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Fact About Pa Idu by samuk: 9:12pm On Nov 28, 2021
FACTS ABOUT PA IDU

1. Pa Idu was born at Ogbe N’Alaka a place that eventually became the homestead of later Ogiso’s and Oba’s of Benin.
2. Pa Idu father was known as Ere (not to be mistaken as Ogiso Ere) he was the founder of Uhunmwundumwun (premier town), a place hundreds of years later Ogiso Ere moved the palace to from Ugbekun. Pa Idu father Ere, is where the ancient word Otamere (evening tide favored Ere) was created from.
3. Pa Idu is generally accepted as the Progenitor of the Benin race and all its descendants because the chroniclers of our remembered history, Ughoron; popularize his name above other native indigenes of which Idu came out from.
4. Pa Idu had three sons: Akka, Efa and Emehi. Efa and Emehi are the fathers of the modern day Benin population,
5. Through legitimacy of ancient ownership the Efa and Emehi families are the owners of Edo land as every other families came from them.
6. Pa Idu died at Uhe(not to be mistaken as Ile-Ife) present day Igala areas of Kogi State and was referred to as Oghene N’Uhe by the earliest Benin natives, he was deified as a Priest King. The Chief priest and scepter bearer of the Oghene N’ Uhe shrine, Azama; followed Akka, Efa and Emehi back to Benin land and a replica of the shrine was built here in Benin land, the descendants of the Azama N’Uhe are the Oloton family of Benin and they are the custodian of the scepter of authority of Pa Idu carried by Azama and bequeathed to the descendants of Efa and Emehi.
7. Earliest Portuguese referred to Oghene N’Uhe(Pa Idu) as “Ogane” the great potentate of the interior.
8. All Ogisos starting from Ere to Oba Ewuare I all went on pilgrimage visit to pay respect to their progenitor at Uhe, a sort of confirmation and spiritual renewal ritual. A ritual also conducted by Ikaladerhan before he became a ruler in Ile-Ife.
9. When the later Oba’s of Benin discovered the complexity of the pilgrimage visit and the decline of the Uhe town they created “Erinmwidu” a replica of Oghene N’ Uhe Shrine and made it Royalty. Hence Erinmwidu is the royal deity of the Benin people.
10. Idusere, Idusogie, Idugbowa etc. reaffirm the Benin native ownership of Idu ideology hence Idu is Benin, Benin is Idu.

Let the legacies of Pa Idu be remembered by us all his children.
Pa Idu gha to kpere. Ise
Oba gha to kpere. Ise

Written by
Imasuen Amowie Izoduwa

1 Like

Re: Fact About Pa Idu by scholes0(m): 1:51am On Nov 29, 2021
grin


Imasuen churning out "New History" (not intended to be an oxymoron) every day.

2 Likes

Re: Fact About Pa Idu by samuk: 11:08am On Nov 29, 2021
Pa Idu is not new history, you should ask yourself why the Igbo call Benin people Idu people, this is even assuming that you know that the Igbo call Benin Idu land.

2 Likes

Re: Fact About Pa Idu by scholes0(m): 1:27pm On Nov 30, 2021
samuk:
Pa Idu is not new history, you should ask yourself why the Igbo call Benin people Idu people, this is even assuming that you know that the Igbo call Benin Idu land.

lol, Pa Idu is not a new invention, but everything written about him up there is pure fabrication laced with some commonly known myths to give it some authenticity. grin

4 Likes

Re: Fact About Pa Idu by engrehimen: 9:06pm On May 03, 2022
How many times was the replica of the shrine established. See 6 and 9 above. If the Azama already brought the scelpter of authority with a replica shrine built in the days of the Ogisos why were the Obas still travelling to Uhe?
Re: Fact About Pa Idu by SirNewtonNG: 3:51am On Jul 18, 2022
samuk:
FACTS ABOUT PA IDU

1. Pa Idu was born at Ogbe N’Alaka a place that eventually became the homestead of later Ogiso’s and Oba’s of Benin.
2. Pa Idu father was known as Ere (not to be mistaken as Ogiso Ere) he was the founder of Uhunmwundumwun (premier town), a place hundreds of years later Ogiso Ere moved the palace to from Ugbekun. Pa Idu father Ere, is where the ancient word Otamere (evening tide favored Ere) was created from.
3. Pa Idu is generally accepted as the Progenitor of the Benin race and all its descendants because the chroniclers of our remembered history, Ughoron; popularize his name above other native indigenes of which Idu came out from.
4. Pa Idu had three sons: Akka, Efa and Emehi. Efa and Emehi are the fathers of the modern day Benin population,
5. Through legitimacy of ancient ownership the Efa and Emehi families are the owners of Edo land as every other families came from them.
6. Pa Idu died at Uhe(not to be mistaken as Ile-Ife) present day Igala areas of Kogi State and was referred to as Oghene N’Uhe by the earliest Benin natives, he was deified as a Priest King. The Chief priest and scepter bearer of the Oghene N’ Uhe shrine, Azama; followed Akka, Efa and Emehi back to Benin land and a replica of the shrine was built here in Benin land, the descendants of the Azama N’Uhe are the Oloton family of Benin and they are the custodian of the scepter of authority of Pa Idu carried by Azama and bequeathed to the descendants of Efa and Emehi.
7. Earliest Portuguese referred to Oghene N’Uhe(Pa Idu) as “Ogane” the great potentate of the interior.
8. All Ogisos starting from Ere to Oba Ewuare I all went on pilgrimage visit to pay respect to their progenitor at Uhe, a sort of confirmation and spiritual renewal ritual. A ritual also conducted by Ikaladerhan before he became a ruler in Ile-Ife.
9. When the later Oba’s of Benin discovered the complexity of the pilgrimage visit and the decline of the Uhe town they created “Erinmwidu” a replica of Oghene N’ Uhe Shrine and made it Royalty. Hence Erinmwidu is the royal deity of the Benin people.
10. Idusere, Idusogie, Idugbowa etc. reaffirm the Benin native ownership of Idu ideology hence Idu is Benin, Benin is Idu.

