pilgrim.1:

Perhaps we could lok at it in the shades of the typical Islamic "screaming" only when events have occured. That is the default position taken by Muslims -- scream out after the deed is done and make the world feel better about your schemes, especially when they've not been following events carefully.

i can imagine osama bin laden's discussion with the chief imam of his mosque going like this:

osama - chief imam, we are going to bring down the world trade center on 9/11 and kill as many as we can, both christains and muslims (who shall be sacrificial lambs) in the name of Allah, most gracious, most merciful, so that America and the rest of the world would know that Allah is the only existing god!

chief imam - my son osama, go ahead and preach the words of the prophet mohammed as deadly as you can! kill yourself if need be for you will be rewarded with virgins too many to count!!

really pilgrim.1, do you think osama actually informed the muslim world what he had in store on 9/11? so how then do you expect screaming to be done before the act??

pilgrim.1:


Indeed there are. Islam is usually called the "religion of peace" - maybe what has been happening among themselves defines the word 'peace' in a whole new way that we just haven't woken up to realize as yet.

perhaps you should lt the dead bury their dead!!

pilgrim.1:


Yes indeed again. Especially when the politically correct will mislead you into believing that there's no threat of any kind at all coming from the quarters that have no regard for your life.

the politically correct would not mislead you, on the contrary you do not need to be informed of any danger because all such danger would have been averted and done peacefully and quietly too!! there are still people that lend their voice in the face of oppression and all what not without being overbearing.

pilgrim.1:


Before davidylan or I were born, fundamentalism has been in existence. Beyond our time and yours (even if we shut out traps), fundamentalism will continue. Speaking out against the hideous hypocricy of the so-called political correctness is what creates awareness and foils the attempts by the true jihadists to gain easy access to your very life.

you can be rest assured that rubbishing people's beliefs which you call speaking out will only stir up more heat, and not the awareness you so crave!! you know why? because not everybody thinks the way you do, not everybody would agree with you on all points, not everybody would have experienced the things you have!! what sets you apart is how you are able to manage these differences. that is what character is made of, that is what leadership is made of, and that is how change is effected.

pilgrim.1:


I'm not afraid to be controversial and branded as such, if only I speak out against the very ideologies that feed the threats we have to live with as part of our daily experiences. And yes, we have come to know "them" by their deeds - ask the powerful icons who are killing themselves now in the "religion of peace".

my point in all of this dearie is that sometimes controversy would only get you the wrong audience. people want to hear those that can sway them from their very roots without them having a feeling of having lost their identity or the feeling of insecurity of having the rug swept from under their feet. people want to listen to you and say "oh, i see!! now i understand why you say this or that", people want to find conviction and the meaning of their existence!! controversy may not give them the answer they are looking for, it may only lead to more confusion and unanswered questions!!

so my dear, i don't have a problem with your trying to create awareness, but i'm saying do it in accordance with matt. 5:16. your light must shine before men, they must look at you and wonder, they must give glory to God just by looking at you (and in this case, reading your post) that way your awareness has begun and even become effective before you know it!!!

cheers.

aproko and otuwe are not even genuine christians in the first place so no wonder the vigorous defence of the indefensible. Their own foundation is shaky at best.

@Aproko,

Aproko:

i can imagine osama bin laden's discussion with the chief imam of his mosque going like this:

osama - chief imam, we are going to bring down the world trade center on 9/11 and kill as many as we can, both christains and muslims (who shall be sacrificial lambs) in the name of Allah, most gracious, most merciful, so that America and the rest of the world would know that Allah is the only existing god!

chief imam - my son osama, go ahead and preach the words of the prophet mohammed as deadly as you can! kill yourself if need be for you will be rewarded with virgins too many to count!!

really pilgrim.1, do you think osama actually informed the muslim world what he had in store on 9/11? so how then do you expect screaming to be done before the act??

And your point is. . .?

An evil perpertrator does not have to scream before he commits his dastard deeds. So, what's the point you're trying to make?

Aproko:

perhaps you should lt the dead bury their dead!!

How so?

Aproko:

the politically correct would not mislead you, on the contrary you do not need to be informed of any danger because all such danger would have been averted and done peacefully and quietly too!! there are still people that lend their voice in the face of oppression and all what not without being overbearing.

Debating issues and creating awareness against the political correctness (read 'hypocricy') that acts only too late is not overbearing. It is the same "political" hypocrisy that feeds the perpertrators of the same problems that the politically correct have to contend with today.

Aproko:

you can be rest assured that rubbishing people's beliefs which you call speaking out will only stir up more heat, and not the awareness you so crave!! you know why? because not everybody thinks the way you do, not everybody would agree with you on all points, not everybody would have experienced the things you have!! what sets you apart is how you are able to manage these differences. that is what character is made of, that is what leadership is made of, and that is how change is effected.

