tintingz: @alexis...so how old was Mary when she was betroth, married and pregnant? since you know better than the catholic priest scholars and the jewish culture

alexis:

The Bible never said anything about her age. You claimed she was 12. You should answer the question where you saw it in the Bible. While at it, ask the Catholic priests where they read she was 12 in the Bible as well.

tintingz: dude you are not making any sense...must everything be said in the bible? Why do we have history records... The historian, early churchs knew the age of Mary(as) when she got married to Joseph and it was 12 yr old do your research... is like asking same in the Quran what age was Aisha(r) when she married Mohammed(sa)

Maybe i should direct you to this link Was Jesus Crucified On A
Cross, Pole, Or Stake?
http://nairaland.com/1162765/jesus-crucified-cross-pole-stake

I will be waiting for your answers there from the bible scriptures, i dont wanna post in this thread again

alexis:

nagoma - "By the way what was the marriage custom in your own community 1500 years ago? I guess you were intermarrying with gorillas and chimpanzees. Tell me how your ancestors did their marriage 1500 years ago - Assuming they ever did". So it has switched from the topic at hand to my ancestors now abi? . Let me tell you something about my ancestors that predates 1500 years ago - they were smart enough to KNOW THE SUN DIDN'T SET IN A POOL OF WARM WATER. . Yet your prophet in all his wisdom and with all the revelations he received didn't know where the sun set.

alexis:
nagoma - "By the way what was the marriage custom in your own community 1500 years ago? I guess you were intermarrying with gorillas and chimpanzees. Tell me how your ancestors did their marriage 1500 years ago - Assuming they ever did". So it has switched from the topic at hand to my ancestors now abi? . Let me tell you something about my ancestors that predates 1500 years ago - they were smart enough to KNOW THE SUN DIDN'T SET IN A POOL OF WARM WATER. . Yet your prophet in all his wisdom and with all the revelations he received didn't know where the sun set.

nagoma:

I am using a small device so cannot reproduce your rather repetitive comments here but I will attempt to cover them.
1. Talking about what your ancestors 's marriage customs were 1500 years ago, you evaded the question as expected. The aim of the question is to tell you that 14-1500 years is a very long time and few cultures in the world would have records of marriages at that time and the ages of the brides. But I can tell you that child marriage both between 2 chidden and between a child bride and an older man were common in most societies including Europian societies. Some of the sociological reasons for that were a) the importance of chastity and preservation of Virginity in girls. b). Economic reasons as girls and women had less opportunity to live and independent life, work and earn a living.
Marriage of the female child still takes place in many cultures around the world but is reducing due partly, to advocacy for children's right , women's right and human rights in general. You cannot make a judgement of issues related to specific cultures of events that happened 14- 1500 years ago based on today's values just because it gives you a cheap means of ridiculing Islam. Values do change with time, that is why those who at this time openly object to homosexuality and same sex marriage are considered intolerant and out of tune or even oppressors! This was not so years ago. I will comment about your geography/ astronomy question of the water sunset next. But I will remind you to tell me how your ancestors married and the age of their brides 1500 years ago - for you even 500 years ago would be fine- assuming that you didn't forcibly marry monkeys.

nagoma:

I wonder how you got to know your ancestors expertise in astronomy and geography when the Christian world was drowning in ignorance , dogma and superstition at that time. Why did your ancestors not talk? Must have been the fear of the inquisition, the punitive heracy laws and death from blasphemy convictions.
You will know about the Italian philosopher , astronomer and mathematician named Galileo ( 1564 - 1642). He made subscription that the world was round and not flat and the sun and not the earth was the center of the planetary universe. He. Nearly lost his life as these assertions contradicted the views of Christianity and the church. He had to in 1615 face the church inquisition and was tortured and forced to withdraw his proclamation of face death. He still had to live the rest of his life under house arrest.the history of torture and killings by the church will fill a small library. I am sure you know that.
The other part of this comment is that ; the islamic ruler of Baghdad Khalif El- Ma'amun ( ruled 813-833 CE) who was the spiritual and political leader of the Muslim world at that time., sent surveyors to make measurements that would make it possible to measure the diameter of the earth. They did, and from this obtained the radius of the globe. Their estimates , according to experts compare very well even to the values used today.the point is that you must know that the world is not flat but round to ask for a dimeter measurement.radius and diameter are indices applicable to circles and spheres only. This happened 800 years before Galeleo and his ordeal. The Muslim Khalif was at least 800 years ahead of the Christian world in this respect at that time. As for your sunset in water , it is not in the Qur'an and if it's Hadith , it will need to be authenticated. As you are aware after the time of Muhammad ( SAW) the Jews fabricated and proliferated false hadiths to spite and possibly destroy Islam , they ( you) are still doing that and this must be one of the fabricated hadiths, unless you can trace it's origin and chain of transmission. Such a matter considered so seriously would have been in the Quoran if it was not a fabrication.

