It's about freedom to do everything you want except setting standards for your fellow man, only the Creator has the wisdom to do that! Genesis 3:1-3
If we all agree to make the research to know the standard God set for us to cohabit peacefully then there will be no cause for evil thoughts!

TenQ:

Some people feel that all the laws of physics can be summarized as one single statement and they begin to throw tantrums when a law of physics is not condensed to representing every law in one single phrase.

SInce you are an expert in Physics, please present a unified law of physics in one phrase rather than being so vague to demand a merger of Newtonian physics, quantum physics, nuclear physics etc in one single statement

You obviously don't understand what you posted.

It's completely unrelated to my comment about your poor knowledge of Physics.

I don't know where you got the idea that my post suggests you can condense all the laws of physics in a unified form as just a phrase.

Even Maxwell's equations (below) that unified electricity and magnetism did so with four equations.

The Einstein field equation (below) comprises 16 equations when all the tensors are considered.

How then do you think I meant all these can be unified with quantum mechanics and gravity using a single phrase?

Physics is some form of supernatural abracadabra stuff?

If you actually know that it's beyond the experimental capabilities of the currently available labs on Earth to merge all the fundamental forces of nature to together to form a unified law or a theory of everything, you wouldn't have made that post.

To gain a deeper understanding of nature, it's better you study Quantum Physics, Relativity. Your knowledge of Physics is at the level of secondary school students.

Your worldview is Newtonian and is anachronistic. Nature isn't really as simple as you paint it.

A001:

You obviously don't understand what you posted.

It's completely unrelated to my comment about your poor knowledge of Physics.

I don't know where you got the idea that my post suggests you can condense all the laws of physics in a unified form as just a phrase.

Even Maxwell's equations (below) that unified electricity and magnetism did so with four equations.

The Einstein field equation (below) comprises 16 equations when all the tensors are considered.

How then do you think I meant all these can be unified with quantum mechanics and gravity using a single phrase?

Physics is some form of supernatural abracadabra stuff?

If you actually know that it's beyond the experimental capabilities of the currently available labs on Earth to merge all the fundamental forces of nature to together to form a unified law or a theory of everything, you wouldn't have made that post.

To gain a deeper understanding of nature, it's better you study Quantum Physics, Relativity. Your knowledge of Physics is at the level of secondary school students.

Your worldview is Newtonian and is anachronistic. Nature isn't really as simple as you paint it.

Just see how you make so much sense!
SMH!!

Workch:
There is nothing like unified law of physics yet.
Just stop using the archaic Newtonian laws to make whatever point you want to make, that law is myopic and only works on earth. It breaks down in most parts of space. Take the correction and move on.

I don’t know who’s asking you about unified law of physics here.

If you cannot present a unified theory of physics in a phrase or sentence, please keep your mouth shut as you are confused!

TenQ:

If you cannot present a unified theory of physics in a phrase or sentence, please keep your mouth shut as you are confused!

Whatever, 3 people already corrected you on this thread.
Just stop talking about science, you are illiterate

A001:
We don't know it as a fact that everything has a cause, and free will is an illusion.

We do know everything elsewhere and beyond the earth but on earth, it is proven beyond reasonable doubt that everything on the earth has a Cause.

Dtruthspeaker:


We do know everything elsewhere and beyond the earth but on earth, it is proven beyond reasonable doubt that everything on the earth has a Cause.

Says who? Where's your proof?

Workch:
I hope you are not hoping to get answers with reason from any theist here?

Theism lack reasoning by default, so expect them to shift the goal post forever

I do hope, this discussion requires no emotional appeals.

It's always funny to me when people claim god is omniscient but also say I'm going to hell for sinning, so god creating me solely for the purpose of sending me to hell?

TenQ:

A wise person will not only shout "two legs bad, four legs good" but will present the UNIFIED laws in one single phrase and the case would be settled.

BTW: Dtruthspeaker is a physicist I should have spoken to him with all the required supporting EQUATIONS and theorems
SMH!

Dtruthspeaker is a professor, a lawyer, a chemist and now a physicist. LMFAO!