Why is it the default idea that when Christians debate Islam with Muslims, it has to automatically be interpreted as "rubbishing people's beliefs"? Have you ever cared to look outside the box and see what Muslims do to other people's faith? I must applaud Nairalanders who debate Muslims on tis Forum as being very cordial in contrast to other fora where Muslims have said unprintable things about Christians and Christ! Please, Aproko, don't amuse me.

Aproko:

my point in all of this dearie is that sometimes controversy would only get you the wrong audience. people want to hear those that can sway them from their very roots without them having a feeling of having lost their identity or the feeling of insecurity of having the rug swept from under their feet. people want to listen to you and say "oh, i see!! now i understand why you say this or that", people want to find conviction and the meaning of their existence!! controversy may not give them the answer they are looking for, it may only lead to more confusion and unanswered questions!!

Unfortunately, no matter how sanely one tries to present issues, such a person is very quickly written off as 'controversial'. That's why I don't mind anyone using the term at me so long as my primary aim is to demystify the cloudy ideas peppered by those who have made al-taqiyya a veritable part of their tenets.

Aproko:

so my dear, i don't have a problem with your trying to create awareness, but i'm saying do it in accordance with matt. 5:16. your light must shine before men, they must look at you and wonder, they must give glory to God just by looking at you (and in this case, reading your post) that way your awareness has begun and even become effective before you know it!!!

Matt. 5:16 is one of my fav verses; but I've never sought to pretend that truth cannot be told simply because we aim to let our light shine. For all of the light that righteous people offered, they were still misunderstood and even murdered in some instances. I believe that anyone seriously and objectively examining issues will see exactly what I'm about rather than wonder at how they interpret any verse on my person.

Regards.

pilgrim.1:

@Aproko,

And your point is. . .?

An evil perpertrator does not have to scream before he commits his dastard deeds. So, what's the point you're trying to make?

you asked why the good ones cry out after the dastardly act has been carried out, and i simply replied saying you should consider the fact that they may not have had any idea of the evil being hatched. or do you think people were aware of osama's plot and encouraged it? i think not.

pilgrim.1:

Debating issues and creating awareness against the political correctness (read 'hypocricy') that acts only too late is not overbearing. It is the same "political" hypocrisy that feeds the perpertrators of the same problems that the politically correct have to contend with today.

political correctness i have always read as diplomacy, perhaps i'm too set in my ways to change that opinion. perhaps it is more like a lack of tolerance from those that claim to know all feeds the perpetrators of the problems that the diplomats have to contend with.

pilgrim.1:


Why is it the default idea that when Christians debate Islam with Muslims, it has to automatically be interpreted as "rubbishing people's beliefs"? Have you ever cared to look outside the box and see what Muslims do to other people's faith? I must applaud Nairalanders who debate Muslims on tis Forum as being very cordial in contrast to other fora where Muslims have said unprintable things about Christians and Christ! Please, Aproko, don't amuse me.

an eye for an eye then? perhaps more blindness is in sight _{(with due respect to otuwe's signature)}

pilgrim.1:


Unfortunately, no matter how sanely one tries to present issues, such a person is very quickly written off as 'controversial'. That's why I don't mind anyone using the term at me so long as my primary aim is to demystify the cloudy ideas peppered by those who have made al-taqiyya a veritable part of their tenets.

my dear on the contrary you can present issues without being written off as controversial. perhaps its not what you are presenting, but the way you are presenting it!!

pilgrim.1:


Matt. 5:16 is one of my fav verses; but I've never sought to pretend that truth cannot be told simply because we aim to let our light shine. For all of the light that righteous people offered, they were still misunderstood and even murdered in some instances. I believe that anyone seriously and objectively examining issues will see exactly what I'm about rather than wonder at how they interpret any verse on my person.

Regards.

what exactly are you driving at? are you saying the ones that had their light so shine have been murdered in some cases so what the heck? i hope not

anyone seriously and objectively examining issues would see intolerance and not agape love, and i'm very well sure that is not what you are about!!

cheers

@Aproko,

Aproko:

you asked why the good ones cry out after the dastardly act has been carried out, and i simply replied saying you should consider the fact that they may not have had any idea of the evil being hatched. or do you think people were aware of osama's plot and encouraged it? i think not.

This simply tells me that you don't read issues at all in the real world. Let me guess: suppose the president of Iran had used his missile against America and afterwards the Muslim clerics come out hypocritically to "denounce" such "barbaric" acts, wuld you still be crying the same tune? Now, he has not used it (and pray he does not) - but what are the same Muslim clerics saying already - are they in support of it or against it?  Please come back and categorically deny this and let me offer you some video clips to watch and convince yourself on the matter. You surprise me because you are arguing merely from hypothesis that are strangely far from reality.

Aproko:

political correctness i have always read as diplomacy, perhaps i'm too set in my ways to change that opinion. perhaps it is more like a lack of tolerance from those that claim to know all feeds the perpetrators of the problems that the diplomats have to contend with.

Diplomacy means nothing to the Muslim middle East. Why do you think that Islam believes in making treaties and BREAKING the same with impunity?

