Wizardofoz:

You are so daft! Was Modakeke ever a kingdom?

#Dead

tpia@:

wrong.

Just saying it is wrong does not make it wrong. You have to offer an explanation. That is the purpose of debate.

^^most of the kingdoms werent unoccupied land.

Appoint a thief to such a sensitive post in Yorubaland? God Forbid

If you say you want anybody to confer on Tinubu the Asiwaju of ACN,that is left to the politicians but the Asiiwaju of yoruba, God forbid!! I know Tinubu will begin to reap what he sowed very soon when jonathan comes back from his trip,

marvel4ben:

If you say you want anybody to confer on Tinubu the Asiwaju of ACN,that is left to the politicians but the Asiiwaju of yoruba, God forbid!! I know Tinubu will begin to reap what he sowed very soon when jonathan comes back from his trip,

That made me laugh.

Donlittle:

men, i love history, i love naija
i love nairaland?
from tinubu, it diverted to history
anyways, thanks peeps, am seriously learning here, ese o
God bless una
and i think yoruba, has some popular history sa

Omo Ibadan kini so re

tpia@:

modakeke?

Can you check your history book to see when Modakeke settled in Ife?

Modakeke people took refuge in Ife in the wake of the seige laid on Oyo by other Yoruba Kingdoms (can't remember which war precisely). They were originally Oyo people and they appeared in Ife as recent as the mid 19th century or thereabouts.

tpia@:

wrong.

They were unoccupied lands or can you name the original/previous settlers in those places??

My own forefathers, originally from Ife, founded Sagamu, a town in Ogun State and they were the first to settle there.

Pukkah:

There is no conjecture here Katsumoto.

Oranmiyan was away on one of his numerous campaigns when Oduduwa died. Before his return his brothers had distributed the material possession of their father leaving only ‘useless’ lands. The smart Oranmiyan inherited the land and demanded rent from his brothers. He became instantly richer than his brothers. He was recorded as succeeding to the Oduduwa throne. This is the reason why he was more special than his brothers.

He left Ife leaving Ooni as guardian of the throne. He went north on an expedition purportedly to avenge the expulsion of his grandfather from his native Middle-East country. Having been discouraged by the King of Nupe on the foolhardiness of the project, he founded and settled Oyo on his southern march back to Ife and becoming, so to say, the first Alafin of Oyo. Thus he became the founder of the first real Yoruba political entity, later called Oyo Empire. He was associated with some other dynasties apart from the Benin’s, like Popo in the present day Republic of Benin.

It is not certain who inherited the throne after Oduduwa but one version of history has it that after Oranmiyan founded Oyo, he left Oyo in his old age to reclaim the throne in Ife where he finally joined his ancestors. So it is also possible among other things that Oranmiyan left the throne for his son or there were other sons of Oduduwa who inherited the throne after him. Another version of history says Ooni was actually an adopted son of Oduduwa whom he found in the middle of the night while performing his routine rituals. Oduduwa was said to have found him unfit for rituals (that is where he got the name Owo ni - meaning sacred or one to be reverred, which was later corrupted to Ooni) and then decided to take him home to nuture him and it was the same guy who inherited all his authority on the worhsip of his deities and performed his riruals till the time he - Oduduwa died. He was said to have held forth for Oranmiyan until Oranmiyan came to inherit the throne and died in Ife. Perhaps, he gained control of the throne after Oranmiyan died as he was said to be very powerful. But no one is sure. There were too many versions of that history.

@ x factoria

i'll check the history of sagamu but notwithstanding, it's erroneous to claim most of the kingdoms were empty when oduduwa's descendants settled there.

Lokoja was founded by a white european but that doesnt mean there were no people in the area before then.

During the times of the yoruba civil wars and the fulani onslaught, there was a lot of mass movement of people founding new towns afters the old ones were sacked. Many places in ekiti for example were founded this way. The settlers moved close to existing towns and set up new ones in forests previously used for hunting and the like. Abeokuta itself was also founded within a particular period, as was ibadan in 1829. Oyo has also shifted capitals more than once.

Very little evidence exists to support the claim that oduduwa's sons went to rule over empty land with the subjects consisiting of only their wives and slaves. If anyone can prove that's what happened, kindly provide the rest of us with your sourc or links.

