If we are not getting Sneijder, Modric or whatever. . . . maybe we should start considering priming Rooney for a midfield role!

montelik:

http://www.sabotagetimes.com/football-sport/manchester-united-forget-wesley-sneijder-we-need-to-replace-hargreaves

Very interesting article, well worth d read. D funniest part was

Funniest part for me is:

Then the following season, he quickly went from looking like a major asset to looking like a massive a*se. There are many conspiracy theories as to why his star has fallen. The most likely of those theories is that he was played out of position. He was given too much responsibility – primarily a defensive minded midfielder, in the seasons post 2008/9, some argue that he’s been under pressure to offer more creatively and this theory would explain why his efforts to switch the play with a 40 yard cross field ball resemble something more akin to a personalised attack on the linesman. Being made to play in such a way has diluted his defensive influence on the team and if you add the fact that he seemed to play almost every game into the mix – its no wonder that he’s been struck down with a serious case of man flu – the poor guy must have been exhausted.

Anderson is faced with a similar situation. Once heralded as the new Ronaldinho, those comparisons now appear accurate for all the wrong reasons considering Ando’s dodgy haircut, dodgy dancing and increasingly poor fitness levels. If you take a cursory look at footage of Ando in his Porto days, you will see a dangerous player who bursts into the box before hammering the ball past the ‘keeper. Look at footage of him in a United shirt and you’ll see him saunter into the final third at a pace which is can described as glacial at best, before releasing a tame toe poke in the direction of the corner flag.

Dayo, please come forth and defend/comment on this subtle allegation

An even better option would be Bastian Schweinsteiger, but I very much doubt that transfer would ever materialise for two reasons. Firstly, he signed a new contract last season, so he’d cost an absolute fortune – probably more than what it would cost to sign Wesley Sneijder. Secondly, the medical team at United are all too aware of what happened the last time we bought a dynamic midfielder from Bayern Munich.

How right is he about Anderson. . .
From the way he plays,we don't know whether he is coming or going. . .
As per Bayern,well. . .
EFCC needs to investigate them for selling us a dud,fitness-wise. . .

Hargreaves was just bad luck. Played a full season very well for us and then it all went down hill after that.

Mr_TA:

Hargreaves was just bad luck. Played a full season very well for us and then it all went down hill after that.

he has achieved more than fabregas, nasri, sagna, eboue, van persie, etc.
not how long but how well. . . . .hargreaves one full season with man utd is better than 90% of the players in the premier league.

and that is fine by me!

coogar:

he has achieved more than fabregas, nasri, sagna, eboue, van persie, etc.
not how long but how well. . . . .hargreaves one full season with man utd is better than 90% of the players in the premier league.

and that is fine by me!

Hargreaves would give his left nut to still be an EPL player like Emmanuel 'William Shakespeare' Eboue is.

debosky:

Hargreaves would give his left nut to still be an EPL player like Emmanuel 'William Shakespeare' Eboue is.

and why should that be? he has achieved what eboue is still trying to achieve. . . .
he has won the league in 2 different countries, won the champions league in 2 different countries. . . .was england's player of the year in 2006.
i think that is enough!

coogar:

and why should that be? he has achieved what eboue is still trying to achieve. . . .
he has won the league in 2 different countries, won the champions league in 2 different countries. . . .was england's player of the year in 2006.
i think that is enough!

If it were enough Hargo wouldn't be posting youtube videos of himself running around to convince clubs to sign him.

RuuDie:

Dayo, please come forth and defend/comment on this subtle allegation

Buying No Testing?

debosky:

If it were enough Hargo wouldn't be posting youtube videos of himself running around to convince clubs to sign him.

hargo is fulfilled. . . . .

debosky:

If it were enough Hargo wouldn't be posting youtube videos of himself running around to convince clubs to sign him.