Aproko:

an eye for an eye then? perhaps more blindness is in sight _{(with due respect to otuwe's signature)}

You may want to read it in the other verbiage "tit-for-tat" - and that is simply way off course in what I'm stating.

Aproko:

my dear on the contrary you can present issues without being written off as controversial. perhaps its not what you are presenting, but the way you are presenting it!!

"Perhaps", you say? Please Aproko, do me the favour of entering into a diplomatic discussion with a Muslim whichever way you want to present yourself and your views; then come back with situational report as to whether or not they care who you are or want them to see you as.

Aproko:

what exactly are you driving at? are you saying the ones that had their light so shine have been murdered in some cases so what the heck? i hope not

I'm saying that you're holding a very narrow concept of how you wish others to discuss issues - especially with people who don't care whichever way you want to be read.

Aproko:

anyone seriously and objectively examining issues would see intolerance and not agape love, and i'm very well sure that is not what you are about!!

Come home closer: those who have seen "tolerance" were busy drinking their capuccinos in well airconditioned oval offices when bombs were being set off by jihadists right in their courtyards.

@ pilgrim

Girlfriend, good afternoon! At least, we don't need Bible verse for the greeting, abi?

where is it written that u should greet me good afternoon  

pilgrim.1:

---
"Preaching" the Word does not mean shoving it down anyone's throat. Christians have a double responsibility to both preach the Word as well as to be in readiness for "the defence of the Gospel" (Php. 1:17). Often, people have misconstrued these and feel that only one aspect of our Christian responsibility makes sense without the other. Both go together.

pls dear try to read the post again. i said its better to preach the word to ernest seekers not shove it down the throat of people. i never said said preaching was the same as shoving it down their throat and it was just an advice not an attack.

and if you feel all these muslim christain attack is defence of the gospel then tell me who it has benefited. the more i read all the posts by the christains the more i feel there is no difference btw them and the muslims.

@otuwe,

otuwe:

@ pilgrim
where is it written that u should greet me good afternoon

It is written actually that I should greet not only those that greet me but others as well, abi?

otuwe:

please dear try to read the post again. i said its better to preach the word to ernest seekers not shove it down the throat of people.

I read it the first time; and that's why I offered clarifications to call attention to the fact that making allusions to "shoving it down" anyone's throat was uncalled for. Who's doing the shoving anyway?

otuwe:

i never said said preaching was the same as shoving it down their throat and it was just an advice not an attack.

So I was advising that they are not the same - and that's not an attack, was it?

otuwe:

and if you feel all these muslim christain attack is defence of the gospel then tell me who it has benefited.

I've benefitted a whole lot from Christian responses to most of the Muslim propaganda dressed up as "questions". Ask babs787 who simply loves to do this and never once sits down to wonder what he has been doing. That's one reason why I offered him some of my own questions by opening threads to see what he would say. Others may have nothing to say at what his ilks have been doing; but it has always been an outcry when Christians try to respond.

otuwe:

the more i read all the posts by the christains the more i feel there is no difference between them and the muslims.

You should try to be honest, or make me understand again what exactly you're stating. Is it true and fair that you could refer to all posts by Christians as the same with what Muslims posts? Perhaps that's a personal and forced presumption at that.

pilgrim.1:

@Aproko,

This simply tells me that you don't read issues at all in the real world. Let me guess: suppose the president of Iran had used his missile against America and afterwards the Muslim clerics come out hypocritically to "denounce" such "barbaric" acts, wuld you still be crying the same tune? Now, he has not used it (and pray he does not) - but what are the same Muslim clerics saying already - are they in support of it or against it? Please come back and categorically deny this and let me offer you some video clips to watch and convince yourself on the matter. You surprise me because you are arguing merely from hypothesis that are strangely far from reality.

this simply tells me that you have been brainwashed by the Bush vendetta against the islamic countries!now dont get me started on that one cos this is an issue am particularly passionate about!!!
so Mr. George Bush is the one that would not use his missiles against iran right? oh so holy g. bush and america! now why are you not in iraq fighting against the use of those weapons of mass destruction? why are the bush twins partying and getting drunk instead of fighting in iraq? where indeed are those weapons of mass destruction? wasting precious lives just to feed americas ego!!pls dont give me that crap of missiles my dear cos it would so not fly!!

hypothesis far from reality?now pray tell, are there no reports stating that america was warned on the 9/11 doom? did bush or anybody in charge take it serious enough?my point again dear pilgrim.1 is that there are peace loving muslims who would cry foul after an act has been done simply because that is when they were aware!! until the recording by the french brothers, please did anyone have the full clips of the attack on the wtc?did you not see that attacks and all the hijacks you've been preaching endlessly on tv and the internet or those video clips of yours? why didn't you cry out before the attack on the wtc since you are the campaign manager against muslims? why are you screaming on nairaland after all these attacks? oh please!!! those without guilt should indeed cast the first stone!!

pilgrim.1:


Diplomacy means nothing to the Muslim middle East. Why do you think that Islam believes in making treaties and BREAKING the same with impunity?