alexis:

Now, you are here claiming that the Hadith I quoted is not authentic - NA WA OH!. So, you are denying your own Hadith because it tells you the truth?
Common Islamic defense of bringing up totally different subject to get off topic. Leave this for another discussion or open a thread and we will discuss it. Stick to this one for now.
Perhaps Mohammed should have done the same thing the islamic ruler of Baghdad Khalif El- Ma'amun (ruled 813-833 CE) did before he claimed the sun set in a pool of warm water. You are now blaming his statements on the Jews that they distorted your Hadith. Your ignorance is laughable.
The Bible indicates that the earth is round/circle. It did so before your Galileo or your muslim ruler attempted to. Yet Allah in all his Wisdom couldn't clarify that but some jews wanted to LIE on Mohammed so bad that they introduced false Hadiths that muslims read everyday - NA WA OH!.
zkak - Said the Hadith was in-correct but from a muslim source. You are here saying it was the Jews that wrote that Hadith that muslims read. Probably you two should sit down and verify which is which before you display your fallacy online.

alexis:


You keep shooting yourself in the foot. Justifying marriage to a 6 year old that it was a cultural thing that happened 1500 years ago is a cheap way of tackling the problem. You also stated that it was done in other societies i.e. European societies as well trying to rationalize it and make it acceptable. In justifying your statements; your friends said Mary was 12 years old yet haven't been able to prove it when asked to; as if 12 and 6 are the same? Makes me wonder where they learned math from. All they can say is - it was the custom of the Jews. Totally void of any sound reasoning just to score religious points.

Stop claiming it is primarily cultural, such marriages are permitted under SHARIA LAW and it has been happening since your prophet married an underage girl and it is still happening now. If your claim that it is cultural and the arabs did it, why is child marriage so rampant with muslims in Northern Nigeria & other Islamic countries? Are northern Nigerians Arabs? Are muslims in Bangladesh Arabs? For you to tackle the primary cause that Islam permits child marriage and it should stop, you are here shouting - IT IS CULTURAL AND HAPPENED 1500 years ago, so it is okay.

Maybe I should give you example of your Islamic scholars and their views so you will know it is not a cultural thing nor was it confined to 1500 years ago:

1. Skeikh Mohamed Ibn Abderrahmane Al-Maghraoui - A nine-year-old girl has the same sexual capacities like a woman of twenty and over

2. Dr. Ahmad al-Mu’bi, Saudi marriage officiant - You can have a marriage contract even with a 1-year-old girl, not to mention a girl of 9, 7 or 8. But is the girl ready for sex or not? What is the appropriate age for sex for the first time? This varies according to environment and tradition

3. Sheikh Mohamed Ben Abderrahman Al-Maghraou - The marriage of nine-year-old girls is not forbidden because according to the Hadith (the Prophet Mohammed's sayings), Mohammed married Aisha when she was only seven-years-old and he consummated his union when she was nine

4. Imam Sani, a Nigerian cleric - Child marriage in Islam is permissible. In the Koran there is no specific age of marriage...[If the government imposed new laws against child marriage] There will be violent conflict from the Muslims, saying that 'no, we will not accept this, we'd rather die than accept something which is not a law from Allah

5. Sheikh Hamoud Hashim al-Tharihi, general secretary of the Vice and Virtue Committee and member of the Islah Party in Yemen - Because this happened to the Prophet, we cannot tell people that it is prohibited to marry at an early age

6. Mufti Fazlul Haque Amini - Banning child marriage will cause challenging the marriage of the holy prophet of Islam, who also married minor Ayesha, when she was just eight years old. The new law [seeking to ban child marriages] initiated by the current government [of Bangladesh] will put the moral character of the prophet into controversy and challenge. Islam permits child marriage and it will not be tolerated if any ruler will ever try to touch this issue in the name of giving more rights to women.

Let me bring it home for you in Nigeria before you claim again it is cultural. One Islamic land where child marriage is common -- in fact, more common than anywhere else in the world -- is northern Nigeria, where Sharia is in force. The Nigerian government has tried to act against the practice, passing a law in 2003, the Child Rights Act, that set the minimum age for marriage at eighteen. Islamic clerics have been the fiercest opponents of this law. Nigeria is made up of 36 states, of which 18 have passed the Child Rights Act; however, only one majority-Muslim Nigerian state has passed the law, and that with a change that set "puberty," rather than the age of eighteen, as the minimum requirement for lawful marriage. The result? As many as 800,000 Nigerian women are afflicted with fistula, a disease resulting from early intercourse and pregnancy.