Hargo played 1 season and won a CL and league

How many players in the Arsenal squad even has a league medal

"At this moment, I can't see another addition. The type of player we might have been looking for is not available. I am happy with the players I have got at this moment in time."


alarm don blow!!!!!!!

debosky:

If it were enough Hargo wouldn't be posting youtube videos of himself running around to convince clubs to sign him.

I'm pretty sure FErgie isn't serious about catching Barcelona,if that statement of not looking to sign any new players before the transfer window ends is credited to him.
I'm pretty sure FErgie is blind to see the gaping hole in the middle of out midfield.With the current set of players we have,it will be a miracle if that serious deficiency is covered.Or apparently he is still relying on Giggs to d othe biz.
I'm sure that the signings made at the close season won't help us achieve anything tangible this season till we have a midfield general.The only reliable midfielder we have is battling a mystery virus. . .unless Anderson is transformed, we really are in deep shyt. . .
@Ruud,
I read the article you posted,I'm thinking along those lines in terms of the mould of midfield player we should get.
I've never been a Sneijder fan,and I still think he won't be a perfect fit and in that sense I agree with the writer.

debosky:

If it were enough Hargo wouldn't be posting youtube videos of himself running around to convince clubs to sign him.

And the Fabregas that you people are bowing down to worship wants to leave and join a club where he can win any type of medal within his first season. . .yet Hargreaves has won the ultimate prize in club football with his single season. . .typical Arsenal fan trying to reduce the achievements of other players when there is a glaring deficiency in his own side. . .the last player to win anything tangible left your squad for City. . .instead you're poking fun at a proven winner with more medals than the entire Arsenal squad. . .

StarBoard:

I'm pretty sure FErgie isn't serious about catching Barcelona,if that statement of not looking to sign any new players before the transfer window ends is credited to him.
I'm pretty sure FErgie is blind to see the gaping hole in the middle of out midfield.With the current set of players we have,it will be a miracle if that serious deficiency is covered.Or apparently he is still relying on Giggs to d othe biz.
I'm sure that the signings made at the close season won't help us achieve anything tangible this season till we have a midfield general.The only reliable midfielder we have is battling a mystery virus. . .unless Anderson is transformed, we really are in deep shyt. . .

fergie is telling porkies. . . . .how can he not see there's a big crater in the centre of that midfield? i still don't know why you guys believe everything fergie says. . . . he's the master of mind games. the idea is to get inter-milan  to think united have moved on so sneijder's price can come down.
did fergie not say no more transfer last season when he splashed on bebe? berbatov? that man loves his fibs.
there are still 36 days before the window slams shut. . . . .if today is august 26, i would still think fergie will buy someone let alone july.

if anything, this statement actually tells me fergie will snap someone very soon.

@Ruud,
I read the article you posted,I'm thinking along those lines in terms of the mould of midfield player we should get.
I've never been a Sneijder fan,and I still think he won't be a perfect fit and in that sense I agree with the writer.

sneijder will fit perfectly. sneijder will fit in exactly the way van der vaart has turned spurs into title contenders and we all know rafael is the microcosm of wesley sneijder.

mbulela:

"At this moment, I can't see another addition. The type of player we might have been looking for is not available. I am happy with the players I have got at this moment in time."


alarm don blow!!!!!!!

Fergie said it himself that he is in the market for a midfielder to replace Scholes . . . so he knows their is a hole in that midfield.
Being happy with the current players doesn't mean he wont/cant add to it.
Im also happy with the players we have but I want more.
The problem is getting the calibre of player to fill that role . . . there aren't many around to choose from.


I'm sure Fergie will get someone but I dont think it will happen anytime soon . . . probably towards the end of August.
I remember we were chasing Berbatov then, even before the season ended and we didnt cop him until deadline day.

@chamotex,coogar,
David Gill said United would sign three players in the summer.
The last time I checked,we had signed three players. . .
Are you sure about him signing anybody?