making treaties and braking them is a sign of incredibility my dear and not islam!! anybody can make and break treaties my dear! and i mean anybody!!

pilgrim.1:


You may want to read it in the other verbiage "tit-for-tat" - and that is simply way off course in what I'm stating.

tit for tat right? yet another interesting english language coined to blanket a wrong!! really i dont do tit for tat, i can't remember Jesus Christ encouraging me to do that! and to think that i am only a PC christain like davidylan would say _{(whatever that means)}, that means if a PC christain would not tit for tat, i expect more from those non PC christains

pilgrim.1:


"Perhaps", you say? Please Aproko, do me the favour of entering into a diplomatic discussion with a Muslim whichever way you want to present yourself and your views; then come back with situational report as to whether or not they care who you are or want them to see you as.

oh they care quite alright! i have muslim friends. in fact my closest roommates at the Law School were muslims! but i dont have fundamentalist friends in whatever religion, so need of such discussion!!!

pilgrim.1:


I'm saying that you're holding a very narrow concept of how you wish others to discuss issues - especially with people who don't care whichever way you want to be read.

you are getting me wrong! i'm saying there are ways of stating your case and swaying the other party without making them loose their sense of self! i'm a legal practitioner my dear, i do that for a living!!

pilgrim.1:


Come home closer: those who have seen "tolerance" were busy drinking their capuccinos in well airconditioned oval offices when bombs were being set off by jihadists right in their courtyards.

some who have seen no telerance were walking down the street when bombs were been set off from parked vehicles!!!

pilgrim oh pilgrim are u a JP.

i wud be disappointed if you are not.


anyway i don tire for u because right now we are going round and round.

u see an attack in all my post and u try to defend even when im in agreement with you.


you know what, i'll pass right now aiight.

good luck with your supposed defence of the gospel (but i hope defending the gospel doesnt contradict the true message of Christ.)

one love already

while aproko is busy debating issues she knows little or nothing about otuwe has decided to throw in the towel.
A very interesting bunch of sisters.

@davidylan,

Lol. . . I respect people like otuwe - she's my girlfriend O - so talk sofry-sofry about her so that I don't release a scud on you by mistake!

@Aproko,

Aproko:

this simply tells me that you have been brainwashed by the Bush vendetta against the islamic countries!now don't get me started on that one because this is an issue am particularly passionate about!!!
so Mr. George Bush is the one that would not use his missiles against iran right? oh so holy g. bush and america! now why are you not in iraq fighting against the use of those weapons of mass destruction? why are the bush twins partying and getting drunk instead of fighting in iraq? where indeed are those weapons of mass destruction? wasting precious lives just to feed americas ego!!please don't give me that crap of missiles my dear because it would so not fly!!

What is this hogwash you came back with? Where have I insinuated the G. Bush political adventures in my repostes? The one thing that amazes me with this kind of lazy thinking that you acclaim for your passions is that people like you fail to lift p your eyes and see issues for what they really are and then make a quick skit on blame everything on G. Bush!

How many of the dastardly acts by jihadists could you count on your finger tips for your passionate blame-it-on-G-Bush apologetics? Where were you when the same jihadists were busy letting off their bombs on others with no connection to the overblown and  ready excuse of 9-11? Please come back and show me the connecting dots with the Sudan crises and G. Bush's so-called vendetta. The Pakistani case with the Hudood laws which they use against their own citizens? And the Afghanis who are all to happy to do 'Allah's pleasure without a single thought thereto as to whoever G-Bush is?

We're talking about what Islam is in its true colour and you're making such a spin off already because you just can't resist the temptation to bring in your anti-Bush crash course into it. Don't humour me further on that, please. The one thing I often offer people like you is the same one thing you political correctness will ever refuse to do: pick up the Qur'an and Hadiths, check out the references offered, carefully go through the meanings that Muhammad himself claimed upon those same verses - and then let's discuss! What has George Bush got to do with the Hadiths and the Qur'an?

Aproko:

hypothesis far from reality?now pray tell, are there no reports stating that america was warned on the 9/11 doom? did bush or anybody in charge take it serious enough?my point again dear pilgrim.1 is that there are peace loving muslims who would cry foul after an act has been done simply because that is when they were aware!! until the recording by the french brothers, please did anyone have the full clips of the attack on the wtc?did you not see that attacks and all the hijacks you've been preaching endlessly on tv and the internet or those video clips of yours? why didn't you cry out before the attack on the wtc since you are the campaign manager against muslims? why are you screaming on nairaland after all these attacks? oh please!!! those without guilt should indeed cast the first stone!!

You amaze me Aproko. In a hilarious twist of event you've only confirmed and established my summations while thinking you have a case against them! I deliberately left you a sinker and you swallowed it wholesale - America was warned about 9-11 long before it happened: and that is just the shape of things that we could hope for with the sort of "political correctness" you've been shlepping all along! Go figure.

Aproko:

making treaties and braking them is a sign of incredibility my dear and not islam!! anybody can make and break treaties my dear! and i mean anybody!!

