which would include "hatred" for Him and the Father - John 15:24) is what denies one the gift of salvation (and no sitting on the fence here would atone).

Now, the question here to be asked would be this: what did Muhammad think of Jews and Christians really? Rather than make any comments, let me offer you what Muslims themselves believe as stated in their holy books and leave you to draw your own conclusions:


Malik's Muwatta (Book 45, #45.5.17)
Yahya related to me from Malik from Ismail ibn Abi Hakim that he heard Umar ibn Abd al-Aziz say, "One of the last things that the Messenger of Allah, may Allah bless him and grant him peace, said was, 'May Allah fight the jews and the christians. They took the graves of their Prophets as places of prostration . Two deens shall not co-exist in the land of the Arabs.' "

Sahih Muslim (Book 041, #6985)
Abu Huraira reported Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) as saying: The last hour would not come unless the Muslims will fight against the Jews and the Muslims would kill them until the Jews would hide themselves behind a stone or a tree and a stone or a tree would say: Muslim, or the servant of Allah, there is a Jew behind me; come and kill him; but the tree Gharqad would not say, for it is the tree of the Jews.


Now otuwe, the scenario was yours - now you decide if that Muslim landlord was acting in the true spirit of Islam or he was acting directly against it and being sympathetic to Christians who sought refuge from him? What do you think Muhammad himself would have done to those Christians if they sought his protection from his brigand?

otuwe:

and wats with that sura u always quote. from what i read there i never saw where it says that all muslims would go to hell fire rather it talked about transgressors. and this is also talked about in the bible that wages of sin is death.

The Bible makes clear that the wages of sin is death. However, unless you simply want to go by the same politicized reading of Sura 19:71, it should be clear to you that the verse there is categorically stating that every Muslim will most definitely go down to hell. We've argued this out and no Muslim has been able to show from their own Qur'an itself that Allah speaks of a so-called "bridge" over hell that people would go across.

The funny thing is that while you follow the traditional politically adjusted translations and make that verse apply to the transgressors, does it not clearly mean then that it is the transgressors who "PASS OVER" the Hell and go across it to the other side? That would simply mean that the transgressors actually go over Hell but not into it!

When you present this to Muslims, then they come back twisting the whole verse to apply again to Muslims who "pass over" Hell!

Otuwe, you don't know the Muslim mindset; and it is best you don't try to interpret for them what they haven't been able to argue out consistently on clear grounds.

@ pilgrim.1 thank you very very plenty for your analysis of otuwe's ramblings.

otuwe:

@davidylan

ive been going through all your posts and am kind of confused at what it is exactly that u stand for.

Good that you are confused. I've also read some of your posts and i can boldly say that neither do you even know what you stand for, if you are a christian as you pretend to be u're probably a lukewarm one at best.

otuwe:

do u think by being so aggresive towards the muslims that u would get them to see what you're offering.

For the smart ones maybe, for those that will never listen whether you say it gently or not at least they have a right to know that i will not sit back and watch people call Jesus Christ a slave while PC christians like you pretend you dont see it only to start whinning when we point out sura 19:71.

otuwe:

moreover is it really about christainity or islam that we should bother about or about who is living aright.

this is why i am more than convinced you dont even know what you believe if you claim to be a christian. Read through your bible, no where did Christ tell you that heaven is for those "who are living aright". Our righteousness are like filthy rags. EXCEPT A MAN BE BORN AGAIN HE CANNOT SEE THE KINGDOM OF GOD.

otuwe:

now reflect on this scenario.

sometime in the northern part of nigeria there was a crisis between the muslims and the christains, there was a muslim landlord who has been a wonderful person and was very good to people around him. to the best of his ability. during the crisis, while the other land lords were busy chasing christain tenants out of their house, this man protected his tenants with everything he had to make sure they are not killed. alot of his property was destroyed because he wouldnt tell them where he hid his tenants.

on the other hand, in onitcha when the christain ibos were retaliating, some of the so called Christains took part in destroying the muslim hausas.


now lets assume you're God (even though i know u can never be) if that day was to be the last day, what would be your judgement on that particular muslim and the christain.

This scenario makes no sense, for we are not saved by works.

otuwe:

and wats with that sura u always quote. from what i read there i never saw where it says that all muslims would go to hell fire rather it talked about transgressors. and this is also talked about in the bible that wages of sin is death.

uhm when next you want to quote the bible to suit your warped thought process please at least have the decency to quote the entire verse. The bible unlike the quran NEVER leaves you hanging without giving you a clear opportunity to make a choice.