LordReed:


Dtruthspeaker is a professor, a lawyer, a chemist and now a physicist. LMFAO!

Jack of all trades, master of none

TenQ:

No one caused your will: you did.

Check the definition again
Freewill:
A man's Freedom to exercise his power to choose his cause of action within available options and its associated external constraints.
If your definition of freewill is different from this, then you use a wrong yardstick to judge what you probably do not understand.

Any WILL that is CAUSED by someone else is never FREE
Something cannot cause someones will because something is NOT ALIVE

Guns don't kill people, People do!

Your will was not caused by you since you didn't cause yourself.

TenQ:

Your consciousness is YOURS!
It's a gift that make you independent even of your maker should you choose

Your consciousness was not caused by you.

A001:

Jack of all trades, master of none

A001:

Says who? Where's your proof?

Can you name one thing in this world which TRULY made and created itself?

Just one!

Workch:
I hope you are not hoping to get answers with reason from any theist here?

Theism lack reasoning by default, so expect them to shift the goal post forever

You should be listening, get a pen and be taking notes from the person you just quoted. I hope you see his intelligent question. Not the one will be asking that a snake is talking or animal going into ark. That is for the children.


So, take a side seat talk less and start learning.

hupernikao:


You should be listening, get a pen and be taking notes from the person you just quoted. I hope you see his intelligent question. Not the one will be asking that a snake is talking or animal going into ark. That is for the children.


So, take a side seat talk less and start learning.

I am with a pen ready to take down all the possible fallacies you about to commit.

I will spot them at every point

Dtruthspeaker:


Can you name one thing in this world which TRULY made and created itself?

Just one!

There are a number of such: entangled spins, the rest masses of unstable particles, the position of a particle that’s passed through a double slit, and so on.

Check this thread: https://www.nairaland.com/6690123/all-science-key-facts-researches/1#107300391

MaxInDHouse:
It's about freedom to do everything you want except setting standards for your fellow man, only the Creator has the wisdom to do that! Genesis 3:1-3
If we all agree to make the research to know the standard God set for us to cohabit peacefully then there will be no cause for evil thoughts!

So basically you don't think we have free will?

A001:

There are a number of such: entangled spins, the rest masses of unstable particles, the position of a particle that’s passed through a double slit, and so on.

Check this thread: https://www.nairaland.com/6690123/all-science-key-facts-researches/1#107300391

You are not giving ANY THING that everyone Sees and Knows, simple everyday things like sand, animals, birds, balls etc.action movies gibberish do not count.

Give us any natural thing or is it TRULY impossible for you to find one, as I said?

LordReed:
This question is for the theists who say everything has a cause and also believe they have free will. Can you explain how everything having a cause does not lead to determinism, a situation where everything is already determined by what came before it. As opposed to your belief that we have freewill. How can we have freewill if whatever we do had a cause and that cause also had a cause which also had a cause and so on?

You asked a very thought provoking question. But as you referred to theists, i will limit my discussion to Christian Theology (The Bible).

My response may be a bit long, but i will appreciate, you take time to go through it for proper discussion flow.

---

GOD SOVEREIGNITY, CAUSES AND FREEWILL:
DOES GOD'S SOVEREIGNTY MEANS HE CAN DECIDE EVERYTHING AS HE LIKES?

Firstly, it is a poor theology to believe this, because we have seen through the history, man stopping the hand of God, disobeying God and doing not his will.


So, What is God's Sovereignty

Sovereignty of God is one of the most misinterpreted concept about God. Most used the knowledge carried from secular world about a God who can just wake up and do whatever he likes without thinking twice or no restriction. The truth is the Bible never presented such God.

The word sovereign as a text does not exist in any text of the Bible. The usage of Sovereignty usually implies someone who is independent of control. It can be used in a bad light with respect to dictators, tyrants. The issue with the word is that such person cannot be controlled. The word can be used for individuals, institutions and nations. This is the current world notion.

But in Christian Theology, until you put the bible thoughts together about God, that is, read everything together to form an opinion, this concept will never be understood.