Oduduwa himself met people in ile ife when he got there, likewise the ijebu region was already there prior to the period under discussion. Same applies to many of the principal towns in yorubaland besides places like ibadan and abeokuta which were founded due to war raids and the like.

In my own candid opinion, ASIWAJU BOLA AHMED TINUBU should not be made the ASIWAJU OF YORUBA LAND. If u think he is a colossus that performed brilliantly well in the last election,then ask him about the PRIVATISATION OF IKEJA GENERAL HOSPITAL, LAGOS.

All the departments in G.H Ikeja had been privatised by this so called TINUBU while alot of people are fronting for him just to keep him out of the picture.
please visit ikeja and u will see that the the following Government medical arms are already privatised.

the mortuary is privatised; the proceeds goes indirectly to TINUBU PURSE
the lab is lab is half-dead, cortesy of TINUBU delibrate plan to make his own private lab to work while Government lab staff were made redundant, any tests done in the Government lab is REJECTED BY THE DOCTORS
The CT SCAN centre is privatised; the price tag is about N200,000
THE MINISTRY OF HEALTH IS AWARE; SOME OF THE PROCEEDS GOES TO THEM
the Pharmacy is privetised;more than 10years back

No TTINUBU MUST EXPALIN WHY IKEHA GENERAL HOSPITAL IS IN SHAMBLES

X-factoria:

They were unoccupied lands or can you name the original/previous settlers in those places??

My own forefathers, originally from Ife, founded Sagamu, a town in Ogun State and they were the first to settle there.

Correct

X-factoria:

[b]It is not certain who inherited the throne after Oduduwa [/b]but one version of history has it that after Oranmiyan founded Oyo, he left Oyo in his old age to reclaim the throne in Ife where he finally joined his ancestors. So it is also possible among other things that Oranmiyan left the throne for his son or there were other sons of Oduduwa who inherited the throne after him. Another version of history says Ooni was actually an adopted son of Oduduwa whom he found in the middle of the night while performing his routine rituals. Oduduwa was said to have found him unfit for rituals (that is where he got the name Owo ni - meaning sacred or one to be reverred, which was later corrupted to Ooni) and then decided to take him home to nuture him and it was the same guy who inherited all his authority on the worhsip of his deities and performed his riruals till the time he - Oduduwa died. He was said to have held forth for Oranmiyan until Oranmiyan came to inherit the throne and died in Ife. Perhaps, he gained control of the throne after Oranmiyan died as he was said to be very powerful. But no one is sure. There were too many versions of that history.

No, it is certain who inherited the throne after Oduduwa. What is not certain is whether he was Oduduwa's son.

tpia@:

Oduduwa himself met people in ile ife when he got there, likewise the ijebu region was already there prior to the period under discussion. Same applies to many of the principal towns in yorubaland besides places like ibadan and abeokuta which were founded due to war raids and the like.

Yes Oduduwa met people at Ife and those people had at just 5 rulers before Oduduwa. Oduduwa was made king after the revolt against the rulers. Can you name one single Yoruba town that existed at the same time as Ife? There may have been pockets of people here and there but certainly not defined. You certainly are not suggesting that 16 of Oduduwa's sons and grandsons just wondered into defined towns and villages and made themselves kings over everyone else. The Awori people were originally from Ife and they were the first settlers in Lagos. I am not sure if they were the first settlers in Ogun.

Secondly, you assume that the 10th - 11th century, when Oduduwa lived, was just as populated as Today's Nigeria. Just to illustrate that Yorubaland in that time was sparsely populated; I will use population figures. Nigeria's population today is approximately 150 million; it was approximately 60 million in the 50s and 60s.

X-factoria:

Can you check your history book to see when Modakeke settled in Ife?

Modakeke people took refuge in Ife in the wake of the seige laid on Oyo by other Yoruba Kingdoms (can't remember which war precisely). They were originally Oyo people and they appeared in Ife as recent as the mid 19th century or thereabouts.

It was when the Fulani sacked Oyo ile in 1834-1835; Ooni Akinmoyero gave the Oyo refugees land outside Ife.

Here is my take on Tinubu.

I am not a fan of Tinubu; for a long time, I was against his person. But I have come to warm towards him for getting rid of PDP from the SW. Now that can lead to a few things. He can become a tyrant or he can provide visionary leadership. He got it right with Fashola but the jury should still be out on the remaining lawmakers and administrators. Afterall, many of them decamped from PDP.