Let the legacies of Pa Idu be remembered by us all his children.
Pa Idu gha to kpere. Ise
Oba gha to kpere. Ise

Written by
Imasuen Amowie Izoduwa

TAO11 You missed have missed this episode of another round of "benin revisionism " grin cheesy ; This guys are hilarious. Seems imasuen izoduwa doesn't already realize oba erediauwa already revealed the identity of the oghene n'uhe as none other than ooni of ife. I wonder which uhe is in kogi o grin

4 Likes

Re: Fact About Pa Idu by RedboneSmith(m): 3:21pm On Jul 18, 2022
Idu as a historical person is very unlikely. Idu is an exonym, a name given to Benin by Igbo people. It is an Igbo term (with Igbo meanings), and not an Edo term. It's re-invention as a person is likely the result of latter-day mythopoesis.

5 Likes

Re: Fact About Pa Idu by samuk: 7:48am On Jul 19, 2022
RedboneSmith:
Idu as a historical person is very unlikely. Idu is an exonym, a name given to Benin by Igbo people. It is an Igbo term (with Igbo meanings), and not an Edo term. It's re-invention as a person is likely the result of latter-day mythopoesis.

According to you Idu is an Igbo word, yet it's severally referenced in Benin, both in names of individuals, locations and shrine.

Idu, AKA, Efa and Emehi are ancient Benin names. The fact that the Urhobo call Benin people AKA people doesn't mean its an Urhobo word, AKA like Efa, Emehi and Idu, all have verifiable historical landmarks in Benin.

These verifiable historical references to these ancient names were not just created yesterday. The reason the Benin/Ife connection is having serious problems is due to lack of verifiable historical references in Benin.

3 Likes

Re: Fact About Pa Idu by RedboneSmith(m): 7:57am On Jul 19, 2022
samuk:


According to you Idu is an Igbo word, yet its severally referenced in Benin, both in names of individuals, locations and shrine.

Idu, AKA, Efa and Emehi are ancient Benin names. The fact that the Urhobo call Benin people AKA people doesn't mean its an Urhobo word, AKA like Efa, Emehi and Idu, all have verifiable historical landmarks in Benin.

These verifiable historical references to these ancient names were not just created yesterday. The reason the Benin/Ife connection is having serious problems is due to lack of verifiable historical references in Benin.

The fact that the word 'Idu' was incorporated into Benin's cultural space in the forms you've mentioned is testament to early intimate relationship between the Benin people and their neighbours to the east.

Idu etymologically is an Igbo word. What does it mean in Edo? I know of at least two meanings of Idu in Igbo.

2 Likes

Re: Fact About Pa Idu by samuk: 8:24am On Jul 19, 2022
RedboneSmith:


The fact that the word 'Idu' was incorporated into Benin's cultural space in the forms you've mentioned is testament to early intimate relationship between the Benin people and their neighbours to the east.

Idu etymologically is an Igbo word. What does it mean in Edo? I know of at least two meanings of Idu in Igbo.

The name Idu was most likely taking to the east by easterners who may have either occupied same space or live in close proximity to the Benin. Most Benin shrines are ancient, in fact shrine to the gods or deity are no longer in vogue/popular.

Igbo most have come into contact with Benin during the periods they were still know as Idu people and this is how the name was carried to the east. The Urhobo left Benin during the period Benin people were known as AKA people, this is why the Urhobo still call Benin AKA people.

All this point to the time of contact in history of various groups with Benin.

History of ancient Benin empire have verifiable historical references, this is why revisionists stories about Benin does not stand the test of time.

The popular Ugbowo Road leading to UNIBEN for example, got it's name Ugbo Owo (farm of Owo) because that area was the location that was occupied and farmed by Owo people in ancient times.

Benin/Igala connection was suppressed and revised in favour of Ife in Osun State. Benin Uhe was in Igala land. There's absolutely no reason for Benin to reference Igala in her history other than to tell the true history of the people and land.

2 Likes

Re: Fact About Pa Idu by samuk: 8:40am On Jul 19, 2022
RedboneSmith:


The fact that the word 'Idu' was incorporated into Benin's cultural space in the forms you've mentioned is testament to early intimate relationship between the Benin people and their neighbours to the east.

Idu etymologically is an Igbo word. What does it mean in Edo? I know of at least two meanings of Idu in Igbo.

So the Benin decided to name a shrine Idu, incorporated Idu into Benin names and name a location/Town Idu because Igbo people call Benin people Idu.

2 Likes

Re: Fact About Pa Idu by RedboneSmith(m): 9:01am On Jul 19, 2022
One of the problems I have with the neighbours of Igbo-speaking peoples, especially the Edo and the Igala, is that they have this hardened belief that their cultural relationship with the Igbo was one-way, and that the Igbo were always on the receiving end of cultural influence from them, while they never picked up anything from the Igbo. Anytime the Edo man or the Igala man comes across something he shares with his Igbo neighbor, the tendency is to jump to the conclusion (without consideration to linguistic and etymological logic) that the Igbo must have learnt it from them.

