Workch:
What relevance?

You think I care about someone who doesn’t know basic laws of motion?

You wish

You remind me of a schoolmate who always looks for "big grammar" from the dictionary to speak but because of his lack of comprehension be breaks every rule of english grammar in the name of sounding sophisticated and thus is always VERBOSE, VAGUE and OUT OF CONTEXT.

It is amazing when someone who claims to know does not recognise when Causality is being discussed.
Please always try to comprehend what you have read before coming online to spew trash!

TenQ:

You remind me of a schoolmate who always looks for "big grammar" from the dictionary to speak but because of his lack of comprehension be breaks every rule of english grammar in the name of sounding sophisticated and thus is always VERBOSE, VAGUE and OUT OF CONTEXT.

It is amazing when someone who claims to know does not recognise when Causality is being discussed.
Please always try to comprehend what you have read before coming online to spew trash!

You can’t comprehend that the universe can exist from nothing because you don’t know physics.
In physics that is possible. We have seen particles existing from nothing in the quantum world.
So that law of casualty you want to explain doesn’t apply in every instances. Things can exist without a cause. Quantum physics has that idea.

You need a total overhauling in your ideas, start with basic science

Workch:
You can’t comprehend that the universe can exist from nothing because you don’t know physics.
In physics that is possible. We have seen particles existing from nothing in the quantum world.
So that law of casualty you want to explain doesn’t apply in every instances. Things can exist without a cause. Quantum physics has that idea.

You need a total overhauling in your ideas, start with basic science

Existing without a cause doesn't mean coming from nothing since nothing cannot really exist


It means having no beginning

Crystyano:



Existing without a cause doesn't mean coming from nothing since nothing cannot really exist


It means having no beginning

If nothing cannot really exist, it means that the universe wasn’t created hence it has always existed.

However what I mean by nothing, in physics, there’s a definition for nothing, which means absence of particles or antiparticles, matter or radiation, identifiable quanta of any type in your Universe, all you'd have left is the void of empty space itself.

We have seen something pop out of that definition of nothing.

Workch:
If nothing cannot really exist, it means that the universe wasn’t created hence it has always existed.

However what I mean by nothing, in physics, there’s a definition for nothing, which means absence of particles or antiparticles, matter or radiation, identifiable quanta of any type in your Universe, all you'd have left is the void of empty space itself.

We have seen something pop out of that definition of nothing.

If nothing cannot really exist,
It means the universe once existed as something else before... that's because no combination/arrangement of objects with a specific size remains forever... it's only the objects that combine that always exist... the universe can only exist as a combination of several objects...


You cannot have identifiable objects except by chance because you can't identify anything except by chance because you can't be exposed to something you can identify except by chance...

So,there are always objects/combinations of objects but you can't identify anything except by chance.... this doesn't mean that there's nothing...


The universe cannot be void ... no specific thing can actually be a container of no specific thing...In other words , anything that exists is either a specific object with a specific size or a combination of several specific objects or a property of a specific object or a property of a combination of several objects...


If you can't identify anything at a particular point ,it doesn't mean nothing is there,it means there's something you're YET TO IDENTIFY...

Crystyano:


If nothing cannot really exist,
It means the universe once existed as something else before... that's because no combination/arrangement of objects with a specific size remains forever... it's only the objects that combine that always exist... the universe can only exist as a combination of several objects...


You cannot have identifiable objects except by chance because you can't identify anything except by chance because you can't be exposed to something you can identify except by chance...

So,there are always objects/combinations of objects but you can't identify anything except by chance.... this doesn't mean that there's nothing...


The universe cannot be void ... no specific thing can actually be a container of no specific thing...In other words , anything that exists is either a specific object with a specific size or a combination of several specific objects or a property of a specific object or a property of a combination of several objects...


If you can't identify anything at a particular point ,it doesn't mean nothing is there,it means there's something you're YET TO IDENTIFY...

If you can't identify anything at any point as well, you can't conclude that something is there.
It's a classical example of appealing to ignorance.

Workch:
If you can't identify anything at any point as well, you can't conclude that something is there.
It's a classical example of appealing to ignorance.

If you can't identify because you are partially blind or because you have limits,
Does it mean nothing is there?

Workch:
You can’t comprehend that the universe can exist from nothing because you don’t know physics.
In physics that is possible. We have seen particles existing from nothing in the quantum world.
So that law of casualty you want to explain doesn’t apply in every instances. Things can exist without a cause. Quantum physics has that idea.

You need a total overhauling in your ideas, start with basic science

It takes an astronomical amount of FAITH to know that the universe can exist from nothing (except if the definition of nothing has changed).
Unfortunately, I don't have that kind of superhuman Faith.

Nature abhors a vacuum: whenever anyone reject God, he has to replace Him with Something/Someone else!

One day both our faiths will be tested!

TenQ:

It takes an astronomical amount of FAITH to know that the universe can exist from nothing (except if the definition of nothing has changed).
Unfortunately, I don't have that kind of superhuman Faith.

Nature abhors a vacuum: whenever anyone reject God, he has to replace Him with Something/Someone else.