Romans 6:23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

otuwe:

so what really are u driving at or do u just have personal beef for the muslims

As long as you yourself are confused about your place in Jesus Christ you will never understand what i'm driving at just like the pharisees never understood why despite the fact that they followed the laws of moses to the letter Christ still refered to them as whitened sepulchres.

I grew up surounded by muslims for the first 17yrs of my life so what beef are you talking about?

davidylan:

It wont matter if the other 99% of muslims are truly "peace-loving".

thats so unfair to your assumed 99%!! how come you never assumed any % of fundamentalist christains? is it because you dont hear of their exploits? back here in Nigeria fundamentalist christains commit as much attrocities as fundamentalist muslims!!!

davidylan:


The problem with islam is the ideology that breeds a man who believes he needs to kill as many people as possible in the name of god and as a just reward for al jaanat.

perhaps the problem is not with islam, but with interpretations of the koran!! if a man goes about killing and maiming people saying the kingdom of heaven suffereth violence and the violent take it by force, does that mean there is a problem with christainity or that mans interpretation?

my point davidylan, which i think i have put clearly enough is that you cannot castigate the whole doctrine because some 1 deadly % have decided to take things out of context and control! by the way, that is what happens when a spiritual work is given a literal interpretation.

and really the question about how she feels when christainity is given all sorts of interpretation is not a new one, as a matter of fact, i saw them on this forum.

is it the 99% 'peace loving brothers' that have caused you excruciating pain and long hours at the airport or that 1% assumed? hasty generalisation isn't always nice davidylan.

that still brings me to the fact that i feell its too rigid to say just because someone agrees that Christ is the Son of God, that he has the ticket to heaven.


the parable of the talents goes a long way to show us that its about wat we do with our lives dat matters not wat religion or sect we belong to.

Christ himself came with a message of love.

love ur neighbours as urself

this is like the strongest message of Christ. cos with it, u can conguer any sin u can ever think of.

@ davidylan
by their works u shall know them. am yet to see those virtues of a christain from the way u reply posts. firstly wats with all the insults, thats not a christain virtue u know.

Good that you are confused. I've also read some of your posts and i can boldly say that neither do you even know what you stand for, if you are a christian as you pretend to be u're probably a lukewarm one at best.

ive asked this question before, are there different types of christains. at least i know its either one is a christain or he is not and a christain is one who strives to follow the teachings of christ not a person who attacks other who dont believe in wat he believes in.

For the smart ones maybe, for those that will never listen whether you say it gently or not at least they have a right to know that i will not sit back and watch people call Jesus Christ a slave while PC christians like you pretend you don't see it only to start whinning when we point out sura 19:71.

pls wat is PC christain so that i wud know if i am one. but on the other hand it takes one to know one so i dont really think am one since i dont even know wat it means

this is why i am more than convinced you don't even know what you believe if you claim to be a christian. Read through your bible, no where did Christ tell you that heaven is for those "who are living aright". Our righteousness are like filthy rags. EXCEPT A MAN BE BORN AGAIN HE CANNOT SEE THE KINGDOM OF GOD

can a man be born again and not live aright or do u just want to oppose everything ive said

uhm when next you want to quote the bible to suit your warped thought process please at least have the decency to quote the entire verse. The bible unlike the quran NEVER leaves you hanging without giving you a clear opportunity to make a choice.

Romans 6:23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

i know the complete one but i quoted only dat cos that was how u explained that sura by picking out only the one about going to hell. am sure if u complete it, it wud make more sense.

As long as you yourself are confused about your place in Jesus Christ you will never understand what i'm driving at just like the pharisees never understood why despite the fact that they followed the laws of moses to the letter Christ still refered to them as whitened sepulchres.

are u sure u r not even doing worse than the pharisees cos from wat av been reading there has been alot of pointing of fingers and feeling of being the rightous one.

I grew up surounded by muslims for the first 17yrs of my life so what beef are you talking about?

now i know where u got the viciousness. you are practising ur christainity in an islamic way    , u wud bring down anything that comes in ur way


my opinions house, pls dont forget that and dont attack me oh. i no fit shout

@ topic
Jesus is the Son of God and not a Slave is a more appropriate topic for this thread

Aproko:

thats so unfair to your assumed 99%!! how come you never assumed any % of fundamentalist christains? is it because you don't hear of their exploits? back here in Nigeria fundamentalist christains commit as much attrocities as fundamentalist muslims!!!