StarBoard:

And the Fabregas that you people are bowing down to worship wants to leave and join a club where he can win any type of medal within his first season. . .yet Hargreaves has won the ultimate prize in club football with his single season. . .typical Arsenal fan trying to reduce the achievements of other players when there is a glaring deficiency in his own side. . .the last player to win anything tangible left your squad for City. . .instead you're poking fun at a proven winner with more medals than the entire Arsenal squad. . .

Did I deny he won the CL?

There is a clear reasoning deficit among you scumtwats

What I've said is the truth - as long as you're still playing, you have every chance of winning trophies, not to mention earning big bucks. Once you've stopped playing, it's over.

Of all daft comparisons to make you mention Fab4 - someone who has won the Euro and played the decisive pass to win the WC? Something Hargo can NEVER achieve even if he plays for another 100 years?

I have no beef with him, but it will be rank foolishness to think he is 'happy' because he won the CL ages ago while his mates are still playing with a chance to win, AND making mad money while at it.

If Hargo was satisfied with his magical one season, why is he running up and down in youtube videos trying to secure a club?

When r we replacing da legend guys
We need a midfield maestro in order to compete on all front

debosky:

Did I deny he won the CL?

There is a clear reasoning deficit among you scumtwats

What I've said is the truth - as long as you're still playing, you have every chance of winning trophies, not to mention earning big bucks. Once you've stopped playing, it's over.

Like Eboue,Denilson,Nasri,van Persie,Song,Bendtner,Clichy,Sagna,Almunia,Djorou et al have been playing for up to 6 years with Arsenal and won something. . .chances that that situation improves as we speak are high,abi?Infantile attempt at being philosophical.

debosky:

Of all daft comparisons to make you mention Fab4 - someone who has won the Euro and played the decisive pass to win the WC? Something Hargo can NEVER achieve even if he plays for another 100 years?

You started being daft by mocking Hargreaves who has won 2 CLs,several league titles and would have won more if he wasn't unfortunate with his injuries.Unfortunately,myopic dull.ards like you never see the bigger picture.
Fab 4 laid the winning pass for the World Cup.Therefore that makes him as good as Maradona who laid the same winning pass in '86 and Pele who did same in '70 a abi,even though he hasn't managed a club medal for the better part of his career?
As usual,you deluded folks talk through every orifice in your body.The focus here was CLUB football.Yeah,Fab won the Euros and WC,primarily as a sub.As great as he was,he couldn't make a starting berth his,but  less-fancied Busquets was prefered ahead of him atimes at the same WC.
I'm guessing you're going to extol the virtues of Stehane Guivarc'h ,and Diomede for wining a World Cup medal too.

debosky:

I have no beef with him, but it will be rank foolishness to think he is 'happy' because he won the CL ages ago while his mates are still playing with a chance to win, AND making mad money while at it.  

Extremely dull.
He has two CLs.Enough to make him happy.He can retire fulfiled.Fact.Whatever he does on youtube does not detract from that.Unless you're extremely slow to argue otherwise.
He won the CL last 3 years ago.How can that be called a age?If that is an age,what would you say is 6 years is for someone who hasn't even won any club medal like Fab4?
Stop talking from your rear-end,bullfog-in-chief.

debosky:

If Hargo was satisfied with his magical one season, why is he running up and down in youtube videos trying to secure a club?

Correction.He has had several great seasons with Bayern.Stop this your menstrual flow from your mouth.
As per his securing himself a club,I can't fault him on that one.Folks with his injury record would probably do something similar,myopic one.

StarBoard:

Like Eboue,Denilson,Nasri,van Persie,Song,Bendtner,Clichy,Sagna,Almunia,Djorou et al have been playing for up to 6 years with Arsenal and won something. . .chances that that situation improves as we speak are high,abi?Infantile attempt at being philosophical.

What is philosophical about it? It is a FACT - if you've stopped playing, you CANNOT win any more trophies. As long as you do keep playing, you retain an inherent ability to win trophies.