The first question to ask about "Idu" is: if Idu was an Edo endonym for themselves, how do you explain the fact that none of their neighbours historically used this word for them, except for the Igbo? Edo (Benin) people had ancient interactions with Yoruba, Urhobo, Iteskiri, Esan, but they did not take "Idu" to them, except to the Igbo and Igboid people to the east. How? Why?

There's only one logical explanation: the word was an Igbo word to begin with, an Igbo exonym for Benin.

And Idu actually does have Igbo meanings:

One, it means 'bush'.
Two (and this is the meaning that is more relevant to this discussion), it means 'a crowd', 'an agglomeration of people' or 'a community'.

The Igbo called Benin "Idu n'Oba" which means "the Community of the Oba" or "The Oba's Community" in Igbo. Often rendered simply for the sake of brevity as "Idu."

Idu or Iduu is still used even in parts the southeast to mean 'people' or 'community', especially in the Omambala area.

Could you kindly give me an Edo etymology of "Idu"? Having ancient Idu-named shrines doesn't confer an Edo provenance on the name; it only indicates an ancient relationship between the Igbo and the Edo.

Even your word "Idumwun" (called Idumu by Esan and us in Anioma) is an Igboid term in its etymological roots.

I can break down "Idumu" to meaningful units in Igbo:

Idu = community
Ụmụ = children/descendants

Idumuobi (common name of lineages in Anioma) = community of the descendants of the Obi.

Idumuje (in Esan) = community of the descendants of the Oje, i.e., the royal quarters.

Idumwun Ewaise (in Benin) = community of the descendants of the royal physicians and diviners.

Again, could you offer an etymology for your "Idumwun"?

5 Likes

Re: Fact About Pa Idu by samuk: 9:35am On Jul 19, 2022
RedboneSmith:
One of the problems I have with the neighbours of Igbo-speaking peoples, especially the Edo and the Igala, is that they have this hardened belief that their cultural relationship with the Igbo was one-way, and that the Igbo were always on the receiving end of cultural influence from them, while they never picked up anything from the Igbo. Anytime the Edo man or the Igala man comes across something he shares with his Igbo neighbor, the tendency is to jump to the conclusion (without consideration to linguistic and etymological logic) that the Igbo must have learnt it from them.

The first question to ask about "Idu" is: if Idu was an Edo endonym for themselves, how do you explain the fact that none of their neighbours historically used this word for them, except for the Igbo? Edo (Benin) people had ancient interactions with Yoruba, Urhobo, Iteskiri, Esan, but they did not take "Idu" to them, except to the Igbo and Igboid people to the east. How? Why?

There's only one logical explanation: the word was an Igbo word to begin with, an Igbo exonym for Benin.

And Idu actually does have Igbo meanings:

One, it means 'bush'.
Two (and this is the meaning that is more relevant to this discussion), it means 'a crowd', 'an agglomeration of people' or 'a community'.

The Igbo called Benin "Idu n'Oba" which means "the Community of the Oba" or "The Oba's Community" in Igbo. Often rendered simply for the sake of brevity as "Idu."

Idu or Iduu is still used even in parts the southeast to mean 'people' or 'community', especially in the Omambala area.

Could you kindly give me an Edo etymology of "Idu"? Having ancient Idu-named shrines doesn't confer an Edo provenance on the name; it only indicates an ancient relationship between the Igbo and the Edo.

Even your word "Idumwun" (called Idumu by Esan and us in Anioma) is an Igboid term in its etymological roots.

I can break down "Idumu" to meaningful units in Igbo:

Idu = community
Ụmụ = children/descendants

Idumuobi (common name of lineages in Anioma) = community of the descendants of the Obi.

Idumuje (in Esan) = community of the descendants of the Oje, i.e., the royal quarters.

Idumwun Ewaise (in Benin) = community of the descendants of the royal physicians and diviners.

Again, could you offer an etymology for your "Idumwun"?


You said Idumwun have it's root in both Esan and Igbo but was quick to limit your Igbo to Anioma. Does Idumwun also have its etymological root in the several other tribes that make up the wider Igbo community.

Igbo, like her Yoruba counterpart are modern conglomerates. Various tribes came together to form the wider Igbo nation. Each of these tribes brought with them their own contribution in terms of language, food culture etc to enriched the Igbo nation. So an ancient Edo/Esan, Igala Ibibio etc tribes that are part of Igbo today took some of their culture to Igbo land and some of these culture and traditions can still be recognised by their home lands.

Idumwun is an Edo word that was contributed to Anioma branch of Igbo by Edo people that share the Anioma space with various other tribes, this is the reason Idumwun may not resonate with Igbo from Abia, Anambra or Imo.

The Igbo language is still evolving, borrowing from various ancient and much older cultures around her. It's the aggregates of these various ancient cultures that gave birth to Igbo.

It's possible that Benin could have pick something from one of those tribes that came together to form Igbo, but which of them.

Every culture America borrowed from Europe still have their cultural roots in Europe. Idu, Idumwun have it's cultural roots in old Benin empire.

Idumwun like you said means a community. The ancient Benin created several Idumwun across the empire, Idomota (Idumwun Ota) in Lagos means a community were people come together for a meeting/discussion, Idumagbo is another of such Lagos Benin community, even the present location of the Lagos (Benin) monarchy Idunganran. Benin created several Idumwun in eastern yoruba and Ika land.

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Re: Fact About Pa Idu by RedboneSmith(m): 10:08am On Jul 19, 2022
samuk:


You said Idumwun have it's root in both Esan and Igbo but was quick to limit your Igbo to Anioma. Does Idumwun also have its etymological root in the several other tribes that make up the wider Igbo community.


Nope. I didn't say it has roots in both Esan and Igbo. It's origin is unequivocally Igbo, and diffused to both Esan and Benin. You didn't understand what I said there.