Here is the problem with many of the analogies from PC "christians". where are these mysterious "fundamentalist" christians and where are there exploits? Care to mention 2 or 3 especially in Nigeria? And please dont mention Rev King, at least we know he is facing the death penalty and 100% of the christian community do not regard him as one of them.

Aproko:

perhaps the problem is not with islam, but with interpretations of the koran!! if a man goes about killing and maiming people saying the kingdom of heaven suffereth violence and the violent take it by force, does that mean there is a problem with christainity or that mans interpretation?

This is vague at best. Clearly NO christian in history has ever gone around killing others on the basis of the verse you mentioned so why use the analogy in the first place? to attempt to blame the problem on merely "interpretations of the koran" is to play the ostrich with the truth, are there no misinterpretations of the bible, hindu holy book or sikh holy books? Why is misinterpretation only in the koran?

Aproko:

my point davidylan, which i think i have put clearly enough is that you cannot castigate the whole doctrine because some 1 deadly % have decided to take things out of context and control! by the way, that is what happens when a spiritual work is given a literal interpretation.

This is where you totally miss my point. No one is castigating the remaining 99% of "peaceloving" muslims but here is the crux of the matter:
1. The remaining 1% have proven to be a formidable force for violence, murder, intimidation and bigotry. 9-11 and 7-7 should be crucial reminders.
2. Where is the voice of these 99% when the 1% are busy terrorising the rest of us in the name of god?

Aproko:

is it the 99% 'peace loving brothers' that have caused you excruciating pain and long hours at the airport or that 1% assumed? hasty generalisation isn't always nice davidylan.

Neither is uninformed political correctness going to do you any good. Thank you.

otuwe:

that still brings me to the fact that i feell its too rigid to say just because someone agrees that Christ is the Son of God, that he has the ticket to heaven.
the parable of the talents goes a long way to show us that its about what we do with our lives that matters not what religion or sect we belong to.

John 3:3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.

otuwe:

Christ himself came with a message of love.

love your neighbours as yourself

this is like the strongest message of Christ. because with it, u can conguer any sin u can ever think of.

This is false doctrine. Christ came PRIMARILY with the message of salvation to die on the cross. Love thy neighbour as yourself was an integral part of the 10 commandments more than 2000 yrs before Christ came to die on the cross.

Matthew 1:21 And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name JESUS: for he shall save his people from their sins.

otuwe:

@ davidylan
by their works u shall know them. am yet to see those virtues of a christain from the way u reply posts. firstly wats with all the insults, thats not a christain virtue u know.

You cant see the virtues of a christian in me if you dont even know the principles of christianity in the first place. Based on the last few posts from you it is evident you are a christian only in name. Pls mention where i called you stupid or foolish.

otuwe:

ive asked this question before, are there different types of christains. at least i know its either one is a christain or he is not and a christain is one who strives to follow the teachings of christ not a person who attacks other who don't believe in what he believes in.

A christian is not defined by a set of man made rules that states "thou shalt not expose lies and contradictions". This thread alone is an example of an "attack" against the very person of Jesus Christ, your own very God if indeed you are a christian and yet you all have kept a stony silence prefering instead to remain allah's appologists. carry go.

otuwe:

please what is PC christain so that i would know if i am one. but on the other hand it takes one to know one so i don't really think am one since i don't even know what it means

The "it takes one to know one" line here is hogwash. Jesus Christ called the pharisees whitened sepulchres, does your rule follow there too?

otuwe:

can a man be born again and not live aright or do u just want to oppose everything ive said

You never said anything about being born again in the first iinstance. There is nothing like "living right" outside salvation, for ALL have sinned and come short of the glory of God. they can play at living right from now till eternity they are going no where.

otuwe:

i know the complete one but i quoted only that because that was how u explained that sura by picking out only the one about going to hell. am sure if u complete it, it would make more sense.

This is more evidence that you have NOT read that which you keep complaining about. There are several threads here that have debated this issue from sura 19: 68-72. Infact the more you read further verses, the more ridiculous the muslim explanation begins to sound. I wont bother going there for now.

otuwe:

are u sure you're not even doing worse than the pharisees because from what av been reading there has been alot of pointing of fingers and feeling of being the rightous one.