PS- RVP has won the FA cup and Clichy won the EPL.

Besides, most of those players you've mentioned are in their low to mid 20's, there is every reason to believe their chances of winning will improve as time goes on.

You started being daft by mocking Hargreaves who has won 2 CLs,several league titles and would have won more if he wasn't unfortunate with his injuries.Unfortunately,myopic dull.ards like you never see the bigger picture.

This is what happens when you jump into discussions half cocked - if you opened your eyes to read, you'd have discovered that Sharon started this off by using Arsenal players as a reference. I simply offered a rebuttal.

Fab 4 laid the winning pass for the World Cup.Therefore that makes him as good as Maradona who laid the same winning pass in '86. . .

Stay focused - you have a tendency to ramble incoherently. No one was talking about Maradona - the FACT is Fab4 has won things that Hargo will NEVER win in 10 lifetimes.

As usual,you deluded folks talk through every orifice in your body.The focus here was CLUB football.Yeah,Fab won the Euros and WC,primarily as a sub.As great as he was,he couldn't make a starting berth his,but  less-fancied Busquets was prefered ahead of him atimes at the same WC.

No one mentioned 'clubs'; the focus was winning trophies. If we're talking about trophies then the biggest trophies must clearly come into the discussion.

I'm guessing you're going to extol the virtues of Stehane Guivarc'h ,and Diomede for wining a World Cup medal too.Extremely dull.

Hargo will never win those medals in his life - FACT.

He has two CLs.Enough to make him happy.He can retire fulfiled.Fact.Whatever he does on youtube does not detract from that.Unless you're extremely slow to argue otherwise.

He could have retired NOW and started coaching, but running up and down on youtube shows he's not fulfilled quite yet.

He won the CL last 3 years ago.How can that be called a age?If that is an age,what would you say is 6 years is for someone who hasn't even won any club medal like Fab4?

Again you need to be corrected - Fab4 has won the FA Cup with Arsenal. Fab 4 has won the Euros and the WC since Hargo won a CL - that's enough to tell you it was an age.

Stop talking from your rear-end,bullfog-in-chief.Correction.He has had several great seasons with Bayern.Stop this your menstrual flow from your mouth.

The point remains - if he was satisfied with these magical seasons, why is he still using youtube as a marketing tool?

As per his securing himself a club,I can't fault him on that one.Folks with his injury record would probably do something similar,myopic one.

No - folk who are fulfilled will retire from footie and start another career. It smacks of desperation to be advertising yourself in that manner.

Now learn to recognise the origins of discourse before jumping in midstream.

StarBoard:

@chamotex,coogar,
David Gill said United would sign three players in the summer.
The last time I checked,we had signed three players. . .
Are you sure about him signing anybody?

the jones guy from blackburn is a panic buy. . . . .he was never in the plan before.
there's still one smart acquisition in that midfield - fergie will make his move soon.

coogar:

the jones guy from blackburn[b] is a panic buy[/b]. . . . .he was never in the plan before.
there's still one smart acquisition in that midfield - fergie will make his move soon.

how so?

debosky:

how so?

just like smalling was also a panic buy. . . . it was because arsenal was hovering over him that got united's attention.
in the case of phil jones, kenny dalglish of liverpool wanted his signature. . . .fergie saw an opportunity to snap a young english talent before the '6 + 5' takes effect. . . .besides that, nearly all the departures in united this season are homegrown/english players. . . .o'shea, brown, scholes, neville. . . . .
it's only natural for fergie to beef up his quota of english players with the loss of the old guards. geddit?

@debosky,
No point arguing with you.
Owen Hargreaves can do the circus high-wire act all he can. Fact is, he has achieved what Fab didnt at Arsenal.
which was always the point of the comparison before you brought in the world cup.

debosky:

What is philosophical about it? It is a FACT - if you've stopped playing, you CANNOT win any more trophies. As long as you do keep playing, you retain an inherent ability to win trophies.