You can't give him any title until he actually delivers good governance and development to the SW. As the ACN gains more momentum and power in the SW, its processes must be democratic. Yoruba people don't like being dictated to; if he carries on with imposing candidates on the electorate, then ACN will be kicked out by the next election.

X-factoria:

It is not certain who inherited the throne after Oduduwa but one version of history has it that after Oranmiyan founded Oyo, he left Oyo in his old age to reclaim the throne in Ife [/b]where he finally joined his ancestors. So it is also possible among other things that Oranmiyan left the throne for his son or there were other sons of Oduduwa who inherited the throne after him. Another version of history says Ooni was actually an adopted son of Oduduwa whom he found in the middle of the night while performing his routine rituals. Oduduwa was said to have found him unfit for rituals (that is where he got the name Owo ni - meaning sacred or one to be reverred, which was later corrupted to Ooni) and then decided to take him home to nuture him and it was the same guy who inherited all his authority on the worhsip of his deities and performed his riruals till the time he - Oduduwa died. [b]He was said to have held forth for Oranmiyan until Oranmiyan came to inherit the throne and died in Ife. Perhaps, he gained control of the throne after Oranmiyan died as he was said to be very powerful. But no one is sure. There were too many versions of that history.

How come Oranmiyan was the one poised to inherit the Ife throne after founding Oyo? Is this not why he was more special than his brothers? If he had not founded Oyo, where would his throne have been?

Katsumoto:

Here is my take on Tinubu.

I am not a fan of Tinubu; for a long time, I was against his person. But I have come to warm towards him for getting rid of PDP from the SW. Now that can lead to a few things. He can become a tyrant or he can provide visionary leadership. He got it right with Fashola but the jury should still be out on the remaining lawmakers and administrators. Afterall, many of them decamped from PDP.

You can't give him any title until he actually delivers good governance and development to the SW. As the ACN gains more momentum and power in the SW, its processes must be democratic. Yoruba people don't like being dictated to; if he carries on with imposing candidates on the electorate, then ACN will be kicked out by the next election.

I agree.

Pukkah:

How come Oranmiyan was the one poised to inherit the Ife throne after founding Oyo? Is this not why he was more special than his brothers? If he had not founded Oyo, where would his throne have been?

Benin

Oranmiyan's son became Oba Eweka the 1st in Benin. No one promised the Ife throne to Oranmiyan. If it was the intention of Oduduwa for Oranmiyan to become king at Ife, Oduduwa would have left the throne to him and he would not have had to go to Oyo. Does it make sense that Oranmiyan left Ife (most developed state) to go and settle in the bush at Katunga (Oyo)?

Pukkah:

I agree.

Very stoooooooopid and sheeepish of you to have agreed with something that is blatantly false.

Yoruba people are the most gullible people around. They rely more on group thinking and over reliance on one or more star powers.

Tinubu has imposed people time and again. And, time and again, his anointed proteges have won elections.

Use your brain, and stop agreeing with "conjectural" sentiments!

Wizardofoz:


Very stoooooooopid and sheeepish of you to have agreed with something that is blatantly false.

Yoruba people are the most gullible people around. They rely more on group thinking and over reliance on one or more star powers.

Tinubu has imposed people time and again. And, time and again, his anointed proteges have won elections.

Use your brain, and stop agreeing with "conjectural" sentiments!

Stranger

Take it easy now. This is the first election that Tinubu has really imposed candidates; he got away with it because people wanted to get rid of PDP in the SW and because Fashola did well in his first term. Don't be surprised if people fall behind labour if Tinubu carries on imposing. Also, I guess you weren't aware the Remi was heading for defeat until the first elections were cancelled.

Edit

Katsumoto:

It was when the Fulani sacked Oyo ile in 1834-1835; Ooni Akinmoyero gave the Oyo refugees land outside Ife.

Oh i see, thanks for shedding more light.

tpia@:

@ x factoria

i'll check the history of sagamu but notwithstanding, it's erroneous to claim most of the kingdoms were empty when oduduwa's descendants settled there.

Lokoja was founded by a white european but that doesnt mean there were no people in the area before then.