Christianity is not synonymous with false humility. The apostles in the book of acts were boldly speaking the word of salvation to kings and priests and they paid the eternal price for it. Being a child of God is not the same as smiling in the face of heresy, pretending you do not see when others slander your God and admitting just about any sinner because afterall "they are living right". No ma!

otuwe:

now i know where u got the viciousness. you are practising your christainity in an islamic way , u would bring down anything that comes in your way

Not really, for one christianity is more than just a mere practice of reciting incantations and claiming to be peaceful. It is a lifestyle.

otuwe:

@ topic
Jesus is the Son of God and not a Slave is a more appropriate topic for this thread

Funny you are just seeing the topic after donkey yrs.

davidylan:

Here is the problem with many of the analogies from PC "christians". where are these mysterious "fundamentalist" christians and where are there exploits? Care to mention 2 or 3 especially in Nigeria? And please don't mention Rev King, at least we know he is facing the death penalty and 100% of the christian community do not regard him as one of them.

i wish i knew the meaning of PC Christain you know!!!
have you ever heard of a place in Nigeria called ivori? dont think so!! so thats why i would not give you any examples you can relate with, cos a lot of things happen in parts of nigeria and africa as a whole and you dont have that kind of publicity. so even if i told you countless examples that i am aware of, it may not make sense to you!! so why bother!!

davidylan:



This is vague at best. Clearly NO christian in history has ever gone around killing others on the basis of the verse you mentioned so why use the analogy in the first place? to attempt to blame the problem on merely "interpretations of the koran" is to play the ostrich with the truth, are there no misinterpretations of the bible, hindu holy book or sikh holy books? Why is misinterpretation only in the koran?

really? perhaps you are only interested in the misinterpretations in the koran!!!

davidylan:


This is where you totally miss my point. No one is castigating the remaining 99% of "peaceloving" muslims but here is the crux of the matter:
1. The remaining 1% have proven to be a formidable force for violence, murder, intimidation and bigotry. 9-11 and 7-7 should be crucial reminders.
2. Where is the voice of these 99% when the 1% are busy terrorising the rest of us in the name of god?

perhaps their voice is cracked from screaming at the top of their voices, trying to get the deadly 1% to stop polluting them!

davidylan:


Neither is uninformed political correctness going to do you any good. Thank you.

i'm not trying to be politically correct here!! i for one do not mix God and politics!

Aproko:

i wish i knew the meaning of PC Christain you know!!!
have you ever heard of a place in Nigeria called ivori? don't think so!! so thats why i would not give you any examples you can relate with, because a lot of things happen in parts of nigeria and africa as a whole and you don't have that kind of publicity. so even if i told you countless examples that i am aware of, it may not make sense to you!! so why bother!!

After hemming and hawing you still havent come up with any substantial proof of these "fundamentalist" christians beyond trying to hid behind a cowardly "why bother". Have these your christians that only you know about declared a day of rage over Dan Brown's Davinci code? Have they declared Lagos state governed by the 10 commandments? How many muslim "kaffirs" have they killed? any suicide bomber among them? Killings in the name of Jesus?

Aproko:

really? perhaps you are only interested in the misinterpretations in the koran!!!

You're right, especially if those misinterpretations threaten my existence and world peace!

Aproko:

perhaps their voice is cracked from screaming at the top of their voices, trying to get the deadly 1% to stop polluting them!

Perhaps you could be more honest and admit they've never spoken out at all and their quietness is perhaps a tacit sign of silent approval.

Aproko:

i'm not trying to be politically correct here!! i for one do not mix God and politics!

These two sentences dont mix at all. A politically correct individual is not one who mixes God and politics but one an irredeemable appologist who prefers to bury his/her head in the sands of denial just to please the othe party.

otuwe:

@davidylan

ive been going through all your posts and am kind of confused at what it is exactly that u stand for.

do u think by being so aggresive towards the muslims that u would get them to see what you're offering.

moreover is it really about christainity or islam that we should bother about or about who is living aright.

now reflect on this scenario.

sometime in the northern part of nigeria there was a crisis between the muslims and the christains, there was a muslim landlord who has been a wonderful person and was very good to people around him. to the best of his ability. during the crisis, while the other land lords were busy chasing christain tenants out of their house, this man protected his tenants with everything he had to make sure they are not killed. alot of his property was destroyed because he wouldnt tell them where he hid his tenants.

