nferyn:

Which is, of course, also only your opinion

Nope, not my opinion. The Bible said so and I believe the Bible.

alheri:

Nope, not my opinion. The Bible said so and I believe the Bible.

But [i]Chrisd [/i]read the Bibe differently and he is as much a Christian as you are. Who is right then?

Am not arguing he's a christian if he says he is. But the Bible says in John 14:6 " Jesus said to him " I am the way, the truth and the life. No one comes to the father except through me". Thats the way to the Father in the Bible, if he's a christian then he should know: Theres only ONE way.

Muslims do give Jesus a central position as one of the prophets
There are also a significant number of Christians who have never used or heard of the Bible. Does that make them less Christian?

I really dont know what that makes them. I just pray they have the priviledge of reading and learning from it soon.

Am not arguing he's a christian if he says he is. But the Bible says in John 14:6 " Jesus said to him " I am the way, the truth and the life. No one comes to the father except through me". Thats the way to the Father in the Bible, if he's a christian then he should know: Theres only ONE way.

When Jesus said " I am the way, the truth and the life. No one comes to the father except through me", Jesus used this illustration to reveal God's attitude towards our sins and how absurd it is to think that we can pay it back.

Someone had to suffer and pay for our sins since God is JUST. It was Jesus. Therefore, I should admit my sin, turn from my sin, believe and receive the gift of forgiveness and praise to God . Jesus had made peace with God possible again. That's what that means.

Here the words in Romans 2:14-16 are pertinent:

14. Indeed, when Gentiles, who do not have the law, do by nature things required by the law, they are a law for themselves, even though they do not have the law.

15. They show that the requirements of the law are written on their hearts, their consciences also bearing witness, and their thoughts now accusing, now even defending them.

16. This will take place on the day when God judges everyone's secrets through Jesus Christ, as my gospel declares.

chrisd:

When Jesus said " I am the way, the truth and the life. No one comes to the father except through me", Jesus used this illustration to reveal God's attitude towards our sins and how absurd it is to think that we can pay it back.

Someone had to suffer and pay for our sins since God is JUST. It was Jesus. Therefore, I should admit my sin, turn from my sin, believe and receive the gift of forgiveness and praise to God . Jesus had made peace with God possible again. That's what that means.

I agree completely. Jesus made peace with God possible, Jesus is the way.

Two clear Biblical teachings:

1. Salvation is made possible by the death of Christ on the cross. Apart from Christ and what he did, there is no salvation. (Acts 4:12, John 14:6; Lk 10:22). The concept of salvation is of what Christ did and not about those who seek God’s mercy while practicing some other religion (or none).

2. Non-Christians can, at least in principle, perceive God’s righteousness and their need for His mercy. (Romans 1:18-20, 2:14-16; Acts 17:28). Again here there is no mention about Jesus, only on God. So yes one can get to God. And Yes muslims recognize Jesus. The problem is that it is not as many christians expect them to. Snobbery in my opinion.

God will not turn away people who seek His mercy, even if their understanding of Him is vague and they understanding of Christ.
(Some of God’s people in the Old Testament knew little about Him and His works; one example appears to be Melchisedek.)

To me, they are not the same.

The God i serve aint a 'moon god'

He is the father of our Lord Jesus Christ and the father of all who believe in His son!

Acts 4:12
Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved.

Revelation means that Jesus brought information about God's being. Jesus spoke about a relationship as between father and son.

There cannot be any difference between them concerning their attributes. God the father and Jesus the son are different ways of God's revelation to the world. The meaning of salvation, means salvation to mankind, not to any particulat individual. Salvation means that if God himself did not pay the price, there was no possibility for forgiveness and reconsiliation with God.

God's trinity is based on the biblical revelation that God is Love (I John 4:8, 16). Love cannot exist all alone; it is by very nature directed toward another. We love someone or something, who is the object of our love. In fact, in order for love to exist there must be three elements:

1. A "Lover", that is, one who does the loving
2. A "Beloved" - the one who is loved, and
3. The Love itself which binds them together

Now if God is Love, and love needs these three elements, then these elements must exist in God. And they do: God the Father is the Eternal Lover, God the Son is the Beloved (Eph 1:6; Mt 3:17) and the Holy Spirit is the Divine Love binding Them together eternally.

This is also an excellent image of the Holy Trinity, for it clearly reveals the origin of the Beloved Son. The Second Person Jesus the son is the Personal Expression of the Father's eternal Self-Concept. Thus the Beloved Son is also called the "Word" (John 1:1), the Expression or Utterance of God. The Father loves the Son because the latter is a perfect Image of Himself (Col 1:16; He 1:3), a perfect Self-Concept (after all, how could the Omniscient One have an imperfect Self-Concept?). And the Holy Spirit arises from the Father's love for His Son/Word.