And, no. The Southeasterners don't use idumu to mean quarters like is done in Anioma, but this doesn't mean that etymologically the roots of 'Idumu' cannot be understood by a Southeasterner. It was an Anioma innovation but linguistically is still Igboid. To give an example: in the southeast, soup is called 'ofe' in Standard Igbo, but the Ikwerre of Rivers State call it 'mini wiri'. But does it mean "mini wiri" is not Igboid? No. 'mini wiri' is cognate with 'miri nri' which means 'food' s water' or 'sauce for eating food' in Igbo. The Ikwerre word is therefore still etymologically Igbo, even if it isn't used in Central/Standard Igbo. It's the same basic concept with Idumu.

Idumwun is an Edo word that was contributed to Anioma branch of Igbo by Edo people that share the Anioma space with various other tribes, this is the reason Idumwun may not resonate with Igbo from Abia, Anambra or Imo.


Then you should be able to break it done into its constituent units and explain it. But you apparently can't. And while we are on the topic of Igbo expressions loaned to Edo:

I hope you won't disagree that the "Uku" that appears in the praise name of your Oba "Uku Akpolokpolo" is from the Igbo word for "big or great".

Or that the Edo word for gun, osisi, is from the Igbo word for stick (applied to the early daneguns because they looked like long sticks), and is still used to describe guns throughout Anioma.

Or that the Edo word for skirt buluku, is from the Igbo word 'mbuluku' or 'mbunuku' or 'mbenuku/mbenukwu', which in Igbo means 'that which is girded around the waist'.

The Igbo language is still evolving, borrowing from various ancient and much older cultures around her. It's the aggregates of these various ancient cultures that gave birth to Igbo.

Which language isn't continually evolving and borrowing? What exactly is the point of this paragraph?

It's possible that Benin could have pick something from one of those tribes that came together to form Igbo, but which of them.
Deliberately evasive. I will be waiting for an Edo etymology of Idu and Idumwun. Cheers. smiley

4 Likes

Re: Fact About Pa Idu by RedboneSmith(m): 10:14am On Jul 19, 2022
samuk:


Idumwun like you said means a community. The ancient Benin created several Idumwun across the empire, Idomota (Idumwun Ota) in Lagos means a community were people come together for a meeting/discussion, Idumagbo is another of such Lagos Benin community, even the present location of the Lagos (Benin) monarchy Idunganran. Benin created several Idumwun in eastern yoruba and Ika land.

I do not doubt that Benin took "Idumwun" to Lagos. What is in question is the etymological roots of the word itself. Europeans brought potatoes, tomatoes, tobacco, cassava and maize to us, but all of these words "potatoes, tomatoes, tobacco, cassava, maize" are not European words. They are Native American words.

Your ancestors may have taken idumwun to wherever, but the word itself is Igboid. If you have a satisfactory Edo etymology for it, then provide it and let us examine it.

1 Like

Re: Fact About Pa Idu by samuk: 10:44am On Jul 19, 2022
RedboneSmith:


I do not doubt that Benin took "Idumwun" to Lagos. What is in question is the etymological roots of the word itself. Europeans brought potatoes, tomatoes, tobacco, cassava and maize to us, but all of these words "potatoes, tomatoes, tobacco, cassava, maize" are not European words. They are Native American words.

Your ancestors may have taken idumwun to wherever, but the word itself is Igboid. If you have a satisfactory Edo etymology for it, then provide it and let us examine it.

You are trying to over simplify the discussion by saying Igbo word, Igbo is made up of various tribes, which of these numerous Igbo tribes did my ancestors borrowed the word Idumwun from.

I am very sure that Idumwun is only confined to only those Igbo community that share close affinity or historical links with Benin and not the wider Igbo nation. I am sure numerous Igbo people don't use the word Idumwun and probably doesn't even know the meaning.

You are committing the same logical fallacy as some of our yoruba neighbours by trying to play with similar words in both cultures in the name of etymology. Perhaps you should begin to research the etymological titles of obas of Benin who obviously had Edo names and let see how far you can go. Numerous Edo words and some of their meanings are buried in antiquity but they leave alot behind in other forms to show their origin.

Since you insist that Edo borrowed the word from Igbo, please tell us which of the tribes of
Igbo Benin borrowed it from and don't forget core Igbo are in the south east, Anioma/Ika have several Edo people. Even in the Igbo heartland of South East, there are community that traces their migrations back to Benin. So in telling us the Igbo tribes Benin borrowed the word Idumwun from, avoid those Igbo tribes that traces their origin to Benin.

So Benin borrowed Idumwun from Igbo in the 1500s and spread it across the empire, don't forget Benin was already in Lagos by 1500s, a time that have no evidence of the word Igbo.

The earliest Igbo writer Equiano didn't even mention his tribe as Igbo in the 1700s, about 200 years after Benin arrived Lagos.
Re: Fact About Pa Idu by RedboneSmith(m): 11:08am On Jul 19, 2022
samuk:


You are trying to over simplify the discussion by saying Igbo word, Igbo is made up of various tribes, which of these numerous Igbo tribes did my ancestors borrowed the word Idumwun from.

I am very sure that Idumwun is only confined to only those Igbo community that share close affinity or historical links with Benin and not the wider Igbo nation. I am sure numerous Igbo people don't use the word Idumwun and probably doesn't even know the meaning.

You are committing the same logical fallacy as some of our yoruba neighbours by trying to play with similar words in both cultures in the name of etymology. Perhaps you should begin to research the etymological titles of obas of Benin who obviously had Edo names and let see how far you can go. Numerous Edo words and some of their meanings and buried in antiquity.