PS- RVP has won the FA cup and Clichy won the EPL.

Besides, most of those players you've mentioned are in their low to mid 20's, there is every reason to believe their chances of winning will improve as time goes on.

Are you going to give us the kids excuse again?I thought that had played out.A good number of them have 5 years experience playing in the EPL.
As per your opening salvo,you still haven't answered my question.What are the chances of Arsenal winning any trophies anytime soon?
Why are Nasri and Fab4 wanting out?
Isn't it because they have become tired of being decieved by a manager who is deluded enough to think Arsenal "came close" to winning the title last season?

debosky:

This is what happens when you jump into discussions half cocked - if you opened your eyes to read, you'd have discovered that Sharon started this off by using Arsenal players as a reference. I simply offered a rebuttal.

This is what happens when you sit in front of your computer and type nonsense.What rebuttal?Mocking someone whose career has been derailed by injury isn't being smart,regardless of your belief on that subject.

debosky:

Stay focused - you have a tendency to ramble incoherently. No one was talking about Maradona - the FACT is Fab4 has won things that Hargo will NEVER win in 10 lifetimes.

Stay focused.If laying a pass to win a world cup is an achievement,then you should be sawn into two.I just gave you two players who did same. That shouldn't be so hard for someone who claims to be smart like you to understand.Only a Gunner will bring that point up.

debosky:

No one mentioned 'clubs'; the focus was winning trophies. If we're talking about trophies then the biggest trophies must clearly come into the discussion.

Yeah.Cheap alibi.Like anybody mentioned the World Cup/Euros in the preceeding posts.
The focus was on Owen Hargreaves' career at Man united.Is that so difficult to comprehend,or has United suddenly become a national side?

debosky:

He could have retired NOW and started coaching, but running up and down on youtube shows he's not fulfilled quite yet.

What exactly is your point?
You expect someone who is 30 to just call it a day?
I'm pretty sure if he did just that,you'd be among the first to berate him further.
Besides,as I stated,he has two CL titles.How many do Fab4 and the rest of the trophiless brigade have?
If he retires now,he has trophies Fabregas will never have while he remains at Arsenal.

debosky:

The point remains - if he was satisfied with these magical seasons, why is he still using youtube as a marketing tool?
No - folk who are fulfilled will retire from footie and start another career. It smacks of desperation to be advertising yourself in that manner.

Hilarious.
give me one magical season Fab and the rest of the bottling crew at Arsenal have had.till then,you have no point.
My friend,he might be desperate,but only to show the world he can still compete at the highest possible level.
Winning trophies isn't new to him,I assure you.Stop talking just for the sake of it.

debosky:

Now learn to recognise the origins of discourse before jumping in midstream.

Thank you.
Learn not to poke fun at just about anything in your view,especially the ones who don't deserve it.

debosky:

Again you need to be corrected - Fab4 has won the FA Cup with Arsenal. Fab 4 has won the Euros and the WC since Hargo won a CL - that's enough to tell you it was an age.

So does that make him a better player than Hargo?
So someone like Stephane Guivarch or Bernard Diomede who have done nothing in their club careers but have won the world cup can say he's a better player than Marco van Basten or Ryan Giggs?
If you were smart as you proclaim to be,you'd know international football competition can't be used in the same context as club football.Unfortunately,every Arsenal supporter doesn't know the difference.That's why a picture exists of Arsenal fans having a thanksgiving service because Fab4 won the world cup.

^^ See confuzzled reasoning.

From talking about trophies you move to subjective analysis about who is a 'better' player?

Trophies are the objective measure- regardless of the number of club honours you win, it can never usurp lifting the WC. That's the fact. You may not like it, but that's the reality.

Again I say - stay focused. I haven't said who is a better player or not - but those who have WC medals have attained a higher achievement than 100 league titles - they were part of the best team in the world.