During the times of the yoruba civil wars and the fulani onslaught, there was a lot of mass movement of people founding new towns afters the old ones were sacked. Many places in ekiti for example were founded this way. The settlers moved close to existing towns and set up new ones in forests previously used for hunting and the like. Abeokuta itself was also founded within a particular period, as was ibadan in 1829. Oyo has also shifted capitals more than once.

Very little evidence exists to support the claim that oduduwa's sons went to rule over empty land with the subjects consisiting of only their wives and slaves. If anyone can prove that's what happened, kindly provide the rest of us with your sourc or links.

Please check very well. For your information, Sagamu town was founded in 188X and as at that time, that large peice of land was uninhabited. Following from this, it is possible that the migration from Ife from the 12th century i.e. at about 1180 AD upwards would have given rise to new towns situated on uninhabited land.

The most potent disapproval of this would be to mention names of original settlers of a particular place at a time the town was founded. ok? I actually know the story of a particular town that is an exception but I won't mention it to strenghten your argument because, It was an exception!

Katsumoto:

Stranger

Take it easy now. This is the first election that Tinubu is really imposed candidates; he got away with it because people wanted to get rid of PDP in the SW and because Fashola did well in his first term. Don't be surprised if people fall behind labour if Tinubu carries on imposing. Also, I guess you weren't aware the Remi was heading for defeat until the first elections were cancelled.

Abiola Ajimobi of Oyo state did not pass through ACN primaries, he was imposed. Anybody who says he passed through primaries should give the details of the date, venue, etc. In fact, the other aspirants went to court to challenge the decision (imposition) of the party.

The people simply looked the other way because of they were fed up with PDP (Akala) and just wanted a breath of fresh air. This style is not likely to work in 2015. ACN as an opposition party should be the epitome of internal democracy.

Wizardofoz:


Very stoooooooopid and sheeepish of you to have agreed with something that is blatantly false.

[s]Yoruba people are the most gullible people around.[/s] They rely more on group thinking and over reliance on one or more star powers.

Tinubu has imposed people time and again. And, time and again, his anointed proteges have won elections.

Use your brain, and stop agreeing with "conjectural" sentiments!

Alright stranger, I know you are a Yoruba man, nonetheless pls avoid using such insulting words on Yorubas or on any ethnic group. It always provokes insults and fightings.

OAM4J:

Alright stranger, I know you are a Yoruba man, nonetheless pls avoid using such insulting words on Yorubas or on any ethnic group. It always provokes insults and fightings.

Thanks for your intervention OAM4J, but there are other insulting and abusive words in the post you referred to, see them highlighted below:

Wizardofoz:


Very stoooooooopid and sheeepish of you to have agreed with something that is blatantly false.

Yoruba people are the most gullible people around. They rely more on group thinking and over reliance on one or more star powers.

Tinubu has imposed people time and again. And, time and again, his anointed proteges have won elections.

Use your brain, and stop agreeing with "conjectural" sentiments!

X factoria

in the 19th century, many new towns were founded by the yoruba , as i mentioned before.

You yourself gave the same date for sagamu so where is the contradiction here.

The reason why there was so much unpopulated land compared to the general population at the time, was due to the wholesale emptying and destruction of towns by the slave trade.

The refugees and survivors of the various wars and raids settled in new towns further south from where they were before, and closer to the coast.

The figures from the 19th century do not in any way butress the claim that oduduwa's descendants ruled over vast tracts of wilderness populated only by themselves. I would really like to see any links to this assertion. From the ife example we see there was an indigenous population there prior to oduduwa's arrival, and this population already had links and info on him or his region even before then.

Check the dates for the nok civilization which preceeded and influenced ife to some extent.

tpia@:

X factoria

in the 19th century, many new towns were founded by the yoruba , as i mentioned before.

You yourself gave the same date for sagamu so where is the contradiction here.

The reason why there was so much unpopulated land comapred to the general population at the time, was due to the wholesale emptying and destruction of towns by the slave trade.

The refugees and survivors of the various wars and raids settled in new towns further south from where they were before, and closer to the coast.

The figures from the 19th century do not in any way butress the claim that oduduwa's descendants ruled over vast tracts of wilderness populated only by themselves. I would really like to see any links to this assertion. From the ife example we see there was an indigenous population there prior to oduduwa's arrival, and this population already had links and info on him or his region even before then.