Since you insist that Edo borrowed the word from Igbo, please tell us which of the tribes of
Igbo Benin borrowed it from and don't forget core Igbo are in the south east, Anioma/Ika have several Edo people. Even in the Igbo heartland of South East, there are community that traces their migrations back to Benin.

What you're trying to do is reduce this to a conversation about 'migration traditions' and I am determined to keep it in the realm of linguistics, because what I am talking about is LINGUISTICS, pure and simple.

Idu and Ụmụ are linguistically Igbo. All of Igboland doesn't have to use the compound term Idumu coined from these two words, before it's linguistic origin could be recognizable as Igbo. Same way all of Igboland doesn't have to use 'mini wiri' before its etymology could be recognizable as Igbo.

I am still asking you for an Edo etymology, but you're carefully avoiding the request, perhaps because you know there is none?

5 Likes

Re: Fact About Pa Idu by RedboneSmith(m): 11:23am On Jul 19, 2022
samuk:


Even in the Igbo heartland of South East, there are community that traces their migrations back to Benin. So in telling us the Igbo tribes Benin borrowed the word Idumwun from, avoid those Igbo tribes that traces their origin to Benin.


See that thing I am saying. While I am talking about linguistics, you seem to be focused on traditions of migration. These are two topics belonging to different realms of enquiry. But every time I discuss with Benin and Igala people they seem unable to separate the study of the origin of words from a study of migration traditions. It gets quite frustrating.

So Benin borrowed Idumwun from Igbo in the 1500s and spread it across the empire, don't forget Benin was already in Lagos by 1500s, a time that have no evidence of the word Igbo.

I don't remember saying Benin learnt idumu from the Igbo in the 1500s. I don't remember putting a date to when this linguistic transaction occurred. So I don't know what you're talking about here. For the records, the Igbo and the Edo were probably in contact long before the 1500s.

The earliest Igbo writer Equiano didn't even mention his tribe as Igbo in the 1700s, about 200 years after Benin arrived Lagos.

You have said this about Equiano before, and I told you you were wrong and had probably not read Equiano's book. Equiano clearly said he was 'Eboe' in his book. And even if he didn't (he did), what does that have to do with anything?

When people say there was no 'Igbo' before the 20th century, they make it sound like Europeans arrived, waved a magic wand and suddenly the people there started saying 'bia' and 'igwe' and 'ede'. A people who were linguistically 'Igbo' had existed there for a long time before the Igbo ethnogenesis of the 20th century happened. The people were fully capable of spreading Igbo lexical items before pan-Igbo ethnic identity developed. I didn't think this was something that had to be explained to anyone, but apparently it is.

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Re: Fact About Pa Idu by samuk: 6:09pm On Jul 19, 2022
RedboneSmith:


Nope. I didn't say it has roots in both Esan and Igbo. It's origin is unequivocally Igbo, and diffused to both Esan and Benin. You didn't understand what I said there.

And, no. The Southeasterners don't use idumu to mean quarters like is done in Anioma, but this doesn't mean that etymologically the roots of 'Idumu' cannot be understood by a Southeasterner. It was an Anioma innovation but linguistically is still Igboid. To give an example: in the southeast, soup is called 'ofe' in Standard Igbo, but the Ikwerre of Rivers State call it 'mini wiri'. But does it mean "mini wiri" is not Igboid? No. 'mini wiri' is cognate with 'miri nri' which means 'food' s water' or 'sauce for eating food' in Igbo. The Ikwerre word is therefore still etymologically Igbo, even if it isn't used in Central/Standard Igbo. It's the same basic concept with Idumu.



Then you should be able to break it done into its constituent units and explain it. But you apparently can't. And while we are on the topic of Igbo expressions loaned to Edo:

I hope you won't disagree that the "Uku" that appears in the praise name of your Oba "Uku Akpolokpolo" is from the Igbo word for "big or great".

Or that the Edo word for gun, osisi, is from the Igbo word for stick (applied to the early daneguns because they looked like long sticks), and is still used to describe guns throughout Anioma.

Or that the Edo word for skirt buluku, is from the Igbo word 'mbuluku' or 'mbunuku' or 'mbenuku/mbenukwu', which in Igbo means 'that which is girded around the waist'.



Which language isn't continually evolving and borrowing? What exactly is the point of this paragraph?


Deliberately evasive. I will be waiting for an Edo etymology of Idu and Idumwun. Cheers. smiley

The point of disagreement is you using the word Igbo. Perhaps what you should be saying is that Benin had a shared culture with one of the numerous tribes that later became Igbo. Igbo is a recent creation that borrowed and keep borrowing from her older neighbours.

There is no doubt that the Edo language share numerous words and their meanings with what we now called Igbo, this is so because Edo tribe is part of what we now call Igbo, Igbo is a conglomerate of Edo, Ijaw, Ikwerre, Igala, Ibibio etc. Modern Igbo borrowed from these various culture and languages and not the other way round.

America is a collection of various cultures and languages, America borrowed from Europe, Latin America, Africa, etc. The America English is based on England English. America borrowed from England linguistically and not the other way.

The Modern Igbo language is a hybrid of other languages. There are numerous Edo words in Igbo language, I say Edo words because Edo is older, however Edo could have borrowed or be influenced by any of the older tribes that is now part of the wider Igbo nation. Igbo as a baby language couldn't have influenced a much older Edo just as a baby America couldn’t have influenced England English linguistically.

Any word that is share between Edo and Igbo was contributed by the Edo people that are now part of the Igbo nation, likewise any words shared between modern Igbo and Ikwerre, same as Ijaw, Ibibio, Igala, etc.