The main difference being that the Former are three distinct Persons, while the latter are not.

Hey chrisd,

I didn't know you were into gnosticism (although I could have guessed)

All the other ideas all fall short.

Most people mess things up, a lot. What is your opinion on the matter. For me the muslim belief and view of God in enough. The problem is that it is not as most christian people expect them too, especially those who hold a fundamentalist approach to the Bible.

I don't really care if it's gnosticism or lungabungalunga for that matter. At least that approach has not got crazy ideas.

If you're a gnostic Christian, you consider Christ to be the medium that allows you to obtain knowledge of God, a face of God that allows humanity to take a glimpse of the perfection that is God, because it is impossible for mortals to conceive God.

The Muslims don't consider Jesus in that light, although their perception of God is very similar.

I must say that I have much sympathy for the gnostic view, unfortunately, that tradition was thoroughly erradicated when the Catholic Church became the official Roman State Church under Constantine. They sought to replace humanity and the quest for knowledge by obedience to authority and anti-intellectualism.

As to obedience to authority and anti-intellectualism, I surely not agree with them. Am not exactly gnostic then but very close.

Chrisd,

You talked about salvation for mankind.

Mankind will have to accept that salvation in Christ now or they will have to pay for it for themselves when the time comes.

Have u heard of the great tribulation before... Which (according to the scriptures) is to take place after believers have been raptured?

You pay for your sins not for not accepting salvation in Christ.

Is that what you think, they haven't yet turtured you and you say you are paying for sins.

They havent put a crown of thorns on your head and nailed you to a cross and you say you are paying for sin.

Hebrews 9:22 
22[In fact] under the Law almost everything is purified by means of blood, and without the shedding of blood there is neither release from sin and its guilt nor the remission of the due and merited punishment for sins.    

Mathew 24:15

15"So when you see standing in the holy place 'the abomination that causes desolation,' spoken of through the prophet Daniel—let the reader understand— 16then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains. 17Let no one on the roof of his house go down to take anything out of the house. 18Let no one in the field go back to get his cloak. 19How dreadful it will be in those days for pregnant women and nursing mothers! 20Pray that your flight will not take place in winter or on the Sabbath. 21For then there will be great distress, unequaled from the beginning of the world until now—and never to be equaled again. 22If those days had not been cut short, no one would survive, but for the sake of the elect those days will be shortened.

I agree completely. Jesus made peace with God possible, Jesus is the way.

Confusion in its entirety! I thought, in your confused christendom, Jesus was god, so who did he make peace with possible? Himself?

There can only be One God, ALLAH! The Sublime!

god, allah, olodumare, dieu or whatever means exatly the same thing

[]
I agree completely. Jesus made peace with God possible, Jesus is the way.

Confusion in its entirety! I thought, in your confused christendom, Jesus was god, so who did he make peace with possible? Himself?

[/quote]

If you want to put it that way, yes. God, Jesus Christ and the Holy spirit are indeed ONE and the same. One in essense, three in personality,TOGETHER IN UNITY. (I know that is too much for you to comprehend).

[]

There can only be One God, ALLAH! The Sublime!
[quote]

Yes and that is definately not His name to me!

If you want to put it that way, yes. God, Jesus Christ and the Holy spirit are  indeed ONE and the same. One in essense, three in personality,TOGETHER IN UNITY. (I know that is too much for you to comprehend). 

Even elementary school students know that three persons are not one and vice versa. Your assertion is ridiculous and; also, your belief is laughable. How can I comprehend an illusion?

1 Corinthians 2:14
But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

To Gos belong the most beautiful names. Whether you say God or Allah, as long as you believe in a supreme being who originated the world and all in it and do not associate partners with Him, you are on the right track

Ajisafe:

Even elementary school students know that three persons are not one and vice versa. Your assertion is ridiculous and; also, your belief is laughable. How can I comprehend an illusion?

Don't forget we're talking about God here. You tend to look at things from the physical/natural perspective.

Ajisafe:


Even elementary school students know that three persons are not one and vice versa. Your assertion is ridiculous and; also, your belief is laughable. How can I comprehend an illusion?

Ridiculous..?? Laughable...?? Would you laugh at the Islamic faith if you found out that Allah many times did not speak as a singular entity, but rather as a plural entity? Slow down just a bit, it seems that you haven't checked out the facts and there's no need to sound derisive.

Some Thoughts on the Trinity.