on the other hand, in onitcha when the christain ibos were retaliating, some of the so called Christains took part in destroying the muslim hausas.


now lets assume you're God (even though i know u can never be) if that day was to be the last day, what would be your judgement on that particular muslim and the christain.
and wats with that sura u always quote. from what i read there i never saw where it says that all muslims would go to hell fire rather it talked about transgressors. and this is also talked about in the bible that wages of sin is death.

so what really are u driving at or do u just have personal beef for the muslims

girl are you dyslexic cos these are definitely not typos

John 3:3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.

is it just by mouth

This is false doctrine. Christ came PRIMARILY with the message of salvation to die on the cross. Love thy neighbour as yourself was an integral part of the 10 commandments more than 2000 years before Christ came to die on the cross.

Matthew 1:21 And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name JESUS: for he shall save his people from their sins.

are u then saying we shouldnt love our neighbors as ourselves. Christ Himself is LOVE so why wud u say The concept of Love is a false doctrine.

"He shall save His people" through the WORD He Brought not by being MURDERED on the cross.

You can't see the virtues of a christian in me if you don't even know the principles of christianity in the first place. Based on the last few posts from you it is evident you are a christian only in name. Please mention where i called you stupid or foolish

.

foolish and stupid are not the only ways u can insult someone. go thru all ur posts and u wud definitely find them

A christian is not defined by a set of man made rules that states "thou shalt not expose lies and contradictions". This thread alone is an example of an "attack" against the very person of Jesus Christ, your own very God if indeed you are a christian and yet you all have kept a stony silence prefering instead to remain allah's appologists. carry go.

your role as a christain here was to guide the poster thru since he/she is obviously ignorant of the effect of his insinuation not to start attacking.

The "it takes one to know one" line here is hogwash. Jesus Christ called the pharisees whitened sepulchres, does your rule follow there too?

God knows every ones thought so He can call u watever but are u God. and u still havent even told me wats PC christain

You never said anything about being born again in the first iinstance. There is nothing like "living right" outside salvation, for ALL have sinned and come short of the glory of God. they can play at living right from now till eternity they are going no where.

are you saying i should become born again and still be living my old ways. Being Born again ANEW goes beyond confessing in church. if u dont strive to live the way u should, u can be born again from now till tomorrrow but i dont think it wud make any sense.

This is more evidence that you have NOT read that which you keep complaining about. There are several threads here that have debated this issue from sura 19: 68-72. Infact the more you read further verses, the more ridiculous the muslim explanation begins to sound. I wont bother going there for now.

.
maybe i dont read the present day koran cos it has become diluted. not everything there should be attributed to Muhammed.

Christianity is not synonymous with false humility. The apostles in the book of acts were boldly speaking the word of salvation to kings and priests and they paid the eternal price for it. Being a child of God is not the same as smiling in the face of heresy, pretending you do not see when others slander your God and admitting just about any sinner because afterall "they are living right". No ma!

i dont believe in all these real and faulse christain or real and false humility. someone is either humble or not. either a christain or not. these things are not for u to decide. "there is a way that seemeth right to man but the end thereof is destruction"

Not really, for one christianity is more than just a mere practice of reciting incantations and claiming to be peaceful. It is a lifestyle

.

if its a lifestyle why do u still argue with me about living aright.

Funny you are just seeing the topic after donkey years.

i didnt just see it, i just felt that was all that needed to be explained to the poster not all these debating

davidylan:

After hemming and hawing you still havent come up with any substantial proof of these "fundamentalist" christians beyond trying to hid behind a cowardly "why bother". Have these your christians that only you know about declared a day of rage over Dan Brown's Davinci code? Have they declared Lagos state governed by the 10 commandments? How many muslim "kaffirs" have they killed? any suicide bomber among them? Killings in the name of Jesus?

lol , its like telling you i can't take a gsm phone to some parts of nigeria because there is no network, so why bother, and you telling me that my saying 'why bother' is cawardly!!

when has using one's common sense become cawardly? so again i repeat, why bother?

davidylan:


Perhaps you could be more honest and admit they've never spoken out at all and their quietness is perhaps a tacit sign of silent approval.

perhaps you could be more honest and admit that the sultans comment against killing by islamic sects is an example of the 99% screaming at the top of their voices!!!
there are peace loving muslims my dear, whether you admit it or not!!!

davidylan:


These two sentences don't mix at all. A politically correct individual is not one who mixes God and politics but one an irredeemable appologist who prefers to bury his/her head in the sands of denial just to please the othe party.

perhaps a politically correct individual is one who knows how to keep the world peace!!!

its because of utterances like yours and those of the fundamentalist you so despise that christain/muslim rivalry would never come to an end!! and your peace is threatened alright!!

and for the politically correct that know how to speak up in the language that everybody understands, we know that to effect a change, we must first reflect change, to be an effective leader, we must first lead by example!!!

by their works indeed we shall know them, maybe you should ask yourself if people (at least on nairaland) know you for your work of God or for your anti muslim crusade.