I have every right to take digs at Hargo if Sharon takes a dig at Komrade Eboue. . . .all is fair.

Jamie Redknapp called it a day, even the great Van Basten called it a day, so there's no shame in calling it a day while you're under 30. Putting yourself on youtube makes you fair game for ridicule. - that is my point.

Fab and co haven't won the CL yet, but the time to ask is at the end of their careers - don't ask midway. It's like asking a runner 50m into the 100m race whether he has won the gold medal yet.

As a final point, the WC is very relevant in the context of a player retiring - it is the pinnacle of footballing achievement to win a WC. Everyone wants to reach the pinnacle in their careers and there is nothing greater in footie than the WC. Hargo has not achieved that - regardless of the number of CLs he wins, Cesc is forever above him in the achievement stakes.

debosky:

As a final point, the WC is very relevant in the context of a player retiring - it is the pinnacle of footballing achievement to win a WC. Everyone wants to reach the pinnacle in their careers and there is nothing greater in footie than the WC. Hargo has not achieved that - regardless of the number of CLs he wins, Cesc is forever above him in the achievement stakes.

you made good points until you wrote this senseless paragraph to spoil the broth.

the champions league is actually the new pinnacle in the career of football players. the world cup has lost it's glamour since sometime around 1992 when the champions league was reestablished and turned into a money-spinning competition. the pinnacle of footballing achievement can never be the world cup as it is subjected to the country you represent. . . .

if we follow your gaynner logic, shevchenko + weah + bergkamp + marco van basten + cristiano + kanu + giggs , etc are below cesc fabregas(mostly a substitute player) in achievement stakes? only a stinking buffoon will ptyalise this on a public forum. only yesterday, i bathed you and crowned you. . . .barely 24 hours later, you are back in the mud?

coogar:

the champions league is actually the new pinnacle in the career of football players. the world cup has lost it's glamour since sometime around 1992 when the champions league was reestablished and turned into a money-spinning competition. the pinnacle of footballing achievement can never be the world cup as it is subjected to the country you represent. . . .

It remains the pinnacle - you may follow the CL more, but the WC remains the peak of the sport.

if we follow your gaynner logic, shevchenko + weah + bergkamp + marco van basten + cristiano + kanu + giggs , etc are below cesc fabregas(mostly a substitute player) in achievement stakes? only a stinking buffoon will ptyalise this on a public forum. only yesterday, i bathed you and crowned you. . . .barely 24 hours later, you are back in the mud?

The ultimate achievement for a footballer is lifting the WC - those who have failed to do so have something missing.

Those players might be 'better' than Cesc, but they have failed to achieve what he did - the biggest prize in World Football.

Let's listen to those who should know:

Obviously, winning the World Cup rates as the greatest triumph

For a footballer, there's nothing better than playing in a team that wins the World Cup. Football isn't an individual sport, it's a team game.

http://www.fifa.com/newscentre/news/newsid=513658.html

Despite all of Messi's achievements in the current era, he is still criticized because he has been unable to bring it to bear with his national team. If the best player on the earth at the moment is thus treated, then who the Bleep is Hargo?

debosky:

It remains the pinnacle - you may follow the CL more, but the WC remains the peak of the sport.

that has been demystified years ago. . . .champions league is broader. . . more countries are represented by the players featuring in the champions league. countries who don't even stand a chance of qualifying for the world cup. . . .

The ultimate achievement for a footballer is lifting the WC - those who have failed to do so have something missing.

of course, it is a good thing to win the world cup(i will not disagree with that) but the champions league is the biggest football competition on the planet. from september to may. . . .more teams, more players, more countries represented and quality football on display.