I don't suppose you know the first letter about Islam, and it wouldn't help until you've had a good grasp on what you're proposing. First, I wasn't quoting a magazine in reference to the ISLAMIC tenet of BREAKING treaties with IMPUNITY!! Do you care to settle down and weigh the meaning of that statement? That dishonest and hideous practice that you feel to sweep under as "anybody can" is the very bane of the failed attempt to make peace with Muslims in the middle East! They make a treaty with you and then go behind and break it wih IMPUNITY - does that speak to you about the question of moral decency and honest relations? What would you say if someone else comes along as thereby claim that Muslims can't be trusted for such attitudes to TREATIES?!? Please, Aproko try and open your eyes and READ Islam for what it is; and not for what you're supposing it 'might' mean what you can't defend.

Aproko:

tit for tat right? yet another interesting english language coined to blanket a wrong!! really i don't do tit for tat, i can't remember Jesus Christ encouraging me to do that! and to think that i am only a PC christain like davidylan would say (whatever that means), that means if a PC christain would not tit for tat, i expect more from those non PC christains

Please don't pretend to read that into my rejoinder. Unless English has lost its meaning, I pointed out that my posts have nothing to do with either "tit-for-tat" or your pun on "eye for an eye".

Aproko:

oh they care quite alright! i have muslim friends. in fact my closest roommates at the Law School were muslims! but i don't have fundamentalist friends in whatever religion, so need of such discussion!!!

I had Muslim and Christian friends (besides 1 radical atheist) before I came to know the Lord Jesus Christ as my Saviour - and I still have many Muslim friends up until now. The ones we hang out with may not be "fundamentalists"; but if you want to discuss the real face of Islam without the facade and cosmetics, take up my challenge and go live in the acclaimed "Islamic countries" of those places I offered you - nothing more or less. Sitting in the comfy zones and holding attempting to discuss what you haven't a grasp on is not going to wash until you have some substance to your persuasions.

Aproko:

you are getting me wrong! i'm saying there are ways of stating your case and swaying the other party without making them loose their sense of self! i'm a legal practitioner my dear, i do that for a living!!

With all respect to your profession, does legal practice begin and end with making propositions that refuse to look at documented evidence? Would it be too much to ask that you reserve your arguments until after you've read the Qur'an and the Hadiths and see what I've been discussing or debating? Has legal practice been redefined in such a way as to look the other way and refuse to consider the very spirit, motive and claims being made by "the other party" right in their very revered books?

No matter how you try to present issues to a typical Muslim mindset, he has a default ideology to reject everything you say wholesale - be that ever so nice as you may. I don't go out of my way to make the "other party" lose their sense of self - nevermind that is the very thing they do on their own websites!

@otuwe,

otuwe:

pilgrim oh pilgrim are u a JP.

i would be disappointed if you are not.

Oh dearie-dear! I'm not O! It so happens that the school where I wanted to read Law turned down my application - but I go try again sha!

otuwe:

anyway i don tire for u because right now we are going round and round.

u see an attack in all my post and u try to defend even when im in agreement with you.

Lol. . . not so. I see an opportunity for robust rubbing of minds (great minds at that) - and that's why I keep pestering you for love's sake.

otuwe:

you know what, i'll pass right now aiight.

good luck with your supposed defence of the gospel (but i hope defending the gospel doesnt contradict the true message of Christ.)

I haven't yet read someone complaining about a 'contradiction' in my posts. Oh, maybe just one - remember the one on Women Leaders in Church? I'm still holding court with my friends over there!

otuwe:

one love already

Enjoy girlfriend. . . no let any person do you wetin I no go like today O!

davidylan:

while aproko is busy debating issues she knows little or nothing about otuwe has decided to throw in the towel.
A very interesting bunch of sisters.

there you go again!!!!

pilgrim.1:

@davidylan,

Lol. . . I respect people like otuwe - she's my girlfriend O - so talk sofry-sofry about her so that I don't release a scud on you by mistake!

Despite the fact that their posts leave me almost tearing my hair out in frustration i can not help but enjoy their banter. They are a breath of fresh air on this threads. Abeg sofry o, no scuds.

pilgrim.1:


What is this hogwash you came back with? Where have I insinuated the G. Bush political adventures in my repostes? The one thing that amazes me with this kind of lazy thinking that you acclaim for your passions is that people like you fail to lift p your eyes and see issues for what they really are and then make a quick skit on blame everything on G. Bush!

read your post then you'd get my point! why did you give an assumption of iran using weapons? why not the US?

pilgrim.1:


How many of the dastardly acts by jihadists could you count on your finger tips for your passionate blame-it-on-G-Bush apologetics? Where were you when the same jihadists were busy letting off their bombs on others with no connection to the overblown and  ready excuse of 9-11? Please come back and show me the connecting dots with the Sudan crises and G. Bush's so-called vendetta. The Pakistani case with the Hudood laws which they use against their own citizens? And the Afghanis who are all to happy to do 'Allah's pleasure without a single thought thereto as to whoever G-Bush is?