One difficulty in the Christian faith that some Moslems object to is the doctrine of the Trinity - the belief that there are three divine Persons in the Godhead: the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit. How could there be only one God if there are three in One, many people wonder. I admit the difficulty indeed, and amicably ask that we consider if Christianity is at all the only faith that stands accused of worshipping God as having revealed Himself in plurality.

When I read the Qur'an and come to texts expressed in the third person plural voice (that is, "We", "Us", etc.) I'm convinced that the Moslem God was speaking as a plurality. Check out the follwing:

Firstly, the Qur'an states that there is no god besides Allah and that he alone is God. [Sura 21.25]. I take this as a monotheistic confession of the existence of only one being recognized as God in the Islamic faith. I'm not seeking to get into anyone's bad books, but if the assertion above were true, who else was besides Allah and acting alongside him in matters which were supposed to be handled only by God? (Please note the emboldened plural pronouns "We", "Us", etc.).

1. Creation: who created the heavens and the earth - one Allah alone or several deities along with him?

[21.30] Do not those who disbelieve see that the heavens and the earth were closed up, but We have opened them; and We have made of water everything living, will they not then believe?
[51.47] And the heaven, We raised it high with power, and most surely We are the makers of things
ample.
[51.48] And the earth, We have made it a wide extent; how well have We then spread (it) out.
[51.49] And of everything We have created pairs that you may be mindful.


2. Praise: How many are to be praised - one Allah or several besides him?

[21.79] So We made Sulaiman to understand it; and to each one We gave wisdom and knowledge; and We made the mountains, and the birds to celebrate Our praise with Dawood; and We were the doers.


3. Prayers: Who answers prayers - Allah alone or several besides him?

[21.76] And Nuh, when he cried aforetime, so We answered him, and delivered him and his followers from the great calamity.

4. Divine Service: How many are to be served - one Allah or several besides him?

[21.73] And We made them Imams who guided (people) by Our command, and We revealed to them the doing of good and the keeping up of prayer and the giving of the alms, and Us (alone) did they serve;

The point is that these and several other texts in the Qur'an show clearly that Allah was speaking in a plural voice as though there were more than a singular entity - it doesn't take much to see that a plurality speaks in the Qur'an as if they were divine beings themselves, acting in the same capacity as Allah, and I trust that most Moslems are sincere enough to admit this.

So, if it is difficult to reconcile the plural personalities of Allah in Islam with the monotheistic claims they make, why should anyone want to laugh at the confession of the Trinity in Christianity? Christians who know their God are not ashamed of confessing the Trinity - I certainly am not! If anyone does not understand the Trinity, that in itself is not ridiculous or laughable...until those who laugh will do so at the Qur'an where Allah speaks as "WE", "US" and "OUR"!

M.

AIF's question:.

"Allah - I mean the unseen being Muslims worship
God - I mean the unseen being Christians worship
Are they the same?"

Allah whom Muslims worship is not the same as the God of the Christian faith. It is true that Arabic Christians and people of some other languages call God by the name Allah; but none of these Christians would be ascribing worship to the prophet Muhammed's deity. Why?

They do not hold to the same confession of their identity:

Christianity confesses faith in God as the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ:

(Mat 3:17) And lo a voice from heaven, saying, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.

(1Pe 1:3) Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead.


Islam denies that Allah has a son but sees Jesus only as a prophet or apostle:

[Sura 21.26] And they say: The Beneficent God has taken to Himself a son. Glory be to Him. Nay! they are honored servants.
[Sura 4.171] O followers of the Book! do not exceed the limits in your religion, and do not speak (lies) against Allah, but (speak) the truth; the Messiah, Isa son of Marium is only an apostle of Allah and His Word which He communicated to Marium and a spirit from Him; believe therefore in Allah and His apostles, and say not, Three. Desist, it is better for you; Allah is only one God; far be It from His glory that He should have a son, whatever is in the heavens and whatever is in the earth is His, and Allah is sufficient for a Protector.

How then are they the same God? I know they are not the same - and most muslims will tell you that Allah is not the same as the Christian God. Arabic-speaking Muslims and Christians use "Allah" to speak of the God that they believe in; however, that there is a common name for "God" does not mean that they are worshipping the same God. In the same vein, Olodumare, and the respected deities of other groups cannot be the same God - do they confess the same "Son" Jesus Christ?

Warmly,
M

When I read the Qur'an and come to texts expressed in the third person plural voice (that is, "We", "Us", etc.)...

Aarrgghh...!! What was I thinking?! That was supposed to read "first person plural."
The error is regretted.


M.