Those players might be 'better' than Cesc, but they have failed to achieve what he did - the biggest prize in World Football.
Let's listen to those who should know:
http://www.fifa.com/newscentre/news/newsid=513658.html


Despite all of Messi's achievements in the current era, he is still criticized because he has been unable to bring it to bear with his national team. If the best player on the earth at the moment is thus treated, then who the Bleep is Hargo?

this is because they expect a player of messi's calibre who plays for argentina(a big footballing nation) to have won it. if messi had come from seychelles or australia. no one would write such nonsense about him missing the biggest prize in football.

look at it this way if you are smart. . . . . .if a player is gifted and blessed with unique football skills, a big club will pay for his services and with his help, that big club will win the champions league. however, no matter how gifted cristiano ronaldo is, he can never play for brazil or spain. if he scores 10000000000 goals per season, he cannot represent any big footballing nation in the world cup as the world cup is all about the country of birth not players' brilliance. if hargo was born in spain, he would have won the world cup - it's as simple as that.

cesc won the world cup because he was born in spain - nothing to do with his brilliance as a footballer and that renders his world cup achievement as invalid.

coogar:

that has been demystified years ago. . . .champions league is broader. . . more countries are represented by the players featuring in the champions league. countries who don't even stand a chance of qualifying for the world cup. . . .

of course, it is a good thing to win the world cup(i will not disagree with that) but the champions league is the biggest football competition on the planet. from september to may. . . .more teams, more players, more countries represented and quality football on display.

Broader appeal yes, more representation maybe, pinnacle? No.

Quality of football may be a valid point, but the World Cup remains the pinnacle. You play in the world cup not for money but for pure glory. It is the peak of footballing achievement.

The frequency and multicultural nature of club football makes it easier to associate with and follow, but it can never replace the glory of national teams competing at the World Cup.

this is because they expect a player of messi's calibre who plays for argentina(a big footballing nation) to have won it. if messi had come from seychelles or australia. no one would write such nonsense about him missing the biggest prize in football.

The fact remains that it is the pinnacle - CL has more publicity these days, but the WC remains the peak. Messi still misses that greatest prize - he needs to get it to cross over into immortality.

Ultimately players who come from such countries are in a sort of 'second class' when it comes to the best - the VERY best are expected to win that Euro/WC at the international level.

That's why you have the Zidanes, Romarios, Ronaldos, Bests and co in one class, and the likes of Weah, Figo and co in another. All are great footballers, but the very best have won the WC.

look at it this way if you are smart. . . . . .if a player is gifted and blessed with unique football skills, a big club will pay for his services and with his help, that big club will win the champions league. however, no matter how gifted cristiano ronaldo is, he can never play for brazil or spain. if he scores 10000000000 goals per season, he cannot represent any big footballing nation in the world cup as the world cup is all about the country of birth not players' brilliance. if hargo was born in spain, he would have won the world cup - it's as simple as that.

Right - but what if you're a blessed and gifted player like Totti who chooses never to leave his hometown club - does failing to win the CL take anything away from his brilliance? I think not.

That's why we must objectively separate a player's abilities and brilliance from winning trophies. The fact is that you can be brilliant and excellent but still not win IF you don't play for a big club.

cesc won the world cup because he was born in spain - nothing to do with his brilliance as a footballer and that renders his world cup achievement as invalid.

Wrong - he delivered the brilliant pass that set up the goal that won the WC. He was instrumental and participated in the most crucial moment in Spanish football history. There are millions of footballers that could've been taken to the WC, but Cesc went because of his quality, and he DELIVERED on that quality at the biggest stage of all.

More talented players like Baggio could not deliver on their brilliance at the crucial moments, and that is something that sets Cesc apart.

debosky:

Quality of football may be a valid point, but the World Cup remains the pinnacle. You play in the world cup not for money but for pure glory. It is the peak of footballing achievement.

what glory are we talking about if the quality of football is substandard?
debosky, argue with me like you do with your supervisior, abeg. . . . .i need you at your sharpest this hour.
stop raising watery points.