my dear, when you assume all bad must come from the islam, then i want you to look again. that is my point.g. bush is the least of my problems, he was simply a ready example.

pilgrim.1:


We're talking about what Islam is in its true colour and you're making such a spin off already because you just can't resist the temptation to bring in your anti-Bush crash course into it. Don't humour me further on that, please. The one thing I often offer people like you is the same one thing you political correctness will ever refuse to do: pick up the Qur'an and Hadiths, check out the references offered, carefully go through the meanings that Muhammad himself claimed upon those same verses - and then let's discuss! What has George Bush got to do with the Hadiths and the Qur'an?

again, bush is not my problem, but when you classify every muslim as a terrorist is where i will point out to you that terrorism is not only setting off a bomb and hijacking planes.

oh yeah, i am reading the koran right now, and even the life and times of mohammed, and as yet i have failed to see that the koran offers only bad.

pilgrim.1:


You amaze me Aproko. In a hilarious twist of event you've only confirmed and established my summations while thinking you have a case against them! I deliberately left you a sinker and you swallowed it wholesale - America was warned about 9-11 long before it happened: and that is just the shape of things that we could hope for with the sort of "political correctness" you've been shlepping all along! Go figure.

no i'm not sinking at all! you insist the peaceloving muslims cry out only after the act is done, and i wanted you to tell me how to cry out before a disaster. even when there are warnings, dreams, visions, how many people take them serious?

a poster on nairaland said he had a dream that a plane was going to crash, and what response did he get?

my point which you just dont get is that you can't blame the acts of a group of bandits on the whole islam community and the koran!!

pilgrim.1:


I don't suppose you know the first letter about Islam, and it wouldn't help until you've had a good grasp on what you're proposing. First, I wasn't quoting a magazine in reference to the ISLAMIC tenet of BREAKING treaties with IMPUNITY!! Do you care to settle down and weigh the meaning of that statement? That dishonest and hideous practice that you feel to sweep under as "anybody can" is the very bane of the failed attempt to make peace with Muslims in the middle East! They make a treaty with you and then go behind and break it wih IMPUNITY - does that speak to you about the question of moral decency and honest relations? What would you say if someone else comes along as thereby claim that Muslims can't be trusted for such attitudes to TREATIES?!? Please, Aproko try and open your eyes and READ Islam for what it is; and not for what you're supposing it 'might' mean what you can't defend.

again pilgrim.1, anybody can!

pilgrim.1:


Please don't pretend to read that into my rejoinder. Unless English has lost its meaning, I pointed out that my posts have nothing to do with either "tit-for-tat" or your pun on "eye for an eye".

i just wonder why you made reference to muslims insulting jesus in their post! you need not have mentioned it at all, so you caused the confusion dearie.

pilgrim.1:


I had Muslim and Christian friends (besides 1 radical atheist) before I came to know the Lord Jesus Christ as my Saviour - and I still have many Muslim friends up until now. The ones we hang out with may not be "fundamentalists"; but if you want to discuss the real face of Islam without the facade and cosmetics, take up my challenge and go live in the acclaimed "Islamic countries" of those places I offered you - nothing more or less. Sitting in the comfy zones and holding attempting to discuss what you haven't a grasp on is not going to wash until you have some substance to your persuasions.

i lived amongst them my dear, indeed i did! again i'll reiterate my position, not all muslims are fundamntalist!

pilgrim.1:


With all respect to your profession, does legal practice begin and end with making propositions that refuse to look at documented evidence? Would it be too much to ask that you reserve your arguments until after you've read the Qur'an and the Hadiths and see what I've been discussing or debating? Has legal practice been redefined in such a way as to look the other way and refuse to consider the very spirit, motive and claims being made by "the other party" right in their very revered books?

my dear, if you read my post you'd understand that i try to sway people to my side without them loosing their sense of self!! it doesn't mean i'm looking the other way, it simply means i'm showing you a place you may never have looked!

pilgrim.1:


No matter how you try to present issues to a typical Muslim mindset, he has a default ideology to reject everything you say wholesale - be that ever so nice as you may. I don't go out of my way to make the "other party" lose their sense of self - nevermind that is the very thing they do on their own websites!

really pilgrim.1, there are muslims who convert to christainity and all other religions!! it takes a person to want to change, a person can only change if they want to or if they see reason to! so sometimes their default ideology could change!!

you know paul had to pass through his own experiences before he turned his life around! so did you, and so will others! the best you can do really besides praying for those you'd want to see cross the fence, is not to treat them the way they treat you, its to treat them better than they treat you. if their website tries to incite hate, let yours only show love. don't match their angry words with angry words of your own. your expected change would happen, but certainly not overnight and i get this feeling you'd prefer it to happen overnight!!! it may for some, but not for all.

cheers.