SOVEREIGNTY OF GOD MUST FULFILL WITHIN THE LIMIT OF HIS OTHER ATTRIBUTES

Think of this: Can a God who act in such sovereignty as described in my first paragraph still be referred to as

- a Just
- a Loving
- a Faithful
- a Righteous God?

Of cause no. But the bible, showed you that God is Just, Loving, Faithful and Righteous God. These are well documented and loud in all the texts of the scriptures. Hence you cant teach God's sovereignty outside these attributes.

For example:
Faithfulness means to "remaining loyal and steadfast", unchanging irrespective of events. That means, God's sovereignty must be within the confide of his faithfulness. He does change.
So, we must look at God's actions of causes and effects, sovereignty, with the eye of his being JUST, RIGHTEOUS, FAITHFUL, AND LOVING.

This is what the Bible presented to us as God, hence we must read all events in the Bible to find this attributes in God put together and present interpretation of this in all events a deviation from this is what leads to seeing inconsistencies in the bible.

---

DOES GOD CAUSES ALL OR PREDETERMINES ALLTHINGS?

Secondly, the issue of Cause all things, or Pre-determine things.

We must observed that the scriptures written in ancient language, will use words in their days. Hence we must use the meaning of words as used in their days not as ours,

For example, the usage of pre-determination (proorizo) in bible days was never meant as finality, a conclusion. It was used as a plan.

In classical Greek, even the secular writer never used it to mean to determine an outcome. Hippocrates (460-370 BC), Greek physician, used the word (proorizo) to describe an intended result following the administration of medication. Which shows that, even when medicine is applied, the medication cannot always determine the final outcome.


Now, Did God Pre-Determine All Things?
That is, a finality and conclusion? No, it wasnt taught in the Bible. Bible language in itself is full of man's choices. A very central activities in the Bible.

This implies that

1. God doesnt cause all things
2. God will work within the choices of cause to achieve his own plan too

---

WHAT THEN IS FREE WILL

I am sure, the modern day reader are likely to see the world FREE and take it to mean "doing anything you like. Even some dictionary gives such notion of expression.

Oxford Dictionary gives these meaning for freewill.
- the power of acting without the constraint of necessity or fate;
- the ability to act at one's own discretion.

You and I know that the first was never even in man's practice. It doesnt occur anywhere in the world. Every actions has a consequence or outcome.

The second meaning is what FREEWILL does means. to acts on one's own discretion, hence, you decide your outcome.

---

HOW IS FREEWILL PRACTICES AMONG MEN.
Since men wrote the scriptures, men's language are used, so let us observe how freewill is used among men.
Observe close words and their practices below.

1. Freedom of Speech: We all know even the best of freedom of speech doesnt exonerate the speaker from being responsible for what he says.

2. Freedom of Information: You are still responsible for the information you feed on or you use.

3. Freedom of Expressions. You are absolutely responsible for the outcome of your free expression.

That means, being FREE was never to mean outside consequence. Why then do we want to interpret freewill in the scriptures as without consequence?

Hence, a presentation of freewill doctrine outside the consequence of the decision is a false one.


So, does man has a will to choose

Adam (humanity) can exercise free will without God's interference.
Gen 2:20
20 And Adam gave names to all cattle, and to the fowl of the air, and to every beast of the field; but for Adam there was not found an help meet for him.

When you see words like

If thou, Choose, commanded etc, they already showed you that man has a choice to do or not do.

---

CAN WE HAVE FREEWILL OUTSIDE THE CONSEQUENCES OF OUR DECISION?

Most claim that if you can be punished for your action, them its not freewill. The problem is, they have been informed wrongly on what freewill means.

Freewill doesnt mean just doing everything you like irrespective of how it affect you or your neighbor of environment.

Hence, freewill must be understood within the domain of its consequence. Even an atheist who wants man to have decisions outside "no God", is still preaching freewill within a limit of his environment. That limits how much you call free, and place a burden of the consequence of your actions on you.

---

In Conclusion
Man's greatest instrument is his freewill. This is seen and defined in God's sovereignty: just and loving. A just God, wont impose his own will on man, That is love. Therefore man's actions are the cause of his life or another man's life. he determines how he wants to exercise his will. Yet that will's freedom must be within the limit of others and his environment. Being Just mean, to be able to ensure than each bear the consequences of its action even in his own very freewill.