There are Igala words in Igbo language, not Igbo words in Igala language because Igbo is the hybrid. This is why an Edo, Igala, Ikwerre, Ijaw, Ibibio etc are able to pick few words from the modern hybrid Igbo language when it's spoken. Same way an Igbo speaker is also able to pick from various languages around her when they are spoken.

Most Igbo word have their roots outside Igbo land, you can't say an Ikwerre word is linguistically Igbo, it's the other way round, an Igbo word could be linguistically Ikwerre, Ijaw, Igala, Edo, Ibibio, etc because these are some of the foundations or founding members of modern Igbo nation. The word Igbo didn't even exist few centuries back.

If Nigeria is able to create a common language today, that language is likely going to borrow from the various ethnic nationalities that make up Nigeria and most of the words in the new language will have their roots in these various nationalities. The new Nigeria language will be the hybrid language. This is what Igbo is.

What people like you are doing is trying to erase the contributions of other older cultures to the wider Igbo nation in your quest to build a pan Igbo nation, this is why some of you become very hostile to any Igbo that traces their origin outside the south east.

This mentality is akin to the Nazi Adolf Hitler aryan race experiments that led to the second World War. Igbo is not a homogenous or monolithic tribe. The wider Igala nation knows their contribution to today's Igbo nation just the way the Edo nation knows her contribution to today's Igbo nation.

Not all tribes in the south South you call Igbo is comfortable with the Igbo identity.
Re: Fact About Pa Idu by UGBE634: 7:34pm On Jul 21, 2022
samuk:


The point of disagreement is you using the word Igbo. Perhaps what you should be saying is that Benin had a shared culture with one of the numerous tribes that later became Igbo. Igbo is a recent creation that borrowed and keep borrowing from her older neighbours.

There is no doubt that the Edo language share numerous words and their meanings with what we now called Igbo, this is so because Edo tribe is part of what we now call Igbo, Igbo is a conglomerate of Edo, Ijaw, Ikwerre, Igala, Ibibio etc. Modern Igbo borrowed from these various culture and languages and not the other way round.

America is a collection of various cultures and languages, America borrowed from Europe, Latin America, Africa, etc. The America English is based on England English. America borrowed from England linguistically and not the other way.

The Modern Igbo language is a hybrid of other languages. There are numerous Edo words in Igbo language, I say Edo words because Edo is older, however Edo could have borrowed or be influenced by any of the older tribes that is now part of the wider Igbo nation. Igbo as a baby language couldn't have influenced a much older Edo just as a baby America couldn’t have influenced England English linguistically.

Any word that is share between Edo and Igbo was contributed by the Edo people that are now part of the Igbo nation, likewise any words shared between modern Igbo and Ikwerre, same as Ijaw, Ibibio, Igala, etc.

There are Igala words in Igbo language, not Igbo words in Igala language because Igbo is the hybrid. This is why an Edo, Igala, Ikwerre, Ijaw, Ibibio etc are able to pick few words from the modern hybrid Igbo language when it's spoken. Same way an Igbo speaker is also able to pick from various languages around her when they are spoken.

Most Igbo word have their roots outside Igbo land, you can't say an Ikwerre word is linguistically Igbo, it's the other way round, an Igbo word could be linguistically Ikwerre, Ijaw, Igala, Edo, Ibibio, etc because these are some of the foundations or founding members of modern Igbo nation. The word Igbo didn't even exist few centuries back.

If Nigeria is able to create a common language today, that language is likely going to borrow from the various ethnic nationalities that make up Nigeria and most of the words in the new language will have their roots in these various nationalities. The new Nigeria language will be the hybrid language. This is what Igbo is.

What people like you are doing is trying to erase the contributions of other older cultures to the wider Igbo nation in your quest to build a pan Igbo nation, this is why some of you become very hostile to any Igbo that traces their origin outside the south east.

This mentality is akin to the Nazi Adolf Hitler aryan race experiments that led to the second World War. Igbo is not a homogenous or monolithic tribe. The wider Igala nation knows their contribution to today's Igbo nation just the way the Edo nation knows her contribution to today's Igbo nation.

Not all tribes in the south South you call Igbo is comfortable with the Igbo identity.
that's true, many of them migrated to their present location and outnumbered the host communities. The influence of these groups that was outnumbered must have remained and formed part of the lect called Igbo today
And it was from the unity of these Igbo groups with their different variations, that the new standard Igbo lect was formed. I understand your perspective

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Re: Fact About Pa Idu by macof(m): 7:33pm On Jul 23, 2022
RedboneSmith:


Nope. I didn't say it has roots in both Esan and Igbo. It's origin is unequivocally Igbo, and diffused to both Esan and Benin. You didn't understand what I said there.

And, no. The Southeasterners don't use idumu to mean quarters like is done in Anioma, but this doesn't mean that etymologically the roots of 'Idumu' cannot be understood by a Southeasterner. It was an Anioma innovation but linguistically is still Igboid. To give an example: in the southeast, soup is called 'ofe' in Standard Igbo, but the Ikwerre of Rivers State call it 'mini wiri'. But does it mean "mini wiri" is not Igboid? No. 'mini wiri' is cognate with 'miri nri' which means 'food' s water' or 'sauce for eating food' in Igbo. The Ikwerre word is therefore still etymologically Igbo, even if it isn't used in Central/Standard Igbo. It's the same basic concept with Idumu.



Then you should be able to break it done into its constituent units and explain it. But you apparently can't. And while we are on the topic of Igbo expressions loaned to Edo:

I hope you won't disagree that the "Uku" that appears in the praise name of your Oba "Uku Akpolokpolo" is from the Igbo word for "big or great".