Aproko:

my point which you just don't get is that you can't blame the acts of a group of bandits on the whole islam community and the koran!!

not even when those terrorists base their constitution on ACTUAL verses in the quran?

davidylan:

while aproko is busy debating issues she knows little or nothing about otuwe has decided to throw in the towel.
A very interesting bunch of sisters.

i cant believe u saw this as some kind of competion and that i have surrendered. shame on u man.

secondly i never knew u were frustrated, i guess it was because i opened ur eyes a little and told u things u know as truth but dont want to accept so u can continue in ur spiritual indolence


i only signed off cos this has become a debate like u called it, and am not the debating type, let the lawyers in the house work it out.
aproko dont forget to ask prigim for bible references she loves them alot. i dont know whether the more the no of bible quotes we know wud determine our enterance to heaven

madam Otuwe, neither am i interested in "Debating" with you since its obvious you are CLEARLY blind. You have FAILED to give EVEN ONE biblical reference for your heresies rather making spurious claims that dont hold water.

Now you attempt to dodge that by asking whether it is the number of verses we know that will determine our qualifications for heaven. No ma it is definitely not but how can you aspire to get to heaven when you have not even read the users manual (bible)?

davidylan:

madam Otuwe, neither am i interested in "Debating" with you since its obvious you are CLEARLY blind. You have FAILED to give EVEN ONE biblical reference for your heresies rather making spurious claims that don't hold water.

Now you attempt to dodge that by asking whether it is the number of verses we know that will determine our qualifications for heaven. No ma it is definitely not but how can you aspire to get to heaven when you have not even read the users manual (bible)?

oga david,

its either u r the same with pilgrim 1(which i really doubt) or u just enjoy poking ur nose in other people's biz. maybe aproko should exchange her user name with u tatafo!!!

anyway next time respond to posts that concerns u and dont take panadol for another man's headache


as for who is blind why dont we let God decide that or are u His minister for Justice to u i may be blind but to Him am His beloved child ok. .

as for your references, truth is truth and i stand for the Truth no matter where it is found ok. and if i see something dat is untrue i wont stand for it even if its in the Bible.
if u dont accept or believe it , it is ur problem not mine. am not here to force u to believe anything but to share the Truth with people who are seeking for it. and i dont need quotations for it. thank you.

and as for Bible being the manuel to heaven, puuuuuulease give me a break i no fit shout. is it the Bible that has been tampered with or the original one.

BTW you dont want to debate with me so why did u respond to my post just an observation though

wowwwwwwwwwwww
nairaland be great!!
but some of you should watch ur mouth o
hmmmmm
oya, am gone!

no point going on the defensive Otuwe;
1. this is a public forum so there is nothing like "mind your business here" unless you want to go continue your heresies on yahoo messenger with whoever you please.

2. I was responding to the post you addressed to me - unless that is also someone else's business.

3. You cant be God's beloved child IF you rubbish His gift of salvation, choose works without faith (it is dead!), stick to a "truth" that cannot be proven anywhere in the bible and believe the bible is NO longer the word of God since it has been tampered with (according to you).

4. Dont even start with the "thou shalt not judge" sermon you all use when you are looking for a loophole to escape.

5. The fact that you are suddenly on the defensive is indication your foundation is shaky at best.

6. i have a full life that is not dependent on whether you are here for me to respond to or not. You are free to ignore my posts but unless you no longer understand the meaning of the word "public", never tell others to mind their business.

7. you may stop bristling, no one is forcing the bible on you,, you are free to chuck urs under ur bed or at best give it out to those who want to read the "tampered" manual of their "murdered" saviour while you keep your own "truth".

otuwe:

Is it the Bible that has been tampered with or the original one.

*** clears throat****
Which do you use, Otuwe? I'm suspecting u now, .  

Why didn't you all ignore him? This should have been a one post thread. He's achieved his desired effect.

davidylan:

no point going on the defensive Otuwe;
1. this is a public forum so there is nothing like "mind your business here" unless you want to go continue your heresies on yahoo messenger with whoever you please.

3. You can't be God's beloved child IF you rubbish His gift of salvation, choose works without faith (it is dead!), stick to a "truth" that cannot be proven anywhere in the bible and believe the bible is NO longer the word of God since it has been tampered with (according to you).

4. Dont even start with the "thou shalt not judge" sermon you all use when you are looking for a loophole to escape.

5. The fact that you are suddenly on the defensive is indication your foundation is shaky at best.

6. i have a full life that is not dependent on whether you are here for me to respond to or not. You are free to ignore my posts but unless you no longer understand the meaning of the word "public", never tell others to mind their business.

7. you may stop bristling, no one is forcing the bible on you,, you are free to chuck urs under your bed or at best give it out to those who want to read the "tampered" manual of their "murdered" saviour while you keep your own "truth".

1. thanks for the reminder i wud IM my girlfriends aproko and pilgrim and we wud continue from where we stopped. i apologise for telling u to mind urself. i guess its only seun dat can do it
3. like i said before let Him decide. there is a way that seems right unto man (u) but the end thereof is destruction
4. i didnt start with thou shall not judge. you perceived it as dat. i apologise
5. if my post shows am defensive then what do u call urs . . . offensive? i'd rather be defensive than offensive dear
6. its good to know dat. i tot i was the defensive one, y are u copying me
7. dont worry abt what i should do with my bible. am doing wat i should do with it already

have a lovely time.