Dtruthspeaker:


You are not giving ANY THING that everyone Sees and Knows, simple everyday things like sand, animals, birds, balls etc.action movies gibberish do not count.

Give us any natural thing or is it TRULY impossible for you to find one, as I said?

Some of them are natural things that can be observed with the right tools. The fact that you're not opportune to see them doesn't mean that several scientists in CERN, for instance, don't see lots of such things regularly.

Then, those quantum objects are found as components of the natural, everyday things you listed above and in many natural, biological, and physical processes.

LordReed:


Your consciousness was not caused by you.

Consciousness is the ABILITY to
1. Feel your environment
2. Like or Dislike what you have felt
3. Take appropriate action to minimize or maximise the experience of your feeling within the limit of the external constraints available

YOU are the one who Feel
YOU are the one who Like or Dislike your Feeling
YOU are the one who chose your appropriate action

The ABILITY to be LIVING was given to YOU

LordReed:


Your will was not caused by you since you didn't cause yourself.

Sorry, I don't know if you are deliberately feigning ignorance of the definition of Freewill or not

Did anyone compel you you reply this post?
If yes, then your will was caused by that person.

Was it done by force or duress?

If not, then your will was yours only to make!

LordReed:


Dtruthspeaker is a professor, a lawyer, a chemist and now a physicist. LMFAO!

Some of your friends feel that I should speak in scientific language to him as they assume he is a professor of Physics

Workch:
Whatever, 3 people already corrected you on this thread.
Just stop talking about science, you are illiterate

You can see that their foolishness has shut them up.
Birds of the same feather....

Your type:
Feigning knowledge yet so ignorant: the kind of knowledge that makes a full grown man to be confused about his gender.
Yet, truly knowledgeable people don't ever make the mistake of getting a cockerel to lay eggs!
SMH!!

TenQ:

Sorry, I don't know if you are deliberately feigning ignorance of the definition of Freewill or not

Did anyone compel you you reply this post?
If yes, then your will was caused by that person.

Was it done by force or duress?

If not, then your will was yours only to make!

What is the definition of freewill?

LordReed:


What is the definition of freewill?

I have quoted it several times within this post
Here it is again

TenQ:

No one caused your will: you did.

Check the definition again
Freewill:
A man's Freedom to exercise his power to choose his cause of action within available options and its associated external constraints.
If your definition of freewill is different from this, then you use a wrong yardstick to judge what you probably do not understand.

Any WILL that is CAUSED by someone else is never FREE
Something cannot cause someones will because something is NOT ALIVE

Guns don't kill people, People do!

TenQ:

You can see that their foolishness has shut them up.
Birds of the same feather....

Your type:
Feigning knowledge yet so ignorant: the kind of knowledge that makes a full grown man to be confused about his gender.
Yet, truly knowledgeable people don't ever make the mistake of getting a cockerel to lay eggs!
SMH!!

I don’t know much, it’s impossible to know all. But it’s good to always want to accept corrections.
You lack that quality. You are ignorant and incorrigible.
That’s a disease dude

Workch:
I don’t know much, it’s impossible to know all. But it’s good to always want to accept corrections.
You lack that quality. You are ignorant and incorrigible.
That’s a disease dude

I love how you have simply described yourself!

A001:

Some of them are natural things that can be observed with the right tools.

State the natural things, let me go outside and examine them. That's the beauty of Nature, it puts things beyond debate.

Men, women Scientists Lie and are capable of lying BUT NOT NATURE. so please state the natural things, if you have any.

Dtruthspeaker:


State the natural things, let me go outside and examine them. That's the beauty of Nature, it puts things beyond debate.

Men, women Scientists Lie and are capable of lying BUT NOT NATURE. so please state the natural things, if you have any.

Can you observe all things in nature with the naked eye?

Can you see microbes, viruses, crystalline structures of some atoms, and tons of others with your naked eyes? Or aren't all this natural things?

You're nothing but a scientific illiterate.