One day both our faiths will be tested!

It takes an astronomical amount of evidence in quantum physics to know that stuffs can exist from nothing including the first ever particle.

Evidence will always replace god. God doesn’t like evidence. Wherever you find evidence, god runs away

Workch:
It takes an astronomical amount of evidence in quantum physics to know that stuffs can exist from nothing including the first ever particle.

Evidence will always replace god. God doesn’t like evidence. Wherever you find evidence, god runs away

I perfectly agree with you: It will take an astronomical amount of evidence in quantum physics to know that stuffs can exist from nothing.
Unfortunately, there is not one single evidence yet.
Or knowing that I am prone to not understanding advanced level physics, are their evidence of something coming out of nothing probably from the Large Hadron collider experiment?

Until you find your evidence, you have a god "the god of information" and your faith is in it.

Workch:
It takes an astronomical amount of evidence in quantum physics to know that stuffs can exist from nothing including the first ever particle.

Evidence will always replace god. God doesn’t like evidence. Wherever you find evidence, god runs away

Stop repeating crap!!!

That you have limits towards your inability to identify something doesn't mean there's nothing....

Crystyano:




Stop repeating crap!!!

That you have limits towards your inability to identify something doesn't mean there's nothing....

Its crap to also think it’s there because you don’t know.

It’s a fallacy of appealing to ignorance

TenQ:

I perfectly agree with you: It will take an astronomical amount of evidence in quantum physics to know that stuffs can exist from nothing.
Unfortunately, there is not one single evidence yet.
Or knowing that I am prone to not understanding advanced level physics, are their evidence of something coming out of nothing probably from the Large Hadron collider experiment?

Until you find your evidence, you have a god "the god of information" and your faith is in it.

Sorry, there’s evidence that stuffs exist out of nothing in quantum physics.

I’m not responsible for your ignorance about it

TenQ:

A Will is not an organ of the body. My Will is my RESPONSE or DECISION to external events it is not an object or item that can be caused into existence. The Will is an ATTRIBUTE/CHARACTERISTIC of a living BEING

The WILL is demonstrated in my choices to LOVE, HATE, GIVE, WITHHOLD, TRAVEL, HOLDON, RESPOND, CHEAT, HELP, etc

So your will is caused by your being which you obviously didn't will into existence. So another way to put the question will be how do you know your will is not being affected by the chain of events that led to your existence?

tatatar:

Wether it's under something else control or not,I do things because I want to. I AM FREE.
You won't argue before a judge to absolve you of a crime because,well... It's all just cause and effect. Would you

I am a compatibilist so no I won't argue that before a judge but this discussion is how you justify your concept of free will against the backdrop of a universe you seem to believe (if you are a theist who believes so) is based on a series of cause and effects which is practically determinism in another language. So another way to put the question will be how do you know your will is not being affected by the chain of events that led to your existence?

Workch:
Its crap to also think it’s there because you don’t know.

It’s a fallacy of appealing to ignorance

There's no limit to what exists

Workch:
Sorry, there’s evidence that stuffs exist out of nothing in quantum physics.

I’m not responsible for your ignorance about it

The definition of nothing in quantum physics doesn't show how no thing can exist...

Crystyano:



The definition of nothing in quantum physics doesn't show how no thing can exist...

So whats your own definition for nothing?

Crystyano:



There's no limit to what exists

who said there's a limit?

LordReed:
This question is for the theists who say everything has a cause and also believe they have free will. Can you explain how everything having a cause does not lead to determinism, a situation where everything is already determined by what came before it. As opposed to your belief that we have freewill. How can we have freewill if whatever we do had a cause and that cause also had a cause which also had a cause and so on?

What precipitated this question, Reed?

I have gone through the current four pages of this thread and I observed something is kinda missing.

Reed, give some instances of what you have in mind bordering on the premise of your op.

LordReed:


So another way to put the question will be how do you know your will is not being affected by the chain of events that led to your existence?

A good question. I suspect this was your aim all along. Am I correct?

Workch:


We have seen particles existing from nothing in the quantum world.

Could you throw more light on the assertion above. Also, be kind enough to give examples.

orisa37:
LET THERE BE LIGHT FOR GOOD. LET US HAVE HUMANS TO SHINE GOOD LIGHTS AND LIVE TO SHOW THE GOODNESS OF GOD RIGHTEOUSLY. AND HE ESTABLISHED DOUBLE CHECK WITH TEN COMMANDMENTS TO CONTROL DETERMINISM.

HE ALSO SAYS THAT HE ALONE IS A JEALOUS SUPREME SPIRIT KNOWING WELL THAT JEALOUSY, COVETOUSNESS, DEAFNESS, DUMBNESS, GREED, DISOBEDIENCE ETCETERA ETCETERA ARE REASONS FOR THE DELUGE.


IN OTHER WORDS THE CONTROL OF DETERMINISM AND FREEWILL IS THE TEN COMMANDMENTS, THE WORD OF GOD GENERALLY AND JESUS CHRIST, THE RIGHTEOUS.