OlowoTee:

*** clears throat****
Which do you use, Otuwe? I'm suspecting u now, .

my dear IM me and i wud tell u. if i say it here davidylan wud poke nose

donjohano:

Why didn't you all ignore him? This should have been a one post thread. He's achieved his desired effect.

men i wonder oh. but even if everybody ignored him davidylan wont. dont u know he is the persecutor of unbelivers the way saul was the persecutor of Christains.

*davidylan go kill me today oh*

doyenn i quite agree with you ur believes. it's takes one with wisdom from GOD, "WISDOM" to know, to find, to seek, to believe, to accept n to live life to the will of Allah
pilgrim.1 -Say not wat u dont fully understand abt the Al-Koran, if u were so sure of yourself hw come u dont know dat God never discriminate almost if prophet.
davidylan- u dont have to be insultive to be heard, how abt if u were wrong. live rooms for forgiveness of your sin, knowingly n the unknown sin . Live life like its will end the next second be fearful of your creator
it is only ignorant dat lives in isolation, why do we study the science of life, i wonder if u people know dat 2 angels will visit you in your grave the moment your laid down 6 feets below the ground. A judgement before the judgement day. find peace with ur God, seek him and u shall find.
Lastly, i am not saying come be a muslim but be watchful of what u say abt Prophet Muhammed(S.A.W). he has made is HEAVEN, just as Jesus , WHAT ABT U
ma salam

flavourfla:

doyenn i quite agree with you your believes. it's takes one with wisdom from GOD, "WISDOM" to know, to find, to seek, to believe, to accept n to live life to the will of Allah
pilgrim.1 -Say not what u don't fully understand about the Al-Koran, if u were so sure of yourself hw come u don't know that God never discriminate almost if prophet.
davidylan- u don't have to be insultive to be heard, how about if u were wrong. live rooms for forgiveness of your sin, knowingly n the unknown sin . Live life like its will end the next second be fearful of your creator
it is only ignorant that lives in isolation, why do we study the science of life, i wonder if u people know that 2 angels will visit you in your grave the moment your laid down 6 feets below the ground. A judgement before the judgement day. find peace with your God, seek him and u shall find.
Lastly, i am not saying come be a muslim but be watchful of what u say about Prophet Muhammed(S.A.W). he has made is HEAVEN, just as Jesus , WHAT ABT You
ma salam

your first post in nairaland, and all you can say is something close to nonesense. very pathetic!

@topic

while I am not a fan of religious imposition, allowing this topic to move on un-abated is inescusable.

saying Jesus is a slave of God, reflects your mentality and orientation. very sad!
My case is this,
Isa was mentioned in the Quran, whatever u think of him is your business, but to relate him to Jesus in the Bible, is latter day madness.

using simple logic, let us assume God is false, let us assume we are all products evolution. don't you ^{in your right thinking sense} think that numerous crimes have been commited against humanity in the name of islam?
how do u explain a religion, where the messenger and message contradict each other.

u say islam is a religion of peace, was mohammed a man of peace? are his descendants and followers in their hundreds of million, men and women of peace? what moral justification do u give to a religion where its members create chaos, kill others, ruin lives and hoping to reap peace in paradise, in return?

true, you say not all muslims are extremists, but i don't know and havent heard of any Christian who has killed, kidnapped, terrorised, ruined lives and homes in the name of the bible or as a commandment of Christ.

now I ask you, that I may know, under sane and mental human comprehension, which would you prefer? a religion that preaches and acts peace or one that preaches peace, acts war in expection for a peaceful reward.

your answers will reflect your intelligence.
I don't expect u to see my point of view due to your bigotry. but I do expect you to keep the intellectual inadequacies of your morally bankrupt religion to your self.

put religion aside, learn morallity, then pick up religion again, I don't think u will still be a muslim.

This is a pathetic situation oh sorry thread.
According to u poster u said Quran.
But we are xtians and definitely know what the bible says alone.
Doesnt it amaze u when u remember that JESUS was mentioned in the Quran and Mohammed not even tot of in the bible.
It high time we all reasoned well.
The bible i believe in has made my understanding of the doctrine swift.
If u need to know if My Lord Jesus Chrit was a slave or the son of God, pls read thru the gospels of
Saints Matthew, Mark, Luke and John. ok

The assetion below sums up the difference between the children of God and slaves of allah:

Christianity= I will DIE for my beliefs!!

Islam= YOU will DIE for my beliefs!!

Nuff said.

Many things that God is reported to have done in the bible are evil, so slavery is no exception.

God never do evil, man get that into your head

@davidilan
I have been following your posts on this forum.
It seems you have been to heaven before now.You just open your bucal cavity and say whatever comes out of it.
You have never seen any good thing about the Islamic faith. There is no objectivity in everything you have been saying in this forum.