Or that the Edo word for gun, osisi, is from the Igbo word for stick (applied to the early daneguns because they looked like long sticks), and is still used to describe guns throughout Anioma.

Or that the Edo word for skirt buluku, is from the Igbo word 'mbuluku' or 'mbunuku' or 'mbenuku/mbenukwu', which in Igbo means 'that which is girded around the waist'.



Which language isn't continually evolving and borrowing? What exactly is the point of this paragraph?


Deliberately evasive. I will be waiting for an Edo etymology of Idu and Idumwun. Cheers. smiley

Thanks for this knowledge. You should do a series on words in other languages with igbo origins using etymological breakdowns like this because we rarely see igbo language broken down..
At least I don't

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Re: Fact About Pa Idu by RedboneSmith(m): 1:27am On Jul 26, 2022
macof:


Thanks for this knowledge. You should do a series on words in other languages with igbo origins using etymological breakdowns like this because we rarely see igbo language broken down..
At least I don't

If I choose to have this conversation, there are people here who will accuse me of revising history and land grabbing. grin

But one day.

Iha Ominigbon (one of the two prominent divination systems among the Edo, the other being the Yoruba-imported Orunmila system) was introduced by Igbo Dibies, and there are linguistic/etymological evidence and even some indirect oral tradition evidence that point to this.

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Re: Fact About Pa Idu by UGBE634: 4:11pm On Nov 25, 2022
RedboneSmith:
Idu as a historical person is very unlikely. Idu is an exonym, a name given to Benin by Igbo people. It is an Igbo term (with Igbo meanings), and not an Edo term. It's re-invention as a person is likely the result of latter-day mythopoesis.
I don't think so, there might just have been a pa Idu. He is certainly one of the father's of Binis oldest families. There is a family in Benin that has Laidu as their mode of greeting. I don't know if this helps in anyway

It would be hard to say there was not a pa Idu when about two solid families that might be in their hundreds of thousands greet La-Idu.

This is Edo language greeting 4 on YouTube, on time stamp 9:35, you will see where the man there talked about the family of Ogiefa greeting La-Idu.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5LCaxmPdxQU

This is Edo language greeting 5 on youtube, on time stamp 7:45, you will see where the man there talked about the family or descendants of Idu himself greeting La-Idu.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BOBY3QxokR0

Hence it would be hard to say there was not an actual Pa Idu when he has descendants everywhere using his name to show that he was once here and alive. These families are majorly from Udo. One of Binis most ancient community.

He must have been the earliest to settle here in Bini that is why they call him our father pa idu. but his descendants are strong uncontested evidence that he was once alive.

There are more to this things than meet the eye, I believe that's why the Igbos call us Ndi-Idu. The eldest family they met on ground as at the time they related strongly with Benin was this pa Idu. cc samuk

I believe most other Bini indigenous lineages were breakaway lineages from him

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Re: Fact About Pa Idu by samuk: 9:59pm On Nov 25, 2022
UGBE634:
I don't think so, there might just have been a pa Idu. He is certainly one of the father's of Binis oldest families. There is a family in Benin that has Laidu as their mode of greeting. I don't know if this helps in anyway

It would be hard to say there was not a pa Idu when about two solid families that might be in their hundreds of thousands greet La-Idu.

This is Edo language greeting 4 on YouTube, on time stamp 9:35, you will see where the man there talked about the family of Ogiefa greeting La-Idu.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5LCaxmPdxQU

This is Edo language greeting 5 on youtube, on time stamp 7:45, you will see where the man there talked about the family or descendants of Idu himself greeting La-Idu.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BOBY3QxokR0

Hence it would be hard to say there was not an actual Pa Idu when he has descendants everywhere using his name to show that he was once here and alive. These families are majorly from Udo. One of Binis most ancient community.

He must have been the earliest to settle here in Bini that is why they call him our father pa idu. but his descendants are strong uncontested evidence that he was once alive.

There are more to this things than meet the eye, I believe that's why the Igbos call us Ndi-Idu. The eldest family they met on ground as at the time they related strongly with Benin was this pa Idu. cc samuk

I believe most other Bini indigenous lineages were breakaway lineages from him

Ogiefa family palace is in Benin. Benin history is too deep for some of these guys.

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Re: Fact About Pa Idu by UGBE634: 3:32am On Nov 26, 2022
samuk:


Ogiefa family palace is in Benin. Benin history is too deep for some of these guys.
Yes I know I mean origin, where there are two or more families having the same lineage greetings, it shows strongly that they are related. No matter where they are today in the world. The descendants of the Enogie of Ehor and the Oba of Benin both greets Lamogun. I don't need a soothsayer to be told that the present Enogie of Ehor (that is if there is any dynasty in Ehor before now) descended from the Oba's family even if they are both recognized as separate lineages in the 74 Bini lineage.

I am also aware there is a mighty Eriwmin-Idu shrine in Udo. Most persons I have seen with the La-Idu lineage greeting, are from Udo, that shows the Origin is undeniably Udo, Except for the La-ovbieze lineage, which is not really a lineage, as one can be assimilated into the La-ovbieze group when one becomes an Iyase. The others are essentially brothers and if a lineage is not so large, they will even refuse you marrying from them

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Re: Fact About Pa Idu by samuk: 9:35am On Nov 26, 2022
UGBE634:
Yes I know I mean origin, where there are two or more families having the same lineage greetings, it shows strongly that they are related. No matter where they are today in the world. The descendants of the Enogie of Ehor and the Oba of Benin both greets Lamogun. I don't need a soothsayer to be told that the present Enogie of Ehor (that is if there is any dynasty in Ehor before now) descended from the Oba's family even if they are both recognized as separate lineages in the 74 Bini lineage.