The frequency and multicultural nature of club football makes it easier to associate with and follow, but it can never replace the glory of national teams competing at the World Cup.

the frequency and the multicultural is the single most important factor why the champions league is better. . . .the european champions league surpassed the world cup when it was refurbished, more money invested in it with superb coverage. the quality of football is peerless and more teams participate in it than the world cup.

The fact remains that it is the pinnacle - CL has more publicity these days, but the WC remains the peak. Messi still misses that greatest prize - he needs to get it to cross over into immortality.

where did you get this fact? can you show me where it's written the champs league is the pinnacle? of course, messi will miss it because like i said, everyone expects players from brazil, argentina, germany, italy, etc to boss world cup competitions. if you are the best player of any of these countries, it is expected of you to win a world cup. now just imagine messi was born in switzerland for a second, would you expect him to win a world cup?

whoever mentioned nations cup as a missing medal in george weah's portfolio? no one could do that because we all know liberia is never a footballing country. kanu - africa's greatest football ambassador will never be judged for not having won a world cup. no one expects an african country to boss the world cup. if kanu was from brazil, the media would have crucified him for not winning it. the saying goes - to whom much is given(country of birth), much is expected.

Right - but what if you're a blessed and gifted player like Totti who chooses never to leave his hometown club - does failing to win the CL take anything away from his brilliance? I think not.

totti is not in the same class as messi. he's blessed & moderately gifted - not as the same as messi. the moneybags never looked totti's way because there were better players than totti ready to jump at the opportunity of playing for big clubs. kaka, bergkamp, zidane, rivaldo, etc were better "number 10s" than totti and they were all snapped by big clubs. . . .who is totti? if madrid had splashed the same amount they did on zidane on totti, you think roma's president won't put totti on his back and dash to madrid?

That's why we must objectively separate a player's abilities and brilliance from winning trophies. The fact is that you can be brilliant and excellent but still not win IF you don't play for a big club.

if you are brilliant and excellent, the big clubs will always come for you. why has barcelona been flirting with fabregas all these years? they recognise his brilliance and without the ambiguity in cesc's contract with arsenal, he would have probably won the european double with barcelona 2 months ago. there's no way a brilliant and excellent player won't be lured into a big club. money rules the world. there's no loyalty - football players are mercenaries. with all the songs of loyalty wenger has been singing. . . .if man city spreads £100 million on cesc tonight, wenger will sell cesc.

Wrong - he delivered the brilliant pass that set up the goal that won the WC. He was instrumental and participated in the most crucial moment in Spanish football history. There are millions of footballers that could've been taken to the WC, but Cesc went because of his quality, and he DELIVERED on that quality at the biggest stage of all.

so setting up a goal that won the world cup now means cesc was instrumental? if the others were duds, would spain have even reached the final for cesc to set up a goal that won the world cup? na assist you dey praise like this? you are a disgrace to all arsenal fans. . . .the burden still rested on the shoulders of iniesta putting it into the net. . . .iniesta won the world cup, not cesc!!! cesc could have laid 150 of that kind of passes that night with none of them resulting directly to a goal. . . .so where is this achievement you keep talking about? you are a twunt!

More talented players like Baggio could not deliver on their brilliance at the crucial moments, and that is something that sets Cesc apart.

that will be the same roberto baggio that was the star of italia 90 and a star of usa 94. putting teams away like it was getting out of fashion until brazil forced them into the lottery of a penalty shoot-out! it was cesc's brilliance at crucial moments that gifted messi the all important first goal at camp nou last season! crucial moments indeed. . . . .

weirdly, cesc's crucial moments have not win a rusty penny in 6 seasons. . . .
debosky, i didn't want to join in this debate before until the paragraph that set you for the fall.
argue intelligently on this thread. we are tolerant to let you guys come and have fun here. . . . we all do it but i implore y'all to do it intelligently and with credible facts otherwise. . . . . .