Go on claiming that it is cultural and it only happened in Mohammed era.

nagoma:

You forgot to refer me to the verse in the bible where it says the world is round. I wonder why those wicked Christians had to torture the poor scientist Galeleo accusing him of heresy. Don't they read the bible? So they didn't see that verse either?

tintingz: @alexis

In keeping
with Jewish custom, the
betrothal would have taken place when she was around 12, and the birth of Jesus about a year later.
http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mary_(mother_of_Jesus)


-- Joseph, Mary's
husband, was "90 years old"
when he married 12 to 14-year old Mary!

Joseph was a much older
man. therefore Mary was
younger than 11-14 years of
age when she was
"BETHROED" to Joseph. We
Muslims would never call
Joseph a Child Molester, nor
would we refer to the "Holy
Ghost" of the Bible, that
"Impregnated" Mary as a
"Rapist" or "Adulterer".


According to the Priest of
Saint Mary's Catholic Church:
"Mary was approximately 14
years old when she got
pregnant with Jesus. Joseph,
Mary's Husband is believed to
be around 36. Mary was only
13 when she married Joseph.
When she first was arranged
with Joseph she was between
7 to 9 years old."


According to the "Oxford
Dictionary Bible"
commentary, Mary (peace be
upon her) was was 12 years
old when she became
impregnated.
www.turntoislam.com/forum/showthread.php?t=37462

The whole thing about age 3 is a technicality's technicality. Withregards to certain laws, activity below the age of 3 does not affect her halachic status (for instance, a woman still has the halachic full status of "virginity" no matter what happened to her before age 3). [Lawyers' note: any sort of child abuse is halachically, legally, and morallywrong, and will be punished by G-d and state.] Sexual relations can only change her halachic status starting with age 3; hence, if a father agreed to marry off his young daughter byrelations (violating two Talmudic taboos, above), the minimum age at which such an act would take effect would be 3 THE JEW LAW(TALMUD) ALLOW MEN MARRYING A 3YR OLD BABY
http://judaism.stackexchange.com/questions/4751/apologetics-for-marriage-at-3-years-old


Common to all wedding ceremonies is the concept of transitioning between childhood and adulthood. In many African cultures children are encouraged to marry as young as 13 to 15 years of age, assoon as they have reached physical adulthood.
http://www.worldweddingtraditions.com/locations/african_traditions.html


Child marriage and child betrothal customs occur in various times and places, wherebychildren are given in matrimony - before marriageable age as defined by the commentator and often before puberty. Today suchcustoms are fairly widespread in parts of Africa , Asia , Oceania and South America : in former times it occurred also in Europe. It is frequently associated with arranged marriage . In some casesonly one marriage-partner is a child, usually the female, due to importance placed upon female virginity , the perceived inability of women to work for money and towomen's shorter reproductive liferelative to men's. An increase in the advocacy of human rights , whether as women's rights or as children's rights , has caused traditions of child marriage to decrease in many areas. In 2011, The Elders formed Girls Not Brides, a global partnership of more than 190 non-governmentalorganisations committed to addressing child marriage.
http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Child_marriage


I think this links are enough for you to know that it is a culture thing in the old time...even in America and Europe it happens before...so you cant judge the arabs nor jews for child marriage cuz it their culture even here in africa

So what are you(we) saying?

alexis:


You keep shooting yourself in the foot. Justifying marriage to a 6 year old that it was a cultural thing that happened 1500 years ago is a cheap way of tackling the problem. You also stated that it was done in other societies i.e. European societies as well trying to rationalize it and make it acceptable. In justifying your statements; your friends said Mary was 12 years old yet haven't been able to prove it when asked to; as if 12 and 6 are the same? Makes me wonder where they learned math from. All they can say is - it was the custom of the Jews. Totally void of any sound early intercourse and pregnancy.
era.

tintingz: any source for this your listed trash...

alexis:

Call them up and ask them. Write the Pope in Rome and ask why his Church did it.

Here is the verse you asked for Isaiah 40:22.

Again, this topic is not about the Bible and it's claim, it's about the Quran, Hadith and it's own claim.

nagoma:
You have not told me at what age girls were married in your community 1500 years ago.