Wow. . . this thread has moved on so quickly!

@Aproko,

Aproko:

thats so unfair to your assumed 99%!! how come you never assumed any % of fundamentalist christains? is it because you don't hear of their exploits? back here in Nigeria fundamentalist christains commit as much attrocities as fundamentalist muslims!!!

Interesting. Where are the plane highjackers and the airport terrorists who "commit as much attrocities" back home with a Christian flag as do their Muslim counterparts? What other "Christian" countries have had things so bad as we read of about Afghanistan, Pakistan, and Sudan?

Aproko:

perhaps the problem is not with islam, but with interpretations of the koran!! if a man goes about killing and maiming people saying the kingdom of heaven suffereth violence and the violent take it by force, does that mean there is a problem with christainity or that mans interpretation?

Unfortunately for readers like you, there are no Hadiths in Christian which would have given us an insight into the "violence" that Christ perhaps might have intended for Christians. Yet, even within the NT alone, you can't miss the fact that Christ did not intend "violence" in terms of the Islamic jihadist "kill them until they confess the shahada".

On the other hand, the problem is not with the "interpretations" of the Qur'an. That's why the Hadiths are there to help any reader and enquirer understand exactly what Muhammad himself meant in unmistaken language. I don't know if there are two meanings of "behead" or "fight them" or "be harsh unto them", etc. in the contexts where such words appear in both the Qur'an and the Hadith. I know how many Muslims on the Forum already have tried to pretend and deny the meaning of the promise Allah left in Sura 19:71 to take every Muslim into hell fire by an irrevocable decree. Please read the Hadith carefully to understand that Muhammad himself meant that every Muslim (whether he was a pious man or sinner) would ENTER Hell fire.

And oh, Muslim may argue that you cannot understand their holy writ simply because you're a non-Muslim. No worries; even their Qur'an is rendered meaningless when once translated into another language - and that's not my interpretation: it comes from the learned pen of Muslim scholars.

Aproko:

my point davidylan, which i think i have put clearly enough is that you cannot castigate the whole doctrine because some 1 deadly % have decided to take things out of context and control! by the way, that is what happens when a spiritual work is given a literal interpretation.

The 1 %, be they deadly as ever could be, are doing the very work Muhammad asked them to do - whether or not you may want to interpret that whichever way.

Aproko:

is it the 99% 'peace loving brothers' that have caused you excruciating pain and long hours at the airport or that 1% assumed? hasty generalisation isn't always nice davidylan.

I think your arguments have already flavoured your hasty generalizations. A few people may blow up your living room - but they do so because they have the backing of both their prophet and the leading exponents of their beliefs. It takes only one man to wipe out a building full of people; but go back home to that man's country and see how they celebrate his "martydom" - did you call it 'hasty generalization'?

Aproko:

perhaps you could be more honest and admit that the sultans comment against killing by islamic sects is an example of the 99% screaming at the top of their voices!!!

Perhaps we could lok at it in the shades of the typical Islamic "screaming" only when events have occured. That is the default position taken by Muslims -- scream out after the deed is done and make the world feel better about your schemes, especially when they've not been following events carefully.

Aproko:

there are peace loving muslims my dear, whether you admit it or not!!!

Indeed there are. Islam is usually called the "religion of peace" - maybe what has been happening among themselves defines the word 'peace' in a whole new way that we just haven't woken up to realize as yet.

Aproko:

perhaps a politically correct individual is one who knows how to keep the world peace!!!

Yes indeed again. Especially when the politically correct will mislead you into believing that there's no threat of any kind at all coming from the quarters that have no regard for your life.

Aproko:

its because of utterances like yours and those of the fundamentalist you so despise that christain/muslim rivalry would never come to an end!! and your peace is threatened alright!!