I am also aware there is a mighty Eriwmin-Idu shrine in Udo. Most persons I have seen with the La-Idu lineage greeting, are from Udo, that shows the Origin is undeniably Udo, Except for the La-ovbieze lineage, which is not really a lineage, as one can be assimilated into the La-ovbieze group when one becomes an Iyase. The others are essentially brothers and if a lineage is not so large, they will even refuse you marrying from them

Just to add:

I saw a presentation by Imaseun Izoduwa that said that the Oba family didn't begin with Lamogun, that it was acquired from the original owners from Igun Street. Imaseun Izoduwa worked with notable Benin historians. I can't remember what the original oba family greeting was and the Oba that changed it. Imaseun Izoduwa have numerous materials on Benin history, you can compare notes with him if you are interested.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5LCaxmPdxQU


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BOBY3QxokR0

This is deep, hopefully someone will comprehensively research these individuals family history in the future. Just hearing some of the pronunciations was like listening to a language from antiquity.

1 Like

Re: Fact About Pa Idu by Ogamysamo: 11:12am On Nov 26, 2022
RedboneSmith:
Idu as a historical person is very unlikely. Idu is an exonym, a name given to Benin by Igbo people. It is an Igbo term (with Igbo meanings), and not an Edo term. It's re-invention as a person is likely the result of latter-day mythopoesis.
pls what does the idu means in igbo cause it is also an igala word which makes me almost ask if the man in question is an igala man

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Re: Fact About Pa Idu by samuk: 11:53am On Nov 26, 2022
Ogamysamo:

pls what does the idu means in igbo cause it is also an igala word which makes me almost ask if the man in question is an igala man

There are historical point of view that believe old Benin people, Igala and Ife people were part of the same people, this is long before the word Igbo or Yoruba existed, long before modern Igbo and yoruba nations were put together. So in time past, Benin and Igala Kingdoms dominated and influenced southern and middle belt Nigeria. This influence resorted in some similarities in language and culture between modern Igbo and Igala on one hand and modern Igbo and Benin on the other hand. This is why the name Idu may appear in both, Benin, Igala and modern Igbo
so it's lack of historical depth that will make a person say Idu (a name that appears in atleast three languages) is purely an Igbo name.

Old Benin empire had relationship with Igala. An aspect of Igala traditions believe that Benin had a dynasty that lasted about 150 years in Igala land. Old Benin rulers were believed to have made pilgrimages to a Benin shrine in Igala land. The war between Oba Esigie and Attah of Igala is well remembered in Benin oral tradition and was writing about by the Portuguese eyewitness who fought on the side of Benin.

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Re: Fact About Pa Idu by RedboneSmith(m): 3:11pm On Nov 26, 2022
Ogamysamo:

pls what does the idu means in igbo cause it is also an igala word which makes me almost ask if the man in question is an igala man

Idu in Igbo means "a group of people" or "a bush". When we refer to Benin as Idu n'ọba, what it literally means to us is 'The Oba' s people' or 'the people under the Oba'

I'm aware that in Igala, Idu could mean a lion or a task.

Note that in Igbo, lion is odum or eduke. Notice the du root, which also found in the Igala word for it, suggesting that the Igbo and Igala words for lion are cognates.

Anyway, it appears that the Igala 'idu' is cognatically different from the Benin 'Idu'.

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Re: Fact About Pa Idu by UGBE634: 4:40pm On Nov 26, 2022
RedboneSmith:


Idu in Igbo means "a group of people" or "a bush". When we refer to Benin as Idu n'ọba, what it literally means to us is 'The Oba' s people' or 'the people under the Oba'

I'm aware that in Igala, Idu could mean a lion or a task.

Note that in Igbo, lion is odum or eduke. Notice the du root, which also found in the Igala word for it, suggesting that the Igbo and Igala words for lion are cognates.

Anyway, it appears that the Igala 'idu' is cognatically different from the Benin 'Idu'.

Do you also know the word Oduma means Lion in Benin. cc samuk.

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Re: Fact About Pa Idu by samuk: 6:17pm On Nov 26, 2022
UGBE634:
Do you also know the word Oduma means Lion in Benin. cc samuk.

It just goes back to my earlier point of the older kingdoms of Benin and Igala influencing modern day Igbo. Ovie-Udu also means strong hearted or lion heart in Benin. Ovie-udu, udu, Oduma all references lion in Benin. The root du will seem to be from same Benin and Igala source from antiquity because it seems to have similar meaning in both Benin and Igala. I hope our Igbo friend is learning. grin imagine people that know nothing about Benin history trying to tell it. The Benin themselves are still scratching the surface of their vast history.

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Re: Fact About Pa Idu by UGBE634: 7:10pm On Nov 26, 2022
samuk:


It just goes back to my earlier point of the older kingdoms of Benin and Igala influencing modern day Igbo. Ovie-Udu also means strong hearted or lion heart in Benin. Ovie-udu, udu, Oduma all references lion in Benin. The root du will seem to be from same Benin and Igala source from antiquity because it seems to have similar meaning in both Benin and Igala. I hope our Igbo friend is learning. grin imagine people that know nothing about Benin history trying to tell it. The Benin themselves are still scratching the surface of their vast history.
The Benin language is deep, it is not what anyone can define, that's why I normally use pidgin for my translation,and many a times I will still feel I have not pushed my point home enough. There has been scenarios where I will understand somethings in my mind, if I cannot really bring it to bare in english or pidgin, I will just leave it so I will not alter the meaning

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