It's such a pain discussing with a cantankerous person. I have not in anyway justified child marriage. I only tried to explain sociologically ( not religiously ) why it was and is still happening. You keep dwelling on the prophet just to score cheap pouts against Islam when your priests , your intercessors are violating little boys with impunity as we speak. The law of Christian silence is hiding them frm prosecution. They are not even sacked from the church. The man ( steward to the pope who tried to blow the whistle was quickly bundled up and imprisoned. Deal with this reality instead of worrying about Muhammad.

alexis:

I will provide it. However, I am still waiting for your PROOF that Mary was 12 years old when she married Joseph.

tintingz: can you tell us what age...?

alexis:
Call them up and ask them. Write the Pope in Rome and ask why his Church did it.
Here is the verse you asked for Isaiah 40:22.
Again, this topic is not about the Bible and it's claim, it's about the Quran, Hadith and it's own claim.

alexis:

If you haven't justified child marriage - Then you are against Mohammed marrying Aisha?. Perhaps if you read my response to you more closely and see where I mentioned it even though it might be a cultural issue; in Islam it is permitted, even 1500 years later.

You supposedly knew my ancestors because you called them Gorillas and monkeys - I replied that even if they were - they don't molest and marry their young and they sure knew where the sun set

alexis:

The Bible never gave an account of her AGE oh! I have told you this already, I never made the claim. So, that is why I am interested in your account of her age when she married. Your only source is Jewish customs and the Catholic church - is that all you can come up with? The Hadith was VERY precise and on point when it stated the AGE that Mohammed married Aisha & it CONFIRMED IT.

33:21 Ye have indeed in the Apostle of Allah a beautiful pattern (of conduct) for any one whose hope is in Allah and the Final Day, and who engages much in the Praise of Allah.

nagoma:

I saw circle of the earth in a sentence. Did the pope in 1615 not read the bible? Or did he not see it and interpret it as you did?Or perhaps this is in the newest version of the bible? - I understand there are many different versions.

tintingz: so how do the catholic knew about her age

tintingz: ^hahahaha funny fellow

Catholic brought christianity to Nigeria and they honour Mary to extent that she became their godess(Mary mother of God) so they have every historical prove about Mary's life time and other saints

So dont come here telling me Aisha(r) was 9yr old when she got married to the Prophet(sa) cuz many historical written tells us she was 15 to 16 years when she(Aisha(r) married Mohammed(sa)

alexis:

Now, you are here claiming that the Hadith I quoted is not authentic - NA WA OH!. So, you are denying your own Hadith because it tells you the truth?

Common Islamic defense of bringing up totally different subject to get off topic. Leave this for another discussion or open a thread and we will discuss it. Stick to this one for now.

Perhaps Mohammed should have done the same thing the islamic ruler of Baghdad Khalif El- Ma'amun (ruled 813-833 CE) did before he claimed the sun set in a pool of warm water. You are now blaming his statements on the Jews that they distorted your Hadith. Your ignorance is laughable.

The Bible indicates that the earth is round/circle. It did so before your Galileo or your muslim ruler attempted to. Yet Allah in all his Wisdom couldn't clarify that but some jews wanted to LIE on Mohammed so bad that they introduced false Hadiths that muslims read everyday - NA WA OH!.

zkak - Said the Hadith was in-correct but from a muslim source. You are here saying it was the Jews that wrote that Hadith that muslims read. Probably you two should sit down and verify which is which before you display your fallacy online.

alexis:
tintingz - I have set the record straight, whether you choose to believe it or not is up to you.

If your HISTORY tells you Aisha was 15 to 16 years before Mohammed married her - please show us that history. The Hadith claimed she was 6 and 7. You still haven't proved Mary was 12, now you are here claiming Aisha was 15 to 16. I will leave you to your own reasoning. Good luck and God bless.

tintingz:


keep on naming your trinity god head...Allah s.w.t condemn the gods that were practice by the arab pagans...maybe you should read 1king 22:22 why jehovah sent a LYING SPIRIT TO ALL HIS PROPHETS?

1 Kings 22:22 " 'By what means?' the LORD asked. " 'I will go out and be a LYING spirit in the mouths of all his prophets,' he said. " 'You will succeed in enticing him,' said the LORD. 'Go and do it.'

Infact jehovah has an EVIL SPIRIT

Hallie27:
*passing by*........
No wonder the first suicide bombing recorded in history was done by followers of christ, go study ur history very well...
Little wonder The Americans and israelis cant just stop invading muslim countries,because of their greed,covetuosness nd bloodlust, and when muslims defend themselves,they call them 'terrorists'...
And pls stop arguing, concentrate on how you'll make it to heaven, if you feel all muslims are doomed, then leave us to our problems,we aint complainin to you,are we?
Na wa oh.....