The fact that you can only mention Ife as the only Yoruba town settlement lends credence to many unhabited places in Yorubaland. You can not compare 19th century Yorubaland with 11th century Yorubaland. There is a huge difference. If yoruba people were settling in NEW towns in the 19th century, why is it so difficult to accept that Oduduwa's descendants settled in new towns in the 12th/13th/14th/15th/16th/17th centuries?

The onus is on you to prove that there were established communities in ALL 16 kingdoms founded by Oduduwa's descendants. As far as oral traditions and evidential history is concerned, Ife was the first organised town. This however, doesn't preclude the presence of people in other parts of Yorubaland. We know Ife people settled in Lagos, Ogun, Oyo, Owu, Ijesa, Ugbo (Ilaje), etc.

The "Historical exposition" of Yoruba history is quite interesting and educative. How l wish we could locate a special thread for it?
Its digressing and colliding with at least two, other interesting "ideas": The issue of "Asiwaju of Yoruba" and the issue of "Candidate Imposition" by Tinubu, in the ACN.

These are very important discussions and to keep jumping from one to the other, within the same thread, is enough to make a "real Monkey" to develop Migraine!
Yeah, l know about "multi-tasking" but l also know about "logical sorting"!

What do you guys think? Shouldn't they be separate/separated?

BTW: does it hold TRUE that:
1.)Because Ahmed Tinubu, using the ACN platform, assisted in defeating the PDP in the SouthWest (Put into context that PDP still won the Presidential elections in the same SW and Lagos in particular!), he can thus be absolved of all the "sins" leveled against him? And thus, suddenly qualify to become Asiwaju of ALL Yorubas?

2.)Using the same logic above, since OBJ assisted in "arresting" the Northern notion of political invincibility and born-to-rule mentality (no pun intended pls) within the North, does that mean he can thus be absolved of all his "sins" and thus suddenly be qualified to be ranked as Asiwaju of ALL Yorubas?

This is the crux of the matter. Lets weigh-in civilly, please.
Thanx.
Lastpage.

lastpage:

The "Historical exposition" of Yoruba history is quite interesting and educative. How l wish we could locate a special thread for it?
Its digressing and colliding with at least two, other interesting "ideas": The issue of "Asiwaju of Yoruba" and the issue of "Candidate Imposition" by Tinubu, in the ACN.

These are very important discussions and to keep jumping from one to the other, within the same thread, is enough to make a "real Monkey" to develop Migraine!
Yeah, l know about "multi-tasking" but l also know about "logical sorting"!

What do you guys think? Shouldn't they be separate/separated?

BTW: does it hold TRUE that:
1.)Because Ahmed Tinubu, using the ACN platform, assisted in defeating the PDP in the SouthWest (Put into context that PDP still won the Presidential elections in the same SW and Lagos in particular!), he can thus be absolved of all the "sins" leveled against him? And thus, suddenly qualify to become Asiwaju of ALL Yorubas?

2.)Using the same logic above, since OBJ assisted in "arresting" the Northern notion of political invincibility and born-to-rule mentality (no pun intended pls) within the North, does that mean he can thus be absolved of all his "sins" and thus suddenly be qualified to be ranked as Asiwaju of ALL Yorubas?

This is the crux of the matter. Lets weigh-in civilly, please.
Thanx.
Lastpage.

Everyone pays for their sins eventually.

Let me start with OBJ. Whatever OBJ did, he did for OBJ. He was the most selfish and useless leader the Yoruba ever had. He should go and ask for forgiveness from his maker.

As for Tinubu; to whom much is given, much is expected. Yes, he has kicked out PDP from the SW but his boys must still deliver. Winning an election is not the end. He is not yet the Asiwajus of Yoruba. If he is able to take Yorubas beyond where Awo took them, them he can be considered for that role. There is the perception that Tinubu is only in this for himself; I guess only time will tell. It is not yet uhuru.

This thread is very informative. Well done all.
I personally feel Tinubu should be made Asiwaju of Yorubaland because that will motivate him to do more for the Yorubas. I can remember that sometime in 1990, the Igbo council of traditional rulers made the then head of state-IBB ''ochi agha Ndigbo'. With this title bestowed on him, IBB responded by creating Abia, Enugu and Delta state with the capital at Asaba nine months later.
Am with those who support Tinubu on this matter based on my reason above.