Before davidylan or I were born, fundamentalism has been in existence. Beyond our time and yours (even if we shut out traps), fundamentalism will continue. Speaking out against the hideous hypocricy of the so-called political correctness is what creates awareness and foils the attempts by the true jihadists to gain easy access to your very life.

Aproko:

and for the politically correct that know how to speak up in the language that everybody understands, we know that to effect a change, we must first reflect change, to be an effective leader, we must first lead by example!!!

The examples of the politically correct are self-evident. I guess they've helped us eradicate terrorism more than addressed it.

Aproko:

by their works indeed we shall know them, maybe you should ask yourself if people (at least on nairaland) know you for your work of God or for your anti muslim crusade.

I'm not afraid to be controversial and branded as such, if only I speak out against the very ideologies that feed the threats we have to live with as part of our daily experiences. And yes, we have come to know "them" by their deeds - ask the powerful icons who are killing themselves now in the "religion of peace".

I Love Religion. It Keeps People Busy.

I Think Its Gods Master Plan. Keep Them Busy.

Let Them Have Something To Live For & Die For Too.

Enjoy Yourselves.

Even without religion, you still do the same.

lol


am enjoying myself

@ pilgrim.1, what can i add to your astute analysis again. Absolutely nothing, you have said everything i could have thought of saying and more. Let those who bury their heads in the sand continue playing games with numbers (99% or 1%), i guess the Kenyans all said the same until the US embassy bombings of 1998.

Perhaps we are waiting until Osama carries out his threat to bomb Nigeria before we all wake up to the truth about islamic fundamentalism. Until then we can all go on pretending islam is a religion of peace.

In the first part of the thread I notice some text on pharaoh drowning. What?

@doyenn
So Muslims too recognise that God is really with the Israelites or Are you saying the incident happens during Mohammed's time.

all you people's posts are not worthy of reading,somebody sholud not be reading this nonsense you people are talking.if you dont know how to address issue of this kind (doyeen and the opponent)why not keep silent and watch.
Allah says LA nufariku baena ahdin min rusulihi (that you shld not establish discrimanation among His Prophet).
Whoever pronounce Bad statemnt agaunst His Prophet shall not enter paradise.
These two Prophet you pple are trying to harrase are true friends of Allah, watch your statement pls so as not incur Allah's wrath.
al yaom akmaltu lakum diinukum,

mashaun:

all you people's posts are not worthy of reading,somebody sholud not be reading this nonsense you people are talking.if you don't know how to address issue of this kind (doyeen and the opponent)why not keep silent and watch.
Allah says LA nufariku baena ahdin min rusulihi (that you shld not establish discrimanation among His Prophet).
Whoever pronounce Bad statemnt agaunst His Prophet shall not enter paradise.
These two Prophet you people are trying to harrase are true friends of Allah, watch your statement please so as not incur Allah's wrath.
al yaom akmaltu lakum diinukum,

thanks for the comedy. Jesus Christ and allah are true friends?

Jesus never said christians should fight on his behalf, because how can you protect your protector, so for me I don't like getting into religious arguments.

say that to Him when u get to hell.

Doyenn, are you not ashamed of being a muslem? Men, you guys are back-dated!

champredd:

Jesus never said christians should fight on his behalf, because how can you protect your protector,

word!!!!!

preach the word to people who are seeking then it wud make more sense.

dont shove it down their throat.


*just an advice. not directed at anyone in particular*

champredd:

Jesus never said christians should fight on his behalf, because how can you protect your protector, so for me I don't like getting into religious arguments.

Debating issues with people is not to be misconstrued for fighting on behalf of Jesus in order to protect Him. He does not need anyone's protection. However, it is the responsibility of Christians to take up the challenges of people who feel that it is their birthright to castigate Jews and Christians simply because their prophet was disechanted against them. For those who feel that apologetics is one and the same as "religious arguments", what does Jude 3 admonish them as Christians to do?

---

otuwe:

preach the word to people who are seeking then it would make more sense.

don't shove it down their throat.

Girlfriend, good afternoon! At least, we don't need Bible verse for the greeting, abi?

"Preaching" the Word does not mean shoving it down anyone's throat. Christians have a double responsibility to both preach the Word as well as to be in readiness for "the defence of the Gospel" (Php. 1:17). Often, people have misconstrued these and feel that only one aspect of our Christian responsibility makes sense without the other. Both go together.