FROM ORUNTO27.

Good assertion. However, it appears Reed has a different thing in mind entirely.

Workch:
Sorry, there’s evidence that stuffs exist out of nothing in quantum physics.

I’m not responsible for your ignorance about it

In order words, since you insist that "your scientists" have been able to create matter out of nothing.:
Can you please explain (or point me to the source) how your eminent scientists did the creation?

I believe you know understand how you have replace the God of Creation with the "god of information"!? Nature truely abhor a vacuum!

elated177:


A good question. I suspect this was your aim all along. Am I correct?

That is the summary of the OP.

elated177:



What precipitated this question, Reed?

I have gone through the current four pages of this thread and I observed something is kinda missing.

Reed, give some instances of what you have in mind bordering on the premise of your op.

You probably have particular foods you like eating and when faced with a choice would more likely pick them over other foods. To you you are freely making that choice however my question is asking, if your ability to choose is part of a causal chain you had no hand in bringing about how do you know you are freely choosing those foods? How do you know that your predilection for those foods is not a result of the causal chain? How do you know that your choice at any given moment was not influenced by the causal chain of events that brought about the situation in which you find yourself having to make a choice?

As for what precipitated the question, I guess I can say it's a question I have been trying to find a way of presenting but didn't have the words till I heard someone ask a similar question.

elated177:


Could you throw more light on the assertion above. Also, be kind enough to give examples.

In quantum physics, it has been observed that photons can be created from a total vacuum, where we have nothing.
This is even a potential research area that will applied to quantum computation.

This is possible because of the uncertainty principle which say the location and the speed of subatomic particles cannot be certainly measured accurately at the same time. The uncertainty makes it possible for particles to exist in two forms at the same time reality and also virtually (like a mirage). They can exist in reality elsewhere and exist inside a vacuum as virtual particles, but they won’t weight anything, you can invoke virtual particles in a vacuum to become real particles that will have mass because of this.

TenQ:

In order words, since you insist that "your scientists" have been able to create matter out of nothing.:
Can you please explain (or point me to the source) how your eminent scientists did the creation?

I believe you know understand how you have replace the God of Creation with the "god of information"!? Nature truely abhor a vacuum!

Not my scientist.
I’m also a scientist dude. Though not in physics but this is basic quantum physics.
Something can come from nothing in the quantum world.
In the quantum world, subatomic particles appear and disappear like its magic but we know why they do so, although we still don’t know a lot about some crazy scenarios there.

You need to start doing some proper research dude

LordReed:


So your will is caused by your being which you obviously didn't will into existence. So another way to put the question will be how do you know your will is not being affected by the chain of events that led to your existence?

Because I have the power to react based on my judgement within the constraints available.

Like, if you slap me, I could retaliate or choose not to retaliate. The constraints available may include whether the person who slapped me is my Father, a Military Officer, an Armed Thug, a Mad Man, My Wife etc

Since my Will cannot cause someone else to slap me, my response is completely passive UNTIL the slap is activated. Even then, if a Military Officer is alone and he ventures to slap me, my response could be different.


In summary:

To the question : So another way to put the question will be how do you know your will is not being affected by the chain of events that led to your existence?

The expression of my Will depend on my Knowledge, Emotion and Intuition all which I ACQUIRED as I grew up in life. For instance, my knowledge as a Christian may prevent me from retaliating a slap even when every logical reasoning says I should retaliate.

It's still my CHOICE except you want to agree that every knowledge a man has has been preprogrammed to happen

TenQ:

Because I have the power to react based on my judgement within the constraints available.

Like, if you slap me, I could retaliate or choose not to retaliate. The constraints available may include whether the person who slapped me is my Father, a Military Officer, an Armed Thug, a Mad Man, My Wife etc

Since my Will cannot cause someone else to slap me, my response is completely passive UNTIL the slap is activated. Even then, if a Military Officer is alone and he ventures to slap me, my response could be different.


In summary:

The expression of my Will depend on my Knowledge, Emotion and Intuition all which I ACQUIRED as I grew up in life. For instance, my knowledge as a Christian may prevent me from retaliating a slap even when every logical reasoning says I should retaliate.

It's still my CHOICE except you want to agree that every knowledge a man has has been preprogrammed to happen

The question is how do you know?

Workch:
Not my scientist.
I’m also a scientist dude. Though not in physics but this is basic quantum physics.
Something can come from nothing in the quantum world.
In the quantum world, subatomic particles appear and disappear like its magic but we know why they do so, although we still don’t know a lot about some crazy scenarios there.

You need to start doing some proper research dude

Is energy also part of NOTHING?

You have only made half of the statement: The second part is:
When subatomic particles disappear, they don't vanish in space because they merely appear somewhere else.

If they appear and disappear as you have said, then the law of conservation of energy is violated.

Is the law of conservation of energy also archaic?

Light, Goodness and Life are PRIVILEGES freely determined for Humans by The Supreme Spirit.

Faith, Hope, Peace and Love are Bureaucratic Control mechanism for their SUCCESS.